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DrREC Wants to Play Poker

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DrREC writes that the concept of “specification” is a tautology, because in determining if something is designed, ID proponents start from the assumption that it is designed.  He gives a poker example to illustrate his point:  “A straight flush is an interesting example – out of 2.6 million poker hands, there are 40 straight flushes.  Which is the specification – getting one of them, or any of them?  Or any hand better than your opponent’s?  Choosing the specification inserts a design assumption – that 1 of the flushes, or all of them are what was ‘specified.’” 

Let’s take DrREC up on his challenge and consider what a design inference might mean in a poker game.  First, we need to consider what a search for “design” in poker even means.  To do this I will define a “fair game” as a game in which the cards are properly randomized (i.e., thoroughly shuffled) and properly dealt to the players in each hand.  In a fair game, by definition, the hand each player receives in each hand is completely random.  On the other hand, we are warranted in making a design inference ONLY if we find evidence that leads us to conclude that a player has received a hand or series of hands that are not random AND the cause of that deviation from randomness is the intentional acts of an agent (commonly called “cheating”). 

Let’s look at the math.  DrREC is correct in at least two respects.  There are approximately 2.6 million five card poker hands (2,598,960 to be precise) and of those hands there are 40 combinations that result in a straight flush (including royal flushes, which some people consider a different hand).  This means that on any given hand the odds of being dealt a straight flush are 40/2,598,960 or 1/64,974.  Now those are pretty long odds, but they are well within the powers of simple chance.  And in fact this is verified by our experience.  We also know that players regularly receive straight flushes in fair games.   

Therefore, using the explanatory filter to make a design inference based upon a player being dealt a single straight flush is not possible.  In other words, if all we know is that one player (let’s call him “Larry”) received one straight flush, we have no warrant to conclude that the null hypothesis (i.e., that it is a fair game) has been falsified.  We must conclude that the best explanation for this event is “chance.” 

But that is not the end of the analysis.  Suppose on the very next hand Larry gets another straight flush.  What are the odds of that happening?  It is important to keep in mind that we are not talking about the odds of the single event.  If we look at each event independently, the odds for each event are the same (i.e., 1/64,974).  Failing to understand this leads to the ruin if many gamblers like a craps player betting on “12” because it is “due.”  On any given roll of the dice the odds of getting “12” are 1/36 whether “12” has not come up in an hour or it came up on the last roll.  

This is not to say, however, that we cannot calculate the odds of a particular series of events.  Take a coin flip for example.  The odds of getting heads is ½ and the odds of getting tails is also ½.  This is true on any given flip.  But are the odds of getting three heads in a row also ½?  The answer is “no.”  The odds of a series of events is simply the odds of each of the events multiplied together.  Thus, the odds of getting three heads in a row is ½ X ½ X ½ = 1/8.  

In the same way we can calculate the odds of Larry getting two straight flushes in a row.  Those odds are  1/64,974 X  1/64,974 = 1/4,221,620, 676 or about 1 in 4.2 trillion.  Those are very very long odds.  Still, however, the odds are not long enough to warrant a design inference.  With millions of poker players in the world, billions of poker hands get played every day.  Therefore, over the course of a not-too-long time, trillions of hands will be played and common sense says that over the course of 4.2 trillion hands there is an even chance there will be two straight flushes in a row.  This too is confirmed by experience.  I searched the internet and it did not take me long to find a story of a game in which a player received two straight flushes in a row in a game everyone believed was fair. 

We’re not done yet.  What if Larry gets 10 straight flushes in a row?  What are the odds?  The odds are 1/64,974^10 or approximately 1/1.34^48.  That’s 1 in 1.34 raised to the power of 48.  If every person who ever lived played one poker hand per second from the big bang until now, we would not expect any of them to receive 10 straight flushes in a row.  Now, perhaps, we are warranted in making a design inference. 

But wait!  This is where DrREC’s objection comes in.  We cannot make a design inference merely because the sequence of hands is highly improbable, because if we take ANY random set of 40 hands, the odds of receiving one of those 40 hands ten times in a row is EXACTLY THE SAME as the odds of receiving a straight flush ten times in a row.  Therefore, we are not warranted in making a design inference. 

Well, if I were playing Larry and he kept getting straight flush after straight flush I would have a strong intuition that someone was cheating.  But is that intuition grounded in anything other than my feelings?  Is there a rigorous way to demonstrate design? 

First, let’s give DrREC his due.  He is correct.  The odds of receiving one of the hands in any random set of 40 hands is exactly the same as the odds of receiving 40 straight flushes in a row.  He is also correct that merely because an event is extraordinarily unlikely, a design inference is not warranted, because the probability of ANY series of ten hands is extremely low and that series of ten hands will probably never happen again from now until the heat death of the universe.  

So is it really true that our design inference is based on nothing but a feeling in our gut?  This is where William Dembski’s work is so important.  Dr. Dembski would say that a design inference is warranted if the event in question displays “complex specific information.”  Here everyone agrees there is “information.”  Within the rules of poker the cards contain a clearly recognizable semiotic system.  Everyone also agrees that our event is complex (i.e., highly improbable).  The only issue is whether the complex information is also “specified.”  Dembski writes:  “The distinction between specified and unspecified information may now be defined as follows: the actualization of a possibility (i.e., information) is specified if independently of the possibility’s actualization, the possibility is identifiable by means of a pattern.”  

In our case we have a pattern.  The pattern is called “ten straight flushes in a row.”  This pattern is not post hoc, because the concept of “straight flush” was clearly known and defined well before the ten hand series was ever dealt.  Therefore, ID theory posits that the ten hand series displays a high degree of complex specified information and therefore the best explanation for its existence is “design by an intelligent agent.”

Comments
My reply was more specific, asked a question of you. You might ask some ID elites where they set statistical impossibility, Mr. Comments are off.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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AsinineDrREC
December 14, 2011
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I will give Barry credit-he really knows how to shift a cross-ex off topic when it is spiraling out of control for him. Observers will note my original posts had nothing to do with probability (note Barry had TOTALLY abandoned fsci, and resorted to simple probabilities), but rather use of a design "specification" in the detection of design. Which Is unanswered. Back to the pulsar question, please.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Wow! I see there is a second post about me. Sadly comments are off-I suppose Barry Prefers to cross examine mute witnesses. If his cases don't get summarily dismissed. I suspect I'll be silenced here soon enough-not that "comments closed" in a thread mocking me isn't enough. Coward. I had responded to the probability question: "As for poker, I already answered-it is improbable. It is, however below the universal probability bound" Some might think 1 in 10^-14 is unlikely but these folks did it: http://articles.sfgate.com/200.....ntasy-five" But lets us add design back in-How would you disconfirm a design inference (that they cheated)? Choose to give them the money, or send them to jail? Defend your answer." I didn't and still don't see a reply, just a slam against the statistical probability bound and the universal probability bound Dr. Dembski uses. Perhaps you'd like to start a thread calling him out, and turn comments off. Frankly, I'd suspect something was amiss, and seek independent confirmation. Gee, that sounds like design detection! Barry (comments are off) Arrington, would you do me the favor of answering any of my questions, as I patiently answer all of your (off topic) ones? Maybe we could start with the pulsar scenario? Or how you detect design with out using a human-designed specification referencing what has been observed in nature?DrREC
December 14, 2011
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John, how many dogs are on your porch? You apparently don't understand how modern scinece works. We can only infer that they were designed if they can look inside their bodies and find even littler motors. But this would lead to an infinite regress, and you ID creationist have no answer for that. :|Upright BiPed
December 14, 2011
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"I strongly suspect, however, that if he were in a poker game and an opponent got 10 straight flushes in a row, he would not react to that as a legitimately random occurrence." Not so Bruce. In comment 6 DrREC insists the player might have just been lucky. At least that's what he says he believes. Like you I find it difficult to believe he is being honest. On the other hand, he is a Darwinian Fundamentalist as blindly devoted to his faith as any West Virginia snake handler ever was. Maybe he is literally incapable of seeing how absurd his statement is.Barry Arrington
December 14, 2011
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The 50/50 distribution seems less likely than other distributions because we attach meaning to it. Consider how you would evaluate probability is someone generated a random sequence and offered a billion dollars to anyone who duplicated it with coin tosses. The most obvious problem with specification is that evolution doesn't deal a whole hand at a time and replace a whole hand at a time. It's more like a game in which you draw a card and discard the least useful card. There are several popular card games like that, the best known is probably Hearts. It's not a great analogy, but it's closer to evolution than poker. One of the good features of this analogy is that there's no specified target. Each play simply asks whether the new card is an improvement or not. The resulting hands will evolve meaning within the context of the game, even though the source of change is random.Petrushka
December 14, 2011
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If we design electric motors, then we find electric motors already in our cells, isn't it fair to say they appear to be designed things? If not, then why not?John D
December 14, 2011
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OK-I think this is getting buried, and I'd like an answer: Pulsars often have a complex behavior. But is it specified? If we took the pattern of pulses we detect as the “design specification”-the pattern we search for, we would conclude yes. Totally and undeniably circular. Prove me wrong.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Is this a riddle?DrREC
December 14, 2011
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"The sequence of DNA for a given organism may be millions of base pairs long, and strictly speaking, the probability of its actual sequence occurring by chance is the same as the probability of any other sequence." Ok. "However, the fact that the sequence can be in some sense specified by its functionality makes it non-random." Bull. It is a living organism, therefore its genome has at least some function. The pattern you used (functionality) to detect design is a post-hoc explanation, dictated by survival. No discernable difference from the counter hypothesis,DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Not really. I was referring to the bio-polymers required for life breaking down without living components building them up. How could random processes build a seeming design if it is the case that they cant get started. And what are the odds that they could overcome this law of chemistry?Mytheos
December 14, 2011
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Dembski's work builds on that of earlier probability theorists' who were wrestling with the problem that, for example, any pattern of heads and tails obtained by tossing a coin 100 times is equally improbable, yet intuitively, a pattern of 50 heads followed by 50 tails is in some sense far less probable than a "normal" random pattern. In order to solve this conundrum, they came up with the idea of specification---if the pattern of heads and tails can be described independently of the actual pattern itself, then it is specified, and specified patterns can be said to be non-random. And note, the pattern does not have to be described ahead of time; the requirement is just that it is capable of being described independently of the actual pattern itself. In other words, a normal "random" pattern can only be described by something equivalent to "the first toss was heads, the second heads, the third tails," and so on, whereas the example above is specified because it can be described as I already have, namely, "50 heads followed by 50 tails". Basically, what Dembski has done is apply this concept to living organisms. The sequence of DNA for a given organism may be millions of base pairs long, and strictly speaking, the probability of its actual sequence occurring by chance is the same as the probability of any other sequence. However, the fact that the sequence can be in some sense specified by its functionality makes it non-random. However, DrREC has a point, in that this whole strategy is an attempt to codify what is at bottom intuitive--a pattern of 50 heads followed by 50 tails is highly improbable in a way that a non-specifiable sequence is not. Or, that the DNA sequence necessary for the existence of the first living cell could have arisen by chance is astronomically improbable. In other words, you can't prove it using probability theory unless you accept the assumptions of that theory, and DrREC doesn't appear to be willing to do that, at least when it comes to living things. (I strongly suspect, however, that if he were in a poker game and an opponent got 10 straight flushes in a row, he would not react to that as a legitimately random occurrence.) So DrRec, if you wish to maintain that it is no more improbable that the DNA sequence of any living cell could have arisen by chance than any other random sequence of nucleotides, nobody can stop you. But likewise no one can stop me from believing that you are not being honest here, either with yourself or with us or both.Bruce David
December 14, 2011
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You're saying that poker is a flawed analogy because it's a designed game. I don't see the point. A hand of cards is presumed to be random, not designed. It's perfectly fair to ask under which circumstances a hand or series of hands are determined to be designed rather than random. You do realize that even a hand of cards or a series of hands can be random or designed whether or not the game or cards were designed, don't you? But fine, forget the cards. Throw a thousand boxes of toothpicks on a floor and see if it produces an accurate English paragraph that multiple unbiased observers can recognize. Still no good, because English is designed and therefore specification itself is specified? Fine. Using toothpicks or any other random generator, randomly generate anything that can be consistently translated into a functional output from any language, even if that language itself comes into existence through that or any other random generation. Do you see where this leads? Random chance does not produce any fcsi, even if every function, real, imagined, or otherwise is available as a target and even if you allow for every possible form that information might take. Going back to poker, the game cannot exist without specifications. It itself is specified to produce a certain playing experience. But as I said, even within that context it's unreasonable to assert that random events can never be distinguished from non-random events. But that is exactly the corner you have painted yourself into.ScottAndrews2
December 14, 2011
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"? Is this a riddle ? Reply 5.1.1.1.1 MytheosDecember 14, 2011 at 8:55 pm Yes. See how you go with it Really?DrREC
December 14, 2011
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"BTW, when I am in trial I absolutely love to cross examine witnesses like you who try to evade questions when everyone in the courtroom knows the answer is obvious. Jurors (in this case lurkers) are never impressed and always punish them." Are they impressed when the cross-examination is irrelevant to the question at hand? My students might be less than impressed with you. Of course, they seek knowledge.... I answered your question-the odds are under the universal probability bound, and even under 1 in 10^50, where some stataticians draw a bound. The player may have been exceptionally lucky. I asked how you would draw a design inference in this case? Can you convict them of cheating? What about the double lottery winners? What allows you to draw a distinction? I can really tell you enjoy your cross-examinations. I can tell you disdain conversation. I've answered all your questions, but you haven't given mine any time or consideration at all. Sadly, in this forum there isn't a judge to silence this witness (yet). So back to the original topic-isn't using a design (specified pattern) to detect a design circular? If not, please answer it, or the pulsar question. I find it quite straightforward.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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I'm deeply sorry if your reasoning is so flawed that I can't decide whether to point out its faulty assumptions or the faulty conclusions drawn from them or the imaginary conditions upon which they all depend. But I don't see why the length of the post prevents you from addressing a single point it contained. Perhaps there are other reasons. I'll summarize it, then. 1) You claim that life as we know it is not a target while observatories search for the "signature of life" - our kind of life. That's not fatal, but it's contradictory. 2) Just because something is not the only possible solution or "target" does not make it automatically accessible to an evolutionary search. Not everything is a sea urchin, but that doesn't help explain sea urchins or anything else. It's merely a distraction from the lack of explanation. 3) You reason that life as we know it is not a "target" because it could have occurred differently. But you don't back up that assumption. You have no evidence that life arose naturally once. How does speculating on the natural occurrence of hypothetical life forms help? 4) If you found one or more new life forms, how would that support the notion that they occur naturally? You seem to think that other "targets" would make your case. They wouldn't. 5) The target seems to small to hit by accident, so you're just imagining more targets and more arrows to make it seem more plausible. Your logic depends on imaginary entities which you don't even bother to imagine in any detail, because they don't serve any purpose beyond manipulating probabilities to support that same logic. There, that's much shorter. And it's numbered.ScottAndrews2
December 14, 2011
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DrREC writes: "As for poker, I already answered-it is improbable. It is, however below the universal probability bound." Both of these things are true. But as I said, any series of 10 hands is equally improbable and both are below the universal probability bound. So you still have not answered the question. Would you make a design inference? BTW, when I am in trial I absolutely love to cross examine witnesses like you who try to evade questions when everyone in the courtroom knows the answer is obvious. Jurors (in this case lurkers) are never impressed and always punish them.Barry Arrington
December 14, 2011
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No one can predict what some designer will design next. Just as with your position no one can predict what mutation will occur next nor what mutation will be kept and spread.Joe
December 14, 2011
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You have no idea how we detect design. Cause and effect- pulsars do not have an artificial signature.Joe
December 14, 2011
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Yes. See how you go with it.Mytheos
December 14, 2011
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? Is this a riddle ?DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Just thinking about what we observe in our laboratory designed "primordial soups". It seems from observation that nature doesn't want to play cards.Mytheos
December 14, 2011
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"Sorry, that’s a bit of a rant." Indeed. Care to give me the cliff notes version? Or ask a singe question?DrREC
December 14, 2011
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What are you getting at?DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Yeesh. Original use of the poker analogy: "A straight flush is an interesting example-out of 2.6 million poker hands, there are 40 straight flushes. Which is the specification-getting one of them, or any of them? Or any hand better than your opponent’s? Choosing the specification inserts a design assumption-that 1 of the flushes, or all of them are what was “specified.”DrREC
December 14, 2011
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Who are you that I have to answer your off-topic questions while you evade my entire point? Design inferences don't really contribute much to our consideration of a designed game, do they? Using a detected pattern-a design to detect design is circular. So, please answer the pulsar question-it actually deals with a design inference. As for poker, I already answered-it is improbable. It is, however below the universal probability bound.DrREC
December 14, 2011
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BTW, this question is rich: "What does the probability of outcomes from a human (designed) game with finite outcomes of known probability have to do with the circularity of detecting design with design?" You, not I, were the one who proposed using the card game as a framework within which to consider the issue.Barry Arrington
December 14, 2011
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DrREC, I will ask the question one more time. If you evade it again, I suppose the answer will be clear enough. If your opponent were dealt ten straight flushes in a row would you make a design inference?Barry Arrington
December 14, 2011
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What if the general nature of cards was that they degrade well before any one can deal them? Then what are the odds?Mytheos
December 14, 2011
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