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Egnor vs. Dillahunty: 11. Is evil in the world simply the absence of good?

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The debate between Christian neurosurgeon Michael Egnor and atheist broadcaster Matt Dillahunty at Theology Unleashed was “Does God Exist?”. But that entails covering many topics.

Egnor argues, as transcribed below, for the widely held traditional view that evil has no creative power of its own but is simply the absence of good:

Arjuna [podcast host]: Question for both. If indeed God is indirectly or even directly responsible for evil/harm — that, if nothing else, he allowed man to mess up — best guess as to why from your perspective.

Michael Egnor: So why does God allow evil?

Matt Dillahunty: It’s easy for me. He didn’t, but go ahead. [01:45:30]

Michael Egnor: The Thomistic understanding of evil is that it’s an absence of good. It’s not a thing that exist independently in itself. It’s a deficit of goodness. God’s creation necessarily fall short of goodness because if he created something perfectly good, He would just be creating himself. So all of creation necessarily has some evil in it because it’s not perfect. It’s not God. I believe that God allows evil to accomplish good through it. [01:46:00]

News, “11. Is evil in the world simply the absence of good?” at Mind Matters News (October 11, 2021)

That good can be difficult to see, but of course, we have a very small horizon that we’re able to see. But I believe that evil is allowed, in part, to allow free human agency — to allow us to act in the image of God in the sense of being active agents with free will and that God allows natural evil as a way of challenging us, as a way of giving us burdens to bear, which builds character. It’s a tough thing. I’m not saying I like it, but I think that is a reasonable explanation for the existence of evil along with God’s existence. [01:47:00]

Note: Evil as the privation (absence) of good is a traditional philosophical position: “In the neo-Platonic tradition, from Plato, through Plotinus, and from there integrated into mainstream Christian and Islamic theology, good is the only true reality, and evil is just the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light, and cold is the absence of heat.” – Stack Exchange


Egnor and Dillahunty also clashed over whether a cause can be outside of time.

Takehome: Many traditional philosophers have held that evil is the absence of good in the same way that darkness is the absence of light. It has no independent existence.


The debate to date:

  1. Debate: Former atheist neurosurgeon vs. former Christian activist. At Theology Unleashed, each gets a chance to state his case and interrogate the other. In a lively debate at Theology Unleashed, neurosurgeon Michael Egnor and broadcaster Matt Dillahunty clash over the existence of God.
  2. A neurosurgeon’s ten proofs for the existence of God. First, how did a medic, formerly an atheist, who cuts open people’s brains for a living, come to be sure there is irrefutable proof for God? In a lively debate at Theology Unleashed, Michael Egnor and Matt Dillahunty clash over “Does God exist?” Egnor starts off.
  3. Atheist Dillahunty spots fallacies in Christian Egnor’s views. “My position is that it’s unacceptable to believe something if the available evidence does not support it.” Dillahunty: We can’t conclusively disprove an unfalsifiable proposition. And that is what most “God” definitions, at least as far as I can tell, are.

4: Egnor now tries to find out what Dillahunty actually knows… About philosophical arguments for the existence of God, as he begins a rebuttal. Atheist Dillahunty appears unable to recall the philosophical arguments for God’s existence, which poses a challenge for Egnor in rebutting him.

  1. Egnor, Dillahunty dispute the basic causes behind the universe. In a peppery exchange, Egnor argues that proofs of God’s existence follow the same logical structure as proofs in science. If the universe begins in a singularity (where Einstein’s equations break down), what lies behind it? Egnor challenges Dillahunty on that.
  2. Is Matt Dillahunty using science as a crutch for his atheism? That’s neurosurgeon Michael Egnor’s accusation in this third part of the debate, which features a continued discussion of singularities, where conventional “laws of nature” break down.
    If the “supernatural” means “outside of conventional nature,” Michael Egnor argues, science routinely accepts it, based on evidence.
  3. Dillahunty asks 2nd oldest question: If God exists, why evil? In the debate between Christian neurosurgeon Michael Egnor and atheist broadcaster Matt Dillahunty, the question of raping a baby was bound to arise.
    Egnor argues that there is an objective moral law against such acts; Dillahunty argues, no, it is all just human judgment.
  4. Does morality really exist? If so, does it come from God? Matt Dillahunty now challenges Michael Egnor: There is no way to know whether a moral doctrine represents any reality apart from belief. Michael Egnor insists that a moral law exists independently of varying opinions. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, that has always been the traditional view worldwide.
  5. Michael Egnor explains why Matt Dillahunty is not an atheist. Not really, anyway, Egnor insists, because he keeps invoking a moral standard that can’t exist if materialist atheism is true. Egnor: I’ve encountered few people who demand as much fairness for themselves as atheists. They don’t live like atheists. They live like theists.

10: Christian Egnor and atheist Dillahunty now take questions… For example, “ What is Mr. Egnor’s best evidence of any god that would make me believe?” Key questions turned on whether abstractions like “right” or wrong “wrong” represent realities. It’s the perennial realism vs. nominalism question again.

You may also wish to read:

Science can and does point to God’s existence. Michael Egnor: Natural science is not at all methodologically naturalist — it routinely points to causes outside of nature. If we are to understand natural effects, we must be open to all kinds of causes, including causes that transcend nature.

The Divine Hiddenness argument against God’s existence = nonsense. God in Himself is immeasurably greater than we are, and He transcends all human knowledge. A God with whom we do not struggle — who is not in some substantial and painful way hidden to us — is not God but is a mere figment of our imagination.

Atheist Claims about logical fallacies often just mean: Shut Up! In the recent debate, Matt Dillahunty accuses theists of “the fallacy of the argument from personal incredulity” because we examine his claims and find them incredible. What atheists fear most is having to explain themselves, and the invocation of fictitious “fallacies” is one of their favorite ways to evade scrutiny.

and

Theists vs. atheists: Which group has the burden of proof? Because Dillahunty refuses to debate me again, I’ll address his claim that atheists have no burden of proof in the debate over God’s existence in this post. Both atheists and theists make positive statements about the nature of the universe. If atheists shun the ensuing burden of proof, it should count against them.

Comments
Sandy, I asked you two questions in response to your previous statements. It would be silly of me to try to answer those questions for you--I have absolutely no idea how you'd answer them! Again, my questions to you from your post in @33 were as follows: 1. What did Jesus say about himself? 2. What did Jesus himself teach us about humanity? Again, no I won't try to answer them for you. You made your assertions, I asked you two questions, and unfortunately you've been evasive for some reason. -QQuerius
November 3, 2021
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Querius The answer will come from the Bible, which includes quotes from Jesus.
Yes please provide those quotes that contradict my comments. Come into light share the truth with us.Sandy
November 3, 2021
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Sandy @51,
Read @35. You will find the answers. If you not agree then you are free to prove me wrong.
What you wrote in @35 doesn't include what Jesus said on the subject. What I asked was what Jesus himself said about himself and what Jesus taught us about humanity. The answer will come from the Bible, which includes quotes from Jesus. -QQuerius
November 2, 2021
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Sandy: My clarification doesn’t help your flawed argument that this world is not the best possible world. This world is the best possible world of fallen free beings. I'm not making an argument. I merely stated an opinion. Which I still retain. At any rate, if you think this current world is the best possible world for testing, no problem. I don't agree or necessarily disagree with that, but at least you clarified your opinion, and have acknowledges that this is not unqualifiedly the best possible world for humans.ram
November 2, 2021
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Ram the best possible testing world. Okay then. Thanks for the clarification.
My clarification doesn't help your flawed argument that this world is not the best possible world. This world is the best possible world of fallen free beings. You can't evade objective conditions to put in place a fairytale world you might imagine.
Querius Actually, I’d like to see your answers to the two questions posed in @34.
Read @35. You will find the answers. If you not agree then you are free to prove me wrong.Sandy
November 1, 2021
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Sandy @46,
Because you will be proven wrong and you don’t want that.
No. Actually, I'd like to see your answers to the two questions posed in @34. -QQuerius
November 1, 2021
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Sandy, the best possible testing world. Okay then. Thanks for the clarification. --Ramram
October 31, 2021
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@Ram Heaven is the prize while this world is the contest. You can't compare test with the prize (and tell me :"hey prize is better than test "),because there is no prize without passing the test. This is the best possible testing world without this there is no chance to go to heaven.Sandy
October 31, 2021
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Sandy @40: You think of a world that is filled by robots that are programmed to do “good” but that world is not a world of free humans. This world is better than any fairytale world full of automatons The Bible says eventually that those "in Christ" will exist on a new world much better than this. Nobody is an automaton. It's those people who exercised their free will to join themselves to Christ. So again, there is a much better world than this current one for some humans in the future. Which invalidates any notion that "this current world is the best world possible for humans." It isn't. Not if you believe the Bible. PS: Do not compare spiritual world with our material world. Fair enough. But you ignored question #2: is the Creator going to provide a better world than the current one for those who inherit salvation thru faith in Jesus Christ? --Ramram
October 30, 2021
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Why should I?
:) Because you will be proven wrong and you don't want that.Sandy
October 30, 2021
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Sandy @42,
Well …tell us your ( most certainly wrong )understanding about humanity that Jesus “taught” you.
Why should I? You're ducking the question about your claims in @34:
Wrong again. Christ as a God deified the humanity this means that Christ brought much more than Adam lost. You have a childish view of reality. The reality is not like a hollywood movie that can have 100 different scripts.
To which I asked you:
I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. What did Jesus say about himself? What did Jesus teach us about humanity?
-QQuerius
October 30, 2021
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Sandy won’t answer the question
Are there fallen angels? PS: Do not compare spiritual world with our material world.Sandy
October 29, 2021
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Sandy won't answer the question: do the angels live in a better world than this? Nor will Sandy answer the question: is the Creator going to provide a better world than the current one for those who inherit salvation thru faith in Jesus Christ? --Ramram
October 29, 2021
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@Querius Well ...tell us your ( most certainly wrong )understanding about humanity that Jesus "taught" you.Sandy
October 27, 2021
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Sandy @35, Once again, what did Jesus himself (not St. Athanasios the Great or John of Damascus) say about himself? What did Jesus himself teach us about humanity? -QQuerius
October 27, 2021
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and witnessed small children forced into prostitution and all kinds of abuse just to eat.
You think of a world that is filled by robots that are programmed to do "good" but that world is not a world of free humans. This world is better than any fairytale world full of automatons . This is the risk assumed by God of giving free will and reason. I guess you didn't think of a world in what Hitler would have won the war. You would have speak german now and you would be alive only if you were arian.;)Sandy
October 27, 2021
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Sandy: You have a childish view of reality. Well, I beg to differ. You haven't been around. Sandy, I've been to Brazil several times, and witnessed small children forced into prostitution and all kinds of abuse just to eat. If you think our current world is the "best of possible worlds", I feel sorry for you. You are either a sociopath or an idiot. --Ramram
October 26, 2021
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Sandy @37,
Read St. Athanasios the Great, John of Damascus .
Yes, I certainly will. But my question to you was what were the actual teachings of Jesus on who he was and on humanity. Thank you, -QQuerius
October 26, 2021
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Read St. Athanasios the Great, John of Damascus .Sandy
October 25, 2021
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Ok, Sandy. But what were the actual teachings of Jesus on the subject? -QQuerius
October 25, 2021
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Son of God unifying divinity and humanity in person of Jesus Christ made humanity indestructible to any other damages from devil.Sandy
October 25, 2021
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Sandy,
Wrong again. Christ as a God deified the humanity this means that Christ brought much more than Adam lost. You have a childish view of reality. The reality is not like a hollywood movie that can have 100 different scripts.
Yikes! I'm trying to understand what you're saying. What did Jesus say about himself? What did Jesus teach us about humanity? -QQuerius
October 25, 2021
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God cursed the planet after Adam and Eve rebelled. So according to that, the current state of earth is not the best possible world,
Wrong again. Christ as a God deified the humanity this means that Christ brought much more than Adam lost. You have a childish view of reality. The reality is not like a hollywood movie that can have 100 different scripts.Sandy
October 25, 2021
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Sandy, Jews and Christians believe the earth became cursed. Genesis 3:17,18 indicate that God cursed the planet after Adam and Eve rebelled. So according to that, the current state of earth is not the best possible world, and that eventually God is going to make the planet much better than it is. (Rev 21.) So for Christians, at least, this planet is not the "best possible world." It's a cursed world. There's a much better one coming. Also, do angels have free will? --Ramram
October 25, 2021
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Sandy, Reminds me of a book I read in college titled, "Your God is too Small" by J.B. Phillips. -QQuerius
October 25, 2021
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You acknowledge then that this world isn’t the best possible world.
This world is the best possible world with free human beings because: 1.God doesn't joke. 2.Free will have Real consequences in this world. 3.You jave no arguments and knowledge to judge how would be a better world. 4. What are the logical consequences regarding to God if this is not the best possible world? (Maybe your god is too weak?=false god) 5. What are the logical consequences regarding to you if your god is so weak then you are weaker but if you are weak and understand better than your god how should be built a better world then you must be god. HAHAHA! You should be ashamed to create such a weak world.Sandy
October 24, 2021
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seversky:
Egnor seems to be trying to impose his own narrow view of what constitutes “natural”.
Nice projection.
To a naturalist like myself, Nature refers to all that exists, There is nothing “supernatural” beyond, not even God.
That is not how natural is defined, though
Egnor just wants a supernatural domain as somewhere he can store his God and anything else he wants to hide away from the prying eyes of human science.
And you are also ignorant of supernatural.
What is the difference between a God who hides himself from us and one who doesn’t exist?
God is revealed in God's Creation.
Atheists are quite happy to defend their position.
And yet they can't. Strange, that.ET
October 24, 2021
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Seversky and JVL, If you're serious about your questions regarding God and faith, let me respectfully urge you to consider a wonderful presentation, transparent and gutsy, on this subject: https://youtu.be/LUNFT6buDaE?t=3244 -QQuerius
October 24, 2021
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Seversky @19, What do you care? You're just a troll. And everyone knows it. If you were a real philosopher, interested in genuine dialog, you would have much more intelligent things to say. But you never do. You just seem like a butt-hurt sophmorist who likes to troll "believers." Well, okay. I hope you're getting what you crave out of your participation here. Blessings on Truth seekers here and everywhere. --Ramram
October 24, 2021
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@seversky The knowledge of good and evil, refers to conceiving of making a choice, in terms of using the facts of what is good and evil, to evaluate the options with. So then choice becomes to be conceived as like an automated chesscomputer calculating a move, instead of it being spontaneous. The result of the choice becomes a forced consequence of the values of good and evil that are used to evaluate the options with. Which means both the human spirit, people's emotions, as well as God the holy spirit, are thrown out from choices.mohammadnursyamsu
October 23, 2021
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