Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community
Humpty

Darwinian Debating Device #9: “The Humpty Dumpty Gambit”

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The essence of the Humpty Dumpty gambit, of which Elizabeth Liddle is a master, is treating words as if they are infinitely malleable.

 

In my Demands of Charity post Elizabeth Liddle writes: “My beef is not against inferring design; it’s against inferring intentional design from the pattern exhibited by an object alone and refusing to investigate what other processes, including non-intentional “design” process are also candidates.”

In one sentence Ms. Liddle has used a patently absurd oxymoron and grossly misrepresented the ID project. Let’s see how:


Ms. Liddle refers to “non-intentional ‘design'” without seeming to realize that the phrase is a self referentially incoherent oxymoron. The World English Dictionary defines “design” as follows:

Verb
1. to work out the structure or form of (something), as by making a sketch, outline, pattern, or plans
2. to plan and make (something) artistically or skillfully
3. ( tr ) to form or conceive in the mind; invent
4. ( tr ) to intend, as for a specific purpose; plan
5. obsolete ( tr ) to mark out or designate Noun
6. a plan, sketch, or preliminary drawing
7. the arrangement or pattern of elements or features of an artistic or decorative work: the design of the desk is Chippendale
8. a finished artistic or decorative creation
9. the art of designing 10. a plan, scheme, or project 11. an end aimed at or planned for; intention; purpose
12. ( often plural; often foll by on or against ) a plot or hostile scheme, often to gain possession of (something) by illegitimate means
13. a coherent or purposeful pattern, as opposed to chaos: God’s design appears in nature 14. philosophy argument from design another name for teleological argument

What is common to all of these senses of the word “design”? You guessed it: intentionality. Thus, the phrase “unintentional design” is akin to “red blueness” or, perhaps better, “correct error.”

Elizabeth, no amount of scare quotes around the word design will save the phrase. It is a linguistic nullity.

Elizabeth might respond, that with her scare quotes she can make the word mean anything she wants it to mean, even its opposite. This, of course, is the Humpty Dumpty approach to language.

[Humpty Dumpty says to Alice]: ‘And only one for birthday presents, you know. There’s glory for you!’
‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”‘
‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”,’ Alice objected.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll

Here is how Ms. Liddle channels Humpty:

Elizabeth said, ‘Mindless forces with no end in mind are responsible for the design of all living things.’
‘I don’t know what you mean by ‘design’ in that sentence,’ Barry said.
Elizabeth smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “non-intentional design!”‘
‘But’ “non-intentional design” is an oxymoron, because intentionality is inherent in the word design,’ Barry objected.
‘When I use a word, ‘Elizabeth said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less, and if I want to use “design” to describe a process that has no intentionality, who is to stop me?’
‘The question is,’ said Barry, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Elizabeth, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

Yesterday, Ms. Liddle told me that if I received a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100, I would have no warrant to be certain the signal was designed by an intelligent agent. Today, she tells me that “non-intentional design” is a meaningful concept. Ms. Liddle, thank you for your contributions to this blog on behalf of our opponents.

Finally, a word about the how Ms. Liddle has grossly misrepresented the ID project. She says the ID community refuses “to investigate what other processes,” that might account for the data. Rubbish. I would direct Ms. Liddle to The Edge of Evolution by Michael Behe, in which Dr. Behe explores the limits of Darwinian evolution. To sum up the book in a sentence: “Researches observed in the lab literally trillions of reproductive events by bacteria under intense selection pressure. The bacteria did not develop any significant new biological information.”

Ms. Liddle: News flash. ID proponents have not refused to investigation Darwinian processes. In fact, ID proponents have investigated these processes thoroughly and found that they are indeed responsible for minor variations in phenotype and genotype. These same investigations have revealed, however, that Darwinian processes, even over trillions of reproductive events, do not result in major changes in phenotype and genotype as Darwinists claim.

Comments
I think Elizabeth is confusing forms of the word "intention" in her distinction between "intelligence" and "intention". She said: "Dembski has produced an operational definition of “intelligence” that does not require “intention” which he specifically excludes as a “question of science”." Whether or not intention was involved is a question science can reasonably answer (and does so all the time, such as with forensics). What that intention specifically was isn't a question science can answer. A scientific investigator can establish that a crime was committed, as opposed to a chance or natural occurrence, but the motivation is something left up to another kind of investigatory procedure to uncover. Intelligence necessarily implicates intentional capacity. While we may not know what specific end-goal (intention) was in the mind of the designer, we know that a goal (intention) of some sort was in the mind of the designer.Meleagar
August 14, 2011
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Elizabeth writes: "However, I am still very suspicious of the math!" Then you should be apoplectic at the lack of any supporting math whatsoever that would support the asserted "scientific fact" that RM & NS is up to the statistical task of doing what it is claimed to have done in the unobservable past - namely, generate functional macroevolutionary features like winged flight or binocular vision from scratch, and the lack of supporting math of any sort for any proposed origin of biological information hypothesis. If there is no math whatsoever presented in favor of such an idea, and published, peer-reviewed math that contradicts that such assertions, it seems to me selectively hyperskeptical to be suspicious of the math on one side but not even require any math from the other. At least ID theorists provide formulas and statistical analysis based on real-world phenomena and research that can be challenged and criticized; where is the math, and the formulas, that support RM & NS as generator and sorter of that which they are claimed as fact to have produced?Meleagar
August 14, 2011
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kf:
I must note as well that the tone of your cited remarks shows an evident hostility to “an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God.”
You mistake me completely. I have absolutely no hostility to "omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God". I worshipped one for 50 years, and still miss her. My point was that that is not the putative God that follows from the ID hypothesis, and the one that does, sure I'm hostile to, or would be if I was convinced by the ID hypothesis. As I'm not, there's nothing to be hostile to. If you could demonstrate that the putative designer was not only likely but also omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient, I'd be only too pleased. But I see no way in which you can do that, even if I grant the existence of the putative designer.Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle, On the FSCI in the suggested monolith, kindly cf 27 above from last night, which does not depend on frequentist estimates, but does rely on engineering knowledge of what an optical flat is going to be like -- and actually the specs are a bit loose for that. There is a reason why that sort of stuff is so expensive. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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BA: Thanks.kairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Re: And, frankly, what fingerprints there are of a designer on life do not look to me like the fingerprints of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God. This is a point I’ve brought up a number of times, and so far nobody seems to have engaged it. This is astonishing, in light of what has been going on for months now. Sadly astonishing, as you seem to have conveniently forgotten the actual facts of the matter. And, yes, I have to use a strong word, "conveniently." Let's go over this one more time, for record. First, have you ever read TMLO, and in particular, the epilogue? As, you have been asked to do, any number of times? If you do so, you will see that there is -- from the very first technical ID book [1984!], a consistent confinement of scientific reasoning to that which is based on empirical warrant from observable signs, on inference to best explanation for origins matters. In particular, the evidence is able to support an inference to design as process on a scientific basis, but onward discussion of identity of designers is a worldviews level project; i.e. a philosophical exercise. That is plainly a legitimate exercise -- and one far more readily supported by the cosmological side of design theory [that's why there is that joke about astrophysicists rushing out from their observatories, to get baptised into the First Church of God, Big Bang during the lunch hour meditation on monkeying with the physics fine tuning led by agnostic Sir Fred Hoyle . . . ] -- but that is an exercise that is far broader than the proper focus of exploring the empirical evidence and best explanation on the signs we observe in cell based life and its traces in the fossil record. I must note as well that the tone of your cited remarks shows an evident hostility to "an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God." I suggest that you reflect on whether that evident hostility could be blinding you to the actual balance of the evidence. Or, in the words of Jesus to some of the people of Judaea in his day:
Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word . . . 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Now, let us turn back to focus on the scientific question. The summary of the matter on OOL is much as I have repeatedly pointed out to you over months, and WHICH YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY IGNORED OR BRUSHED ASIDE. Namely, that the origin of life on earth based on Carbon chemistry in the cell, through molecular nanomachines appears -- on the work of Venter et al -- can be explained on a nanotech lab a few technology generations beyond where Venter is now. That is one context in which the issue of inference to a designer within or beyond the cosmos is a worldviews level inference, not an exercise of science. Which does not render the exercise illegitimate, it simply recognises that it goes beyond what science can properly do. We all have a privilege, a right and even a duty to ask and seek answers for such big questions. Back to science. What the science on signs of life in living forms warrants is the inference to design as process: That Tweredun. Whodunit, is a much broader forensic-historical exercise on all sorts of issues and clues, or even a personal relationship exercise based on actual answered prayer or the like. If I were embarking on the latter, I would pause to note that the evident design of life fits into a cosmos where we see that from key foundational parameters and laws, it is fine tuned for life, and also credibly had a beginning. That is the only observed cosmos we have, is contingent. It is not self-explanatory, it did not suddenly emerge form a genuine nothing, it depends on necessary causal factors that are external to it. Taking the two together, and even through a multiverse speculation, we are looking at design by a powerful, intelligent, purposeful architect of the cosmos who is a necessary being, one that evidently had life in mind from the outset. That is not yet an omnipotent, omniscient Creator, but it is consistent with it. As to omnibenevolent, we find ourselves objectively bound by ought, starting with our sense that we have rights and OUGHT to be treated fairly. Those who object to evils and to evil, imply much the same. Notice, we are here looking at ethics, a non-scientific, worldviews level topic. Now, too, we observe that Hume's guillotine points to an IS-OUGHT gap. That gap must be bridged somehow, if we are to have a comprehensive, credible worldview. The only way to do that is to have a foundational is in a worldview that answers to the empirical evidence as above, and at the same time provides an IS capable of carrying the weight of OUGHT. Where, for sure, evolutionary materialism cannot do so, as matter, energy, space, time and blind forces of chance and necessity plainly have in them no ises that can lead to a real ought, only to prudence or "what can I get away with." This extends to any monist system, including pantheistic ones. Given the Eutyphro dilemma that challenges any claimed root of being which does not inherently enfold such a foundation for ought, the only credible worldview foundational IS that can bear OUGHT -- notice the summary inference to best explanation across major live options -- is an inherently good Creator God who would make a cosmos in which his character is stamped. Such a cosmos could then have in it a class of beings that in order to be capable of virtue, thought he power to choose and to love, must have significant freedom of choice. Such creatures will be morally governed, i.e. they will fall under the power of ought, stamped in in conscience etc. (And that BTW is the answer to the so-called problem of evil too, there is demonstrably no contradiction involved in such an inherently good creator opening up a world in which love is possible.) I suggest you read the introductory discussion here, and that here too. Do, read both in context. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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vjtorley:
Elizabeth I wrote you a comment on the “Demands of Charity” thread. I don’t know whether you noticed it, but here it is: https://uncommondescent.com.....ent-395732 I think it will address your comments on inferring design from a monolith or a series of prime numbers.
Thank you for this :) Very ingenious! I have to confess I was unaware of the specifications of the fictional monolith in question. However, I am still very suspicious of the math! Trying to use frequentist statistics when we have no data on the population from which our sample is drawn, and when our ways of estimating it depend on our priors, is fundamentally fallacious IMO, and this fallacy underlies the whole CSI concept. Again IMO :) Which is not to say that there isn't a residual IB case, but I think CSI is a Very Bad Argument (as I said in response to your quiz). But in any case, it's a bit of a quibble, because at no time have I said that I would not entertain Alien Intelligence as a viable - possibly the most viable - hypothesis for the provenance of the monoliths, ditto the prime number signal. But that's because of a Bayesian reasoning process, not a frequentist one!
Regarding your complaints on the characteristics/qualities of the Designer, I’ll be putting up a comment soon on objections to fine-tuning that should touch on some of the matters you raise.
Thanks :)
Regarding the relation between intentions and intelligence: in his book “The Design of Life”, Professor Dembski defines intelligence in terms of the ability to adapt means to ends. Anyone who does that obvious has an end, and therefore has the intention of reaching that end. However, what that end is may be difficult to discern. If you found a monolith on the moon, you’d probably infer (or at least consider) design, but you would probably be in the dark regarding the designer’s intentions.
Interestingly, I woke up this morning with an epiphany on this issue :) It suddenly dawned on me where at least one of the disconnects might be (and there are certainly disconnects - why else would each of two groups of reasonably intelligent, reasonably thoughtful people think the other group is dishonest/deluded/stupid?). "Intention" implies a goal. Because evolution looks "goal directed" it is natural to infer an "intentional" agent even if we don't know what the goal is (the monolith and the prime number signal are a bit different in this regard, but interestingly different - I'll leave that aside for now), or at least the ultimate goal - we can reasonably infer that the "goal" of a flagellum is to help the bacterium get around a child's gut more effectively, and the "goal" of a chloroquine resistance mechanism in the malaria parasite is to enable it to continue to cause disease in the clever humans how figured out how to prevent it). The disconnect, I think, when it comes to conceptualising an undirected process (i.e. one with no goal set by an intentional agent ) that nonetheless has a direction. How can an undirected process have a direction? Which is not, as Barry claimed in the case of my phrase "un-intentional design", an oxymoron, although it may seem so at first glance. For example, we do not (as sophisticated humans) consider a stone "directed" by some agent when it falls to the ground, even though we can predict with confidence that it will go down not up. However, we can also predict, with confidence, that if a population of self-replicators replicates with heritable variation in the ability to thrive in their current environment, that population will "move" towards a state in which most of its members are well adapted to thrive in that environment. There is no "pre-set goal" but what there is, is an attractor basin, that acts somewhat like a centre of gravity in that the population will "flow" towards the "bottom" of the basin (or, in the more common, but confusing, imagery of population genetics, will "climb" towards "fitness" peaks). In other words the process, though undirected,has direction. Like a puddle of water overflowing down an earthy bank, it has no "pre-set" goal, and might one of many routes, but it will always flow down (Incidentally this lies at the heart of the rebuttal of the 2LoT arguments against Darwinian evolution - adaptation is a lower energy state, not a higher one.) Well, I don't know if that helps, but it did occur to me that the notion that is something is "unintentional" it must be "random" (apart from the contribution from "Necessity") is a bit of a road-block in these discussions. The system of contingencies that means that populations must adapt or die is as much a force of "Necessity" as gravity. I suggest. The googly is that the attractor basin is functionality,and we tend to associate functionality with "intention" - we assign functions to other things intentionally. That is where the concept of teleonomy is important: something that facilitates the persistence of the thing (or arrangement of things) of which it is a part can also be said to "function" as a "persistence promoter", even though no external intentional agent is assigning the function.
Regarding the cosmos as a whole, I think it’s fair to say that it was designed to support life. That much is reasonably certain, given the fine-tuning argument (I hope you’ve read Collins’ lengthy essay by now).
Sorry, I didn't finish it. I will at some point. I wasn't convinced by what I did read, but I'll hear him out.
Regarding DNA, it appears that the choice of code is either optimal or very close to optimal.
In what sense? In fact I'm not sure what you mean by "choice of code" - can you explain?
We are therefore justified in inferring the existence of a life-friendly Designer – which is not the same as a Designer who is friendly towards each and every living thing. Still, that’s a substantive conclusion in itself.
Well, if you could spell this out, I'd appreciate it :) Thanks LizzieElizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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kf, I don't know if you have seen this paper before, but if not I am sure you will enjoy it: Evolutionary Computation: A Perpetual Motion Machine for Design Information? By Robert J. Marks II Final Thoughts: Search spaces require structuring for search algorithms to be viable. This includes evolutionary search for a targeted design goal. The added structure information needs to be implicitly infused into the search space and is used to guide the process to a desired result. The target can be specific, as is the case with a precisely identified phrase; or it can be general, such as meaningful phrases that will pass, say, a spelling and grammar check. In any case, there is yet no perpetual motion machine for the design of information arising from evolutionary computation. http://www.idnet.com.au/files/pdf/Evolutionary%20Computer%20Simulations.pdfbornagain77
August 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Pardon a bit of a markup on interleaved points: ____________ >> To explain life, firstly OOL researchers have to figure out how self-replicating molecules might have emerged from non-self-replicating ones. a --> There are molecules that will replicate themselves once we have a suitable medium with the right sort of molecules present, but that is precisely what we do not see in observed life forms: step by step, code-based, information controlled manufacture of molecules that are then shipped to the right place, in a context of a SYSTEM that replicates itself. b --> Similarly, we are failing to address the obvious issues of a real-life prebiotic environment as TMLO did in great details. [Have you read this yet, cf link to online PDF here.] c --> there are challenges to building up complex long chain endothermically formed molecules, as opposed to the tendency of an aqueous medium with various ions present to simply hydrolyse and break down such long chain molecules, issues on how to get to homochirality [crucial for key-lock fitting], and the problem of relative non-reactivity except under controlled circumstances such that interfering cross-reactions would tend to prevail, leading to a random tar not a functionally organised cell. These are likely to be polymers, for various reasons. d --> Natural polymerisation out side the cell tends to form tars not useful functionally organised molecular nanomachines, and you are here going up against huge configuration space challenges to form the right molecules, then to organise them correctly. Secondly, the have to work out why polymers with particular arrangements of their monomers self-replicate better than others. e --> Nope, you need to explain first how you get the chemical context in which self replication will happen under reasonable natural -- non-purified, non-controlled, non-concentrated conditions where Le Chetalier's principle of relief of constraints will drive the system to the chain reactions you desire. Once you’ve done that, f --> A back-handed way of acknowledging that this has not been done, i.e step one has not been bridged. The only empirically supported contexts for the above are the living cell and/or the intelligently organised lab reaction. you’ve got your digital code – you’ve got an information-bearing polymer, g --> Unjustified leap here. A code is a symbolic system by which arbitrary, conventional configuration is informationally mapped to assigned meaning. The only empirically supported basis for that is intelligent design. in the Webster’s definition sense of an arrangement of something that has specific effects, in this case, effects that increase the self-replication capacity of the polymer. h --> A twisting of the meaning and context of the dictionary definition. Let's cite Merriam- Webster online:
Definition of INFORMATION 1: the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence 2a (1) : knowledge obtained from investigation, study, or instruction (2) : intelligence, news (3) : facts, data b : the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects c (1) : a signal or character (as in a communication system or computer) representing data (2) : something (as a message, experimental data, or a picture) which justifies change in a construct (as a plan or theory) that represents physical or mental experience or another construct d : a quantitative measure of the content of information; specifically : a numerical quantity that measures the uncertainty in the outcome of an experiment to be performed
i --> It is quite evident that mere autocatalysis or the like is worlds apart from symbolic information that say in the case of mRNA, serves as the instructional tape that, step- by- step -- i.e. ALGORITHMICALLY -- guides the assembly of a protein by sequencing amino acids, according to a defined, identified table of three-letter codes that was elucidated by investigators decades ago. j --> Let us remind ourselves through a simple video animation, here. Sure there are lots and lots of things we don’t know, k --> But the inference that digital codes are a highly reliable artifact and sign of design, and embedded code based algorithm-executing systems are similarly artifacts of design is NOT based on what we do not know; instead it is an inference to best explanation on what we DO empirically and analytically know about such things. and lots of lots of things we will never know, but that, in itself, is no basis for inferring Intelligent Design, l --> STRAWMAN. You have here twisted the design inference from being an inference to best empirically anchored explanation on tested and reliable signs of intelligent action, to an inference on what we do not know. m --> What we have no prospect of knowing is the actual, directly observed state of the deep past of origins. Origins science therefore is inherently historical in character. n --> So, we infer on best explanation across reasonable alternative possibilities [without a priori censorship!] the plausible state of the past from well-tested patterns in the present and characteristic signs of those patterns. o --> What is happening is that we are finding our best candidates for patterns in the world of digital technology, a context of engineering, not mere chemistry. especially when we have plausible candidates-in-principle. p --> this is little more than an appeal to the censoring a priori that explanations must only be on patterns acceptable to materialists. q --> In fact, as I linked on in the just previous post, we do NOT have plausible candidates in either the genes first no the metabolism first schools of thought. r --> But if materialism is smuggled in the back door and imposed as a censoring a priori, this is what results, per Lewontin:
. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [NYRB, 1997. If you think the immediately following words JUSTIFY the above, kindly cf the onward notes in the just linked.]
s --> Nothing like a cluster of begged questions to make something seem more plausible than it is in the cold light of day.>> ____________ It seems fairly obvious that an established orthodoxy premised on a patently unjustifiable a priori of imposed materialism that then makes begged questions seem "self-evident" is falling apart. And the persistently unmet OOL challenge is a big part of this. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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You cannot calculate the probability of an object of which you possess only one exemplar, unless of course it has a complex (in the lay sense) pattern, in which case you might assume that a set of other patterns with similar frequencies of the components but different arrangements is the population from which this sequence was drawn.
I'd dispute this (as a working statistician). Rather than working with the pattern, one can work with the mechanism, and draw up a model of that to calculate the probability. I'm not sure this helps ID, though. In the black obelisk example, one would need to build a model of an alien designer (this is what we intuitively do, I think). In the case of the flagellum, one would need to model the Intelligent Designer. How can that be done?Heinrich
August 14, 2011
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Lizzie, go back and read my The Demands of Charity post. I answered the question you raised in [41]. VJ may well tackle the questions you raise. He is very good at it, but he will be doing metaphysics, not science when he does so. This is by no means a criticism. The questions you raise are important questions. Perhaps the most important questions. But they are not addressed by ID. You ask, "why the heck not?" That's like asking why one can't measure love with a ruler or determine the temperature of mercy with a thermometer. The means are not suited to accomplish the end, and to point that out is not, as you charge, a "cop out."Barry Arrington
August 14, 2011
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Barry:
Lizzie writes: “And, frankly, what fingerprints there are of a designer on life do not look to me like the fingerprints of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God. This is a point I’ve brought up a number of times, and so far nobody seems to have engaged it.” Barry responds: Because as we have explained dozens if not hundreds of times on this site, ID does not address the issue.
Barry, to respond to the question "why does nobody address the issue?" with because "ID does not address the issue? is not an "explanation" at all. It is simply a refusal It is also a rather absurd refusal, and I'm very pleased to hear that vjtorley is in fact, prepared to address it. I look forward to his response. It is also, I have to say, a rather irresponsible refusal. If you think that ID has established, conclusively, that the living things were Intelligently Designed (and of course I disagree that you have, but put that aside for now) and have no further interest in pursuing the identity or characterstics of the designer, then why do ID proponents repeatedly imply that the designer is the God of the Christian religion? The God of John 1, in fact, according to Dembski, the Logos? Where is your curiousity - nay your dismay - at the evidence that if life was Designed, the character of the designer bears little if any resemblance to the God portrayed in John's Gospel? Indeed, Cthulhu would be nearer the mark. Why, if the ID inferred from biology, is the creator God, are you not rewriting Christian theology in the light of your new-found knowledge about the real character of the God we thought we knew? Dembski has had a go, of course, concluding apparently, that the Design was supposed to be better than that, but that because two people, at one time, broke a somewhat unreasonable taboo, the designer took out his anger on his entire Design, including all those creatures who were completely blameless. At least it was an attempt. Not, I have to say, a persuasive one. Merely to respond that "ID does not address the issue" is, well, a cop out. To put it mildly! Indeed it doesn't! Why the heck not?!!!Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Berlinsky:
At the conclusion of a long essay, it is customary to summarize what has been learned. In the present case, I suspect it would be more prudent to recall how much has been assumed: First, that the pre-biotic atmosphere was chemically reductive; second, that nature found a way to synthesize cytosine; third, that nature also found a way to synthesize ribose; fourth, that nature found the means to assemble nucleotides into polynucleotides; fifth, that nature discovered a self-replicating molecule; and sixth, that having done all that, nature promoted a self-replicating molecule into a full system of coded chemistry. These assumptions are not only vexing but progressively so, ending in a serious impediment to thought. That, indeed, may be why a number of biologists have lately reported a weakening of their commitment to the RNA world altogether, and a desire to look elsewhere for an explanation of the emergence of life on earth. "It's part of a quiet paradigm revolution going on in biology," the biophysicist Harold Morowitz put it in an interview in New Scientist, "in which the radical randomness of Darwinism is being replaced by a much more scientific law-regulated emergence of life." Morowitz is not a man inclined to wait for the details to accumulate before reorganizing the vista of modern biology. In a series of articles, he has argued for a global vision based on the biochemistry of living systems rather than on their molecular biology or on Darwinian adaptations. His vision treats the living system as more fundamental than its particular species, claiming to represent the "universal and deterministic features of any system of chemical interactions based on a water-covered but rocky planet such as ours." This view of things - metabolism first, as it is often called - is not only intriguing in itself but is enhanced by a firm commitment to chemistry and to "the model for what science should be." It has been argued with great vigor by Morowitz and others. It represents an alternative to the RNA world. It is a work in progress, and it may well be right. Nonetheless, it suffers from one outstanding defect. There is as yet no evidence that it is true . . .
The bottom-line remains, one has to account for a functionally organised complex system that is based on hundreds of information rich macromolecules, fulfills metabolic requirements and embeds a von Neumann self replicating facility. Absent a censoring a priori of evolutionary materialism a la Lewontin, Coyne, UN NAS, US NSTA, NCSE et al, the obvious explanation for such a marvel of nanotechnology would be design. So, when we see a Dawkins or the like telling us that they do not know what actually happened but do know what "must" have happened, that is telling us that it is the censoring a priori that is ruling the roost in origins science. Time to overturn the tables of the moneychangers and announce that the temple of science is a temple meant to pursue truth in light of empirical evidence, not the censoring worldviews agenda of a comfortable and smug materialist establishment. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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All: Re OOL scenarios: "hope springs eternal . . . " I suggest, first of all, that we all pause and look at Illustra Media's Unlocking the Mystery of Life's Origin video clip here. That way, we keep the real issue of what is to be explained in focus. It is ever so easy to lose sight of the core issue. Maybe, Denton's word picture from Evo a Th in Crisis, 1986, will serve to help us remember just how long this has been on the table, a silent, and un-answered challenge:
To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [[so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . . Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell's manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . . [[Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Adler, 1986, pp. 327 – 331.]
In fact the real balance on the merits has long been that -- while headlines in the popular press and even journals keep on touting the latest great hopes -- the metabolism first and genes first schools have reached mutual ruin. The exchange here between Shapiro and Orgel is an apt summary, and the matter has not decisively changed in the last few years. If anything, the embarrassing state of affairs has only festered into a more obvious sore. Berlinsky's remarks cited in the introduction to same the IOSE page -- and, Anti-Evo objectors, don't you see how revealingly childish the attempts to twist names or titles into puerile, spiteful caricatures is? -- on OOL are apt, especially in light of the above attempt to twist an empirically warranted inference to best explanation on my part into an "assumption" or an "assertion." [ . . . ]kairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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Elizabeth, I appreciate your exposition @12 of the reasons you find evolution theory plausible. I think the arguments against that are so overwhelming that I don't have anything to say. Onward and upward. "We therefore note that if life was designed, it was designed at least to partly, if not wholly, “design” itself, and so the role of any designer must have been to start the thing off, and possibly guide it as it went." A perfectly agreeable position to take, and I think it is the one Denton has grown into. Mike Gene, too, among others. "And still we have no evidence of an actual external designer" The "no evidence for God/a metaphysical reality" leaves me cold, because there is a lot of evidence and people either take it or leave it. What kind of evidence for God would you expect? They tried find the ether in the 1800's with 1800's technology. When that didn't work, they scrapped this ancient wisdom. "nor of any mechanism by which an external designer could tweak the process," This is something to which I give a lot of thought. I think the problem of the origin of biological life turned out to be a far harder problem than anyone could have imagined at the outset, and it keeps going further down the rabbit hole. So, we just don't know. I do not envision tweaking. Just doesn't compute for me. Because I envision a natural unfolding of life. I postulate (vaguely, to myself) that this whole setup by the Divine mind is also infused with, shall I say the energies and forces of said mind, and that there are methods of communicating that we have not yet imagined. I do hear of some scientific experiments that sound promising. I have high hopes for them, but I would imagine the Darwinian community would be the last to hear of them. Such as DNA containing photons, of DNA causing some patterns to appear in water and the photons behaving for some time in that pattern after the DNA is removed. I like it because I am very interested in the idea that light is the first or nearly the first stepdown of God to the universe. I'm very fond of the gospel of James. Light may carry information. Keep in mind that in every age we try to understand this cosmos with only the pitiful knowledge at hand, which is never enough. "To to pursue the ID hypothesis, it is important to ask: how would the postulated designer have implemented the design? What might s/he have had in mind? Did s/he somehow seed the earth with simple life forms, “frontloaded” in some way to evolve in response to environmental trigger? Or does s/he maintain a watching brief, supplying a flagellum here (to help a bug cause human disease!) or help for the malaria parasite there (ditto!) And again, why? What would that tell us about the designer?" We are all interested in these questions. "Well, my point is that no, it doesn’t “stand alone”." Wait a minute! Above you insisted that we can make a design inference. But now you say there is a powerful alternative. This simply means that for you, in the case of all biology, the design inference is not apparent to YOU. In the case of the moon monolith, it is. "And, frankly, what fingerprints there are of a designer on life do not look to me like the fingerprints of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God." Well, that is perfectly valid. Most people think the designer was God, and I am very impressed with cosmic fine tuning, but tend not to think of the designer as God, especially if we're talking tweaking and engineering. Why do you think the design falls short of the perfection you expect?avocationist
August 14, 2011
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Barry:
Barry adds: And to date OOL has failed utterly to account for how the digital code might have arisen. There really aren’t any plausible speculations, much less robust theories on this issue. What does that say about whether the assumption to which you refer is warranted?
Well, no, it hasn't "utterly failed". There are several candidate scenarios, each with their own problems, but each with a range of possible solutions. So it is far too early to say that the project has "utterly failed". A project doesn't "utterly fail" until people stop having good leads to a solution. And they have certainly not done so. Did you read the article in this week's New Scientist? btw, I think one problem is in formulating the problem as "account for how the digital code might have arisen". That's a high level description of what OOL researchers do directly at low level - the level of the polymers that display the arrangements that result in more effective self-replication. Call it "digital code" if you want, but that, to my mind, simply obscures the issue (and is probably at the base of my non-connect with Upright BiPed). To explain life, firstly OOL researchers have to figure out how self-replicating molecules might have emerged from non-self-replicating ones. These are likely to be polymers, for various reasons. Secondly, the have to work out why polymers with particular arrangements of their monomers self-replicate better than others. Once you've done that, you've got your digital code - you've got an information-bearing polymer, in the Webster's definition sense of an arrangement of something that has specific effects, in this case, effects that increase the self-replication capacity of the polymer. Sure there are lots and lots of things we don't know, and lots of lots of things we will never know, but that, in itself, is no basis for inferring Intelligent Design, especially when we have plausible candidates-in-principle.Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Barry adds: And to date OOL has failed utterly to account for how the digital code might have arisen. There really aren’t any plausible speculations, much less robust theories on this issue.
I'm sure many OOL researchers would disagree with you, and probably with each other as well ;) Just curious though, how would an ID scientist proceed to investigate OOL based on the starting assumptions that the first self replicator had 1000 or more bits of dfsci, and that only humans have been observed to produce things with more than 1000 dfsci bits?DrBot
August 13, 2011
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Elizabeth I wrote you a comment on the "Demands of Charity" thread. I don't know whether you noticed it, but here it is: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-demands-of-charity/#comment-395732 I think it will address your comments on inferring design from a monolith or a series of prime numbers. Regarding your complaints on the characteristics/qualities of the Designer, I'll be putting up a comment soon on objections to fine-tuning that should touch on some of the matters you raise. Regarding the relation between intentions and intelligence: in his book "The Design of Life", Professor Dembski defines intelligence in terms of the ability to adapt means to ends. Anyone who does that obvious has an end, and therefore has the intention of reaching that end. However, what that end is may be difficult to discern. If you found a monolith on the moon, you'd probably infer (or at least consider) design, but you would probably be in the dark regarding the designer's intentions. Regarding the cosmos as a whole, I think it's fair to say that it was designed to support life. That much is reasonably certain, given the fine-tuning argument (I hope you've read Collins' lengthy essay by now). Regarding DNA, it appears that the choice of code is either optimal or very close to optimal. We are therefore justified in inferring the existence of a life-friendly Designer - which is not the same as a Designer who is friendly towards each and every living thing. Still, that's a substantive conclusion in itself.vjtorley
August 13, 2011
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kairosfocus writes: "to get TO self replication capacity in the living cell requires digital code well beyond the limit just identified. " Lizzie responds: "I realise you make this claim quite frequently kairosfocus, but I do not think it is correct. Or at least I do not think that it has been conclusively demonstrated. Indeed all OOL research is predicated on the assumption that it has not. Barry adds: And to date OOL has failed utterly to account for how the digital code might have arisen. There really aren't any plausible speculations, much less robust theories on this issue. What does that say about whether the assumption to which you refer is warranted?Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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Lizzie writes: "And, frankly, what fingerprints there are of a designer on life do not look to me like the fingerprints of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God. This is a point I’ve brought up a number of times, and so far nobody seems to have engaged it." Barry responds: Because as we have explained dozens if not hundreds of times on this site, ID does not address the issue.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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Dr Liddle: The observations and analyses point to 100 - 1,000 bits of genetic info to make a viable living cell, the only relevant type of life. To counter this, it is your side that needs to put up concrete counter-instances, not wishful thinking, sims and models that depend on being designed etc. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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kf:
PS: to get TO self replication capacity in the living cell requires digital code well beyond the limit just identified.
I realise you make this claim quite frequently kairosfocus, but I do not think it is correct. Or at least I do not think that it has been conclusively demonstrated. Indeed all OOL research is predicated on the assumption that it has not. But I would agree that were it to be demonstrated - that the simplest possible self-replicator was to complex to have emerged spontaneously, then ID would have a much better case.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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PS: to get TO self replication capacity in the living cell requires digital code well beyond the limit just identified. Such capacity sits on a metabolic capacity that in the case of say the ATP Synthase, is also exceedingly complex -- a rotary turret enzyme factory that makes 2 ATPs per cycle. this is the energy factory of the cell, and if it is not there, the cell dies pronto. So, we have metabolism on great complexity and replication on great complexity, both functionally specific. The ADDITIONAL capacity of self replication points even more strongly to design. For first life, and for embryologically feasible major complex body plans both.kairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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lpadron:
Dr. Liddle, I think I get it now. Your last post was particularly helpful. You’re simply pointing out that both rm+ns and an intelligent agent could be responsible for say, the flagellum. With rm+ns we can see or at least imagine the way in which the flagellum may have come about. And although it’s not an intentional process (as “intentional” is commonly understood), it gives the appearance of being it works in such a way that the fittest or most likely to succeed wins out/reproduces. There’s even a “trial and error” aspect to the process. Either way, we can roughly trace how the process works and it can be tested to some degree.
Exactly. Although obviously the flagellum is more of a challenge to account for by rm+ns than other features, which is why, presumably, it is represented on the header of this blog :)
With ID we don’t. We don’t know the process and we don’t know the intention of the designer. You’re not arguing we must know the designer might be; you’re asking what his process or intention might be and how it is we would test for such a thing, right? And any testing along those lines would have to tell us something about the designer even if it doesn’t tell us who it may be.
Yes again. But his intention would be only one interesting question to ask - another would be his method. For example, it should be possible to explore the "frontloading" hypothesis which, I assume, would make very different predictions about what we should find in non-coding DNA sequences (highly conserved but non-functional sequences, for instance - this would be puzzling from a Darwinian point of view, and certainly demand explanation).
If I’m right so far I think you and others may be talking past each other which sucks for me.
Yes, I think we are :) It's not easy when people come from such different ways of looking at things, and there's a lot of baggage too!
In any case, would it be possible for you to admit the possiblity/probability of a designer based solely on impossibility of rm + ns to explain the flagellum even if we can say nothing of the process by which he might have created it?
"Impossibility" is a pretty difficult conclusion to make in science, partly for technical statistical reasons. We can say we "don't know" how something came about. We cannot say that because we "don't know" therefore some unlikely thing (Sherlock Holmes notwithstanding) is more probable than some other thing. It's just the way scientific methodology works - either you put two differential hypotheses head to head and see which one predicts the data better, or you test a hypothesis against a "null" hypothesis. The null is just that the thing didn't happen in the way you hypothesised it did. It isn't that it happened in some other specified way. This is why I keep saying that if ID is to make headway, it needs to make actual differential predictions, and to do so, someone needs to start thinking about how the putative designer worked. Which means hypotheses about the designer.
If yes, then perhaps that’d be the thing for you, Barry and the others to discuss. If not, then you guys might have reached the point of diminishing returns.
That's possible. But frustrating in a way! I mean I myself don't think that ID has much going for it, but I'm sympathetic to some extent because I think the idea makes a fundamentally good point: that some patterns are indicative of a very special kind of process, and that process has a lot in common with the processes by which people design things. And I'm also frustrated because it would be extremely interesting if there was something else going on - if the frontloading hypothesis actually predicted data that would be hugely exciting! But that really would involve doing real science, which would also involve going in with an open mind - that there really might be an ID, but it might turn out not to be God at all. And, frankly, what fingerprints there are of a designer on life do not look to me like the fingerprints of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God. This is a point I've brought up a number of times, and so far nobody seems to have engaged it.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Of course, humans also produce digital artifacts, beyond 1,000 bits. So, we know intelligence is a known cause of FSCI. It is the only known cause of digitally coded, functionally specific complex information, and we know on analytical grounds that chance and/or necessity will be maximally unlikely to produce such. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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F/N: to give an idea, to define the surface, say 1 m x 0.1 m to about 70 nm precision [1/10 wavelength of light], let us simply specify a grid of height 10 cells 100 nm, and covering the surface, centered on the surface so it is +/- 5 cells and divided into 100 micron cubes. The surface then is [1 * 10^7 * 10^10^6 cells per layer] or 10^13 cells per layer. And there being 10 layers, we have 10^14 cells. All of this is just for +/- 1/2 a wavelength or so. A surface flat to the required precision, would require that the bottom 5 layers be full of material and the top 5 be free of material, 1/0 respectively. An acceptably smooth surface will have the bottom 5 layers 1 and the top 5 layers 0. The description is simple enough, but the amount of information stored in the polycrystalline -- i.e. it will not NATURALLY be flat -- surface will be of order 10^13 - 10^14 bits. That is well beyond the reach of chance and it will be something that intelligence is "routinely" known to do. Of course, an optical flat of that size will be quite expensive. (This may be used in optics work or in metrology.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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kf: Yes indeed, which is one of the reasons I would be fairly ready to accept alien manufacture as a more likely hypothesis than geology. Especially given that we know terrestrial creatures are capable of such feats - it is not therefore a huge stretch to postulate extra-terrestrials who could do likewise. And, because the thing does not self-replicate, we know it could not have evolved.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Barry:
“If you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 would you conclude (provisionally pending the discovery a better theory, of course) that the best theory to account for the data is “the signal was designed and sent by an intelligent agent?”
Yes. And I've explained why.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Again, have you reflected on what it takes to make a smooth, flat surface in the case of a polycrystalline object? Such an entity, paradoxically, is anything but simple. And, if you were monitoring a few months ago, there actually was a calculation for this case. [The key factor is the sustaining of a simple, highly specific pattern across a space of cells.] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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Mung:
Elizabeth posts four points from Dembski’s paper. Dembski prefaced those points with the following: (4) Once it is settled that certain biological systems are designed, the door is open to a new set of research problems. Here are some of the key problems: I missed that part in Elizabeth’s post.
No you didn't - I posted the link and you found it. And it underscores my point - first you determine design ("once it is settled...."), THEN you consider intention. Dembski is absolutely clear that "intention" is not a criterion for determining that an "intelligent" agent was involved, and his definition excludes it. He is commendably consistent.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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