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Humpty

Darwinian Debating Device #9: “The Humpty Dumpty Gambit”

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The essence of the Humpty Dumpty gambit, of which Elizabeth Liddle is a master, is treating words as if they are infinitely malleable.

 

In my Demands of Charity post Elizabeth Liddle writes: “My beef is not against inferring design; it’s against inferring intentional design from the pattern exhibited by an object alone and refusing to investigate what other processes, including non-intentional “design” process are also candidates.”

In one sentence Ms. Liddle has used a patently absurd oxymoron and grossly misrepresented the ID project. Let’s see how:


Ms. Liddle refers to “non-intentional ‘design'” without seeming to realize that the phrase is a self referentially incoherent oxymoron. The World English Dictionary defines “design” as follows:

Verb
1. to work out the structure or form of (something), as by making a sketch, outline, pattern, or plans
2. to plan and make (something) artistically or skillfully
3. ( tr ) to form or conceive in the mind; invent
4. ( tr ) to intend, as for a specific purpose; plan
5. obsolete ( tr ) to mark out or designate Noun
6. a plan, sketch, or preliminary drawing
7. the arrangement or pattern of elements or features of an artistic or decorative work: the design of the desk is Chippendale
8. a finished artistic or decorative creation
9. the art of designing 10. a plan, scheme, or project 11. an end aimed at or planned for; intention; purpose
12. ( often plural; often foll by on or against ) a plot or hostile scheme, often to gain possession of (something) by illegitimate means
13. a coherent or purposeful pattern, as opposed to chaos: God’s design appears in nature 14. philosophy argument from design another name for teleological argument

What is common to all of these senses of the word “design”? You guessed it: intentionality. Thus, the phrase “unintentional design” is akin to “red blueness” or, perhaps better, “correct error.”

Elizabeth, no amount of scare quotes around the word design will save the phrase. It is a linguistic nullity.

Elizabeth might respond, that with her scare quotes she can make the word mean anything she wants it to mean, even its opposite. This, of course, is the Humpty Dumpty approach to language.

[Humpty Dumpty says to Alice]: ‘And only one for birthday presents, you know. There’s glory for you!’
‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”‘
‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”,’ Alice objected.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll

Here is how Ms. Liddle channels Humpty:

Elizabeth said, ‘Mindless forces with no end in mind are responsible for the design of all living things.’
‘I don’t know what you mean by ‘design’ in that sentence,’ Barry said.
Elizabeth smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “non-intentional design!”‘
‘But’ “non-intentional design” is an oxymoron, because intentionality is inherent in the word design,’ Barry objected.
‘When I use a word, ‘Elizabeth said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less, and if I want to use “design” to describe a process that has no intentionality, who is to stop me?’
‘The question is,’ said Barry, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Elizabeth, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

Yesterday, Ms. Liddle told me that if I received a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100, I would have no warrant to be certain the signal was designed by an intelligent agent. Today, she tells me that “non-intentional design” is a meaningful concept. Ms. Liddle, thank you for your contributions to this blog on behalf of our opponents.

Finally, a word about the how Ms. Liddle has grossly misrepresented the ID project. She says the ID community refuses “to investigate what other processes,” that might account for the data. Rubbish. I would direct Ms. Liddle to The Edge of Evolution by Michael Behe, in which Dr. Behe explores the limits of Darwinian evolution. To sum up the book in a sentence: “Researches observed in the lab literally trillions of reproductive events by bacteria under intense selection pressure. The bacteria did not develop any significant new biological information.”

Ms. Liddle: News flash. ID proponents have not refused to investigation Darwinian processes. In fact, ID proponents have investigated these processes thoroughly and found that they are indeed responsible for minor variations in phenotype and genotype. These same investigations have revealed, however, that Darwinian processes, even over trillions of reproductive events, do not result in major changes in phenotype and genotype as Darwinists claim.

Comments
Barry, I don't think I have misunderstood the computation of Specified Complexity. Perhaps you would like to show your working for your CSI calculation for the moon monolith? I am regarding this paper: http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.06.Specification.pdf As Dembski's most up-to-date paper on the topic. As I understand him, a thing is "complex" if it is improbable in the sense that it is one of a large number of possible other related things (like one hand out of all possible hands of cards, thus presenting a "difficulty of reproducing the corresponding event by chance"). I have no idea how you calculate this for a monolith on the moon, and, I suggest, it is impossible to calculate, because we do not know the population of which it is a sample. I would agree that it is unlikely that any physico-chemical processes will produce a rectangular monolith unaided, but my reasons for saying so are to do with my priors regarding physico-chemical processes, they are not derived from any actual data on the monolith. You might as well just stand there, and say: well this looks a bit improbable. Well, I agree, but I wouldn't kid myself I was doing any statistical calculation! It would just be a hunch, subject to change in the light of further information (like a geological explanation, for instance). What we can say is that it is compressible (it has a short minimum description length). But lots of things have short minimum description lengths without being complex. To have CSI it has to be both compressible AND complex. As far as we know it is a sample of one from a population of one. You cannot calculate the probability of an object of which you possess only one exemplar, unless of course it has a complex (in the lay sense) pattern, in which case you might assume that a set of other patterns with similar frequencies of the components but different arrangements is the population from which this sequence was drawn. But the monolith has no such pattern. It's just a suspiciously simple, geometrically perfect object.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Elizabeth posts four points from Dembski's paper. Dembski prefaced those points with the following:
(4) Once it is settled that certain biological systems are designed, the door is open to a new set of research problems. Here are some of the key problems:
I missed that part in Elizabeth's post.Mung
August 13, 2011
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Barry asks Ms. Liddle: " in any of those clarifications do you concede that if you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 you could be certain the signal was designed by an intelligent agent?" Ms. Liddle responds: "No, I do not concede that. I might consider it highly likely though. But certainty is something that science doesn’t have the privilege of having. All conclusions in science are provisional . . ." OK. I will grant your point about the provisional nature of all scientific conclusions. That is true. But a scientific conclusion is nevertheless a conclusion. So let me ask the question this way: "If you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 would you conclude (provisionally pending the discovery a better theory, of course) that the best theory to account for the data is "the signal was designed and sent by an intelligent agent?"Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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Dr Liddle: A Moon Monolith would actually be quite complex, once it is polycrystalline. (Cf how hard it is to get a truly straight edge or a truly flat surface under such circumstances, especially if the feature is so to optical precision, say 1/10 wavelength of visible light.) GEM of TKI Barry responds to GEM: See a couple of comments above where I make essentially the same point in a much more long-winded fashion. ;-)kairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, I think I get it now. Your last post was particularly helpful. You're simply pointing out that both rm+ns and an intelligent agent could be responsible for say, the flagellum. With rm+ns we can see or at least imagine the way in which the flagellum may have come about. And although it's not an intentional process (as "intentional" is commonly understood), it gives the appearance of being it works in such a way that the fittest or most likely to succeed wins out/reproduces. There's even a "trial and error" aspect to the process. Either way, we can roughly trace how the process works and it can be tested to some degree. With ID we don't. We don't know the process and we don't know the intention of the designer. You're not arguing we must know the designer might be; you're asking what his process or intention might be and how it is we would test for such a thing, right? And any testing along those lines would have to tell us something about the designer even if it doesn't tell us who it may be. If I'm right so far I think you and others may be talking past each other which sucks for me. In any case, would it be possible for you to admit the possiblity/probability of a designer based solely on impossibility of rm + ns to explain the flagellum even if we can say nothing of the process by which he might have created it? If yes, then perhaps that'd be the thing for you, Barry and the others to discuss. If not, then you guys might have reached the point of diminishing returns.lpadron
August 13, 2011
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Ms. Liddle, in your original discussion of the monolith on the moon I at first thought you were equivocating on the word complexity. But now that I have read your additional comments on the question, it is clear to me that you simply don't understand the (admittedly somewhat technical) use of the word "complexity" in design theory. In your discussion you say that the monolith is not complex. But it is complex in the sense ID theorists use the word. Here is Dembski: "[S]pecified complexity tests for design. Specified complexity is a well-defined statistical notion. The only question is whether an object in the real world exhibits specified complexity. Does it correspond to an independently given pattern and is the event delimited by that pattern highly improbable (i.e., complex)?" The specified complexity test thus has two aspects: (1) independently given pattern and (2) improbable (which is interchangeable with the word "complex"). Let's subject the moon monolith to this test. Does it conform to an independently given pattern? Of course it does. The pattern is "monolith" and we all agree it is a monolith. Is it complex? Here's where your confusion comes in. You say it is not complex, that it is simple. Well, you are right if we are making an essentially aesthetic determination between "elaborate" and "simple" a monolith would fall on the "simple" end of the spectrum. But we are not making an aesthetic determination. We are making a statistical determination between "probable" and "improbable" and as your own discussion admits, the monolith is highly improbable, and under ID theory it is therefore complex.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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Why do people abandon logic and reason and everything they know in favour of materialistic-ONLY explanations??? If we didn't know better, and we came upon Mt Rushmore and saw the faces on it, would we believe the elements did that over time or some designer/creator? We know complexity = design. That's not a huge leap of faith, that's logical deduction based on scientific knowledge.Blue_Savannah
August 13, 2011
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Grunty, please see "The Edge of Evolution," to which I alluded in the commenht from which you quote.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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Barry Arrington, "These same investigations have revealed, however, that Darwinian processes, even over trillions of reproductive events, do not result in major changes in phenotype and genotype" This is the first time I can recall anyone claiming to have researched such processes over "trillions" of events. Can you provide a reference please?Grunty
August 13, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I’ve repeatedly said here that I have no problem with making design inferences. We make them all the time.
Who is this "we" and what is the methodology this "we" uses to make design inferences?
But firstly, we rarely make them on the basis of complexity (sometimes, as I said, we make them on the basis of simplicity), and secondly, they come usually come with a specific hypothesis.
Nor does ID theory make a design inference on the basis of complexity. So if this is an attempt to contrast your version of design detection with ID you fail.
...and secondly, they come usually come with a specific hypothesis.
So does ID. So again, if this is an attempt to contrast your version of design detection with ID, you fail.Mung
August 13, 2011
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avocationist:
I am confused. You said you do not believe that we need to know the identity of the designer,
No, you don't.
and then you proceeded to insist upon just that, with slight modifications.
Well, rather important modifications, to the extent of completely changing that requirement! I've repeatedly said here that I have no problem with making design inferences. We make them all the time. But firstly, we rarely make them on the basis of complexity (sometimes, as I said, we make them on the basis of simplicity), and secondly, they come usually come with a specific hypothesis. To take Barry's example of the monolith on the moon. It isn't complex - it's actually implausibly simple for a natural object. We know that such simple objects are made by biological organisms, but clearly these cannot be made by any terrestrial biological organism, because it's on the moon. Could it be a crystal? Possibly, but we can think of no crystalisation process that might have created it. So we hypothesis: an alien organism created it, possibly intentionally, but not certainly (many organisms produce interesting objects as part of their instinctive repertoire). And, of course, as we can tell the thing can't reproduce, we can rule out rm+ns. So we have a hypothesis: alien biology, possibly intentional design. Now take Barry's prime number signal - now that would be really interesting and really exciting. It was exciting enough when my friend's sister was in the news with her Little Green Men, and that was simply a regular signal. We know that intelligent agents can send signals (because we do) and we know that prime numbers are not generally generated by natural (non-intelligent processes), although that would have to be an alternative hypothesis worth exploring, just as the pulsar was an alternative worth exploring for Jocelyn Bell. But again: we have a specific ID hypothesis - an alien biological intelligent source emitting a signal. In contrast, in the case of proposing ID as a explanation for biological structures we have a colossal amount of information about the objects themselves, the most striking thing being that they self-replicate, and we can observe them doing so. We can observe the processes by which a single cell divides and differentiates until it becomes a multicellular organism, how it is cued to produce gametes, how these combine with the gametes of another organism to start a brand new organism, etc. So we know that organisms are not built by an external agent, but build themselves. We also know about inheritance, about variance, we can observe that certain heritable characteristics of living things are distributed according to a deeply nested hierarchy, we observe fossil organisms that support the hypothesis that the observed hierarchy represents a family tree, and common ancestry, possibly of all organisms, we note (or note that Darwin and Wallace noted) that heritable variation in the capacity to survive in the current environment will lead to continuous adaptation of populations too that environment, and the emergence, over time,of complex solutions to the problems of thriving in a myriad environment. We therefore note that if life was designed, it was designed at least to partly, if not wholly, "design" itself, and so the role of any designer must have been to start the thing off, and possibly guide it as it went. And then we note there are alternative hypotheses for the OOL to a designer. And still we have no evidence of an actual external designer (though plenty for self-"design", nor of any mechanism by which an external designer could tweak the process, nor even any evidence of such tweaks, at least none that cannot be explained without invoking a designer. So to pursue the ID hypothesis, it is important to ask: how would the postulated designer have implemented the design? What might s/he have had in mind? Did s/he somehow seed the earth with simple life forms, "frontloaded" in some way to evolve in response to environmental trigger? Or does s/he maintain a watching brief, supplying a flagellum here (to help a bug cause human disease!) or help for the malaria parasite there (ditto!) And again, why? What would that tell us about the designer? And if we think we have an identikit of the designer, where would we look for evidence of him/her? And what are our priors for such a designer, given that we have a great many non-designer hypotheses to hand that seem to fit the data very well?
Of course all those considerations of what sort of designer and what sort of processes are of immediate interest. But the design inference stands alone. Ample scenarios have been given.
Well, my point is that no, it doesn't "stand alone". There is a powerful alternative. If the ID hypothesis is to compete with the alternative, it has to make differential predictions. Those are possible, but to do so, you need a hypothesis about the designer - its MO, its goals, whatever.
As to the rest of your post, you simply say that random mutation provides adequate information for natural selection to choose between,
No, I didn't say "adequate information" - adequate novelty would be better. The "information" - at least the useful stuff - comes in when a novelty turns out to promote successful reproduction in the current environment, at which point the high prevalence of novelty in the population genome embodies the "information" that that novelty "is useful for surviving here". And "random mutation" might cover a lot of things, some of them not readily described as "random" (a very misleading word, btw - most things have causes, and some mutations probably have systematic causes). For instance, recombination is one source of novelty, and that is a mechanism that seems itself to have evolved. Likewise other variance-producing mechanisms may themselves have evolved, by selection at population level, if they tend to promote adaptation.
which, sigh…,means that we have gotten precisely nowhere so far as I know, not having been privy to the many conversations you have had here.
Well, thanks for engaging, anyway :) Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
And yes, of course I am “alluding to the choice in natural selection”.
Do you mean to say that it is natural selection that is making the choices?Mung
August 13, 2011
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Today, she tells me that “non-intentional design” is a meaningful concept.
This same silly person insists that meaningless information is, well, a meaningful concept. Along with dmullenix, and Allen MacNeill, among others. Is it any wonder they post so much meaningless drivel and expect it to be informative?Mung
August 13, 2011
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Ms Liddle, I would like to be participating in these discussions, as I have been making the same points as you for years on these boards. Unfortunately my arguments caused sufficient consternation here that my comments are now held in moderation, making debate impossible for me here. I applaud your clarity regarding the point that RM+NS does indeed meet many criteria for intelligent processes (e.g. trial-and-error problem solving and memory). I do think you need to be more careful about the mentalistic terms you use. For example, "intentionality" (which has to do with representation) means something quite different from "intention" (which has to do with planning). I submit that it is actually "consciousness" that is truly at issue here, but given my status here as persona non grata I am unable to convey my reasoning effectively.aiguy
August 13, 2011
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Elizabeth, @7 I am confused. You said you do not believe that we need to know the identity of the designer, and then you proceeded to insist upon just that, with slight modifications. Of course all those considerations of what sort of designer and what sort of processes are of immediate interest. But the design inference stands alone. Ample scenarios have been given. As to the rest of your post, you simply say that random mutation provides adequate information for natural selection to choose between, which, sigh...,means that we have gotten precisely nowhere so far as I know, not having been privy to the many conversations you have had here. Strange, isn't it?avocationist
August 13, 2011
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avocationist:
I am surprised, after all this time, that Elizabeth insists we can’t have a design inference without identifying the designer.
If I implied this, I apologise. I did not mean to imply it, because I do not actually believe it. What I'm saying is that if you want to make a design inference from a pattern, you need to consider what I'd call the "design" processes (scarequote deliberate" that might have produced that pattern. That will include consideration of likely designers, possible designers, characteristics of the design process that point to characteristics of the designer, etc. And, at the risk of incurring Barry's wrath, I propose that the process of "rn+ns" have a huge amount in common with the processes by which "intentional designers" design things, in other words through an iterative process of modifying and testing a prototype. avocationist:
I am surprised, after all this time, that Elizabeth insists we can’t have a design inference without identifying the designer.
But has anyone answered her on the point that Dembski has defined intelligence as the ability to choose? Has she taken it out of context? Because she is alluding to the choice in natural selection of course.
On each occasion I have given Dembski's definition I have provided a link to the source. And yes, of course I am "alluding to the choice in natural selection". My point is that I think that IF we use Dembski's definition (which excludes intention as a criterion) then he is correct - there is a characteristic signature of patterns that have emerged from a process that involves "choice between options". Natural selection is one such process, and I think that's why it's products resemble in so many ways, the products of human design. If the ID case is that biological entities bespeak intention then intention needs to be part of the operational definition of intelligence. And if it is, then my position is that the inference is unsupported. Summary: In my view the products of iterative selection processes have a characteristic signature. That signature is found in both biological entities (and their products) and the products of human design. This implies that iterative selection processes are responsible for both. Intentional iterative selection processes (i.e. selection made according to match against some distal goal, by an agent, who has some prior representation of that goal) however are not, IMO, required to explain biological complexity, and I do not think the case has been made (successfully) that they are.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Barry:
Ms. Liddle writes: “If you want to increase your confidence in, or even attempt to falsify, an ID inference (because both false positives and false negatives are possible, as I pointed out) then you have to go further and characterize the designer, or, at least, the design process.” This is an assertion. It does not even rise to the level of an argument.
No, indeed, it is not an argument - it refers to an argument I made elsewhere. I will repeat it if you want.
The assertion has been rebuffed numerous times with actual arguments (not just counter-assertions). Yet Ms. Liddle clings to it. My prior characterization of the assertion as a quasi-religious mantra seems apt.
Well, there is a tendency, in these discussions, for both sides to accuse the other of clinging to "faith" positions. I try to avoid those accusations. I think they are silly. I think this one is silly. If you want to point to specific refutation of an argument I have made, or to an assertion I have not supported, please do so, and I will try to address it.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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I am surprised, after all this time, that Elizabeth insists we can't have a design inference without identifying the designer. But has anyone answered her on the point that Dembski has defined intelligence as the ability to choose? Has she taken it out of context? Because she is alluding to the choice in natural selection of course.avocationist
August 13, 2011
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Barry:
Ms. Liddle says she has “clarified” her position. Well, Ms. Liddle, in any of those clarifications do you concede that if you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 you could be certain the signal was designed by an intelligent agent?
No, I do not concede that. I might consider it highly likely though. But certainty is something that science doesn't have the privilege of having. All conclusions in science are provisional, and most come with "confidence intervals".
Prediction: Ms. Liddle will evade this question, because she knows that if she gives the obvious answer, her entire house of cards will come tumbling down.
I think there is a real problem here, Barry. I'm not sure how to fix it.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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Ms. Liddle writes: "If you want to increase your confidence in, or even attempt to falsify, an ID inference (because both false positives and false negatives are possible, as I pointed out) then you have to go further and characterize the designer, or, at least, the design process." This is an assertion. It does not even rise to the level of an argument. The assertion has been rebuffed numerous times with actual arguments (not just counter-assertions). Yet Ms. Liddle clings to it. My prior characterization of the assertion as a quasi-religious mantra seems apt.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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Ms. Liddle says she has "clarified" her position. Well, Ms. Liddle, in any of those clarifications do you concede that if you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 you could be certain the signal was designed by an intelligent agent? Prediction: Ms. Liddle will evade this question, because she knows that if she gives the obvious answer, her entire house of cards will come tumbling down.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2011
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William Dembski:
...by intelligence I mean the power and facility to choose between options–this coincides with the Latin etymology of “intelligence,” namely, “to choose between"
William Dembski:
(12) Ethical Problem -- Is the design morally right? (13) Aesthetics Problem -- Is the design beautiful? (14) Intentionality Problem -- What was the intention of the designer in producing a given designed object? (15) Identity Problem -- Who is the designer? Note that the last four questions are not properly questions of science, but they arise very quickly once design is back on the table for serious discussion.
Dembski has produced an operational definition of "intelligence" that does not require "intention" which he specifically excludes as a "question of science". Your argument is with Dembski, not with me. But I'm quite happy to give the Dembski definition a different name - let's call it an "iterative filter system". And I submit that an "iterative filter system" can produce what ID proponents ascribe to an Intelligent Designer. This is why operational definitions are so important - to prevent precisely the kind of equivocation you accuse me of, and which I would argue are actually your own. I have said exactly what definitions I am using at any given time precisely so as to avoid (unsuccessfully it seems) accusations of equivocation. Regarding your prime number example - I made several clarifying posts following your comment to mine, which unfortunately you seem not to have read. Regarding your allegation that I have misrepresented "the ID community": I note that the "ID community" is not of one mind, and that some people have put forward testable hypotheses, and others have actually tested some. My criticism is of those who declare "CSI therefore ID" and seem to think that that is enough (assuming if they had actually calculated CSI, which is a whole nuther issue). It is not enough, which was the point of my comments both regarding your 2001 monolith and your prime number example. If you want to increase your confidence in, or even attempt to falsify, an ID inference (because both false positives and false negatives are possible, as I pointed out) then you have to go further and characterise the designer, or, at least, the design process. This is what forensic investigators do, what archaeologists do, what neuroscientists do. A few ID proponents have also done so (those who have proposed "front loading" for instance. I've yet to see a test of such a hypothesis, however. As for:
These same investigations have revealed, however, that Darwinian processes, even over trillions of reproductive events, do not result in major changes in phenotype and genotype as Darwinists claim.
No, they have not done this.Elizabeth Liddle
August 13, 2011
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