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Emergence and the Dormitive Principle

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There is a famous passage in Molière’s play The Imaginary Invalid in which he satirizes the tactic of tautology given as explanation.  A group of medieval doctors are giving an oral exam to a doctoral candidate, and they ask him why opium causes people to get sleepy.  The candidate responds:

Mihi à docto Doctore
Domandatur causam & rationem, quare
Opium facit dormire ?
A quoy respondeo,
Quia est in eo
Virtus dormitiua,
Cuius est natura
Sensus assoupire.

Which is translated:

I am asked by the learned doctor the cause and reason why opium causes sleep.  To which I reply, because it has a dormitive property, whose nature is to lull the senses to sleep.

Of course, “dormitive” is derived from the Latin “dormire,” which means to sleep.  Thus, the candidate’s explanation boils down to “opium causes people to get sleepy because it has a property that causes people to get sleepy.”  It is a tautology disguised as an explanation.

Funny, no?  A real scientist would never stoop to such linguistic tricks, right?  Wrong. 

Consider the materialist explanation for consciousness.  We are told that the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain.  Yes, and sleep is induced by the dormitive property of opium. 

UPDATE

Unsurprisingly, our materialist interlocutors point to the fact that “emergence” as a general concept is commonplace and therefore “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate.  We will see how their argument is circular in this update. 

Viola Lee

If emergent is not a good term, what is? Use the salt example: “Just as Na and Cl are widely different from each other, the compound NACL or salt is widely different from either.” If salt has properties that are quite unlike those of its constituent parts, how does one describe where the properties of salt come from? What concept or word would be accurate here?

Bob O’H

Barry – is the only possible explanation for something that it emerges from something else?

Viola’s and Bob’s argument is circular.  It assumes the very thing to be decided. 

Here is the materialist argument:  Sodium and chloride combine to form salt, which is surprisingly different from either sodium or chloride.  Oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water, which is surprisingly different from either oxygen or hydrogen.  And no one objects when we say salt “emerged” from the combination of sodium and chloride or that water “emerged” from the combination of oxygen and hydrogen.  This is merely another way of stating a reductionist account of how a physical thing (salt or water) can be reduced to the combination of its physical constituents.  It is utterly mysterious how salt comes from mixing sodium and chloride, and it is utterly mysterious how water comes from mixing oxygen and hydrogen.  Calling what happened “emergence” is as good term as any.  The mysterious emergence of one physical thing from other physical things in ways that we cannot explain is common.  Therefore, that consciousness “emerged” from the physical properties of the brain in a mysterious way that we cannot explain is unsurprising.  Nothing to see here; move along. 

Viola’s and Bob’s religious commitments have led them into a glaring logical error.1  It should be obvious that the very thing to be decided is whether, in principle, the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Viola and Bob argue that physical things emerge from other physical things all the time; therefore that the mind emerges from the physical properties of the brain is unsurprising. 

Wait a second.  Viola’s and Bob’s argument works only if one assumes that the mental can be accounted for in physicalist reductionist terms.  They have assumed their conclusion and argued in a tight little circle. 

Viola’s and Bob’s logic has gone off the rails, because the issue to be decided is not whether one physical thing can emerge in surprising ways from a combination of other physical things.  No one disputes that we see examples of this, such as salt and water, all around us.  The issue to be decided is whether mental properties – subjective self-awareness, intentionality, qualia, free will, thoughts, etc. – can emerge from physical constituents.  The question to be answered is whether the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Answering that question by pointing out that we see the physical reduced to the physical is no answer at all. 

There is an obvious vast, unbridgeable ontological chasm between mental phenomena and physical phenomena.  Therefore, the burden is on materialists to account for how, in principle, a particular combination of chemicals can, for example, have subjective self-awareness.  Many materialists (Sam Harris comes to mind) understand this is an impossible burden and therefore deny that we have subjective self-awareness at all, and our perception that we do is an illusion (who is deceived Sam?).  Here again, we see materialists forced by their religious commitments to say crazy, obviously false, things.  That we are subjectively self-aware has for good reason been called the primordial datum.  Everyone knows beyond the slightest doubt that he is subjectively self-aware, and the very act of attempting to refute it is self-referentially incoherent.  Chemicals cannot know, and asserting chemicals know they cannot know is (i.e. that chemicals have intentionality) is absurd. 

In conclusion, Viola and Bob say, essentially, things emerge from other things all the time; therefore the mind emerged from the brain.  This is an obvious non sequitur and their augment fails. 

_____________________

1Materialism is, at bottom, a religious proposition. 

Comments
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JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available. - - - - - - - - - - UB: In your own words, you say that you accept encoded symbolic content from space as a valid inference to design. So would everyone else on the planet. Name the designer. JVL: Me? Name the designer? That’s your belief system my friend, not mine.
Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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. Why the double standard JVL?Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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. Good god man, can you not see that everyone with a lick of sense clearly sees what you are doing? Do you really think you invented this line of defense and no one has seen such a thing before, and no one catches what’s going on?Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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Upright Biped: In your own words, you say that you accept encoded symbolic content from space as a valid inference to design. So would everyone else on the planet. Name the designer. Me? Name the designer? That's your belief system my friend, not mine. Can’t name the designer? Nope Can’t tell us where the designer is? Nope Can’t say when the designer did its designing? Nope Can’t say why? Nope Can’t say any of that can you? Nope Nicely put. Thanks for pointing out the questions you can't/won't/refuse to address. At the risk of being boring . . . here's the question: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when it can't, indeed refuses by definition, to answer more than one question?JVL
May 7, 2021
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. Can’t name the designer? Nope Can’t tell us where the designer is? Nope Can’t say when the designer did its designing? Nope Can’t say why? Nope Can’t say any of that can you? NopeUpright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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. JVL, In your own words, you say that you accept encoded symbolic content from space as a valid inference to design. So would everyone else on the planet. Name the designer. Hypocrisy alert.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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upright Biped: How? A set of material symbol vehicles were set up, along with a set of material constraints, so that something could be specified among alternatives, enabling a dissipative process to be organized to persist over time. When? At the origin of life. So, what's your explanation of how that happened? IF ID is to be a 'better' explanation then lets hear the explaining. Mrs Johnson, we’re sure sorry about those two holes in your husband’s back, but the Sherif done said ain’t nobody saw nothin’, so we figure he died of natural causes. You need to accept thangs as they is, and go on about your business. IF ID wants to be considered a 'better' explanation then it'd better do some explaining. Can you do that? JVL, while you are passing out instructions on logic, can you clear up why you insist on a double standard in your reasoning about ID? I don't have a double standard. You choose to selectively repeat some pieces of a long and involved issue. AND: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when it not only explains less but says it can't and won't go past a certain point? Why don't you stop rehashing old arguments and start trying to do some explaining?JVL
May 7, 2021
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re 60: well-stated. Emergence is a descriptor, not a cause nor an explanation. It describes situations where various constituent parts come together to produce something significantly different than any of those parts. Then figuring out how that happens becomes the subject of investigation, with the goal being an explanation.Viola Lee
May 7, 2021
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. JVL, while you are passing out instructions on logic, can you clear up why you insist on a double standard in your reasoning about ID? - - - - - - - - -
JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available.
Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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Regarding the OP, it would seem that emergence is a question and not an answer. As such, it's appropriate to speak of emergent explanations only if they explain how a property emerges without reference to the principle of emergence itself.hnorman42
May 7, 2021
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So that means we can ask about how and when?
How? A set of material symbol vehicles were set up, along with a set of material constraints, so that something could be specified among alternatives, enabling a dissipative process to be organized to persist over time. When? At the origin of life.
Can ID be considered a ‘better’ explanation when it doesn’t even try to go beyond the design inference?
Mrs Johnson, we’re sure sorry about those two holes in your husband’s back, but the Sherif done said ain’t nobody saw nothin’, so we figure he died of natural causes. You need to accept thangs as they is, and go on about your business.Upright BiPed
May 7, 2021
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ET: As a matter of fact REALITY dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the who or how is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. And there are plenty of artifacts that we don’t know the who or how. And yet they are still artifacts that can be studied. And, guess what, no one in the ID community is even attempting to move past the design inference. Besides, ID is defined to NOT move past the design inference. We're told: the how and why and so forth is NOT part of ID. So, based on what ID proponents say ID CANNOT be a better explanation because it chooses to limit what it can and can't answer. Not all questions are valid, not all questions will be considered. Is that a 'better' explanation? And also, again, evolutionism is the mechanistic position and yet it has nothing but questions. And ID says: don't ask those questions, we don't deal with those questions. We only consider: is something designed or not? That's it. No moving past that point, no follow on, no nothing. And stop asking us because we told you we wouldn't answer those questions. We're a science that only looks at one, narrow issue. That's it. And we've already decided the answer to the question. So . . . What to do next? Hmmm . . . .JVL
May 7, 2021
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Bornagain77: JVL, contrary to what you believe, denial of what is right in front of your eyes is not scientific evidence that unguided material processes can produce what only Intelligence has ever been observed creating. Namely information. Again, dodging the issue: can ID be considered a 'better' explanation when it doesn't even try to go beyond the design inference?JVL
May 7, 2021
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ET: Design includes the implementation. What is wrong with you? Nothing. But you never talk about implementation. Why is that? Especially if design includes implementation. So that means we can ask about how and when? Your willful ignorance is not an argument. “the Privileged Planet” says the purpose was a universe intelligently designed for scientific discovery. Sure, how do you test that with an experiment? Again, humans are a what, not a who. That's just you trying to find some way to not back down from your claims. Look, JVL, no one from your side is trying to figure out how blind and mindless processes did it. You are a sad hypocrite. Your position is all about the how and yet you and yours have NOTHING. Clearly they ARE trying to figure that out. But anyway, you're dodging the major point: ID is not and never has tried to move past the design inference. Because ID never even attempts to address the obvious and natural follow on questions it's NOT a 'better' explanation. It addresses less and it intentionally limits what it will and won't answer. Yes, it will as soon as it is the accepted paradigm and people are [properly trained. Your position doesn’t have any answers at all. You have nothing beyond denying ID. ID will gain traction when it offers up some explanations beyond: these things were designed. Your side doesn’t have any answers. You have nothing. You don’t even have any reason to infer unguided processes did it. You can’t even test it. Yours isn’t even an explanation. Again, not addressing the main point: ID is NOT a better explanation because it doesn't even try to answer pertinent, obvious questions. In fact, it refuses to do so.JVL
May 7, 2021
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Earth to Viola Lee: Do we have to know who designed something in order to infer it was designed and then study it? No Do we have to know how something was designed in order to determine it was designed and then to study it? No As a matter of fact REALITY dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the who or how is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. And there are plenty of artifacts that we don't know the who or how. And yet they are still artifacts that can be studied. As JVL likes to ignore, everything we "know" about Stonehenge came from centuries of research. And that is something we can duplicate. We cannot duplicate the art and science of creating life from scratch. The same goes for designing universes and planetary systems. So we study the design so we can figure it out. We figure it out so we can repair and maintain it. And hopefully someday we may be able to duplicate it. And also, again, evolutionism is the mechanistic position and yet it has nothing but questions.ET
May 7, 2021
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JVL, contrary to what you believe, denial of what is right in front of your eyes is not scientific evidence that unguided material processes can produce what only Intelligence has ever been observed creating. Namely information. Again, the impetus is on you. And 10 million dollars of motivation is also in the mix for you.bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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JVL:
And that’s why I don’t think that ID is a ‘better’ explanation. It answers fewer questions and addresses fewer issues.
Your side doesn't have any answers. You have nothing. You don't even have any reason to infer unguided processes did it. You can't even test it. Yours isn't even an explanation.ET
May 7, 2021
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JVL:
Can ID move past the: we infer design stage and actually get around to answering some perfectly legitimate follow-on questions?
Yes, it will as soon as it is the accepted paradigm and people are [properly trained. Your position doesn't have any answers at all. You have nothing beyond denying ID.ET
May 7, 2021
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JVL, buy a dictionary. Design includes the implementation. What is wrong with you?
Sure but I haven’t seen any ID proponents even attempt to deal with intent and purpose let alone trying to reproduce the designed items.
Your willful ignorance is not an argument. "the Privileged Planet" says the purpose was a universe intelligently designed for scientific discovery.
As usual your take on the archaeological process and practice is clearly not that of someone actually working in that field.
That is your uneducated opinion, anyway.
We do ‘know’, with a high degree of certainty, that the human beings around at the time designed and built Stonehenge.
Again, humans are a what, not a who.
My point about ID is that no one in the ID community is even attempting to move beyond the design inference. It’s just not happening.
Look, JVL, no one from your side is trying to figure out how blind and mindless processes did it. You are a sad hypocrite. Your position is all about the how and yet you and yours have NOTHING.ET
May 7, 2021
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Bornagain77: JVL at 46, The completely evidence free blind faith that Darwinists have in unguided material processes to produces unfathomable levels of complexity, that our best engineers can only look at and drool, wishing they could imitate it, makes the faith that Christians have look rather timid in comparison. Not really addressing the points brought up. JVL at 47, once again, we see Intelligent agents producing information all the time. The impetus is on you to prove otherwise. 10 million dollars awaits you in your falsification of ID. – see Perry Marshall’s 10 million dollar OOL prize Again, not really addressing the points brought up about whether or not ID is a 'better' explanation of how life originated and developed on Earth. Can ID move past the: we infer design stage and actually get around to answering some perfectly legitimate follow-on questions?JVL
May 7, 2021
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JVL at 47, once again, we see Intelligent agents producing information all the time. The impetus is on you to prove otherwise. 10 million dollars awaits you in your falsification of ID. - see Perry Marshall's 10 million dollar OOL prizebornagain77
May 7, 2021
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JVL at 46, The completely evidence free blind faith that Darwinists have in unguided material processes to produce unfathomable levels of complexity, that our best engineers can only look at and drool, wishing they could imitate it, makes the faith that Christians have look rather timid in comparison.bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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Bornagain77: Intelligent Design, as the very name implies, posits that only Intelligence can explain the Design we see. Sigh. We don't all see 'design'. We don't all agree that only intelligent agents can account for the life forms we observe. To continue the ideas already expressed: ID infers that certain aspects or forms or structures of observed life on Earth are better explained via the machinations of an intelligent designer vs unguided natural processes. But when anyone starts to ask how the design was implemented or even when (not to mention the unmentionable why or who) the ID community puts down the shutters except for tiny little gun holes. This is why I find it hard to accept ID as a 'better' explanation' of the development of life on Earth. It answers fewer questions than evolutionary theory, it doesn't even attempt to answer most questions, it refuses to accept that some questions are even acceptable. ID answers ONE question: was life on Earth designed or undesigned? That's it. And then it stalls. It stops. Nothing happens after that. Things could happen, work could be done. I can think of work that could be done. But no work actually happens. Why is that? IF life on Earth was designed then when is the ID community going to address some of the basic mechanistic questions: when and how. I'll leave why and who for the time being.JVL
May 7, 2021
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Viola Lee: So perhaps ID does not address the questions JVL asks because the two perspectives (JVL’s and Barry’s, in this case) are interested in fundamentally different things. JVL is asking about actual explanations of what has gone on in the world, in reference to other things and events in the world. ID appears to be interested in defending a particular metaphysical interpretation of what has happened in the world, to the exclusion of other interpretations. I don’t consider such metaphysical interpretations (mine or anyone else’s) explanations. They are stories about the world that tie into our larger conceptual framework about values, meaning, purpose, etc., but they don’t explain anything in any practical way about the world itself. And that's fine!! I'm happy that ID is about meaning and purpose. I don't have a problem with faith. Sometimes I wish I had some myself. But that's not 'explaining' how life forms came about. That's an attempt to explain WHY they came about. Which is great!JVL
May 7, 2021
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JVL at 44, the point is that there is found to be far less randomness in life than Darwinists have presupposed. The following article on human vision stated that, “Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light”.,,, “it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,”,, and the researched added, “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”,,, “What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?”
Study suggests humans can detect even the smallest units of light – July 21, 2016 Excerpt: Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light. Previous studies had established that human subjects acclimated to the dark were capable only of reporting flashes of five to seven photons.,,, it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,” says Vaziri. “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”,,, The gathered data from more than 30,000 trials demonstrated that humans can indeed detect a single photon incident on their eye with a probability significantly above chance. “What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?” http://phys.org/news/2016-07-humans-smallest.html
Darwinian biologists simply have no clue how such is possible. As Jim Al-Khalili stated "living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role."
Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video states, ",, Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can't build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn't really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it." At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q
In fact, finding quantum principles to be ubiquitous within biology empirically falsifies the reductive materialistic presuppositions of Darwinists:
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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Sandy: There is NOTHING unguided on a cell or organism .Everything is guided with a great precision otherway bad things happen with life. So, do you think HIV arose via unguided processes? How about malaria? The common cold? Polio? Rickets? How about cancer? Melanoma? Anthrax? Ulcers? Acid reflux? Herpes? STDs?JVL
May 7, 2021
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I'm interested in this question of what constitutes an explanation. At 34, JVL listed a number of reasons why invoking evolution, is "NOT a complete explanation but there’s something there to work with." JVL also makes what is to me an important point:
And I still don’t see how design (a mental activity) is a mechanism. Without implementation design is just a mental construct. Design can lead to implementation which, via physical methods and mechanisms, leads to new forms. Obviously. But just inferring design doesn’t really explain much.
I agree that to effect the world, one's designs must be built. Not only does implementation force one to address all the specific details that are often left out of a general design (think blueprint of a house, which does not address every nail, wire, etc.), it also forces one to think about the tools one will use, the order in which things will be built, the nature of the materials one will use, etc. In reply to JVL, Barry writes, "You have been told countless times that ID does not address these issues. You don’t seem to be capable of understanding that." This I do not understand. Perhaps JVL doesn't understand this, despite how many times he's been told, because it doesn't make sense. What good is ID if it doesn't address the issues JVL mentions? For that matter, if ID goes no further than positing an intelligence in the world (which is a premise I accept, although I think of it differently than most people here), then why not accept that the processes that science has discovered are in fact the means by which design is implemented? What I have learned here on this site, I think, is that ID is primarily a philosophical position that rejects both materialism and non-theistic perspectives about the creative power of the universe such as mine (as well as, I gather, certain theistic views such as some segments of Christianity.) So perhaps ID does not address the questions JVL asks because the two perspectives (JVL's and Barry's, in this case) are interested in fundamentally different things. JVL is asking about actual explanations of what has gone on in the world, in reference to other things and events in the world. ID appears to be interested in defending a particular metaphysical interpretation of what has happened in the world, to the exclusion of other interpretations. I don't consider such metaphysical interpretations (mine or anyone else's) explanations. They are stories about the world that tie into our larger conceptual framework about values, meaning, purpose, etc., but they don't explain anything in any practical way about the world itself.Viola Lee
May 7, 2021
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JVL states, "Something can be designed or undesigned, those are qualities of the object. The important question is: how did it come about. And ID never, ever even tries to accept that that is an important question." What in the world are you going on about? Intelligent Design, as the very name implies, posits that only Intelligence can explain the Design we see. In fact, your very own post is proof positive evidence that only intelligence can generate information.
Assessing the Damage MN Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. If ID satisfied MN as that philosophical doctrine is usually stated, the decades-long dispute over both wouldn’t have happened. The whole point of invoking MN (by the National Center for Science Education, for instance, or other anti-ID organizations) is to try to exclude ID, before a debate about the evidence can occur, by indicting ID for inferring non-physical causes. That’s why pushing the MN emergency button is so useful to opponents of ID. Violate MN, if MN defines science, and the game is over. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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ET: Buy a dictionary and learn how to use it. Then you will see that design is a mechanism by definition. Sure, that's what the dictionary says. But does 'design' all on its own accomplish anything? Does it do anything by itself? It needs to be implemented. Otherwise it just sits there. Inferring design actually explains quite a bit. For one it means that nature didn’t do it. For another it points to intent and purpose. And still again it points to the fact we may be able to reproduce it. Sure but I haven't seen any ID proponents even attempt to deal with intent and purpose let alone trying to reproduce the designed items. That said, archaeologists always determine that design exists BEGFORE attempting to figure out when, who and why. We still don’t know who designed and built Stonehenge. We still don’t know why or how. Everything we know came from centuries of research. And Stonehenge is something we can duplicate. So only a fool would think that we should have to know how life was designed when we obviously don’t have the knowledge to duplicate the feat. As usual your take on the archaeological process and practice is clearly not that of someone actually working in that field. We do 'know', with a high degree of certainty, that the human beings around at the time designed and built Stonehenge. We've found their tools, their living quarters. We know they existed. We have found some cosmological reasons why it might have been constructed. And we have been testing out various construction methods that might have been used. It's not some big black hole mystery as you tend to portray it. My point about ID is that no one in the ID community is even attempting to move beyond the design inference. It's just not happening. It's like no one cares to even attempt it. The science of ID is in the detection and study of design in nature. That people like JVL refuse to grasp that fact just proves they are trolls on an agenda. Yes, fine. You can wander around the world pointing at different life forms and saying: this was clearly designed. And this was clearly designed. Oh and that thing over there. But without going past that basic inference you haven't given a 'better' explanation because you haven't addressed all the follow on questions. And I don't think anyone is even trying. I'd be happy to be wrong on that issue. Something can be designed or undesigned, those are qualities of the object. The important question is: how did it come about. And ID never, ever even tries to accept that that is an important question. Evolutionary theory is all about trying to figure out how life forms arose, that is the whole point. And they've figured some things out. And they're working on the parts they don't know. That makes it a better explanation.JVL
May 7, 2021
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Barry Arrington: You have been told countless times that ID does not address these issues. You don’t seem to be capable of understanding that. And that's why I don't think that ID is a 'better' explanation. It answers fewer questions and addresses fewer issues.JVL
May 7, 2021
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