Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Everything You Believe Is Based on Personal Experience and Testimony

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In other threads, certain people have claimed that personal experience and testimony are not as valid as other forms of evidence. In fact, some would dismiss thousands of years and the accumulation of perhaps billions of witness/experiencer testimonies because, in their view, personal experience and testimony is not really even evidence at all.

The problem with this position is that everything one knows and or believes is gained either through  (1) personal experience (and extrapolation thereof), or (2) testimony (and examination thereof), for the simple fact that if you did not experience X, the only information you can possibly have about X is from the testimony of others.

In a courtroom, for example, the entire case depends on testimony, even when there is physical evidence, because the jury relies upon the testimony of those that produce and explain what the physical evidence is, how it is relevant, and explains why it is important to the case. Unless the jurors are swabbing cheeks and conducting DNA tests themselves, the DNA evidence is in principle nothing more than the testimony of an expert witness. The jurors have no means of ascertaining the DNA “facts” for themselves; they entirely rely upon the testimony of what they assume to be a highly credible witness.

When a gun is entered into evidence, it is a meaningless fact – it’s a gun. The jurors rely entirely upon the testimony of law officers to inform them where the gun was found, if it was the right caliber, who owned it, etc. All of that information is presented through testimony.

Further, establishing motive and opportunity are forms of logical arguments, established via testimony, which counts as evidence.

Similarly, unless one is a research scientist in fields where one believes certain theories to be valid, he is (and we are as well) entirely dependent upon testimonial evidence – found in the form of research papers, books and articles written by such scientists. “Peer review” is nothing more to the reader than the testimomy of supposedly credible sources that the testimony of the authors is not blatantly false or contain factual errors.

Outside of what we personally experience, virtually all of our knowledge comes from testimony delivered via some form of media or another. We consider the source of the testimony, and the media it is delivered through, credible or non-credible to one degree or another – but that doesn’t change the fact that when we read or hear it, it is nothing more than testimony. If you are a scientist conducting research, you are personally experiencing the process and accumulation of data.  Beyond that, it is only testimony to others unless they perform the same experiments.  Often, the conclusions of scientific research hinge upon the testimony of other researchers, which may turn out to be fraudulent or mistaken.

So, when anyone says that testimony and personal experience are dismissible forms of evidence, they are obviously using (consciously or not) selective (and logically incoherent) hyperskepticism against an unwanted idea, because everything any of us believe or call ‘knowledge” is gained/extrapolated (hopefully using logic and logical arguments) via personal experience and/or information gained via testimony.

Comments
Joe #86 Biology 101, Jerad. Mutations happen. It’s a fact. But how does your model induce them? Do you or do you not know? Probably not. So . . . you don't know. Wrong. They are guided programs. They use goal-oriented targeted searches to actively search for solutions to given problems. They don't all do that. AND they are attempting to model unguided evolution or aspects of it. So what? You can’t explain anything. If you can't uphold your claim then you're going to be ignored. Your ignorance is already a given. You've been using words like 'guided' and 'induced' without explaining how those processes are carried out. You haven't been able to even guess where the programming is or how it's encoded or, specifically, how it affects development. Programming. The same way ones and zeros are induced on a computer buss. Clearly you can't really support your contention with any clear processes or physical reactions. I guess we'll just leave it at that.Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Jerad:
How, physically/chemically are the mutations induced?
Biology 101, Jerad. Mutations happen. It's a fact.
Is the programming the same from species to species?
Probably not.
Evolutionary and genetic algorithms are attempting to model unguided evolution
Wrong. They are guided programs. They use goal-oriented targeted searches to actively search for solutions to given problems.
Again, you haven’t explained how they are programmed to occur, how the programming is stored, how the programming has so far eluded cell scientists, how the mutations are ‘guided’.
So what? You can't explain anything.
In fact, I’m not sure what ‘guided’ means if they have been programmed to occur.
Your ignorance is already a given.
Specifically, by what physical process are the mutations targeted and induced?
Programming. The same way ones and zeros are induced on a computer buss.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Joe #84 It’s inside of the organism, some is stored in the DNA, it affects mutations by inducing them to happen and it passed on just as all inheritable material is passed on. I have no idea what you are talking about by changing from species to species. How, physically/chemically are the mutations induced? It can't be via radiation because that would be detected. Is the programming the same from species to species? Evos never uphold anything they claim, however if you read up on evolutionary and genetic algorithms then you will have an idea on how it works. Evolutionary and genetic algorithms are attempting to model unguided evolution so I'm not really clear how they uphold your position. It would be better if you could be specific with an example, a particular algorithm and target. No, they occur because they are programmed to occur and then they are guided towards a solution. Again, you haven't explained how they are programmed to occur, how the programming is stored, how the programming has so far eluded cell scientists, how the mutations are 'guided'. In fact, I'm not sure what 'guided' means if they have been programmed to occur. Targeted mutagenesis. Now grow up and get an education Specifically, by what physical process are the mutations targeted and induced?Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad:
Where is this programming? How is is stored and encoded? How does it affect mutations? How is it transferred from parent to child? How is it changed from species to species?
It's inside of the organism, some is stored in the DNA, it affects mutations by inducing them to happen and it passed on just as all inheritable material is passed on. I have no idea what you are talking about by changing from species to species.
You haven’t explained how the process works exactly. If you make a claim you have to uphold it.
Evos never uphold anything they claim, however if you read up on evolutionary and genetic algorithms then you will have an idea on how it works.
In that program, mutations occur randomly (something you’ve said is not true of biological systems) and then ‘good’ mutations are retained.
No, they occur because they are programmed to occur and then they are guided towards a solution.
How do you ‘induce’ mutations?
Targeted mutagenesis. Now grow up and get an educationJoe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #82 By internal programming, just as with evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Where is this programming? How is is stored and encoded? How does it affect mutations? How is it transferred from parent to child? How is it changed from species to species? So your are super dense. And apparently willfully ignorant. You haven't explained how the process works exactly. If you make a claim you have to uphold it. Dawkins’ weasel is a good start. Is that your model? The one you claim to have? Why not just give us the one that is correct? In that program, mutations occur randomly (something you've said is not true of biological systems) and then 'good' mutations are retained. Are you saying your designer has provided some kind of undetected and unfound programming which filters out bad mutations and keeps good ones that match a pre-existing, pre-ordained pattern? Why is it then that so many people die of cancer? Or MD? Or multiple schlerosis? Why do people get lupus? If the mutations are being 'guided' then why is there so much genetic disease and suffering? Things not caused by viruses or bacteria (which you've already admitted are NOT guided). IF there is some programming that keeps 'good' mutations and discards 'bad' ones based on some pre-programmed ideal then why did it take billions of years of documented life to get to human beings? Assuming that they are the 'goal' of the process? Considering that genome sizes vary considerably does the unseen and unfound programming need to wait for gene duplication, ERVs, etc to achieve the 'goal'? If mutations are guided then why do humans have psuedo and broken genes? And large numbers of repeated sequences which have no affect on protein production? And why do the number of repeats vary from person to person? Is that part of the programming? If so how is that accounted for? AND how are mutations 'induced'? How do you 'induce' mutations?Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad:
But you haven’t explained how mutations are guided.
By internal programming, just as with evolutionary and genetic algorithms.
Or what ‘guided’ means.
So your are super dense. And apparently willfully ignorant.
Where is your model?
Dawkins' weasel is a good start.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #80 Jerad, Obviously you are more dense than a singularity. You must be a walking black hole. The mutations are guided towards a solution. I have said that so obviously you are just an ass. But you haven't explained how mutations are guided. Or what 'guided' means. Where is your model? The mutations are induced by the programming to actively search for solutions. Buy what programming? Where is it? How is it stored? How is it encoded? How do the algorithms you cite model this? How are they induced? AGAIN, you said you have a model . . . can we see it.Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad, Obviously you are more dense than a singularity. You must be a walking black hole. The mutations are guided towards a solution. I have said that so obviously you are just an ass. The mutations are induced by the programming to actively search for solutions.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #78 I asked you to provide a model of intelligent design evolution and so far you haven't done so with any clarity. Jerad thinks that computer programmers sit around placing ones and zeros on the buss lines. How many times do I have to go over this with you, Jerad? Are you happily ignorant? Is that it? I'm just asking you to clarify your claim that you have a model, based on given algorithms, of intelligent design evolution. What is the problem? I would think you'd be proud to show it off. The program does. So, the mutations aren't guided after all? But you said they were. I'm confused. Which is it? Are the mutations random or not? Natural selection has proven to be impotent. It can’t even make the dog breeds. Look, you've said you've got a model. I'm asking you questions about that model. I would think you'd be glad to spell it all out. In the model are mutations random or not??Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad thinks that computer programmers sit around placing ones and zeros on the buss lines. How many times do I have to go over this with you, Jerad? Are you happily ignorant? Is that it?
So, your designer doesn’t induce mutations at all?
The program does. Natural selection has proven to be impotent. It can't even make the dog breeds.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #76 They are guided towards the solution, duh. So, let me get this straight . . . you think the designer sits around and watches random mutations occur and decides which ones to keep and which ones to throw away based on some plan? But, you've said the mutations aren't random!! I am confused. Aside from being amused at the idea of a designer sitting somewhere monitoring billions and billions and billions of mutations, thinking: ooo, malaria . . . I'll let that go. The plague . . . too bad eh? Ah but I like that this human can now digest cow's milk. I'll keep that. Polio . . . pass. TB . . . pass. Ebola . . . pass. MRSA . . . pass. They are all guided towards a solution. So, your designer doesn't induce mutations at all? That's your model. He just shifts out the ones he wants to keep. Funny, that does sound a bit like natural selection . . . except there's some undetected and undefined designer trying to induce his design by picking and choosing mutations.Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad:
If the mutations are guided then Dr Dawkins’ weasel program is not a good fit since the mutations in it are unguided.
They are guided towards the solution, duh.
So . . . the designer has a goal in mind . . . many of the programs you refer to have unguided mutations, are you sure that’s your model?
They are all guided towards a solution.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #74 Evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Take a look at Dawkins’ weasel program. that should be simple enough for even someone like yourself. Yes, I have looked at that and I do understand it. Is that your model for intelligently designed evolution? Does your model include locking certain positions? Does the designer just wait for a mutation that they like and then lock it down? If the mutations are guided then Dr Dawkins' weasel program is not a good fit since the mutations in it are unguided. Already have, many times. They work via goal-oriented targeted searches. Unguided evolution doesn’t have any goals nor is it a search. So . . . the designer has a goal in mind . . . many of the programs you refer to have unguided mutations, are you sure that's your model?Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad:
What built-in responses? Show us the model.
Evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Take a look at Dawkins' weasel program. that should be simple enough for even someone like yourself.
Then show us how one works to support intelligent design evolution.
Already have, many times. They work via goal-oriented targeted searches. Unguided evolution doesn't have any goals nor is it a search.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #72 Organisms will continue to adapt or die- they adapt via built-in responses to environmental cues. What built-in responses? Show us the model. YOU have NOTHING, Jerad. Both evolutionary and genetic algorithms model intelligent design evolution. No one can model unguided evolution. there aren’t even any analogies. Then show us how one works to support intelligent design evolution. It should be easy if you're right. You lose. Just show us the model.Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad:
You made a specific claim: that you could model intelligent design evolution which means you should be able to use it to predict future trends, in general.
Organisms will continue to adapt or die- they adapt via built-in responses to environmental cues.
Look, if you’ve got nothing to show then you shouldn’t be claiming you’ve got a model of intelligent design evolution.
YOU have NOTHING, Jerad. Both evolutionary and genetic algorithms model intelligent design evolution. No one can model unguided evolution. there aren't even any analogies. You lose.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #70 Non-sequitur. You made a specific claim: that you could model intelligent design evolution which means you should be able to use it to predict future trends, in general. So I'm just asking you to show us that. What’s the alternative? Look, if you've got nothing to show then you shouldn't be claiming you've got a model of intelligent design evolution.Jerad
April 9, 2015
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Jerad:
Show us a model of intelligent design evolution that gives a prediction of what we can expect in the next 10 millions years of life on this planet then.
Non-sequitur.
Show us its predictive power.
What's the alternative?Joe
April 9, 2015
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Joe #68
Because design is the only explanation for what we observe. We can actually model intelligent design evolution- see evolutionary and genetic algorithms. We cannot model unguided evolution.
Show us a model of intelligent design evolution that gives a prediction of what we can expect in the next 10 millions years of life on this planet then. Show us its predictive power.Jerad
April 9, 2015
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vel:
How does design explain evolution more sufficiently?
Because design is the only explanation for what we observe. We can actually model intelligent design evolution- see evolutionary and genetic algorithms. We cannot model unguided evolution.Joe
April 9, 2015
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The function of antibiotic resistance confers environmental fitness in the presence of antibiotics. The mutation that provides the function of antibiotic resistance occurs independently of the presence of antibiotics, that is, the environment.
LoL! The other bacteria are part of that same environment and we know they communicate. That alone means that you are just spewing nonsense, as usual.
The Lederberg experiment is a straightforward demonstration that the evolution of the given function is random with respect to fitness.
Also incorrect. All they showed was the mutations were not in response to the antibiotics.
This is all consistent with evolution as normally construed.
Your continued cowardly equivocation is duly noted.Joe
April 9, 2015
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William J Murray: note how Zachriel (and others, including scientists, he has linked to) conflate “indepedent from environmental fitness” with “random wrt to function”. The function of antibiotic resistance confers environmental fitness in the presence of antibiotics. The mutation that provides the function of antibiotic resistance occurs independently of the presence of antibiotics, that is, the environment. William J Murray: Obviously, one would have to run a massive probability study in order to determine if mutations were indeed “random wrt function”; something along the lines of what Axe and Gauger are doing in terms of establishing the search space and the subset of function and what that function space requires in terms of accumulated mutations in order to determine if mutations that were random wrt function space were likely to develop what we see in biology in the time frame alotted. No. The Lederberg experiment is a straightforward demonstration that the evolution of the given function is random with respect to fitness. William J Murray: Mutations and selection could still be weighted heavily in favor of function, just not any particular function at any particular time, and just not as a result of environmental pressures. Variations are naturally weighted in favor of functions in the sense that they are changes to existing functional structures. For instance, resistance to a particular antibiotic may coopt a function that pumps some other poison out of the organism. That's the nature of evolution. Furthermore, organisms which often experience a varying set of environments during the course of generations will tend to evolve strategies that cope with those various environments. This is all consistent with evolution as normally construed.Zachriel
April 9, 2015
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What the Lederbergs showed was that at least some mutations are random with respect to fitness.
What they failed to show is that mutations are undirected, chance events.
The Lenski experiment delves into considerably more detail, again supporting random mutation.
Actually Lenski supports Spetner.Joe
April 9, 2015
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Box: The idea that mutations are random wrt to function is based on naturalistic assumptions. There are many experts in the field, e.g. Shapiro and Wagner, who argue against it. What the Lederbergs showed was that at least some mutations are random with respect to fitness. The Lenski experiment delves into considerably more detail, again supporting random mutation.Zachriel
April 9, 2015
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Just to point out the ideological bias that runs so deep that apparently the a/mats cannot see it, note how Zachriel (and others, including scientists, he has linked to) conflate "indepedent from environmental fitness" with "random wrt to function". Obviously, one would have to run a massive probability study in order to determine if mutations were indeed "random wrt function"; something along the lines of what Axe and Gauger are doing in terms of establishing the search space and the subset of function and what that function space requires in terms of accumulated mutations in order to determine if mutations that were random wrt function space were likely to develop what we see in biology in the time frame alotted. The interesting thing is that all it takes for Zachriel et al to conclude that mutations "have been observed and are knwon to be random wrt function" is if research indicates that mutations occur independent of environmental pressures - independent of currently needed new function. In other words, in their minds, there are only two options; either a mutation occurs in correlation to environmental pressures/needed new function, or it is random wrt function; that is a logical non-sequitur. Their conceptualization of what would organize mutations non-randomly is constrained by a/mat ideology; it either occurs in correspondence with/as a result of environmental pressures (the limit of their conceptualization of the possibilities leading to non-random mutations), or it doesn't and so is "necessarily" random. Both are entirely compatible with a/mat philosophy; the problem is that the non-random nature of the mutations may be set in a different manner than "as a result of" environmental pressures. "Independent of environmental pressures" only means "random wrt function" if that is the limit of one's concept of what could possibly be going on (under a/mat ideology) - as Box points out in #61. (In the same way, religious ideology biased research and ins some ways limited the advance of science by insisting on a limited perspective of how god would construct things. Even though the theistic perspective was necessary to properly ground scientific investigation, limited, idiosyncratic conceptualizations of what was possible unnecessarily constrained conceptualization and progress.) Mutations and selection could still be weighted heavily in favor of function, just not any particular function at any particular time, and just not as a result of environmental pressures. But, there's no current means of conceiving such a weighted system without bringing in some form of teleology that is manipulating mutations against the mean. This points to the issue of how a/mat philosophy puts blinkers on scientific research that are not even recognized as such by those doing the research; they reach conclusions that are necessary according to a/mat philosophy but which are not logically necessary, then insist (as Zachriel does) that the a/mat conclusion is what the research means. It's not what the research necessarily means; it's just the limit of what a/mats can conceive under the bias of their ideology. Before the big bang evidence theory, all a/mats could conceive was a universe that always existed; the idea of an actual beginning to the universe was preposterous. Similarly, the a/mat perspective of the genome insisted that most of the DNA would be "junk" and that biology was full of "bad design", and that there would be a relatively smooth gradient of evolutionary evidence. Eventually the mounting evidence forced a/mats to change their views; they developed new a/mat explanations for these things, regardless of how clumsy and unlikely those explanations were - like "universes from nothing, gravity for free" from Stephen Hawking, and the backtracked junk DNA rewriting of history. They don't even see that the increasing library of facts is herding them farther and farther into a corner that grows less and less tenable all the time, forcing them into ever-increasing contortions as they attempt to defind their atheism/materialism.William J Murray
April 9, 2015
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Seversky, I responded to your:
Sev, 42: So evolution is okay as long as it includes a handy (and carefully-undefined) god-sized gap in the explanation.
This is an outrageous strawman tactic projection, one loaded with a raft of false accusations and insinuations. (The UD Weak Argument Correctives, accessible under resources at the top of this and every UD page, exposes and answers many of these. You need to read it and take it to heart.) I therefore repeat from 43, as it has plainly not soaked in: >> an explanation that pivots on inference to best explanation per a trillion member basis of observations, that FSCO/I etc are reliable signs of design, is not a gaps explanation. Your dismissive appeal to god of the gaps, is therefore a strawman caricature and projection, kindly correct it. Stubbornly clinging to false and loaded narrative, ideological talking point dismissive agendas such as the long since exploded “ID is a god of the gaps creationist argument designed to evade US Court rulings, and dressed up in a cheap tuxedo . . . ” thesis . . . agitprop talking point, is a sign of want of good faith and of failure of intellectual and ethical duties of care, thus closed minded indoctrination, which are not healthy signs. >> How can you and so many others like you continue to do this sort of stunt, then pretend to outraged innocence when you are called on it? Come on man, do better than that. A lot better. KFkairosfocus
April 9, 2015
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The idea that mutations are random wrt to function is based on naturalistic assumptions. There are many experts in the field, e.g. Shapiro and Wagner, who argue against it. Zachriel pretends to be unaware of this fact or hasn't been able to connect the dots.Box
April 9, 2015
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William J Murray @ 44
Actually, no. Evolution as a scientific theory is okay if it is presented as such free of unsupported and unnecessary ideological blinders of any sort. There’s no reason, logical or evidential, to characterize selection as “natural” and mutation as “random”. It unnecessarily biases the entire scientific process wrt evolutionary biology.
It seems to me perfectly reasonable to characterize selection as “natural’ if you want to distinguish it from “artificial” and mutations as “random” with respect to survival . In other words, mutations happen regardless of whether they subsequently prove to be beneficial or detrimental to the organism There is no bias involved. An explanation is offered based on certain assumptions. Science is free to accept or reject it. If intelligent design proponents have an alternative explanation of how living things changed over time they are free to table it for serious consideration..
To my knowledge, the selection and mutation sequences necessary to generate what evolution has theoretically wrought have never been remotely quantified, even in principle, as being plausibly attributable to natural (non-directed by intelligence) or random processes. Certainly no falsifiable mathematical, predictive Darwinian metric has ever been offered.
This is called setting the evidence bar impracticably high or selective hyperskepticism. There seems to be no chance, at least for the foreseeable future, that science will be able to delineate a causal chain at the genetic level which links a parent species with a descendant. But it is akin to arguing that, because we cannot describe the trajectories of every piece of circumstellar debris that coalesced into the planet Earth, the theory of gravity is unfounded.
So no, I’m not insisting a god-gap be left in the theory; I’d like the unsupported, unnecessary ideological blinders be removed.
If anything, you could say that a/mat emerged when religious blinders were removed, when there was no longer any need for science to be religiously - as distinct from politically - correct, no pressure for its findings to be consistent with Christian theology.Seversky
April 8, 2015
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Box: “Every possible mutation“? That’s an awful lot of mutations. About a billion mutations occurred during the course of the experiment across a genome of about five million base pairs, so each site was mutated more than a hundred times. About a hundred of those mutations reached fixation, of which about 10 to 20 had a known beneficial effect. Box: Does that mean that Lenski has terminated the experiment, since ‘every possible mutation’ has already been observed and the effects are known? No. A particular mutation might have no particular effect, or an unknown effect, or might potentiate a later adaptation. See Blunt et al., Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli, PNAS 2008. William J Murray: I’m not aware of any “theory of rainfall” that explicitly claims that all rainfall mechanisms and patterns are natural and/or random. There's a science called meteorology concerning the mechanisms of rainfall. They have journals and stuff. http://journals.ametsoc.org/ There's some limited anthropogenic influence on climate, but changes in rainfall patterns long predate human industrial society. William J Murray: How do you determine if an environment was/is natural or artificial if it is not known that humans are/were manipulating the environment? Humans have not had the capability to change the weather until recently. They have, however, been changing the environment for domestic animals for thousands of years. William J Murray: Just because a mutation didn’t occur due to the presence of penicillin doesn’t necessariy mean that the mutations are random wrt to function or even a particular function; it just means that some of the colonies had that particular mutation and others did not. They're clones. The mutations occurred during the course of the experiment. The Lederbergs showed that the mutations occurred independently of environmental fitness. William J Murray: You really should pick up the habit of providing quotes from the material you reference which support your argument and a brief description of how the material quoted supports your position in this debate. You might try to read the abstract. Blount et al. showed that the potentiating mutation occurred in some lineages, but not others, independent of the environmental fitness. As recounted above, the overall experiment studied the results of a billion mutations over twenty thousand generations. William J Murray: You might also throw in, just for the fun of it, an explanation of what random mutations are **not** capable of producing, evolution-wise. Evolution works incrementally, so new adaptations have to be modifications of existing structures.Zachriel
April 8, 2015
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I didn't claim that natural selection and random mutation were inadequate to account for anything; I said that unless you can demonstrate them sufficient via some rigorous, falsifiable metric, you have no business claiming they are sufficient, much less insisting it as a matter of scientific fact.William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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