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Everything You Believe Is Based on Personal Experience and Testimony

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In other threads, certain people have claimed that personal experience and testimony are not as valid as other forms of evidence. In fact, some would dismiss thousands of years and the accumulation of perhaps billions of witness/experiencer testimonies because, in their view, personal experience and testimony is not really even evidence at all.

The problem with this position is that everything one knows and or believes is gained either through  (1) personal experience (and extrapolation thereof), or (2) testimony (and examination thereof), for the simple fact that if you did not experience X, the only information you can possibly have about X is from the testimony of others.

In a courtroom, for example, the entire case depends on testimony, even when there is physical evidence, because the jury relies upon the testimony of those that produce and explain what the physical evidence is, how it is relevant, and explains why it is important to the case. Unless the jurors are swabbing cheeks and conducting DNA tests themselves, the DNA evidence is in principle nothing more than the testimony of an expert witness. The jurors have no means of ascertaining the DNA “facts” for themselves; they entirely rely upon the testimony of what they assume to be a highly credible witness.

When a gun is entered into evidence, it is a meaningless fact – it’s a gun. The jurors rely entirely upon the testimony of law officers to inform them where the gun was found, if it was the right caliber, who owned it, etc. All of that information is presented through testimony.

Further, establishing motive and opportunity are forms of logical arguments, established via testimony, which counts as evidence.

Similarly, unless one is a research scientist in fields where one believes certain theories to be valid, he is (and we are as well) entirely dependent upon testimonial evidence – found in the form of research papers, books and articles written by such scientists. “Peer review” is nothing more to the reader than the testimomy of supposedly credible sources that the testimony of the authors is not blatantly false or contain factual errors.

Outside of what we personally experience, virtually all of our knowledge comes from testimony delivered via some form of media or another. We consider the source of the testimony, and the media it is delivered through, credible or non-credible to one degree or another – but that doesn’t change the fact that when we read or hear it, it is nothing more than testimony. If you are a scientist conducting research, you are personally experiencing the process and accumulation of data.  Beyond that, it is only testimony to others unless they perform the same experiments.  Often, the conclusions of scientific research hinge upon the testimony of other researchers, which may turn out to be fraudulent or mistaken.

So, when anyone says that testimony and personal experience are dismissible forms of evidence, they are obviously using (consciously or not) selective (and logically incoherent) hyperskepticism against an unwanted idea, because everything any of us believe or call ‘knowledge” is gained/extrapolated (hopefully using logic and logical arguments) via personal experience and/or information gained via testimony.

Comments
kairosfocus @ 43
Seversky, an explanation that pivots on inference to best explanation per a trillion member basis of observations, that FSCO/I etc are reliable signs of design, is not a gaps explanation. Your dismissive appeal to god of the gaps, is therefore a strawman caricature and projection, kindly correct it. Stubbornly clinging to false and loaded narrative, ideological talking point dismissive agendas such as the long since exploded “ID is a god of the gaps creationist argument designed to evade US Court rulings, and dressed up in a cheap tuxedo . . . ” thesis . . . agitprop talking point, is a sign of want of good faith and of failure of intellectual and ethical duties of care, thus closed minded indoctrination, which are not healthy signs. KF
It was WJM who called for the expulsion from the theory of evolution of the Darwinian process of random mutation and natural selection on the grounds that it was inadequate to account for observed changes in living things over time. If that were to happen it would create an explanatory gap in the theory. One candidate to fill that gap could be an intelligent designer and one candidate for the role of such a designer would be the Christian God.Seversky
April 8, 2015
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Zachriel said:
Are you suggesting that, for example, cyclical changes in rainfall are not natural? Thought Æolus retired.
I'm not aware of any "theory of rainfall" that explicitly claims that all rainfall mechanisms and patterns are natural and/or random. Evolution by natural selection and random mutation are specific positive claims about the nature of mechansims, patterns and results we find in biology; if you cannot back it up beyond mere assertion, then you are admitting you cannot support that explicit claim.
If humans select dogs for certain traits, that’s artificial — by definition.
How do you determine if an environment was/is natural or artificial if it is not known that humans are/were manipulating the environment?
No. No. Random with respect to fitness means a lack of correlation between the advent of the adaptation and the environment, i.e. which colony will have the adaptation is no better than a random guess.
But then you say:
The Lenski Experiment observed every possible mutation, so there’s no question about whether mutations are random in that case.
So your "no, no, etc." left possible questions open? Just because a mutation didn't occur due to the presence of penicillin doesn't necessariy mean that the mutations are random wrt to function or even a particular function; it just means that some of the colonies had that particular mutation and others did not. There are other factors that have to be considered before the distribution of that mutation or even the mutation itself can be considered "random", as you yourself agree when you say:
This ["no question about whether mutations are random in that case" - WJM] is most evident with their observation of adaptive contingency. See Blunt et al., Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli, PNAS 2008.
You really should pick up the habit of providing quotes from the material you reference which support your argument and a brief description of how the material quoted supports your position in this debate. It's not my job to go running out blindly to sources to try to figure out how they might support your claims. Please provide the quote(s) and a explanation of how that paper supports your contention that mutations have been (1) shown to be random, and (2) shown to be, as random, sufficient to explain what we find in biology as a whole. You might also throw in, just for the fun of it, an explanation of what random mutations are **not** capable of producing, evolution-wise. After all, if you are going to confidently assert that a thing is achievable via random mutations and natural selection, you should also be able to tell us what RM&NS cannot achieve. Right?William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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Zachriel: The Lenski Experiment observed every possible mutation, so there’s no question about whether mutations are random in that case.
"Every possible mutation"? That's an awful lot of mutations. Does that mean that Lenski has terminated the experiment, since 'every possible mutation' has already been observed and the effects are known? If not, why not?Box
April 8, 2015
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William J Murray: Asserting they are natural is not demonstrating they are natural. Are you suggesting that, for example, cyclical changes in rainfall are not natural? Thought Æolus retired before Apollo did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UxBjmuxh2Y William J Murray: How do you determine if an environment is natural or artificial? If humans select dogs for certain traits, that's artificial — by definition. William J Murray: It just means that some colonies did develop that particular mutation and others did not. That's right. Which colonies developed resistance was random with respect to fitness. William J Murray: That doesn’t indicate that the mutations were random, even wrt that particular function. That's exactly what that means. William J Murray: Wouldn’t one also have to know all possible mutations, No. William J Murray: mutation rates No. William J Murray: and the likelihood that such combinations would survive the selection process and replicate throughout the colony Which is observed. William J Murray: in order to assess the likelihood that any particular mutational success into a new, useful colony-wide function could be properly characterized as meeting what could be statistically expected from natural/random processes? Random with respect to fitness means a lack of correlation between the advent of the adaptation and the environment, i.e. which colony will have the adaptation is no better than a random guess. The Lenski Experiment observed every possible mutation, so there's no question about whether mutations are random in that case. This is most evident with their observation of adaptive contingency. See Blunt et al., Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli, PNAS 2008.Zachriel
April 8, 2015
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gpuccio @50: I completely agree with everything you said.William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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Zachriel said:
Because the mechanisms are natural. Furthermore, we can emulate natural selection under artificial conditions.
Asserting they are natural is not demonstrating they are natural. How do you determine the mechanisms (1) are natural, and (2) are behaving naturally?
The environment for domestic dogs is artificial. However, the variation is largely natural.
How do you determine if an environment is natural or artificial? How do you determine if the variation is "largely" natural or artificial? Zachriel said:
Here’s a simplified explanation:
I don't see how the experiment determines whether or not the mutations are random wrt function. Just because some bacteria did not develop mutations that were later useful, and some did, doesn't mean the mutations were random wrt the function (penicillin resistance). It just means that some colonies did develop that particular mutation and others did not. That doesn't indicate that the mutations were random, even wrt that particular function. Wouldn't one also have to know all possible mutations, mutation rates and the likelihood that such combinations would survive the selection process and replicate throughout the colony in order to assess the likelihood that any particular mutational success into a new, useful colony-wide function could be properly characterized as meeting what could be statistically expected from natural/random processes?William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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William J Murray: How does that correlation quantify the selection event as natural? Because the mechanisms are natural. Furthermore, we can emulate natural selection under artificial conditions. William J Murray: There is a persistent correlation between the morphological traits of dog breeds, the shifting environment of human capacity and predilections, and the reproductive success of such breeds, very little of which is natural (as opposed to artificial/intentional). The environment for domestic dogs is artificial. However, the variation is largely natural. William J Murray: Please provide the pertinent quotes here, or at least summarize how you think these references have quantified mutation events as non-directed with respect to function. Here's a simplified explanation: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIC1bLederberg.shtmlZachriel
April 8, 2015
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William J Murray: Thank you for the interesting discussion. I agree with you, even if I have not read everything in detail. My simple personal view is that each of us has his own world-view, his map of reality. And that map is based on his personal experience and on his personal reactions to that experience. IOWs, our map of reality is in large measure a choice, not only a cognitive process. Of course, our personal experience includes testimony from others, thoughts from others, the observation of the choices and of the maps of reality made by others, and so on. It includes everything which touches our consciousness. And each reaction to those things. Science is an interesting category, but it has no special right to be the foundation of a map of reality, unless one chooses that way. Others choose to use science in a wider context of cognitive processes (that would be more my personal attitude). What science is, and what is its importance, are very personal conclusions, different, probably, for each one of us. Including the supporters of scientism, however they may believe that they share a same faith. don't believe that we can share "the same faith" with anyone, be it religious, philosophical, politic, scientific or else. Our faith is our faith: a choice we make, different from the choices of everyone else. Obviously, there are many parts of our world maps which can be compared, shared, or which can be incompatible with parts of other's maps. That's what makes the game interesting. But it is important to remember the importance of personal choices. The myth of pure cognition is, IMO, a myth. Cognition and feeling are always intertwined. Free choice is the final ruler of everything.gpuccio
April 8, 2015
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Zachriel said:
By observing a persistent correlation between morphological traits, a shifting environment, and reproductive success.
How does that correlation quantify the selection event as natural? There is a persistent correlation between the morphological traits of dog breeds, the shifting environment of human capacity and predilections, and the reproductive success of such breeds, very little of which is natural (as opposed to artificial/intentional). I don't see how the mere correlation indicates such selections are quantifiable as "natural".
The question was whether it was random, meaning random with respect to fitness. A classic experiment is Lederberg & Lederberg, Replica Plating and Indirect Selection of Bacterial Mutants, Journal of Bacteriology 1952. Also, take a look at Lenski’s E. coli Long-term Experimental Evolution.
Please provide the pertinent quotes here, or at least summarize how you think these references have quantified mutation events as non-directed with respect to function.
Let’s make sure we understand what we’re talking about first.
Uh-huh.William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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William J Murray: (1) How can you directly observe whether a selection event was natural or not? By observing a persistent correlation between morphological traits, a shifting environment, and reproductive success. William J Murray: (2) How can you directly observe whether a mutation event was natural or not? The question was whether it was random, meaning random with respect to fitness. A classic experiment is Lederberg & Lederberg, Replica Plating and Indirect Selection of Bacterial Mutants, Journal of Bacteriology 1952. Also, take a look at Lenski's E. coli Long-term Experimental Evolution. William J Murray: (3). How can you quantify whether or not accumulations of such events are even in principle capable of generating what they are claimed to have generated – all biological features (outside of human interference) that we see? Let's make sure we understand what we're talking about first.Zachriel
April 8, 2015
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Zachriel said:
We can directly observe both natural selection and random mutation, so we can clearly characterize them as “natural” and “random”.
(1) How can you directly observe whether a selection event was natural or not? (2) How can you directly observe whether a mutation event was natural or not? (3). How can you quantify whether or not accumulations of such events are even in principle capable of generating what they are claimed to have generated - all biological features (outside of human interference) that we see?William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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William J Murray: There’s no reason, logical or evidential, to characterize selection as “natural” and mutation as “random”. We can directly observe both natural selection and random mutation, so we can clearly characterize them as "natural" and "random".Zachriel
April 8, 2015
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velikovskys asks:
How does design explain evolution more sufficiently?
What does "more sufficiently" mean? A process is either sufficient, or it is not. RM/NS is not sufficient to explain wolf-to-dog-breed evolution. The existence of dog breeds requires selective breeding and artificially maintaining environments that allow for the continued existence of the breeds. ID, in the forms of humans deliberately acting to help generate and maintain the breeds from the original wolf stock, is required for a sufficient explanation.William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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seversky said:
So evolution is okay as long as it includes a handy (and carefully-undefined) god-sized gap in the explanation.
Actually, no. Evolution as a scientific theory is okay if it is presented as such free of unsupported and unnecessary ideological blinders of any sort. There's no reason, logical or evidential, to characterize selection as "natural" and mutation as "random". It unnecessarily biases the entire scientific process wrt evolutionary biology. To my knowledge, the selection and mutation sequences necessary to generate what evolution has theoretically wrought have never been remotely quantified, even in principle, as being plausibly attributable to natural (non-directed by intelligence) or random processes. Certainly no falsifiable mathematical, predictive Darwinian metric has ever been offered. Anti-IDists themselves insist there is no method by which to quantify processes assumed to be natural and/or random in nature as sufficient to the task, because it would be the same metric that would also indicate ID as the converse. So no, I'm not insisting a god-gap be left in the theory; I'd like the unsupported, unnecessary ideological blinders be removed.William J Murray
April 8, 2015
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Seversky, an explanation that pivots on inference to best explanation per a trillion member basis of observations, that FSCO/I etc are reliable signs of design, is not a gaps explanation. Your dismissive appeal to god of the gaps, is therefore a strawman caricature and projection, kindly correct it. Stubbornly clinging to false and loaded narrative, ideological talking point dismissive agendas such as the long since exploded "ID is a god of the gaps creationist argument designed to evade US Court rulings, and dressed up in a cheap tuxedo . . . " thesis . . . agitprop talking point, is a sign of want of good faith and of failure of intellectual and ethical duties of care, thus closed minded indoctrination, which are not healthy signs. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2015
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William J Murray @
Evolution isn’t particularly being challenged here; Darwinian evolution is. Evolution (to at least one degree or another) is supported by all kinds of evidence. The evolution of the wolf into many breeds of dog is supported by all kinds of evidence – but such evolution is not sufficiently explained by random mutation and natural selection.
So evolution is okay as long as it includes a handy (and carefully-undefined) god-sized gap in the explanation.Seversky
April 7, 2015
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Wjm: Evolution isn’t particularly being challenged here; Darwinian evolution is. Evolution (to at least one degree or another) is supported by all kinds of evidence. The evolution of the wolf into many breeds of dog is supported by all kinds of evidence – but such evolution is not sufficiently explained by random mutation and natural selection. How does design explain evolution more sufficiently?velikovskys
April 7, 2015
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William J Murray @ 31
Seversky said: As Mark Frank points out, everything you believe is indeed based on your personal experience or testimony. Really? Mark Frank “pointed that out”? **Checks title of thread.**
Yes, he did but, to be fair you did point it out first so my apologies for not making that clear.Seversky
April 7, 2015
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Jerad, While sets of data have been collected via the scientific method, as far as I know none of that data has been put through any mathematical model that predicts what we can and cannot expect from unguided natural and random forces/mechanisms. What are the entailments of an evolutionary process manufactured entirely by random & natural forces? Evolution isn't particularly being challenged here; Darwinian evolution is. Evolution (to at least one degree or another) is supported by all kinds of evidence. The evolution of the wolf into many breeds of dog is supported by all kinds of evidence - but such evolution is not sufficiently explained by random mutation and natural selection.William J Murray
April 7, 2015
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Jerad:
So, you’re saying that over 150 years of research and publications are NOT based on repeatable and observer independent results?
There aren't any such things when it comes to say prokaryotes evolving into something other than prokaryotes. There aren't any such things when it comes to evolving molecular machinery. So obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.Joe
April 7, 2015
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Joe #35
That is exactly why unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution is not science.
So, you're saying that over 150 years of research and publications are NOT based on repeatable and observer independent results? Are you sure? Do you really think that there is no research that is, at least partially, a duplication of other work? That there isn't at least a core aspect that has been checked and checked and verified over and over again? Do you really think it's all just made up? Just-so stories?Jerad
April 7, 2015
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OldArmy94- A case can be made for John Hanson as the first PresidentJoe
April 7, 2015
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Jerad:
Science is about measurable, repeatable, witness independent results that can be reliably assumed to occur.
That is exactly why unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution is not science. Thank you.Joe
April 7, 2015
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Jerad @6
I don’t think this is a fair characterisation of science regarding religious experiences or in general. Science is about measurable, repeatable, witness independent results that can be reliably assumed to occur.
I see. When is the last time that someone demonstrated how sex evolved in a measurable way and with repeatability? Go ahead and replace the word sex with any number of words such as: - a bird lung from a dinosaur lung - a three chambered heart from a 4 chambered - heart - abiogenesis - language - DNA and other soft tissue can last for 65 million yrs? - multicellarity - eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes Etc etc etc
A miracle that can be predictably made to occur is part of science and will be studied and examined. Without repeatability, reported events are interesting . . . maybe a suggestion of a line of possible research, like near death experiences . . . but not science if you can’t induce it reliably.
I see. Then what about abiogenesis? It is literally a miracle! It cannot be studied or examined. Repeatability is not possible. Can it be induced reliably? Really? Why or why not? Who gets to decide that? So you are open to miracles, even supernatural miracles, if they can be induced reliably? That’s why I believe in the resurrection!
That doesn’t mean such experiences aren’t valid in a moral or psychological sense.
But not in a literal historical sense, right? Actual miracles are not possible in your worldview, right? So, if someone claims to have had some type of spiritual experience, you would not seek to disagree with them, but you would question the validity of that experience as to it’s connection to reality and “physical truth” if it cannot be repeated on demand, right? You would chalk it up to some type of coincidence, psychological phenomenon, or find some other explanation, even if it cannot be conclusively explained, right? At least you were smart enough to say that things have to be induced reliably, but that is a subjective thing. What is reliable to some may not seem reliable to others. Abiogenesis would be one very good illustration of this. So, now whether something qualifies as science or not is subject to someone's subjective and arbitrary decision as to whether or not it can be reliably induced? That's what science is? Whatever happened to the good old days when scientists used the scientific method? When dealing with unobservable unrepeatable events, we are limited to induction and this is why historical science is so much more subjective and far less reliable than real experimental science.tjguy
April 7, 2015
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I would like to hear the SCIENTIFIC evidence that George Washington was the first President of the United States. I have every reason to believe he was, of course, but is there an empirical study that establishes his presidency as fact?OldArmy94
April 7, 2015
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“In any philosophy of reality that is not ultimately self-defeating or internally contradictory, mind – unlabeled as anything else, matter or spiritual – must be primary. What is “matter” and what is “conceptual” and what is “spiritual” can only be organized from mind. Mind controls what is perceived, how it is perceived, and how those percepts are labeled and organized. Mind must be postulated as the unobserved observer, the uncaused cause simply to avoid a self-negating, self-conflicting worldview. It is the necessary postulate of all necessary postulates, because nothing else can come first. To say anything else comes first requires mind to consider and argue that case and then believe it to be true, demonstrating that without mind, you could not believe that mind is not primary in the first place.” - William J. Murray Highly amused that commenters can blow by something like this without giving the slightest pause. There’s no getting around it. No explaining it away. No argument about anything without first either accepting it, or collapsing into worldview level incoherence. I don’t like to be incoherent and I wonder if those who espouse other than that postulated above by WJM are at least privately likewise so. WJM thank you for that. An elegant statement, with bulging intellectual muscle, obviously born of a well-exercised mind.AnimatedDust
April 7, 2015
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Seversky said:
As Mark Frank points out, everything you believe is indeed based on your personal experience or testimony.
Really? Mark Frank "pointed that out"? **Checks title of thread.**William J Murray
April 7, 2015
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Jerad @ 22 "I would say that kind of speculation and testing is science because all scientific theories go through that stage before becoming established." If you give this leeway to "multiverse" with no actual evidence, what about ID theory? CheersCross
April 7, 2015
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Seversky @ 25 "If the accounts also tell us that he turned water into wine, fed a crowd of 5000 with a couple of loaves and a few fish, that he walked on water, that he raised the dead, that he himself rose from the dead then I would need more than just those accounts to convince me that those events occurred and that they were supernatural in origin." There is further evidence, at least 8 of the disciples who were eye witnesses to these events were willing to be martyred, two by crucifixion. Would you die for a cause you knew was a fake? CheersCross
April 7, 2015
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Jerad you are the one trying to interpret things to your own end: For instance you state: "your mixing confusing probability and statistics" That is like saying I'm mixing confusing water with H2O. You can't talk about one without talking about the other Statistics is related to probability because much of the data we use when determining probable outcomes comes from our understanding of statistics. https://www.khanacademy.org/math/probability Statistics and Probability Statistics and probability are sections of mathematics that deal with data collection and analysis. Probability is the study of chance and is a very fundamental subject that we apply in everyday living, while statistics is more concerned with how we handle data using different analysis techniques and collection methods. These two subjects always go hand in hand and thus you can't study one without studying the other. http://www.wyzant.com/resources/lessons/math/statistics_and_probabilitybornagain77
April 7, 2015
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