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Evolution News: In His New Book, Denton Shows How Science Leads the Charge to Theism

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Neil Thomas writes:

William Paley once quipped that observation of the complexity of the human eye (which, it will be recalled, was wont to give Darwin uncomfortable doubts about the efficacy of natural selection) supplied an assured “cure for atheism.” Extending Paley’s quip, I would add that if the eye doesn’t do it for you, the brain with its quadrillions of synchronized electro-chemical operations almost certainly will. There seems to be little exaggeration in claiming that cytology, the microscopic study of cells enabled by the ultra-high magnifications of the electron microscope, has led to a wholly unexpected revival of the fortunes of Paley’s once derided natural theology.

Recent advances in biological science, a subject formerly proclaimed to be corrosive of metaphysical beliefs1, have somewhat unexpectedly become a stimulus to the emergence of new advances which endorse many of the older observations of natural theology. As astronomer Paul Davies remarked some four decades ago, “It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.”2 Supporting this contention — that science itself leads the charge toward a fresh theistic turn — Michael Denton makes the firm observation in his new book, The Miracle of Man: The Fine Tuning of Nature for Human Existence, that recent studies of the way the terrestrial environment appears to be fine-tuned for humankind are “not based on the Judeo-Christian scriptures or classical philosophy but on evidence derived from advances in our scientific understanding of nature.” (p. 208)

Gifts from the Gods

Providing chapter and verse for his views, in convincing detail with an enviably multi-disciplinary command, Denton elaborates on ways in which the properties of light, carbon, water, and metals contribute to the fitness of nature for humankind, providing substantial circumstantial evidence that the world we inhabit was “pre-adapted” for our use. 

The notion that we are simply an “epiphenomenon” of mindless processes cast adrift in a cosmos configured by pure chance has in the last half century or so been challenged by a new scientific landscape, Denton argues — with some understatement. For as Michael Behe comments in his advance praise of Denton’s work, the philosopher Bertrand Russell’s notorious contention that “Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving” has turned out to be “the most spectacularly wrong-headed pronouncement of the 20th century.”

Cosmologists make no bones about the fact they can see no logical pathway to how we all came to be here on this planet. The cosmological constants which create conditions favorable to life are on any statistical reckoning improbable to an extreme, even prohibitive degree. The same goes for the genesis and proliferation of life forms: the whole phenomenon remains stubbornly unamenable to rational decipherment.

Evolution News
Comments
Andrew, You are mistaken about Biology textbooks. I spoke to a relative about what she was being taught in Biology class. When I questioned certain things, she said "Why would they lie to me?" People expect to hear truth, not speculation. [B]“[E]volution works without either plan or purpose — Evolution is random and undirected.”[/B] ([I]Biology[/I], by Kenneth R. Miller & Joseph S. Levine (1st ed., Prentice Hall, 1991), pg. 658; (3rd ed., Prentice Hall, 1995), pg. 658; (4th ed., Prentice Hall, 1998), pg. 658; emphasis in original.) “[B]Humans represent just one tiny, largely fortuitous, and late-arising twig[/B] on the enormously arborescent bush of life.” (Stephen J Gould quoted in Biology, by Peter H Raven & George B Johnson (5th ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pg 15; (6th ed., McGraw Hill, 2000), pg. 16.) “By coupling [B]undirected, purposeless [/B]variation to the [B]blind, uncaring [/B]process of natural selection, [B]Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous[/B].” ([I]Evolutionary Biology[/I], by Douglas J. Futuyma (3rd ed., Sinauer Associates Inc., 1998), p. 5.) “Darwin knew that [B]accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism[/B], the conviction that [B]matter is the stuff of all existence [/B]and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was [B]not only purposeless but also heartless[/B]–a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, [B]humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us[/B]. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, [B]there was no divine plan to guide us[/B].” ([I]Biology[/I]: Discovering Life by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st ed., D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; (2nd ed.. D.C. Heath and Co., 1994), p. 161; emphases in original.) “Adopting this view of the world means accepting not only the processes of evolution, but also the view that the living world is constantly evolving, and that [B]evolutionary change occurs without any goals[/B].’ The idea that [B]evolution is not directed [/B]towards a final goal state has been more difficult for many people to accept than the process of evolution itself.” (Life: The Science of Biology by William K. Purves, David Sadava, Gordon H. Orians, & H. Craig Keller, (6th ed., Sinauer; W.H. Freeman and Co., 2001), pg. 3.) “The ‘blind’ watchmaker is natural selection. [B]Natural selection is totally blind [/B]to the future. “[B]Humans are fundamentally not exceptional [/B]because we came from the same evolutionary source as every other species. It is natural selection of selfish genes that has given us our bodies and brains “Natural selection is a bewilderingly simple idea. And yet what [B]it explains is the whole of life[/B], the diversity of life, the apparent design of life.” (Richard Dawkins quoted in [I]Biology [/I]by Neil A. Campbell, Jane B. Reese. & Lawrence G. Mitchell (5th ed., Addison Wesley Longman, 1999), pgs. 412-413.) “Of course, no species has 'chosen’ a strategy. Rather, its ancestors 'little by little, generation after generation' merely wandered into a successful way of life through the action of random evolutionary forces. Once pointed in a certain direction, a line of evolution survives only if the cosmic dice continues to roll in its favor. [B]“[J]ust by chance[/B], a wonderful diversity of life has developed during the billions of years in which organisms have been evolving on earth. (Biology by Burton S. Guttman (1st ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pgs. 36-37.) “It is difficult to avoid the speculation that Darwin, as has been the case with others, found the implications of his theory difficult to confront. “The real difficulty in accepting Darwins theory has always been that it seems to diminish our significance. Earlier, astronomy had made it clear that the earth is not the center of the solar universe, or even of our own solar system. Now the new biology asked us to accept the proposition that, like all other organisms, [B]we too are the products of a random process that, as far as science can show, we are not created for any special purpose or as part of any universal design[/B].” (Invitation to Biology, by Helena Curtis & N. Sue Barnes(3rd ed., Worth, 1981), pgs. 474-475.)[/QUOTE]relatd
May 23, 2022
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"Do you have any idea what you’re saying? As a Catholic?" Relatd, I do. I've been thinking about this stuff every day for many years. Evolution in textbooks doesn't diminish faith because it is far-fetched story-telling to anyone who examines it for more than 10 minutes. Some people buy the lie, though, because they don't know any better. That's a different issue. And I never said ID has nothing to do with faith. I said it makes theology reasonable from a scientific perspective. I said ID having boundaries doesn't diminish faith. It just organizes thought about these issues. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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"what we can conclude is limited" Obviously not. ID is sitting in a box marked "NO Philosophy or Religion HERE" but what do people use science for? Nothing? It's not used to describe reality? Does ID describe reality better than evolution? If it does, then who or what is the Intelligence? Nothing? Aliens. We sure hope it isn't God?relatd
May 23, 2022
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Some people act as those who advocate ID do not carry it forward past ID. That's absurd. Nearly everyone makes other judgements but they are not based on ID. So. they are not relevant here. If one is a Christian. then there is a three step process 1) There is a creator/God - definitely supported by ID 2) Christ is God or Christ was sent by God - The whole New Testament is about this - nothing in ID says anything about this. 3) Christ started a religion - fairly obvious from the New Testament - nothing in ID says anything about this. Now people who are from other religions would all benefit from 1) but 2) and 3) are directly relevant to Christianity and not to another specific religion and definitely not relevant to ID. Points 2) and 3) can be modified to acceptance of other religions but would also have nothing to do with ID. So why have that debate here on anything religious? Has anyone on this thread that endorsed ID denied the first point? No! What has come up is what we can include about the creator identified from ID. Definitely more than just existence but certainly a long way from everything. People definitely want to put their spin on this but what we can conclude is limited. Aside: I used to believe in evolution by Darwinian methods. I read about an evolutionary biology teacher who got censored for changing his mind at one of the University of California campuses I looked into it and then went to a discussion of ID at the New School in New York City with Dembski, Behe and Meyer. I left convince that Darwinian evolution was bogus and hooked on ID. My faith did not change one iota as a result. Final aside: Chuckdarwin if all wrong as usual. He's got it backwards.jerry
May 23, 2022
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Andrew at 120, Do you have any idea what you're saying? As a Catholic? Ken Miller will tell you that science, meaning evolution, as presented in Biology textbooks does not diminish faith. Where is God in theistic evolution? Can anyone show precisely where God did - in reality - anything? As far as I can tell, there is no way to tell. So 'theistic evolution' is a worthless idea. Pope Benedict pointed out that there is a demarcation line between science and faith. However, he also said: “We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God.”relatd
May 23, 2022
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SA/95 A great analogy for how ID has been corrupted by those that choose to conflate ID and religion, is how the phrase "Black lives matter", with which virtually everyone agrees, morphed into the political movement, Black Lives Matter, which has become one of the most divisive political movements of our times.chuckdarwin
May 23, 2022
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Value Added Comment: I think popular culture has attempted to condition us into thinking science has all the answers, they just haven't been articulated yet. That notion is totally wrong. So I wouldn't try to attempt to make science apply everywhere. It doesn't. Theology is more important. I prefer not to diminish theology by squeezing it to fit in a smaller box. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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Related, we are looking at distinct disciplines, where there is usually little understanding of philosophy, and typically even less so in regard to theology. Sciences seek to accurately describe, explain/ interpret/ understand and predict the world on empirical evidence. philosophy is a root, cross cutting discipline that addresses hard, fundamental questions with an emphasis on comparative difficulties of worldviews in regard to factual adequacy, coherence, explanatory power. Theology seeks to study God and things of God in the context of a religious tradition and often scriptures. They may contribute to one another and may look at the same issues but they work differently and may or may not come to a consensus. It is in that context that I pointed out that the design inference is an observational evidence based conclusion regarding causal process, intelligently directed configuration or contrivance. On the world of cell based life it is plausible that a molecular nanotech lab several generations beyond Venter could explain what we see. As in the days of Plato, it is cosmological evidence that points beyond the observed cosmos. Coming forward from reality root, that gives us a candidate to beat for the lab to work with cell based life. I would point to other issues tied to moral government of our rational, responsible freedom and what they call for in the root of reality. The inherently good, utterly wise and awesomely powerful with deep knowledge, also being necessary - independent and eternal -- being. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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"So science is not used in real life? It is not used to interprtet reality by average people?" Relatd, It is. But what the Average Joe regards as science has limitations. It is capable of answering some questions in a certain way, but not all questions. I think the issue in this thread is simply one of where ID's borders are. As a staunch Catholic Christian, I have no problem with ID having lines of demarcation. That it does, does not diminish faith in any way. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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Silver Asiatic Does biology tell us the difference between a theistic God and a Deist God? What else does biology tell us about the nature and attributes of God?
:) First, you are looking in the wrong place. Don't look at the bacteria that are studied under microscope turn the microscope to study yourself and you'll discover much more about creator than the complexity of bacteria . Secondly, there is no difference whatsoever between atheism , deism, flyingspagettism .
A theistic argument against deism has to use philosophy and theology – not ID science.
You use philosophy to accuse other people that use philosophy? Make sense.Lieutenant Commander Data
May 23, 2022
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Andrew at 116, So science is not used in real life? It is not used to interprtet reality by average people? Which of the following is true: 1) Living things only look designed but are not in reality. 2) Living things are designed and we have evidence of this - in reality. By the way: 1) Do you have an ancestor that was an ape-like creature or a lemur-like creature? 2) Why not?relatd
May 23, 2022
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Viola Lee at 111, Let religion take over means what? Please define. Science stops because "religion takes over"? Not likely.relatd
May 23, 2022
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"If ID points to an intelligence, who do you think people will choose?" Relatd, SA is right. ID doesn't provide further info to help in the choosing. Theology would based on info there. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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VL, Philip Johnson's actual strategy, in reply to Lewontin, and in response to tactics that would have landed stock promoters in deep hot water:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original -- the context is Lewontin in NYRB] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses." [NB: I am aware that Rational Wiki has backed away, un-announced, from the cat-out-of-the-bag direct phrasing that was in place a few years ago. That historic phrasing is still valid as a summary of what is going on.]
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And it is not an appeal to ever- diminishing- ignorance to point out that design, rooted in intelligent action, routinely configures systems exhibiting functionally specific, often fine tuned complex organisation and associated information. Nor, that it is the only observed cause of such, nor that the search challenge of our observed cosmos makes it maximally implausible that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can account for such.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
The various pretzel-twisted strawman caricatures as in Wikipedia fail. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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SA at 109, ID will not help anyone figure out who that is? That's not logical. People, meaning average people, will and are connecting it to some form of beyond-Human intelligence, usually God. You are just repeating a tired old line. Science is meant to be a useful tool. If ID points to an intelligence, who do you think people will choose? Aliens? Based on what? Beings from other dimensions? Based on what? Or God. Based on the Bible?relatd
May 23, 2022
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KF
As origins sciences speak to core philosophy which in turn engages theology, there are extensions to those fields of study
Right. For example, a person could evaluate Plato's idea of God versus traditional Theism.
Is the platonic metaphysical vision compatible with that of Traditional Theism? Some would contend that the two are compatible, while others would argue to the contrary. https://iep.utm.edu/pla-thei/
A study of the bacterial flagellum is not going to help us on this. A theological analysis is not what ID is built for.Silver Asiatic
May 23, 2022
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Relatd, kindly note 106 above. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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97 says,
SA, “ID is just a scientific project – nothing more.” Do you honestly believe that actual people stop at ‘nothing more’?
This was Philip Johnson's strategy from the beginning: establish "scientifically" that there is a creator, defeat naturalism, and then let religion take over.Viola Lee
May 23, 2022
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SA at 108, So in 'neat and tidy land,' ID stops developing as a science but just turns into a religion debate? Seriously? Everyone stops posting here because everything scientific about ID has been discovered?relatd
May 23, 2022
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relatd
Imagine people waking up to the idea of “something/one designed me?”
ID is not going to help you figure out who that is. All ID gives you is evidence of intelligent design in nature. So, there's a designer. You now have to go elsewhere to investigate the candidates. More biology and physics are not going to give you anything.Silver Asiatic
May 23, 2022
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Jerry @104 I fully agree. ID is not a religious project meant to prove who God is or what religion is true. If ID wins, this site goes away and IDists will argue with each other about God. But that's a step forward since those IDists will be former materialists and atheists. So, it will be about pantheism or polytheism or deism or Allah or Judaism or Protestantism ... etc. Discussions moved to religious and apologetic blogs and sites.Silver Asiatic
May 23, 2022
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Jerry at 104, So just forget about ID in real life? It's just "science" so leave it there? Does ID describe scientific findings better than Blind, Unguided Chance - that has no goal? Food fight? You bet. Imagine people waking up to the idea of "something/one designed me?" Oh my Darwin! Your choices are: 1) God - gee, we hope not. 2) Aliens - so who designed them? 3) Sentient robots from Earth's future - so who designed them? If the answer is 1) - !!!!!!!!! - OR !!!!!!!!!???? Now what do I do? I'm accountable to someone? Oh no!!!!!relatd
May 23, 2022
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Relatd, the design inference is an operation of science, on tested reliable sign. A postulational framework, cf OP here, builds from that to frame a research programme or theory that interfaces with several design friendly sciences. Thanks to cosmology that already includes physics and chemistry. Soon, thanks to OoL issues . . . by definition, physics and chemistry with a generous helping of thermodynamics . . . and given the copious coded algorithmic information in the cell, that will include biology. Indeed as the codes are the earliest texts, we have enfolded SETI and given it success (though in an unexpected place, cells in our bodies); SETI obviously being a design friendly science. Information theory, communication and cybernetics are already in the fold; ponder how one identifies signal and noise to measure signal to noise ratio. As History is the study of the past decisively informed by text, we have bridged to a central art. Archaeology and forensics are already in the fold. As origins sciences speak to core philosophy which in turn engages theology, there are extensions to those fields of study; just as the failed, self-refuting, bankrupt paradigm, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers similarly extends across the academy and culture alike. No wonder there is a movement that embraces the paradigm and moves beyond school of thought to cultural movement. However, it remains that the core is the design inference on tested, reliable sign. Hence the emphasis of this blog. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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SA at 103; " I’ve read several ID books and haven’t seen it (an inference to God)." SA at 95 "It seems that Stephen C. Meyer’s version is (God)." Oh well,,, Over and out.bornagain77
May 23, 2022
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Here is a quote I made 16 years ago and it is playing out to some extent on this thread
I have often said here that if ID ever wins the day then the real food fight would begin. It would be a religious debate and this site would then be of no use so it would take place elsewhere. But such debates have been going on for over 2000 years so it would not be new.... ID is not about any religious belief other than there is a designer but whoever designed the universe has to be a very powerful intelligence.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ernst-mayr-at-the-millennium-a-study-in-misplaced-triumphalism/#comment-50559jerry
May 23, 2022
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BA77
several people on this thread have tried to distance ID from the Theological, and/or philosophical, implications
Ok, you see ID as a philosophical and theological project that uses science. So biological science tells you about who the designer is. So why not just say that? Why use the term "intelligent designer" when you mean God? Also, where in the scientific literature is the analysis of the deistic God versus the theistic God that ID identifies? In fact, where in ID literature does it tell us about the characteristics of this this Theistic God that ID explains? I've read several ID books and haven't seen it. Behe, for example, says nothing about the attributes and identity of the God that ID scientifically demonstrates. Why not?Silver Asiatic
May 23, 2022
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JH, doubling down on corrected error does not transmute what you wish to suggest into truth. Ironically, you appeal again to what you would refute thus ending in incoherence, in a way that signals to us that you will insistently speak with disregard to truth, right reason and fairness. Not a good place to be, but you wish to be there, sad. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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ID, as a foundation, can, and often does, lead to other things. ID as nothing more than 'science' is just a standalone concept that, according to some, can never be connected to philosophy or religion. Deism - the maybe god. OK. But in the end, ID is a development that cannot be left entirely by itself, or Richard Dawkins can keep saying that living things only look designed but are not - in reality. That is quite obviously false.relatd
May 23, 2022
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Several people on this thread have tried to distance ID from the clear theological implications inherent from the empirical evidence. Going so far as to label such an inference to Theism as being "philosophical and theological', not scientific. Yet this is to misunderstand the scientific method itself. Inference to the best explanation, and/or inference to the best worldview, is literally built into the 'bottom up' inductive reasoning that lies behind the scientific method itself. “Bottom up” inductive reasoning is, practically speaking, a completely different form of reasoning than the ‘top down’ deductive reasoning of the ancient Greeks in which they “pronounced on how the world should behave, with insufficient attention to how the world in fact did behave.” (Henry Schaefer)
Deductive vs. Inductive reasoning – top-down vs. bottom-up – graph https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4b/b7/75/4bb77537cdd971924fb52de1070b4120.jpg
As wikipedia itself, (no friend of ID), puts it, "Inductive reasoning is distinct from deductive reasoning. While, if the premises are correct, the conclusion of a deductive argument is certain, the truth of the conclusion of an inductive argument is probable, based upon the evidence given."
Inductive reasoning Inductive reasoning is a method of reasoning in which the premises are viewed as supplying some evidence, but not full assurance, of the truth of the conclusion.[1] It is also described as a method where one’s experiences and observations, including what are learned from others, are synthesized to come up with a general truth.[2] Many dictionaries define inductive reasoning as the derivation of general principles from specific observations (arguing from specific to general), although there are many inductive arguments that do not have that form.[3] Inductive reasoning is distinct from deductive reasoning. While, if the premises are correct, the conclusion of a deductive argument is certain, the truth of the conclusion of an inductive argument is probable, based upon the evidence given.[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
Specifically, In his book “Novum Organum” (which is translated "New Method"), Francis Bacon, a devout Christian who is widely regarded as the father of the scientific method itself, championed an entirely new method of inductive reasoning, (where repeated experimentation played a central role in one’s reasoning to a general truth), over and above Aristotle’s deductive reasoning, (where one’s priori assumption of a general truth, (i.e. your major premises), played a central role in one’s reasoning), which had been the dominate form of reasoning that had been around for 2000 years at that time. As the following article succinctly put it, "Sir Francis Bacon advanced a new way of philosophical inquiry known as inductive reasoning, in which the inquirer comes to a probable conclusion based on several specific observations."
Deductive and Inductive Reasoning (Bacon vs Aristotle – Scientific Revolution) – video Excerpt: Deductive reasoning, which uses general premises to arrive at a certain conclusion, has been around since Aristotle. In his book Novum Organum (1620, translated ‘new method’), Sir Francis Bacon advanced a new way of philosophical inquiry known as inductive reasoning, in which the inquirer comes to a probable conclusion based on several specific observations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdpPABoTzE
Thus in conclusion, although several people on this thread have tried to distance ID from the Theological, and/or philosophical, implications inherent from the entire body of empirical evidence, the fact of the matter is that the inductive reasoning, that lays behind the scientific method itself, is in fact itself a method of "philosophical inquiry" in which a person reasons to 'a general truth', 'a probable conclusion', and/or to a general worldview from the empirical evidence. In short, inference to the best worldview and/or inference to the best explanation is literally bulit into the foundation of the scientific method itself. And I hold that Stephen Meyer is correct in holding that the worldview of Theism provides, by far, the most satisfactory explanation of the entire body of scientific evidence that we now have in hand,,, over and above the competing worldviews of Deism, Pantheism and Naturalism. Stephen Meyer discusses those four competing worldviews and how they measure up to the scientific evidence that we now have in hand in the following video:
The Four Great Discoveries of Modern Science That Prove God Exists ('competing worldviews', 3:15 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hls6dawWQL0&t=194s
bornagain77
May 23, 2022
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SA at 98, So ID helps people with nothing? This is just a restatement of the old 'science is over here and religion is over there.' Not credible or logical.relatd
May 23, 2022
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09:15 AM
9
09
15
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 7

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