Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Faith and Reason in the OOL Context

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Paul Giem’s comment to my Faith and Reason post below is so good, I thought it deserved its own post. Read on to see how Paul demonstrates decisively that in the origin of life context (OOL) the materialists’ faith commitment is the sort of blind-leap-in-the-dark-in-the-teeth-of-the-evidence stretch of which they delight in accusing theists of making.

Paul is responding to a comment from Tom MH:

Tom MH,
It does seem like we share the axiom that the universe is rational, although we need to explore precisely what that means.
Does that mean that the universe is self-explanatory? If Big-Bang cosmology is correct, then there was a time when the universe was not self-explanatory. One can postulate a God, or multiple universes, or a super-universe. But the universe we know cannot explain itself, when pushed back beyond some 13.7 billion years. So, unless one is prepared to challenge Big-Bang cosmology, one must admit that rationality (for the universe) does not entail complete obedience to natural law (the laws of physics as we understand laws) and nothing else. For the laws of physics fail at the moment of the Big Bang. That’s why it is called a singularity.
Are there any other times at which there is evidence for a singularity? Are there any other times when the laws of physics fail to explain the observed phenomena? Probably the best candidate for such a time is at the origin of life. Consider three postulates:
1. Life exists at present.
2. Life could not have existed for a substantial period of time after the Big Bang.
3. Life comes only from life.
I believe we can agree on the first postulate. I believe that, given the Big Bang, we can agree on the second postulate. The real question is whether the third postulate is secure.
As you know, there was a time when the third postulate was believed to be demonstrably false. That time is gone. In fact, the whole point of evolution would be moot if the third postulate were routinely violated. Need some new phyla in the Cambrian? No problem. Trilobites, starfish, clams, hallucinogenia, and hagfish can just spontaneously pop into being. No need to postulate, let alone find, intermediates between ediacaran life and trilobites, for instance. For that matter, no need to find intermediates between reptiles and birds, or between chimpanzees and humans. They just spontaneously generated. The point is that it is generally recognized that the spontaneous generation of life is at least difficult and rare.
Is it even possible without the intervention of some kind of intelligence? We certainly don’t know the answer is yes by any kind of scientific experimentation. In fact, all our experiments to date argue that the answer is no. So if there is to be any evidence for the belief in abiogenesis, it must (at present) come from theory.
But as you also probably know, there is no coherent theory that explains the origin of life from non-life without intelligence either. Otherwise, Harverd scientists would not have gotten their grant to produce such a theory.
And the obstacles in the way of such a theory are formidable. They include (not an exhaustive list):
1. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce all the amino acids used in life.
2. Miller-Urey apparati produce numerous other compounds not used in life, and some that are toxic (the most prominent one being hydrogen cyanide).
3. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce sugars in the presence of ammonia, which is required for producing amino acids.
4. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce all the bases needed for DNA and RNA (Adenine, (HCN)5, being the only one made in appreciable amounts).
5. No known reaction will add bases to the 1-position of ribose (even living organisms do not synthesize the nucleosides that way, using either a complicated synthesis for adenine and guanine, or orotic acid for uridine and cytidine).
6. There is no known process for consistently forming one chirality (left-handed versus right-handed) of biochemical compounds from racemic (non-chiral or mixed chiral) reagents, outside of life itself.
7. There is no known way to get nucleoside triphosphates from nucleosides other than biochemically.
8. When nucleosides polymerize naturally into RNA, they form 2?-5? linkages rather than the 3?-5? linkages normally found in RNA.
9. When RNA is formed by RNA polymerase, shorter RNA molecules outcompete longer ones.
10. Reasonable requirements for the specificity of RNA required for the origin of life are vastly beyond the probabilistic resources of the universe.
11. Even given all the ingredients for life, life will still not spontaneously reorganize. That is why canned fool can sit on the shelf indefinitely without spoiling.
Thus all the evidence we have points to postulate 3 above being correct; life only comes from life. This appears to point to another singularity, this time after the universe began.
Postulating a material intelligence (as Dawkins allowed) doesn’t solve the problem. For then that intelligence must have arisen via some mechanism also. If it is life, then we still must allow for its spontaneous generation, or else a singularity for it. Non-living intelligence is even more of a reach. To postulate that computers, for example, can evolve without intelligent (e. g., from people) input completely strains credulity. And computers cannot have made it through the Big Bang.
So we are left with three alternatives.
1. There are laws of which we are totally ignorant that can produce life from non-living material, without the intervention of intelligence.
2. Life arose through a singularity with no cause, sometime after the universe was formed (implying a break in rationality).
3. Life arose through the action of an intelligent agent, whose intelligence is not dependent upon the organization of matter (which would make that agent supernatural).
Option 2, it seems to me, is irrational, and concedes a universe that is at least partly irrational. Option 3 is not irrational, but is not materialistic, postulating an entity or entities that is/are not restricted to the material. That is, it is rational, but not materialistic.
Option 1 is rational in one sense; we know that our information is incomplete, and this could be one more area where our information is incomplete. And belief in abiogenesis allows us to view the universe as completely (well, except for quantum mechanics and the Big Bang itself), explained by cause-effect relations.
But it is heavily faith-based. We have no experimental evidence for this belief, and the theoretical problems appear insoluble. We have here belief against all the evidence, analogous to the most daring leaps of religious faith imaginable, that is to say, faith not only without evidence but in the teeth of evidence. And it is even worse; there is no appeal to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining. It is a miracle without God.
The rationale that I have seen for this leap of faith is usually that “science” has solved all previous problems and will solve this one too. But this argument is wrong, on two counts. First, even if successful, it would only establish that there was relative parity between the argument for the supernatural origin of life and those for abiogenesis. We would still be completely dependent on faith to believe in abiogenesis.
Second, and perhaps more importantly, “science” has in fact not solved all previous problems. Science has come up to a stone wall regarding the origin of the universe. In fact, “science” has come up to several difficult obstacles, issued promissory notes, and moved on without actually solving the problems. The origin of the Cambrian fauna is something that non-interventionalist evolutionary theory has simply postulated without fossil evidence. The origin of the flagellum in a step-by-step manner has never actually been demonstrated (the best try, that of Matzke, was actually a leap-by-leap explanation, and even then without any experimental evidence to back up his scenario). This insistence that nature must be self-contained is in fact faith against the weight of evidence.
Now if you want to believe in abiogenesis by faith, I won’t begrudge you. But some of us prefer to be a little more evidence-based.

Comments
KF and StephenB, thanks again for your comments and insights. I only wish I could return what I have gained by reading your patient and numerous posts on a variety of subjects. In this I must be content only to take, but ask you to remember the words of the greatest of men (and hardly just a man) as quoted by the apostle Paul: "It is more blessed to give than to receive."Apollos
July 22, 2008
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PS: Oh, hi StephenB, I see we share both insomnia and thoughts, yet again!kairosfocus
July 22, 2008
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Atticus [et al]: Pardon a late intervention, after a few days of lurking. It might, first, be useful for you to take a look at the linked in the LH col through my handle, where you will find in-page links to discussions of many of the points you have raised. [BTW, UD "staffers," this again underscores the value of a good FAQ here . . . .]. Next, the key OOL issue is that wee observe that cell-based life constitutes an information system exhibiting functionally specified, complex information beyond the reasonable reach of chance +/or necessity. We routinely observe -- we live in a world in which intelligent agents are per empirical observation and personal experience known to exist [and, BTW, that is I believe the sense of the somewhat ambiguous expression "intelligence is natural" in the cite you use just above] -- that such FSCI, routinely, is the product of agency. How do we know that such FSCI is beyond the reach of chance + necessity on the gamut of our observed universe? That's where the Dembski type universal probability bound comes in:
1 --> We know that mechanical necessity shows itself in natural regularities, e.g. heavy objects fall if unconstrained. 2 --> High contingencies are the product of chance ort agency: e.g. the set of uppermost faces for a cluster of 400 dice can be set by chance and/or by agency, but if you toss them out of a box, fall they will. 3 --> If for instance the 400 dice show a set of uppermost faces that expresses a specific coded message, it will arguably be isolated to better than 1 in 10^150. [6^400 ~ 7.78*10^466.] 10^150, the contingency space of about 500 binary state elements, is more or less the number of quantum states accessible by our observed universe across its credible lifespan. 4 --> But, intelligent agents routinely produce messages isolated to such a degree. 5 --> In the case of life forms, we can look at simply the DNA chain length [which of course corresponds to RNA chain length too]. 6 --> Assessments of requisites of life function tend to run into a lower bound for life forms of order 300 - 500,000 4-state elements. 300k 4-state elements is a config space of order 10^180,000 or so. 7 --> A random walk or equivalent starting from an arbitrary initial location, and involving the physical resources of the observed universe across its lifespan, would be maximally unlikely to find any island of such functionality. 8 --> And that's before we run into the problem that RNA chains would tend to shorten not lengthen, and the even more pressing issues of needing to access homochirality and to synthesise some of the constituent monomers.
And yet, routinely, we empirically observe and know that intelligent agents produce such functionally specified, information-bearing complexity. So, we have a reliable induction that when such FSCI is observed its best, empirically waranted explanation is intelligence. You will also note that this simply rests on intelligence being an empirically observed fact, not on speculations as to its nature and precising definition thereof; beyond being able to function analogously to observed agents. (Indeed, logically, being able to recognise and point out cases of intelligence from cases of non-intelligence is prior to being able to try to verbally specify criteria for reliably distinguishing the two. "Definiton" by example and family resemblance is prior to attempted precise verbal statements . . .) The above chain of reasoning, however, is stoutly resisted by evolutionary materialists and their fellow travellers. This, not because it is an unwarranted inference, but because it is at once fatal to their preferred story of origins. In this agenda, we often see the attempted redefinition of what science is, especially through the backdoor of so-called "methodological naturalism." The basic problem here [cf more serious discussion here] is that it is neither historically nor philosophically well-warranted to define that science should only explain by reference to entities tracing to chance plus necessity acting on a cascade of evolutions from hydrogen to humans. In short, we are looking here at an arbitrary imposition of a question-begging definition, as for instance is at the crux of say the debates over science education in Kansas. It is also at the crux of the seriously unjustified Jones court decision, and the institutional imposition of such an agenda is the essential issue being confronted by Johnson et al when they speak of the definition of science needing to be changed [BACK, actually]. To giove you an idea of what I am talking about, observe the following from reasonably high quality dictionaries predatign the current debates:
science: a branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles involving the systematized observation of and experiment with phenomena, esp. concerned with the material and functions of the physical universe. [Concise Oxford, 1990 -- and yes, they used the "z" Virginia!] scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge [”the body of truth, information and principles acquired by mankind”] involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. [Webster's 7th Collegiate, 1965]
Notice the absence of question-begging philosophical imposition? Especially by contrast with the sort of redefinition currently being championed by the evolutionary materialists and their fellow travellers in say Kansas:
Science is a human activity of systematically seeking natural explanations [i.e. effectively those tracing to chance + necessity only to the exclusion of intelligence . . . ] for what we observe in the world around us . . . As it is practiced in the late 20th and early 21st century [notice the implication that this is a rather recent, historically unjustified imposition . . .], science is restricted to explaining only the natural world, using only natural cause. This is because science currently has no tools to test explanations using non-natural (such as supernatural) causes.
This of course begs the question that there is a very relevant sense of "non-natural" that is being dismissed: intelligent action. Once we can see that intelligence -- per empirical observation [and, I repeat: that is I believe the sense of the somewhat ambiguous expression "intelligence is natural" in the cite you use just above] -- can act into the world, and that it leaves characteristic traces such as FSCI, then we can debate to our hearts' content the specific nature of the agents that have given rise to these traces. But, we must nor beg the question by effectively ruling ahead of the evidence, that we cannot use the prestigious label "science" if one does not confine oneself to inferences that -- by suitable definition -- must fit into an evolutionary materialist worldview. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 22, 2008
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-----Atticus Finch: "Leaders of the movement have shifted to the stance that intelligence is natural, but not material. I don’t know what caused the shift, but I will observe that one of the meanings of “supernatural” is “non-natural,” and that a federal court has ruled that references to the supernatural are intrinsically religious." There are really only two choices for the ID scientist: Define his terms and make his case in that context, or give up hope that Darwinists will honor his definitions and humor them by using theirs. In any case, let’s look at the terms: ID says that there are not two categories, but three, [A] Law, which is a natural cause, [B] chance, which is a natural cause and [C] intelligence, which is a non-natural cause. That means, of course, that either a human agent, a supernatural agent, or even a Divine agent can be a “non-natural” cause for an event. I, for example, am a human agent who designed this paragraph. Because you can detect specifically complex patterns in its construction, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it did not result from a natural cause. Thus, if innovation occurs, whether it comes from the mind of God, or from the mind of man, ID says that the patterns involved will be of a similar texture. It is those very patterns that help us to detect the presence of intelligence from any source at all, Divine or human, and to know that natural forces did not cause the event. Darwinists, however, would like to reframe the issue and change terms so that ID can no longer make its case. By displacing the three-part ID formulation (Law, Chance, Agency) with their own two-part dichotomy (natural-supernatural) they hope to distract attention away from the fact that all intelligence is non-natural and to make it appear that some intelligence is supernatural (God) and some intelligence is natural (human). One way they do that is to say that human intelligence occurs “in nature,” and must, therefore, be natural. Never mind that the term “in nature” has no meaning. So, if ID advocates are changing their approach, (and I would like for you to provide evidence that it has occurred) it must be because they are responding to this same kind of nonsense.StephenB
July 22, 2008
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Eric Anderson: Mind you don't get yourself banned. LOL. Thus sayeth DaveScot (with obvious allusion to a 2000 conference Dembski organized to address The Nature of Nature):
By redefining the nature of nature. NeoDarwinian chance worshippers contradict themselves by saying that intelligent design is supernatural and in the same breath saying that human intelligence which produces intelligent designs evolved naturally. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either intelligence is natural or supernatural. I’m going with what’s behind door number one - intelligence is natural. The nature of nature includes intelligence. It’s proven in at least one case. The only question is whether there’s more than one case.
Think it's just DaveScot? Go to the start of the thread to see a quote of Dembski by Pennock,
So long as methodological naturalism sets the ground rules for how the game of science is to be played, (intelligent design) has no chance (in) Hades.
The source is What Every Theologian Should Know about Creation, Design, and Evolution (1996). From the last paragraph:
The ground rules of science have to be changed. [...] Methodological naturalism asks us for the sake of science to pretend that the material world is all there is. But once science comes to be taken as the only universally valid form of knowledge within a culture, it follows at once that methodological and metaphysical naturalism become for all intents and purposes indistinguishable. They are functionally equivalent. What needs to be done, therefore, is to break the grip of naturalism in both guises, methodological and metaphysical. And this happens once we realize that it was not empirical evidence, but the power of a metaphysical world view that was all along urging us to adopt methodological naturalism in the first place.
DaveScot went to the crux, and so did I. ID goes nowhere as science if it does not insist that information-creating intelligence, and not just material, is natural. Denyse O'Leary says constantly that mind can be studied scientifically, but is not material. According to Google, you have commented on 245 articles at UD. If you do not understand this issue, surely many others also do not. And that is why I have taken the time to put together this response.Atticus Finch
July 22, 2008
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Phil Johnson was instrumental in the founding of the Discovery Institute which is a political action group not an establishment of science or philosophy. The concept of intelligent design itself is far older than any living person. It goes back thousands of years and was called "the argument from design". The evidence presented to support it is all that has changed in the modern era. The bulk of that evidence is now in the nanometer scale molecular machinery common in all living cells and the fine tuning of the physical constants. These things were virtually unknown before the latter half of the 20th century. "Supernatural" is an abused term in this debate. Perhaps for cosmological ID based on the fine tuning of the physical constants, it's a good term but cosmological ID isn't where the controversy is heated. Biological ID is where all the action is at and no one from my camp has been able to show me a single solitary thing about life on this planet that requires a supernatural cause. "Artificial" is the appropriate antonym for "natural" in biological ID. Use of the terms "supernatural" and "intelligent design creationism" are cheap shots employed to win the argument by way of judicial fiat instead of the weight of the evidence. I don't really blame the chance worshippers though. They'd have lost long ago if all they had to defeat ID was the weight of the evidence. If all you have are cheap shots I suppose you're then forced to use them or concede. DaveScot
July 22, 2008
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A quick drive by comment . . . Atticus, you are grasping at straws. Your cite of Johnson is irrelevant to the question at hand, and appears to be included in an attempt to paint some ulterior motive. More germane, neither you, nor anyone else, is currently capable of defining intelligence in physical terms. If intelligence is not in fact a material/physical entity, then not defining it as such is certainly not a problem.Eric Anderson
July 22, 2008
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By the way, I've wondered how a Christian who believes that the Designer of life is God can say that the designing intelligence is natural, rather than supernatural. My best guess is that a Christian might say that the Holy Spirit is God within nature. I have no idea how Jews and Muslims would deal with the idea that God's intelligence is part of nature.Atticus Finch
July 22, 2008
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StephenB (26) comments:
Atticus Finch, for example, wants to know why ID doesn’t define intelligence in physical terms. The obvious answer is because intelligence is not a physical entity. Apparently, he can’t accept the proposition that intelligence can cause physical events without itself being a physical entity.
No, the problem is not mine, but that of the ID movement. The founder of the movement, Phillip Johnson, made it clear that he was out to split the foundations of naturalism. There was a time when William Dembski described intelligence as a "non-natural" source of information (see Intelligent Design Coming Clean, dated 2000). Leaders of the movement have shifted to the stance that intelligence is natural, but not material. I don't know what caused the shift, but I will observe that one of the meanings of "supernatural" is "non-natural," and that a federal court has ruled that references to the supernatural are intrinsically religious. The best thing leading ID theorists have going for them is the "information is physical" slogan of quantum mechanics. The problem there, however, is that there have been strong challenges to that notion, e.g., those of Chris Timpson. Even if there should emerge a consensus among scientists that information is physical "stuff," though not material, it would hardly follow immediately that intelligence, taken as a source of information, could itself be "unembodied" (to borrow a term from Dembski).Atticus Finch
July 22, 2008
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Tom MH, (20) Thanks for your gracious concession, and thanks for your understanding of my analogy. And thanks for your final question:
What is the threshold for invoking divine intervention, or declaring some event or phenomenon to be beyond the reach of natural law?
It is actually a very difficult question, and even if we get it theoretically right, there is no guarantee that our theory can always be put into practice properly. But I'll try to give a few principles that seem sound from my point of view. First, miracles (defined as the violation of known laws of nature) should not be ruled out a priori. One can only do so on a faith basis, and as we have seen, at present that is against the vast weight of the evidence. Besides, if one does so, one has a position that is basically impervious to scientific evidence, and therefore not self-correcting, which has been claimed as another of the hallmarks of religion and not of science. Second, one should expect that miracles are rare, and a rebuttable presumption should exist that a given event is not a miracle. (If we make it an irrebuttable presumption, we have moved from methodological naturalism to philosophical naturalism, and therefore more than science can justify). Thus belief in miracles doesn't mean the end of science, or that just anything could happen anytime, and that we should live our lives in the expectation of chaos,or that science would be totally destroyed. Third, before one comfortably accepts a miracle, it should make some kind of theological sense. Intelligences generally do things for a reason, and if no reason is apparent for a miracle, it should make us wonder whether we have the facts straight. This puts considerable weight on our having the right theology, and carries the corollary that if our theology is incorrect, we might very well misidentify events as miracles systematically, and misidentify events as miracles that really aren't. But nobody said that this would be easy. Finally, in view of all the variables involved, and our limited knowledge of both science and theology, it behooves all of us to be humble about our opinions in this area and open to correction. That's why I refer to objections rather than dealbreakers. They may be dealbreakers for me at this time, and I may see no way around them, but the evidence could change, and I need to remain open to that possibility. (For that reason, I would not comfortably attribute a beheading to a supernatural entity unless I could make some kind of theological sense of it. Either the person would have to be very bad, and some kind of message would have to be conveyed by the beheading, or there would have to be some reason why a good God would allow a malevolent supernatural entity control over this person, or both. I ma not yet to the point where I am willing to assume that God is not good.) For the rest of you, I have limited time right now, but will try to get to your comments.Paul Giem
July 22, 2008
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Matzke is bluffing, as usual. At the risk of generalizing, in my experience, every time one looks into his grand assertions (including, yes, his "explanation" about the origin of the bacterial flagellum) they fall apart upon careful inspection. On a more general note, let's get real: you don't get specified code from random events culled by selection; and self-organization ideas are, by very definition, anathema to the concept of contingent specified information. Any view to the contrary is simply belief in magic.Eric Anderson
July 22, 2008
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There's another huge "deal breaker". Even in Miller-Urey and subsequent experiments where a small subset of the basic organic molecules are formed they don't form in anywhere near high enough concentration to do anything interesting subsequently.DaveScot
July 22, 2008
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Chemfarmer: Perhaps Tom MH meant that “abiogenesis is a historical fact” in the sense that there was a time when there was no life on our planet, and then there was a time where life existed. I think that is a scenario which most of us would accept. So, unless one believes in panspermia, abiogenesis had to "happen". The problem is "how" and "why" did it happen. If life was intelligently designed, as I believe, it was abiogenesis all the same: intelligently designed abiogenesis. I have often noticed this confusion about two different meanings of the same word. The same problem we can find with the world "evolution". Both "abiogenesis" and "evolution" can mean two different things: a) A mere decsription of a process of natural history. In that sense, abiogenesis is a historical "fact" if one accepts the minimum assumptions specified above, and evolution is a historical "fact" if one accepts common descent. (in a sense, that kind of historical facts are in relity inferences, because the facts themselves, being historical, have not been observed. But the inference here is not explanatory, it only tries to affirm that something happened). b) A specific explanatory theory of how and why those historical facts happened. In that sense, they refer to specific scientific theories about causes. RNA world and darwinian evolution, for example, are specific theories about abiogenesis and evolution. ID is a specific theory about both abiogenesis and evolution. It is important to distinguish between inferences about historical facts (all history and natural history is based on them), where we just try to understand what happened, and inferences about general laws of reality, where we try to understand why things happen, and to build abstract rational models of nature's laws. One of the ways darwinists try to escape the consequences of the logical and empirical faults of their theory is to confound the theory itself with the historical facts of natural history, which are easy to accept, but which demonstrate nothing about causes.gpuccio
July 22, 2008
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Chemfarmer, #28: By "abiogenesis" I was referring to the appearance of life on Earth, regardless of how. In previous posts I (and Paul Giem, I believe) referred to "natural abiogenesis" or "unguided abiogenesis" to refer to abiogenesis via purely natural causes.Tom MH
July 22, 2008
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Jerry, #5: Sorry to join the fun so late, but as an organic chemist I'd say that all 11 are "deal breakers", and I could add several more I think. Tom MH, #7: Who says "abiogenesis is a historical fact"? Wow. Given the state of the "evidence", abiogenesis absolutely falls into the category of faith. Except that some try to promote the idea that faith in science is science, when in fact it is still faith.Chemfarmer
July 21, 2008
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Here is @26 in paragraph form. It is less important to provide an operational definition of intelligence and more important to recognize the fact that we have evidence of its existence even if we know little of its essence. If we fail to acknowledge the existence of non-material minds, we simply cannot make sense out of our world. Atticus Finch, for example, wants to know why ID doesn’t define intelligence in physical terms. The obvious answer is because intelligence is not a physical entity. Apparently, he can’t accept the proposition that intelligence can cause physical events without itself being a physical entity. So, he writes, “people have a strong tendency to assign physical existence to abstractions.” Well, yes, that happens sometimes. But people also tend to assign real existence to non-physical realities, as well they should. The problem is that materialists tend to dismiss non-physical realities solely on the grounds that they are not physical. So they ask for physical definitions of non-physical realities, which is their way of saying that non-physical realities may not be brought to the table as a possible explanation for anything. And so Atticus insists that intelligence is “reified,” which is his way of saying that something unreal (a non physical entity such as the mind) has been elevated to a status that it doesn’t deserve (real). He thinks that we should not consider a mind as a possible cause because it is not a physical cause. Since it is different than other kinds of causes, it should not be thought of as a cause at all. Now think about this for a moment. What happens when a pool shooter pockets the nine-ball? The causal chain of movements (physical events) can be traced all the way back to the mind of a first mover (a non-physical event). The object ball was moved by the cue ball, which, in turn, was moved by the pool stick, which in turn was moved by the player’s body, which in turn was moved by the player’s intelligence. Under the circumstances, is it not fair to assign intelligence as a first cause here? Now the materialist will say that, in one way, the players brain was the cause of the events, and, in another way, that it was the effect of prior causes leading up to it. As fortunes plaything, the player acted out of necessity. His movements were all part of a chain of physical events that finally played themselves out without his intent, approval, or, dare I say it, skill. I assume, then, that materialist/Darwinists never shoot pool. Why would one say to the other, “nice shot?” And why would the recipient of the compliment say, “thank you?” Let’s get real here. Without a prime mover, there is no movement at all. Indeed, the first cause is the most important cause of all.StephenB
July 21, 2008
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It is less important to provide an operational definition of intelligence and more important to recognize the fact that we have evidence of its existence even if we know little of its essence. If we fail to acknowledge the existence of non-material minds, we simply cannot make sense out of our world. Atticus Finch, for example, wants to know why ID doesn’t define intelligence in physical terms. The obvious answer is because intelligence is not a physical entity. Apparently, he can’t accept the proposition that intelligence can cause physical events without itself being a physical entity. So, he writes, “people have a strong tendency to assign physical existence to abstractions.” Well, yes, that happens sometimes. But people also tend to assign real existence to non-physical realities, as well they should. The problem is that materialists tend to dismiss non-physical realities solely on the grounds that they are not physical. So they ask for physical definitions of non-physical realities, which is their way of saying that non-physical realities may not be brought to the table as a possible explanation for anything. And so Atticus insists that intelligence is “reified,” which is his way of saying that something unreal (a non physical entity such as the mind) has been elevated to a status that it doesn’t deserve (real). He thinks that we should not consider a mind as a possible cause because it is not a physical cause. Since it is different than other kinds of causes, it should not be thought of as a cause at all. Now think about this for a moment. What happens when a pool shooter pockets the nine-ball? The causal chain of movements (physical events) can be traced all the way back to the mind of a first mover (a non-physical event). The object ball was moved by the cue ball, which, in turn, was moved by the pool stick, which in turn was moved by the player’s body, which in turn was moved by the player’s intelligence. Under the circumstances, is it not fair to assign intelligence as a first cause here? Now the materialist will say that, in one way, the players brain was the cause of the events, and, in another way, that it was the effect of prior causes leading up to it. As fortunes plaything, the player acted out of necessity. His movements were all part of a chain of physical events that finally played themselves out without his intent, approval, or, dare I say it, skill. I assume, then, that materialist/Darwinists never shoot pool. Why would one say to the other, “nice shot?” And why would the recipient of the compliment say, “thank you?” Let’s get real here. Without a prime mover, there is no movement at all. Indeed, the first cause is the most important cause of all.StephenB
July 21, 2008
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Sorry, boys; resistance is futile. Add the fact of fine-tuning to Paul's admirable summary, and Darwinism begins to look like a fairy tale for those who want to imagine themselves to be "intellectually fulfilled atheists." As for intellect: sure, I can define it. Intellect is the capacity to make value judgments. Calling termite colonies "intelligent" is a species of what used to be called a pathetic fallacy, back in the days before logic succumbed to cleverness.allanius
July 21, 2008
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"I have kept up with competent summaries of the literature (e. g., Orgel), and they give no indication of fundamental breakthroughs. I am curious as to what you saw in Matzke’s review that makes it different from all the rest of the reviews that I have read." Matzke argues convincingly that OOL research has progressed enormously. I have not reread the article, but I believe that you are placing greater emphasis (points 1-4) on Miller-Urey conditions than OOL investigators presently do. I think he addresses your point 6, though you have qualifiers that I don't recall. Your point 8 also looks like something he addressed. - "9. When RNA is formed by RNA polymerase, shorter RNA molecules outcompete longer ones." I would appreciate elaboration -- "outcompete" for what, and under what conditions. - "10. Reasonable requirements for the specificity of RNA required for the origin of life are vastly beyond the probabilistic resources of the universe." Which OOL review did you see this in? Where can I go to see the calculations? Does life originate with self-replicating RNA?Atticus Finch
July 20, 2008
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Paul Giem: "I am not sure where you got the idea that I hate Nick Matzke." It was rhetorical. I had no idea you'd ever said anything about him. Many people here dismiss immediately anything coming from the "PT mafia," and that's why I made the comment.Atticus Finch
July 20, 2008
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The question is, why relegate the resolution of a seemingly unsolvable problem to “miracle”? Tom, once the default assumption of science was that God did it and we should figure out how. Now, the default assumption is that God can't exist. Nobody is relegating OOL to "miracle" in the sense that one can't investigate it. Investigate it all you want. But what happens when the evidence points to God as it now seems to be doing? Should one lose one's job for suggesting so?tribune7
July 20, 2008
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Looks like Paul Giem has his work cut out for him over here - Good luck man. Anyways, I thought it was a brilliant response.jpark320
July 20, 2008
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Paul, Your criticisms of my uneducated musings on abiogenesis, unwisely posted here (twice!), are fair. I shall avoid further unsupported forays into biochemistry, which is not my specialty, as you amply demonstrated. However, before I retire back to lurkdom, I wonder if I might borrow your forensic example, and try to use it to make the point I wanted to make:
Someone had to get in somehow, and all we have done is rule out certain ways of getting in.
Yes. We know abiogenesis happened; the question is how. You consider divine intervention the leading candidate, obviously. The "brother with the key" in your analogy, yes? Let me modify the scenario somewhat, then. Suppose there had been no brother, and no duplicate key had been found, and no other apparent means of entry to the room were evident. The detectives would have had a more difficult problem to solve...and maybe a problem that they could not solve, and therefore one they might relegate to the cold case files pending discovery of further evidence. (I believe this would make what is commonly known in fiction as a "locked room mystery".) We would not expect them to conclude the death-by-beheading was a miracle. I suppose beheading-by-miracle would not be something anyone would want to conclude, but let's not strain the analogy. The question is, why relegate the resolution of a seemingly unsolvable problem to "miracle"? Don't we have ample record of scientific questions -- inquiries into the nature of "X", whatever X might be -- which were for a time unsolved and seemingly unsolvable, and which were ultimately resolved through theory and measurement? And don't there continue to persist further scientific problems, unsolved and seemingly unsolvable, that confound scientific reasearch today? What is the threshold for invoking divine intervention, or declaring some event or phenomenon to be beyond the reach of natural law? More of a question than I point, I suppose, but there it is.Tom MH
July 20, 2008
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A couple points that are relevant: There are no accepted definitions for the following terms: science, life, intelligence and species. All of which enter into our debates nearly every day. We use them but without any common acceptance of just what each is or means. Second, I read Nick Matzke's long discussion on OOL quickly and it seems it is something that should be discussed separately or even on this thread since it is apropos. The thing that caught my eye was the claim that they have a handle on how DNA was built. Matzke said: "Each of these areas has developed into a subfield which has experienced major research discoveries in recent years. For example, on the origin of the genetic code, this paper assembles dozens of indicators on the order in which amino acids were added, step-by-step, to the genetic code and shows that the evidence strongly supports a fairly specific scenario (which shares many similarities with early, more speculative scenarios built on the basis of just a few lines of evidence). Ergo, we don’t just know that the Last Common Ancestor of Life was simple, and that it’s ancestor was simpler, and that it’s ancestor was an even simpler RNA-dominated critter; we even have a decent idea about the order of the steps by which the genetic code itself evolved." Lots of interesting stuff but it may be that Matzke has a knack of making the irrelevant sound important or consequential. I would be especially interested in just how they think the genetic code was built because that is one of the main stumbling blocks for OOL.jerry
July 20, 2008
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AF #16 I don't think the "invocations of intelligence" really come into play here -- the average Darwinian positions were formed in ignorance many years back, and remain to be held in spite of the evidence: that it is even possible to do things stepwise with or without intelligence. By all indications there are no routes between species or life and inanimate matter that can be bought, begged or stolen. The insistence of not only no intelligence, but even the possibility of abiogenesis becomes forced and hollow when, at a every turn, we not only find more complexity, but that we can only to expect discoveries of increased complexity to continue indefinitely. It becomes near self-parody when, in defense of a lack of evidence for the OOL, that a dogmatically interpreted fossil record is held up a "scientific" evidence. This is about a want for evolution to be true, rather than investing in something that speaks for itself -- even only in terms of it's possibility.wnelson
July 20, 2008
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Atticus Finch, (11), I am not sure where you got the idea that I hate Nick Matzke. I mentioned him only once, not in connection with OOL, and commented that he was one of the few who actually tried to give a step-by-step account of the evolution of a complex biochemical structure, in this case the bacterial flagellum. Just because IMO he failed doesn't mean that I don't respect him for actually trying. I have read a substantial amount, although not a substantial proportion (the literature is vast) of the OOL literature. That reading continues when I become aware of critical points. To expect me, or anyone else, to have read most of the literature on OOL is absurd; it would result in nobody commenting (which is perhaps what it is meant to do). Everyone to a certain extent relies on digests I have kept up with competent summaries of the literature (e. g., Orgel), and they give no indication of fundamental breakthroughs. I am curious as to what you saw in Matzke's review that makes it different from all the rest of the reviews that I have read. Tom MH, I just put in the blockquotes separately so that there was no mistake. I don't know that this is what did it; it is very possible that others also did this and some glitch occurred. We have a problem with induction here. ;)Paul Giem
July 20, 2008
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Paul Giem (and others), It seems to me that your invocations of intelligence as a physical cause reduce to appeal to intuition. The reason is that you have given no scientific definition of "intelligence" as a physical entity. People have a strong tendency to assign physical existence to abstractions. But the fact that people allude to "intelligence" regularly and intuit that it's something physical does not mean that science can treat it as anything but a hypothetical construct. To observe "intelligence" empirically, a scientist must first give it an operational definition. But then it is not "intelligence" that the scientist observes, but what he or she has defined as an indicator of intelligence. This is not something I have made up as an objection to ID. It's what I learned studying psychology, several decades before I first heard of ID. And psychometrists continue to own up to "intelligence" as their construct, rather than claim that it is something that physically inheres in an animal. Reification of "intelligence" is a widespread error, hardly limited to ID proponents. A similar error is to believe that things we say are living have "life" in them. I'm old enough to remember a silly debate as to whether viruses ARE living things. The actual question was whether it would profit science more to define viruses as living or non-living. We call people and termite colonies "intelligent." The fact that we apply a single term to both does not imply that the two have a physical something in common.Atticus Finch
July 20, 2008
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Perhaps I should refuse to respond until you show me how you avoided the blockquote monster!Tom MH
July 20, 2008
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Tom MH, Since you have reposted your reply, I'll try reposting my reply to you. This time I'll try using real blockquote tags. Other than the first line and a correction I had already made, I'll also avoid further editing. We'll see if this goes through. __________ Thank you for your reply. And thank you for the background information, including that you are not a scientist, let alone a biologist. It helps me to understand better where you are coming from. It appears rather that you get your information largely from websites. That explains why the arguments you advanced sounded so familiar to me. They are standard spin. And they are, quite frankly, ludicrous to one who is familiar with the biochemistry involved. But not being able to form independent judgments, you might easily not have noticed. So I’ll try to spell it out for you. The first spin it the attempt to change “in all probability no” into “we don’t know yet.” You say,
Neither yes nor no, but “don’t know”. Certainly HUMAN intelligence has so far failed to accomplish abiogenesis. If and when we do, that success would presumably hold important clues for how it might (or might not) occur in nature.
Again, you say,
No theory, nothing to prove or falsify. We’re still stuck at “don’t know”.
Then, finally, you ask,
What is wrong with “we don’t know”? Or the more hopeful “we don’t know yet”?
This kind of reasoning, if carried on consistently, would destroy science. What it does is take the principle of doubt, turn it inflexible, and apply it with no sense of nuance whatsoever. It is true that philosophy cannot determine the structure of the universe. Socrates and his friends, as recorded by Plato, tried and came up with four elements, and in medicine, this worked out to four humors. We all know how well *that* worked out. It is also true that induction is not absolute, and that we can misunderstand the nature of natural law. Even falsification is not absolute, as the later Popper, and more modern philosophy of science, recognized. The principle of doubt thus has a theoretical basis. But that is not the same thing as saying that all theories have the same base of evidence behind them, and thus can be considered equally probable. The oxygen theory of combustion has vastly more evidence compatible with it than the phlogiston theory. It’s still theoretically possible for the phlogiston theory to be correct, but it is fair to say that believing the phlogiston theory requires faith in the teeth of the evidence. Let me ask you, what would be your reaction if a young earth creationist were to say, without giving any evidence whatsoever, “The only way to show that a scientific theory is valid (or not) is to form the theory, make predictions contingent on the theory, and conduct experiments to confirm or deny the predictions. No such tests of short-age theory of radiometric dating have been performed because AFAIK no such theory exists!” Suppose he went on to say, “What is wrong with ‘we don’t know’? Or the more hopeful ‘we don’t know yet’?” Would he really convince you that you should be effectively agnostic on the question? Wouldn’t you say that there should be at least some evidence before the theory is taken seriously? And yet, with only the change in subject from “short-age theory of radiometric dating” to “natural abiogenesis”, that is exactly the way you have argued. To be fair, the argument has been used before, and it is understandable that you tend to trust scientific websites. But rather than just repeat it, look at the argument critically. I think you’ll agree that it falls apart. It’s important to realize that it doesn’t fall apart just because of faulty philosophical premises. It could be true, and in 1800 it was true, that we didn’t know much about the subject. But it isn’t any more. That’s why I made the list of obstacles in the way of abiogenesis. The argument against abiogenesis is not a philosophical one; it is a scientific one. You have to understand, at least somewhat, the science before you can appreciate its force. Another example of spin is the claim that there is no theory to test. You refer to “RNA World” and “Lipid World” (and you might have referred to “Protein World”). Those are theories. When you say,
No such tests of natural abiogenesis have been performed because AFAIK no such theory exists!
and again,
Nor do I see “belief against all evidence”. Lacking a coherent theory of natural abiogenesis, there is precious little to believe IN, or pose evidences against.
this is simply incorrect. The theories exist. They just aren’t supported by the evidence. To take just one example from the RNA World theory (mentioned in my previous post 63), RNA is supposed to polymerize with greater and greater complexity and function as time goes on according to the theory. Yet when RNA and the raw materials for RNA were put into a solution with RNA polymerase, the RNA sequences consistently shortened to the smallest fragments that would be reliably duplicated by the enzyme. That is, instead of evolution, we have devolution. This is actually understandable as survival of the fittest (who says the fittest has to be the biggest? If the only relevant function is reproduction, then smaller reproduces faster). But it doesn’t help the RNA to develop new functions, which it will need if it is to be a steppingstone to life. This idea that there is no theory to test is pure, unadulterated spin, meant to insulate OOL theories from reality. I’m sorry you got sucked in. You make an observation but miss its significance.
Certainly HUMAN intelligence has so far failed to accomplish abiogenesis. If and when we do, that success would presumably hold important clues for how it might (or might not) occur in nature.
Try substituting "natural production of a quantum computer" for "abiogenesis". Would you really suspend all judgment if you found a quantum computer as to whether it was designed by someone with intelligence, if you found one somewhere, simply because we haven't been able to produce one yet? If We find a functional airplane on a previously unexplored planet, we could be reasonably certain that an intelligence had created it. Wouldn't the case be more, rather than less, certain if we found a quantum computer? The argument that since humans have not created life, nature is more likely to have done so on its own, is a complete non-sequitur. You say regarding the spontaneous generation of life being at least difficult and rare,
It certainly is now, but the pre-biotic world was necessarily different then the world we live in today. The ubiquity of bacteria alone is probably enough to doom any natural abiogenesis today, by turning the requisite pre-biotic materials into dinner.
The websites you visited do not give you the information that you need to make the appropriate judgments, and have thus kept you ignorant. But it has been calculated how thick the "primordial soup" was, and it turns out to be something like 10^-7 molar, more dilute than modern seawater. That is because the same processes that make amino acids, adenine, and so forth, also destroy them. Ultraviolet light in particular breaks down the prebiotic compounds. It isn't just bacteria that destroy those compounds. The fact that the websites you have visited have not mentioned this reveals their bias and/or ignorance. Since you are not really familiar with the evidence, and what familiarity you have is apparently gleaned from one-sided sources, it is perhaps understandable that you say,
"Perhaps the only faith I can see involved is the postulate of the rational universe: that natural events are governed by discoverable rules of regularity. But as I said in an earlier post (in paragraphs presumably not eaten by the blockquote monster), the entire scientific enterprise hangs off that postulate. It’s worked pretty good – why stop now?
Would one of those rules of regularity be that life only comes from life? If so, does that not turn your reasoning on its head? The logic behind this statement is baffling on first reading:
Lists of ways that abiogenesis could not happen do not reduce the likelihood that it DID or COULD happen.
In what other area of science does the elimination of the most promising ways for something to happen make no difference in the probability of something happening? Since we are talking about historical science, let me offer a parallel from forensics. Suppose we gain access to a house to find a body in the living room, missing its head, and when we proceed to the basement, we find the head in a freezer. DNA matches the two, and the person is known not to have a twin, by historical records and his parents' memory. It seems pretty evident that this is homicide. Further examination of the body establishes that the heart was beating when the head was severed. Let's suppose further that the house was inspected just before the deceased went in last night and that nobody was in the house, and the deceased was told not to let anyone in, and that he seemed frightened enough not to do so. Now if the door shows no evidence of forced entry, and the windows are all locked from the inside and not broken, and inspection of the walls shows now holes, and the basement walls and floor show no evidence of tunneling, ordinarily this would count as evidence against forced entry. But here is where it gets sticky. If one is sure that nobody but the deceased had a key, then all of these circumstances do not rule out forced entry, or even make it less likely. Someone had to get in somehow, and all we have done is rule out certain ways of getting in. Maybe there was some passage forced from under the eaves into the attic or something. But if we know that the deceased had a brother who had a key, suspicion has to increasingly fall on the brother. Of course, the brother's lawyer will insist that our inspection hasn't made forced entry any less likely. But this is true only for the lawyer, who "knows" that his client is not guilty and that somehow someone else must have forced entry into the house. Something analogous is happening here. The websites you have read "know" that supernatural intervention does not happen, and therefore abiogenesis must have happened spontaneously, and therefore since its probability is 1 be definition, closing of possible avenues for abiogenesis to have happened just means that we have not discovered the correct one yet. But for one who entertains the possibility that God created life, in whatever way He did, closing off those avenues increases the chances that in fact God did it. This person can easily see that an atheist perspective is being allowed to dictate the interpretation of the data for those who insist that failed theories of the origin of life do not make (unguided) abiogenesis any less likely. One can do that. But let's call it what it is. It is philosophy trumping scientific evidence. In fact, the stance you have outlined strains logic when you think about it. IIn what other field of science could one say, “I am struck by how provisional and tentative they [theories of some kind, in this case abiogenesis] seem. Perhaps a good start, but not yet a real theory." and claim that we are in a state of relative equipoise (as in "No theory, nothing to prove or falsify. We’re still stuck at 'don’t know'.")? You were uncomfortable with what you called my using "singularity" to describe abiogenesis. I am not stating that as a premise , but suggesting that as a possible conclusion. The term "singularity" seems to fit IMO because (1) it happens only once, thus making it a singular event, and (2) at that point one of the apparent laws of nature breaks down, namely, that life only comes from life. I don't have a big problem not using the word if it makes you uncomfortable, but the concepts that support that use would still be valid even if we no longer called the event a singularity. Now if you can demonstrate the spontaneous generation of life, or show that there is a reasonable theoretical pathway from non-life to life, then the conditions that caused me to suggest that the origin of life is a singularity would vanish, and it would no longer be appropriate for me to use the term. But to quote Sir Charles, "I can find out no such case." Finally, you seem to have misunderstood a part of what I said. and countered it with an irrelevancy. The original context of what I said was describing an option for explaining the origin of life:
There are laws of which we are totally ignorant that can produce life from non-living material, without the intervention of intelligence.
This is obviously an option that leaves God out of the picture, at least for the origin of life, except for the possibility that He set up the laws. After criticizing this option for being belief against the experimental and theoretical evidence, I said (and you quoted):
And it is even worse; there is no appeal to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining. It is a miracle without God.
You then wrote two paragraphs. Taking the second one first.
And if you believe that nature – the universe, this world – and the laws that govern it are God’s miracles, then how could abiogenesis be a miracle without God?
The way this is stated, if I believe that nature and the laws that govern it are God’s miracles, then how could abioegnesis be a miracle without God? My answer would be that I don’t think that abiogenesis happened, or at least that if you define abiogenesis as previously non-living matter becoming alive, that God did it. and that therefore for me it is a miracle with God. But perhaps when you used the word “you”, you really meant it is the generic, and it is analogous to “someone’. So what you really meant was “If someone believes that nature and nature’s laws were God’s miracles, that person could not properly say that abiogenesis was a miracle without God.” In that case I would agree, at least in a technical sense. There would be a God, in that case. If life resulted at some point as the result of nature and nature’s laws, it would no longer be a miracle, although if nature and nature’s laws had to be arranged in a very special way in order to make this happen, and it was not reproducible by us at will, then it would still qualify as a miracle, and if we insisted that God could not influence the event, in a sense it would be without God. The other paragraph was,
We didn’t understand the motion of the planets for a very long time. Fifteen centuries stand between Ptolemy and Newton. At what point during that time would it have been reasonable to declare the problem hopeless for natural law and hand it to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining?
Presumably the argument was meant to compare Ptolemy to believers in God’s intervention and Newton to believers in abiogenesis (without God). There are two problems with this assumed parallel and therefore with the argument. First, there is no evidence that Ptolemy believed that God moved the spheres that carried the sun, moon, and planets along, and that in contrast Newton had impersonal laws. Newton did believe in laws, but had no mechanism for gravity, and he certainly believed in God. On the other hand, correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that Ptolemy explicitly said what propelled the moving spheres that he envisioned. Ptolemy’s planetary system is every bit as mechanistic as Newton’s, and perhaps more so. Second, in contrast to the case you cite, where Ptolemy’s theory was supplanted by Newton’s, in science, belief in widespread abiogenesis has been supplanted by a belief that abiogenesis is impossible, except for some areligious believers and their religious imitators who are trying desperately for carve-out so as to keep God’s activity out of the universe, at least after it started. There is the insistence that history is going their way, when it is actually going in the opposite direction. That is a faith-based rewriting of history, and at present qualifies as a distortion. I would still make the point: All the experimental evidence we have points to life only arising from other life. All the theoretical models for how abiogenesis could have happened are presently foundering on the evidence. One can believe in abiogenesis anyway, But that is a faith-based position, against the weight of the evidence. That evidence points to an intelligent designer, and if we discount space aliens as you suggest, it points to a supernatural designer (or Designer).Paul Giem
July 20, 2008
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PG: on post #10 The more you look at the efforts to synthesize life, the more it becomes clear that for traditional evolutionary theory to be correct, the meaning of Chaos and of Order have to be ultimately conflated.wnelson
July 20, 2008
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