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Faith and Reason in the OOL Context

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Paul Giem’s comment to my Faith and Reason post below is so good, I thought it deserved its own post. Read on to see how Paul demonstrates decisively that in the origin of life context (OOL) the materialists’ faith commitment is the sort of blind-leap-in-the-dark-in-the-teeth-of-the-evidence stretch of which they delight in accusing theists of making.

Paul is responding to a comment from Tom MH:

Tom MH,
It does seem like we share the axiom that the universe is rational, although we need to explore precisely what that means.
Does that mean that the universe is self-explanatory? If Big-Bang cosmology is correct, then there was a time when the universe was not self-explanatory. One can postulate a God, or multiple universes, or a super-universe. But the universe we know cannot explain itself, when pushed back beyond some 13.7 billion years. So, unless one is prepared to challenge Big-Bang cosmology, one must admit that rationality (for the universe) does not entail complete obedience to natural law (the laws of physics as we understand laws) and nothing else. For the laws of physics fail at the moment of the Big Bang. That’s why it is called a singularity.
Are there any other times at which there is evidence for a singularity? Are there any other times when the laws of physics fail to explain the observed phenomena? Probably the best candidate for such a time is at the origin of life. Consider three postulates:
1. Life exists at present.
2. Life could not have existed for a substantial period of time after the Big Bang.
3. Life comes only from life.
I believe we can agree on the first postulate. I believe that, given the Big Bang, we can agree on the second postulate. The real question is whether the third postulate is secure.
As you know, there was a time when the third postulate was believed to be demonstrably false. That time is gone. In fact, the whole point of evolution would be moot if the third postulate were routinely violated. Need some new phyla in the Cambrian? No problem. Trilobites, starfish, clams, hallucinogenia, and hagfish can just spontaneously pop into being. No need to postulate, let alone find, intermediates between ediacaran life and trilobites, for instance. For that matter, no need to find intermediates between reptiles and birds, or between chimpanzees and humans. They just spontaneously generated. The point is that it is generally recognized that the spontaneous generation of life is at least difficult and rare.
Is it even possible without the intervention of some kind of intelligence? We certainly don’t know the answer is yes by any kind of scientific experimentation. In fact, all our experiments to date argue that the answer is no. So if there is to be any evidence for the belief in abiogenesis, it must (at present) come from theory.
But as you also probably know, there is no coherent theory that explains the origin of life from non-life without intelligence either. Otherwise, Harverd scientists would not have gotten their grant to produce such a theory.
And the obstacles in the way of such a theory are formidable. They include (not an exhaustive list):
1. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce all the amino acids used in life.
2. Miller-Urey apparati produce numerous other compounds not used in life, and some that are toxic (the most prominent one being hydrogen cyanide).
3. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce sugars in the presence of ammonia, which is required for producing amino acids.
4. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce all the bases needed for DNA and RNA (Adenine, (HCN)5, being the only one made in appreciable amounts).
5. No known reaction will add bases to the 1-position of ribose (even living organisms do not synthesize the nucleosides that way, using either a complicated synthesis for adenine and guanine, or orotic acid for uridine and cytidine).
6. There is no known process for consistently forming one chirality (left-handed versus right-handed) of biochemical compounds from racemic (non-chiral or mixed chiral) reagents, outside of life itself.
7. There is no known way to get nucleoside triphosphates from nucleosides other than biochemically.
8. When nucleosides polymerize naturally into RNA, they form 2?-5? linkages rather than the 3?-5? linkages normally found in RNA.
9. When RNA is formed by RNA polymerase, shorter RNA molecules outcompete longer ones.
10. Reasonable requirements for the specificity of RNA required for the origin of life are vastly beyond the probabilistic resources of the universe.
11. Even given all the ingredients for life, life will still not spontaneously reorganize. That is why canned fool can sit on the shelf indefinitely without spoiling.
Thus all the evidence we have points to postulate 3 above being correct; life only comes from life. This appears to point to another singularity, this time after the universe began.
Postulating a material intelligence (as Dawkins allowed) doesn’t solve the problem. For then that intelligence must have arisen via some mechanism also. If it is life, then we still must allow for its spontaneous generation, or else a singularity for it. Non-living intelligence is even more of a reach. To postulate that computers, for example, can evolve without intelligent (e. g., from people) input completely strains credulity. And computers cannot have made it through the Big Bang.
So we are left with three alternatives.
1. There are laws of which we are totally ignorant that can produce life from non-living material, without the intervention of intelligence.
2. Life arose through a singularity with no cause, sometime after the universe was formed (implying a break in rationality).
3. Life arose through the action of an intelligent agent, whose intelligence is not dependent upon the organization of matter (which would make that agent supernatural).
Option 2, it seems to me, is irrational, and concedes a universe that is at least partly irrational. Option 3 is not irrational, but is not materialistic, postulating an entity or entities that is/are not restricted to the material. That is, it is rational, but not materialistic.
Option 1 is rational in one sense; we know that our information is incomplete, and this could be one more area where our information is incomplete. And belief in abiogenesis allows us to view the universe as completely (well, except for quantum mechanics and the Big Bang itself), explained by cause-effect relations.
But it is heavily faith-based. We have no experimental evidence for this belief, and the theoretical problems appear insoluble. We have here belief against all the evidence, analogous to the most daring leaps of religious faith imaginable, that is to say, faith not only without evidence but in the teeth of evidence. And it is even worse; there is no appeal to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining. It is a miracle without God.
The rationale that I have seen for this leap of faith is usually that “science” has solved all previous problems and will solve this one too. But this argument is wrong, on two counts. First, even if successful, it would only establish that there was relative parity between the argument for the supernatural origin of life and those for abiogenesis. We would still be completely dependent on faith to believe in abiogenesis.
Second, and perhaps more importantly, “science” has in fact not solved all previous problems. Science has come up to a stone wall regarding the origin of the universe. In fact, “science” has come up to several difficult obstacles, issued promissory notes, and moved on without actually solving the problems. The origin of the Cambrian fauna is something that non-interventionalist evolutionary theory has simply postulated without fossil evidence. The origin of the flagellum in a step-by-step manner has never actually been demonstrated (the best try, that of Matzke, was actually a leap-by-leap explanation, and even then without any experimental evidence to back up his scenario). This insistence that nature must be self-contained is in fact faith against the weight of evidence.
Now if you want to believe in abiogenesis by faith, I won’t begrudge you. But some of us prefer to be a little more evidence-based.

Comments
The desire to believe that one species can morph into another rests not in any observation of its possibility, but entirely in the desire to hold God at arm's length, or out of the picture altogether. But, like PG's post said, no one would begrudge anyone's blind leap of faith. Yet the ability for too many evolutionists to stridently claim a surety that they essentially deny by their very presuppositions, is stunning. There is a claim to "reason" but almost immediately that "reason" bars the door way beyond it's perusal, for what may or may not exist. An existential need for surety is claimed to be found it in their "reason," but a quick glance at the wizard behind epistemological curtain ought to give them cause for pause. They have no surety in reason or empiricism, but still miss why they make a very common claim, all the while claiming science as their guide. It's patently foolish, especially with the current paucity of evidence for the possibility of morphing one species into another in any small, stepwise fashion. If there is a surety, it's not coming from the scientific direction, but through the deflection of an existential threat. It is stunning that a dogmatic interpretation of the fossil record should be supportable in public by only assuming or pretending that we have any hint of what might be a viable path from rocks to Raphael, or from ANY species to ANY other, however small. There is nothing out there, for any organism, to give any indication that this is possible. We don't see it once, or anywhere. With all the proc time out there, you would think someone, somewhere could build/brute force a bridge on paper, one mutation, etc., at a time. But we hear nothing of this in the news, we hear of no one getting close to this route or that. Reshuffling information is fine, until you go back to a point where it needs creation. In the meantime we are left with the likes of malaria resistance, and the recent possible bacteria jump -- but at rates that will never move the evolutionary ball much of anywhere in the time given. There are simply no viable answers being offered, only dogmatic allusions to something we might find "somewhere," "sometime" in the future -- if only their dogmatic interpretation of the fossil record proves correct. When you finally chase your average evolutionist back to the abiogenesis porch (you can chase a dog all over town...etc.) something becomes very clear: once you strip away the desire for holding God at arms' length, there is very little left to the theory. About the only legitimacy than can be claimed is a dogmatic interpretation of the fossil record.wnelson
July 20, 2008
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Paul Giem, Your notion of the state of OOL research is outdated. Even if you hate Nick Matzke, there is no denying he has given a remarkable update on OOL (close to the beginning of the article). If you really want to bash OOL, you should read the primary literature constantly, and not rely on the digests of others.Atticus Finch
July 20, 2008
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jerrry (5 and 6) and gpuccio (8), It varies as to how much of a dealbreaker each one is, and for which subtheory. For example, obstacles 7, 8, and 9 are all dealbreakers for the RNA World subtheory, but don't have direct applicability to lipid or protein theories. Obstacle 1 is primarily a problem for protein-first scenarios. As I noted, this is not an exhaustive list. Obstacle 12 could be that proteins do not spontaneously form out of amino acids; the one experiment that seemed to demonstrate protein formation had to use dry heat at a narrow range (higher and the mass would char, lower and the desired reaction would not take place. That experiment also required that 2/3 of the reaction mixture be either aspartic acid or glutamic acid, which led to the disproportionate inclusion of those amino acids in the final product. And of course the final product did not have a specified order; in fact, there was some evidence that the arrangement of amino acids resembled a tree more than a line, as in conventional protein. I don't look at these obstacles so much as dealbreakers as they are obstacles that must be dealt with if one is to have a good theory. I am prepared to be completely openminded about the origin of life. I'm not locking and barring the door if someone wants to go there. But if that person expects me to follow him/her, he/she needs to deal with the obstacles. If the obstacles are not dealt with, I see no reason why I should exercise faith that they will disappear. I have been told for decades that science has no room for faith. I could buy skepticism. What I can't buy is selective skepticism.Paul Giem
July 20, 2008
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Sorry Paul Giem, I posted here before finding your response on the original thread.Tom MH
July 20, 2008
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Paul, wonderful post, and thanks to Barry for emphasizing it. It's not a case that darwinists definitely don't like discussing OOL, and sometimes prefer the strange view that it is a problem which will never be solved, or even which needs not be solved. Some will hide behind the fact that Darwin himself did not address the problem, as though that solves everything. Obstacle 10 is the core of ID in brief, but I would not underestimate all the others. They are strong and sound. Obstacle 11 is my favourite. We must remember that nobody can take the "ingredients" of even the simplest prokaryote, even already formed (membrane, DNA, etc.), and just put them together to generate a living bacterium. And we should believe that something like that came out of a casual aggregation in the ocean, or in rocks, or in some pool? Ridiculous! Obviously, some will argue that the first living beings were simpler than bacteria. Well, that's really an act of faith: believing in the existence of a completely new category of beings, which have never been observed anywhere in the universe, of which we know nothing and never will know (for the simple reason that they probably never existed), and still use that unlikely fantasy as an explanation of all observable life. So much for science and rationality... So, I really think that all of those points are real deal breakers, and there are probably many more. Indeed, there is no game: OOL is the final grave of any materialistic scientific explanation of reality. But that's not to say that, once life was formed, anything was possible. Obviously, the same impossibilities are perfectly true also for all that happened after (evolution). The evidence for ID is perfectly strong even after OOL. Only, for OOL it is strong beyond any imagination.gpuccio
July 20, 2008
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Well, since I am named in the second paragraph, and I responded to Paul's post on the original thread, perhaps I can repost my response here -- this time WITHOUT blockquotes or other tags, which mangled the readability. No changes other than formatting: ******* Yes, we can both readily agree that abiogenesis is a historical fact – even if we presently do not know the particulars of when, where, or how – of an event that took place some time between the Big Bang and now. I’m happy to rule out the silliness of aliens, fertile meteors, time-travelers, and robots. Some other comments on your post, not necessarily in order. -- "Is it even possible without the intervention of some kind of intelligence? We certainly don’t know the answer is yes by any kind of scientific experimentation. In fact, all our experiments to date argue that the answer is no." Neither yes nor no, but "don’t know". Certainly HUMAN intelligence has so far failed to accomplish abiogenesis. If and when we do, that success would presumably hold important clues for how it might (or might not) occur in nature. The only way to show that a scientific theory is valid (or not) is to form the theory, make predictions contingent on the theory, and conduct experiments to confirm or deny the predictions. No such tests of natural abiogenesis have been performed because AFAIK no such theory exists! I am not a biologist, or even a scientist (just in case anyone might think I was), but I have read things on the web about "RNA World", and "Lipid World", and while I don’t have the relevant expertise to evaluate those ideas on their technical merits, I am struck by how provisional and tentative they seem. Perhaps a good start, but not yet a real theory. No theory, nothing to prove or falsify. We’re still stuck at "don’t know". -- "Are there times at which there is evidence for a singularity? Are there any other times when the laws of physics fail to explain the observed phenomena? " You use of “singularity” to describe abiogenesis is novel to me, but a bit troubling. When applying the (known) laws of physics to the conditions of the early universe, we see they break down at points close to zero – predictive models fail, parameters race away to infinities, that sort of thing. Hence "singularity". What analogous breakdown of natural laws occur in abiogenesis? -- "It is that it is generally recognized that the spontaneous generation of life is at least difficult and rare." It certainly is now, but the pre-biotic world was necessarily different then the world we live in today. The ubiquity of bacteria alone is probably enough to doom any natural abiogenesis today, by turning the requisite pre-biotic materials into dinner. --"[B]elief in abiogenesis allows us to view the universe as completely (well, except for quantum mechanics and the Big Bang itself), explained by cause-effect relations. "But it is heavily faith-based. We have no experimental evidence for this belief, and the theoretical problems appear insoluble. We have here belief against all the evidence, analogous to the most daring leaps of religious faith imaginable, that is to say, faith not only without evidence but in the teeth of evidence." Perhaps the only faith I can see involved is the postulate of the rational universe: that natural events are governed by discoverable rules of regularity. But as I said in an earlier post (in paragraphs presumably not eaten by the blockquote monster), the entire scientific enterprise hangs off that postulate. It’s worked pretty good – why stop now? Nor do I see "belief against all evidence". Lacking a coherent theory of natural abiogenesis, there is precious little to believe IN, or pose evidences against. Lists of ways that abiogenesis could not happen do not reduce the likelihood that it DID or COULD happen. As you said in a previous paragraph, "this could be one more area where our information is incomplete". What is wrong with "we don’t know"? Or the more hopeful "we don’t know yet"? --"And it is even worse; there is no appeal to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining. It is a miracle without God." We didn’t understand the motion of the planets for a very long time. Fifteen centuries stand between Ptolemy and Newton. At what point during that time would it have been reasonable to declare the problem hopeless for natural law and hand it to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining? And if you believe that nature – the universe, this world – and the laws that govern it are God’s miracles, then how could abiogenesis be a miracle without God? ******* I've resisted the urge to revise my post, but I'll add my concurrence with jerry's point above.Tom MH
July 20, 2008
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should be Are any of the 11 obstacles real deal breakers as #10 is?jerry
July 20, 2008
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Just out of curiosity, which of the 11 obstacles are the crushers to a natural solution to biogenesis? I would list 10 as the crux of the argument and this obstacle can be divided up into several other sub obstacles. Are any of the 11 obstacles real deal breakes as #10 is?jerry
July 20, 2008
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Paul, great post.tribune7
July 20, 2008
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RE: Canned fool... A few of them have stopped by here, Borne. I've heard their canned objections plenty of times...Atom
July 20, 2008
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There's another typo in point 11: That is why canned fool can sit on the shelf indefinitely canned fool? hmmm... reminds of someone I met...Borne
July 20, 2008
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Thanks, Barry. Now that this is reposted, I should correct a typo. The last word should be "evidence-based".Paul Giem
July 20, 2008
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