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Fibonacci Life

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galaxyThe Fibonacci sequence is one of those math marvels that even elementary students can appreciate. Like the discovery of the √2, it possesses this element of mystery that makes Pythagoras‘ harmonic series look like a rubber-band shoe-box next to a concert grand. Pythagoras famously drowned the fellow who discovered that √2 was neither even nor odd. It went against his religion. Fortunately for Gödel, the Pythagoreans did not control peer review when he demonstrated that unprovability was a whole lot worse than irrational numbers, but all math was  “incomplete” and unable to exclude ambiguous theorems. But if we don’t demand that math obey our ideas of God, we can sit back an enjoy it. Here’s a YouTube video marvelling at the ubiquity of Fibonacci, calling it the fingerprint of God.

It is a well-worn metaphor, which other mathematicians might reserve for the Mandelbrot set. Physicists, on the other hand, prefer to see this in things like cosmology. Which raises the question, is the Fibonacci series merely a mathematician’s trick, or is there something hiding in the physics? Do the sunflower whorls contain a physical necessity, or merely an aesthetic necessity to match Fibonacci? And if so, then what about the spirals of galaxies? Surely we can say more about Fibonacci than mathematical aesthetics!

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Comments
Hi all. I've been abstaining from philosophical discussions, especially of the argumentative kind, but I saw this post about math, so I'd like to comment. 1. In the opening post, the statement, "Pythagoras famously drowned the fellow who discovered that ?2 was neither even nor odd" is quite wrong. The fact that ?2 is not odd or even is trivially true because ?2 is not an integer. Pythagorus (not someone else) proved that ?2 is irrational, which is a considerably more significant finding, and was somewhat earth-shattering (at least to Pythagorus and his follows) at the time. The proof usually taught in high school is a proof by contradiction, and it does involve some number theory about the properties of odd and even numbers - perhaps that is what confused Sheldon. 2. To bornagain at 14: Euler's identity does not "come out of nowhere." It follows pretty straightforwardly from the Taylor series for sin x, cos x, e^x, and is best understood in terms of vectors in the complex plane. I teach all this to high school beginning calculus students. It certainly is a lovely result - there is no doubt about that, and Euler et al are to be congratulated for the work they did to bring it to light. 3. To JGuy at 19: You write, "By the way, another Fibonacci series is the distance of the planted from the sun. Well, maybe not exactly a Fib. seq. but similar. As I understand it, the distance of any one planet to the sun is generally equal to the sum of the distances of the planets closer to the sun. Fibonacci-esque ." No, the orbits aren't close to being a Fibonacci series. Also, "the distance of any one planet to the sun is generally equal to the sum of the distances of the planets closer to the sun" is not an accurate statement of the rule that describes a Fibonacci series. You might look up the distances from the sun for each planet and see for yourself. 4. To Obitron at 20: you write, "In conclusion, to see a Fibonacci serie formation in our universe is a good evidence for us that we are in a coherent and understable universe." We obviously live in a coherent and understandable world. I don't think anyone seriously doubts that.Aleta
September 22, 2010
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Collin, I don't know if you remember this, but a documentary was done on the Red Sea Exodus a few years back,,,: The Exodus Decoded - Part - 1/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjKyRoyIjjw The documentary was done by Simcha Jacobovici and he indeed uncovered much evidence that the Exodus did indeed occur,,, volcanic ash was dated to the proper time,,, archaeological markers were dated at appropriate places before and after the Exodus,,, there may be more evidence but that is all I can recall off the top of my head,,, I gained much respect for Simcha Jacobovici and his scholarship in that documentary,, yet,,, unfortunately he lost that respect fairly quickly with his next documentary,,, The Lost Tomb of Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Tomb_of_Jesus ,,, in which he tried to use probability calculations to say that the remains of Jesus was in a tomb, along with his family members,,, yet, as you might well know, Dr. Dembski has a PhD. in mathematics in which his expertise is precisely in probability calculations,,, and Dr. Dembski wrote this following paper, in conjunction with Dr. Marks, in refutation to the later Jacobovici documentary,,,, The Jesus Tomb Math http://www.designinference.com/documents/2007.07.Jesus_Tomb_Math.pdf ,,, also of note, and I don't know if it really matters,, but Jacobovici is of Jewish heritage and may explain a little of the reason why he balanced the evidence so unevenly in the two different documentaries that he did.bornagain77
September 22, 2010
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Off-topic, Researchers find parting of Red Sea (sort of) possible. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/21/where-did-waters-part-for-moses-not-where-you-think/?hpt=MidCollin
September 22, 2010
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gpuccio, "I do believe that the importance of the Fibonacci series in nature is a good argument in the cintext of cosmological ID. Cosmological ID is a valid part of ID, but it is methodologically separated from biological ID. The reasoning and the arguments are different, even if the conclusions are similar." After just some cursory research on the Fibonacci Sequence, one discovers that there are patterns in nature, such as the center of the sunflower, and other flower petals, as well as marine shells, , pineapples and pine cones, which appear to follow the Fibonacci Sequence in their design. While I find it interesting, and perhaps more research on my part is required; don't you think that a biological design argument could also be made in that regard, as opposed to just the pattern (golden rectangle, divided by a square repeatedly, finding curves, representing a spiral through all the squares) being apparent in galaxies? I also found an article, which suggests that the sequence is present in the Mandelbrot set, but I'm a little confused as to how. I suspect that much of this may be merely speculation, and people forcing evidence to match a hypothesis, but it looks intriguing. I'm not so much intrigued by the spiral in galaxies, because there are physical explanations; however, it is interesting that the shape should follow so exactly in accord with a certain set of numbers. I don't know how to explain it. Any thoughts?CannuckianYankee
September 22, 2010
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JGuy "Is the Fibonacci any better evidence of ID than a circle? I understand it is a series, but so is the depth of sand piled up along the side of cliff side as a function of distance from the base of the cliff." My opinion: Circles (natural circles, I understand, not artificial them), are also a consequence of a cohesive universe but a flat universe, that is, attractive conexion is only in two dimensions. When I refer "universe" I'm saying not The Universe, but a little universe within another Universe. When we see a natural circle within a cohesive flat universe, we are seeing a design that is "forced" by the laws (natural laws) of this universe. For example, when a drop of rain fall over the surface of a lake, we are seeing the cohesión attraction inside this particular flat universe in action. They are the famous circular waves that travel over the water (really the effect is three dimensional, but the particles out in the third dimension, are those that allow see a real circle into the plane of the surface). In the other hand, if we see a circle in a heterogeneous flat and deconexed universe, we are certain that it is an artificial circle all the way, because a no cohesive universe cannot produce by itself a circle (chance does not acts so, chance has his own laws). This circle must be designed well by an external agent, either by an internal agent that is constrained to "the law of a circle", that is, that his distance to a point is the same for all the points of his circumpherence, or that is a inteligent agent that knows how to make a circle. For example,a circle in a grass field... ¡artificial! definitely. Can be caused, well by a circular external agent, as a metheorite or another object that leaves his footprint, or can be caused by an internal agent, as a cow that is tied to a rope that is subject to a point, the center of this circle. From the ID perspective, I think it is very important in the first place to know the universe (little universe, of course) where a design is inserted inside. If this design is homogeneous in a heterogeneous universe, it is artificial for sure, and then we can affirm without any doubt that is a agent in action. If the action (the design) is a instant action then, it is a external action, a footprint of the external agent. If the desig needs a continued process then it needs a internal agent capable of realize this design "without inteligence", that is, forced by some algorithm that defines the design (in the exapmple of the circle -> x^2+y^2<=r^2). If the design is complex enough to cannot be materialized by a single algorithm, then the agent is a inteligent agent. I think that two or three unrelated geometric shapes (for example a circular sector and a pentagon)can be enough to considere a design within a limited heterogeneous "mini-universe", Inteligent Designed, if the agent is a single agent. But it is the question here, and in my opinion, all it is needed is a good standard to determine if a design is inteligent, natural or circumstantial forced. I think the actual method (probabilistic method) is good for a negative background but is hard to measure in very complex designs. A analytical method would be the correct way to convince the scientific comunity. I'm working in this area and I consider that could be a way to build a theory from the analytical perspective. Sorry for the lenght of the post, although I believe it is necessary for a good understand of the question. Regards, ObritonObriton
September 22, 2010
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Is the Fibonacci any better evidence of ID than a circle? I understand it is a series, but so is the depth of sand piled up along the side of cliff side as a function of distance from the base of the cliff. By the way, another Fibonacci series is the distance of the planted from the sun. Well, maybe not exactly a Fib. seq. but similar. As I understand it, the distance of any one planet to the sun is generally equal to the sum of the distances of the planets closer to the sun. Fibonacci-esque :PJGuy
September 22, 2010
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Thanks, very much UB & BA for your welcome. I've learned many things here from many people, pro and against the ID bases, with very good arguments that I think are to be taken into account and I'll would like to make my own contribution, on my possibilities, as a way of gratitude to all the people that had participated here from the beginning until now. I want to explain the second point of my statements a little more, because I think it can be interesting for ID thinking. I think it is impossible a coherent (understable) universe if there no be cohesion inside it. The first thing for a understable entity (universe in a local sense), functional or not, is to have some type of coherence. Our universe posses this characteristic: one material point is connected attractively to another material point, for more and more away that it could be, with more intensity as more is the quantity of matter that is far from the original point, and more intensity as less the other point is far to the first. That is the universal gravity law. By necessity, the matter of one point in the universe is less than the rest of mass of the universe. And this cause a permanent and coherent equilibrium among all the material "pieces" of the universe because when a huge ammount of matter is accumulated in a zone the rest of the universe "reacts" attracting this huge mass and so maintains the cohesion. Think for a moment a more or less spherical and homogeneus universe of many, many particles with a cohesion force of that sort. The interior particles tend to stand in his original position because the symetric forces of both sides (more equilibrated as more near to the center)makes a neutralization, But the outside particles are disequilibrated and tends to join. The first time that "want" to join one outermost particle (in a spherical surface) must connect with the immediately particle forward the inner and this makes a first group near the surface of particles of 1 element and of 2 elements. The next step, the double particles are more attracted to single particles that sigle-single connection, ant then the main joining will be 2-1, some 1-1 and a minor 2-2, that is converted in a disequilebrated point and tends to create its own dynamic. The rest of the surface goes then to a connection of 2-1 with the 1-1 to form a 5 multiparticle (his atraction is 3x2 = 6 strongest that a 1-1 connection. The five elements particle has "afinity" to the three elements particle and joins in aa eight elements particle. Then the process would be on and on in a secuence of 1-2-3-5-8-13... WOOOAAA... the Fibonacci serie. That is then a more or less common process in a universe that is coherently and quantizied concibed, and it is in the outermost part of the same, his surface, where we can see it. In conclusion, to see a Fibonacci serie formation in our universe is a good evidence for us that we are in a coherent and understable universe. Thanks again for the welcome and thanks again for read my comments. Until the next ObritonObriton
September 21, 2010
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you = your :)Upright BiPed
September 21, 2010
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correction: the ? means pi in the last referenced article.bornagain77
September 21, 2010
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Welcome aboard Orbitron. I enjoyed you post very much.Upright BiPed
September 21, 2010
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Of related interest to The Fibonacci sequence,,, we were discussing Euler's number yesterday, right before you posted this thread Dr. Sheldon,,, and it to seemed to take on almost a 'spiritual' tone as your thread currently does: starting from this post on Human Consciousness: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/human-consciousness/#comment-364226 it went somewhat as follows: kf: And as to the reality or not of numbers, I note just one little equation: 0 = 1 + e ^(i*pi) — Euler Believe it or not, the five most important numbers in mathematics are tied together, through the complex domain.,,,,,,,,,And that points, ever so subtly but strongly, to a world of reality beyond the immediately physical.,,,,,You may resist it, but there the compass needle points. ba77: As well Euler’s number finds striking correlation to reality,,, The following image, Bible verse and video are very interesting since, with the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR), the universe is found to actually be a circular sphere: 3D image of CMBR http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cv.nrao.edu/course/astr534/images/CMBsphere.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cv.nrao.edu/course/astr534/Tour.html&usg=__2wwkjf7e9Ncbws5QI9QQ4te3WcY=&h=640&w=640&sz=183&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&tbnid=nE9QnlHj-QBlMM:&tbnh=156&tbnw=146&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCMBR%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D637%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=629&vpy=150&dur=6522&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=141&ty=134&ei=_VmZTMrrAYTjnAeCiYWODw&oei=2FmZTMmHF8nPngeq7fSHDw&esq=14&page=2&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:12 Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, The Known Universe by AMNH - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U The flatness of the 'entire' universe, which is necessary to correspond to pi in Euler's is found here: Did the Universe Hyperinflate? - Hugh Ross - April 2010 Excerpt: Perfect geometric flatness is where the space-time surface of the universe exhibits zero curvature (see figure 3). Two meaningful measurements of the universe's curvature parameter, ½k, exist. Analysis of the 5-year database from WMAP establishes that -0.0170 < ½k < 0.0068.4 Weak gravitational lensing of distant quasars by intervening galaxies places -0.031 < ½k < 0.009.5 Both measurements confirm the universe indeed manifests zero or very close to zero geometric curvature,,, http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate This following video shows that the universe also has a primary characteristic of expanding/growing equally in all places which strongly corresponds to e in Euler's number: Every 3D Place Is Center In This Universe - 4D space/time - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ Towards the end of the following video, Michael Denton speaks of the square root of negative 1 is necessary to explain the actions of quantum mechanics in this universe: Michael Denton - Mathematical Truths Are Transcendent And Beautiful - Square root of -1 is built into the fabric of reality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003918 I find it extremely strange that the enigmatic Euler's number would find such striking correlation to reality. In pi we have correlation to the 'sphere of the universe' as revealed by the Cosmic Background radiation, as well pi correlates to the finely-tuned 'geometric flatness' within the 'sphere of the universe' that has now been found. In e we have the fundamental constant that is used for ascertaining exponential growth in math that strongly correlates to the fact that space time is 'expanding/growing equally' in all places of the universe. In the square root of -1 we have what is termed a 'imaginary number', which was proposed to help solve equations like x2+ 1 = 0 back in the 17th century, yet now, as Michael Denton pointed out in the preceding video, it is found that the square root of -1 is required to explain the behavior of quantum mechanics in this universe. The correlation of Euler's number, to the foundational characteristics of how this universe is constructed and operates, points overwhelmingly to a transcendent Intelligence, with a capital I, which created this universe! It should also be noted that these universal constants, pi,e, and square root -1, were at first thought to be completely transcendent of any material basis, to find that these transcendent constants of Euler's number in fact 'govern' material reality, in such a fundamental way, should be enough to send shivers down any mathematicians spine. If that was not enough, this following video shows how pi and e are found in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 Euler’s Number – God Created Mathematics – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003905 This following website has the complete working out of the math of Pi and e in the Bible, in the Hebrew and Greek languages respectively, for Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1: http://www.biblemaths.com/pag03_pie/ This following article also reminded me of your post Dr. Sheldon: God by the Numbers Excerpt: The final number comes from theoretical mathematics. It is Euler's (pronounced "Oiler's") number: e?i. This number is equal to -1, so when the formula is written e?i+1 = 0, it connects the five most important constants in mathematics (e, ?, i, 0, and 1) along with three of the most important mathematical operations (addition, multiplication, and exponentiation). These five constants symbolize the four major branches of classical mathematics: arithmetic, represented by 1 and 0; algebra, by i; geometry, by ?; and analysis, by e, the base of the natural log. e?i+1 = 0 has been called "the most famous of all formulas," because, as one textbook says, "It appeals equally to the mystic, the scientist, the philosopher, and the mathematician." http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/march/26.44.html?start=3 kairosfocus added this to the discussion on Euler's number: The Euler equation is hands down the most beautiful equation in all mathematics. And, it is so utterly astonishing, a surprise that comes out of nowhere, almost. Zero, the empty space on the abacus 1 the first number and the number of identity e, which governs so many kinds of growth and decay i, the strangest number of all: the “imaginary” root of a negative number. pi, the ratio of circumference to diameter of the “perfect” geometrical figure. All of them, tied up in one equation. If you needed a signature of the Ultimate Mathematician who built a world that embeds mathematics and number, here it is.bornagain77
September 21, 2010
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Welcome Obriton, you seem to do very well expressing yourself with what English you now know.bornagain77
September 21, 2010
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Hello Everybody, I'm not an english native guy and my language is not english, then it's possible that I can't express some ideas ("hard" ideas, of course), very well. My apologies if this is the case... I'm very familiar with all that is said in this web because I've read many threads during last years and I think that the ID proposition is a good one but it need even another step in the theory to make it more understable to the science comunity. I like very much the gpuccio position in all his participation because I think that in this time we need a constructive stand and is needed a dialog attitude and not a debate attitude, understanding dialog as a position that allow other people express his ideas, even when they are strong against ours, take the good of them and then posit own ideas on the table in order to build a greater idea...Inteligent & constructive evolution, can be named, nor destructive devolution, as in the debate position. Now in the question, Fibonacci & Nature, what says to me? If I write from a metaphysical point of view, this say for me that there be a hyper-intelligent-designer that can create a so beautiful universe from NOTHING. Once I can see it, it's no dificoult for me to make a similar thing, but from SOMETHING. But, from the scientific position, that I think we must have ever live in this site, I can see 4 great evidences: 1) The Universe we see is quantified. Fibonacci series are a property of cardinals. 2) The Universe we see has a universal cohesion between his "quantos" of particles. This can be a evidence of the reality of gravity. 3) The Universe we see is fourth dimensional. and 4) The Big-Bang theory is falsified. There must be a new theory to explain better what we see. The two last points are hard to explain well here, but the two first I think that are easyly understood for everybody. That's all for now, sorry if I don't express well my thinking, but I wish that it have been enough understable. Thanks for read me, ObritonObriton
September 21, 2010
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One of the things that is interesting is that the integral values appear to be exact locations on what must essentially be a continuous function. The arcs we see drawn in each segment are just approximations to the "true" spiral since the curvature decreases smoothly in natural form as the radius increases.SCheesman
September 21, 2010
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ellazimm: You ask whatever you want: I appreciate that.gpuccio
September 21, 2010
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Fibs have fascinating applications outside of nature. As one who trades the stock market I use them all the time as one of my technical indicators to predict future market movements. Vividvividbleau
September 21, 2010
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gpuccio: Yeah, had a great time and even won some money!! Thanks! I gotta admit, the ways the Fibonacci sequence keeps coming up in nature is kind of creepy! When I was sure God was trying to send me messages it was things like that (and lots of what I thought of as highly improbably coincidences) that made me feel like I was tapping into something bigger and greater. I hope you explore the sequence more if you haven't already. I love teaching about; even kids of age 10 or 11 can see some of the 'magic'. :-) Thanks for being patient with me and polite and respectful. Be sure and let me know if I ever fail to respond in kind. Getting close to 8am in England so I've got to get ready for work. Thanks again to everyone; I know I'm an erratic and stubborn contributor but I'm here 'cause I want to hear what y'all think. And I do that by asking lots of questions and I try to be honest without, hopefully, being strident. See yah later!!ellazimm
September 20, 2010
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Pythagoras famously drowned the fellow who discovered that ?2 was neither even nor odd. ?2 can't be expressed as the ratio of two integers - I don't think that anyone discussed the problem whether it was even or odd....DiEb
September 20, 2010
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ellazimm: I hope you had a very fine celebration of your birthday. My best wishes to you! :)gpuccio
September 20, 2010
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I do believe that the importance of the Fibonacci series in nature is a good argument in the cintext of cosmological ID. Cosmological ID is a valid part of ID, but it is methodologically separated from biological ID. The reasoning and the arguments are different, even if the conclusions are similar. While I prefer to reason about biological ID, because I feel that the arguments are at present more detailed, and that reductionists and darwinists really cannot counter them in any way, I do believe that cosmological ID is true: the non living world and its laws are no less designed than biological realities. Only, the ways to demonstrate those two aspect of design are different.gpuccio
September 20, 2010
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He forgot to mention how the Fibonacci sequence can give you the golden ratio and can be found in Pascal's triangle. Or the original rabbit breeding story problem Fibonacci proposed. There is a mathematical journal, The Fibonacci Quarterly, dedicated to this and similar sequences.ellazimm
September 20, 2010
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My mathematically oriented interests -- software engineering in general, computational number theory, and artificial intelligence -- were major factors in convincing me that Darwinian chance-and-necessity orthodoxy is an irrational, totally unsupported, Himalayan-sized dung heap of hopeless speculation.GilDodgen
September 20, 2010
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Truly well written Dr. Sheldon. I think that is about as close as I've seen someone come to making the wonder of mathematics a spiritual experience.bornagain77
September 20, 2010
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A good ID question would be to see how difficult this pattern would be to emerge under a purely unguided physical universe- with only stochastic physical reaction and redundant laws to lean on. Methinks this is a true sign of an intelligent designer who transcends the terrestrial. However while this pattern is neat I must say that Descartes' little known discovery of the Platonic Topological Invariant is much more interesting to me. If your interested please check out the book that gets into it- which is about how Descartes hid it in his secret notebook until years later Leibniz came and discovered it. http://www.amazon.com/Descartess-Secret-Notebook-Mathematics-Understand/dp/0767920341/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1285030892&sr=8-1 A real pleasure to read- and used is less than a buck. Descartes is btw one of the most underrated mathematicians in history. He is the originator of the Descartes Coordinate system the X Y axis T graph used in all basic algebra classes today- a very spiritual man too who started his secret notebooks with the line "All wisdom begins with fear of God"Frost122585
September 20, 2010
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