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Flies Show Free Will

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A team of neurobiologists led by Bjorn Brembs of Free University Berlin have found experimental evidence in fruit fly behavior indicating that these much-abused bugs may have an element of free will. A report on the study in LiveScience notes that:

For centuries, the question of whether or not humans possess free will — and thus control their own actions — has been a source of hot debate.
“Free will is essentially an oxymoron — we would not consider it ‘will’ if it were completely random and we would not consider it ‘free’ if it were entirely determined,” Brembs said. In other words, nobody would ascribe responsibility to one’s actions if they were entirely the result of random coincidence. On the other hand, if one’s actions were completely determined by outside factors such that no alternative existed, no one would hold that person responsible for them.


Of course standard Darwinian orthodoxy denies the reality of free will. Though many Darwinists shy away from the implications of their beliefs as they apply to ascribing responsibility for human behavior, their position demands that all behavior is determined by the genetic heritage of selfish genes. If free will in fact exists, it must exist outside the deterministic universe of materialism. But if free will exists in flies, can it be denied in humans?
Of course the scientists behind this study are good Darwinists all, and therefore must cavil and caveat their way out of the real implications of their findings:

Brembs said that “even a fly brain possesses a function which makes it easier to imagine a brain that creates the impression of free will.”

Just as life give only “the appearance of design” to people like Dawkins, observed behavior must be noted to give only “the impression of free will.” To stay in the mainstream, scientists must not acknowledge the possibility of actual free will, although Brembs comes perilously close with his statement:

“If even flies show the capacity for spontaneity, can we really assume it is missing in humans?” he asked.

As with biological complexity, the more we discover about behavior, the less deterministic it looks. Evidence for free will is evidence against Darwinism, no matter how it is spun.

Comments
When I wrote, " dacook is another person confusing science with the philosophy of materialism… ," dacook responded, "Then I’m in good company with Richard Dawkins and many others .." Actually I don't consider Dawkins good company in this regard, and I don't think dacook believes that he is good company either. Furthermore, I don't consider Dawkins the "premier public explainer" of science, especially since his latest book is not really about science. dacook goes on to say, "Actually it’s not me who confuses science with materialist philosophy, but those who insist that only materialist explanations are allowed in the realm of science." These are two different things. There are good reasons to restrict science to materialistic explanations, I think, and, again, many non materialists, including many Christians and other theists, agree with me on that. Science is not the only way of investigating the world, and science does not and cannot investigate all aspects of the world. So I'll continue to argue that it is a mistake to conflate materialism as a philosophy with a support for science as seeking materials explanations: these are different. I can't post a picture, but this is an easy Venn diagram to draw: imagine a little circle (the world as accessible to and known by science) surrounded by a bigger circle (the world as known as completely as possible by human beings. For materialists, the two circles are identical, but for many people (more than the number of materialists, I'm sure) the outer circle is indeed bigger than the inner circle: there is more to our understanding than science can provide. So of course all materialists accept science as a materialistic endeavor. That doesn't mean that all who accept science as a materialistic endeavor are all materialists. This seems like a simple distinction to me.Jack Krebs
May 16, 2007
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nullasalus, "I ask, how can you find the lack of design in nature if you cannot detect design in principle? And then they get angry." Heh heh. Well put. For me, I prequalify every conversation on the subject with a single question: if a certain feature of the biotic nature was designed, could we determine it? How a person answers that generally tells me all I need to know whether or not a discussion with the person would probably be a waste of my time.mike1962
May 16, 2007
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dacook is another person confusing science with the philosophy of materialism...
Then I'm in good company with Richard Dawkins and many others: Any behavior, including a deluded belief in free will or god, for e.g., is explainable based on the evolutionary advantage it gave one's forebears and the current environment, doncha know. "Science" as understood by its premier public explainer, does not allow any non-materialist cause for anything. Actually it's not me who confuses science with materialist philosophy, but those who insist that only materialist explanations are allowed in the realm of science. To the classic dichotomy of "nature vs nurture" to explain behavior, we must add a third choice which trumps the others: free will, or the ability to make choices undetermined by one's background or heritage. And it appears that even flies may have it. That's the point of my post. (Also it's fun to read about the latest contortions inflicted upon the poor fruit flies; I wanted to share. ;) )dacook
May 16, 2007
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"free will is a philosophical issue that is beyond the scope of science." This is an outlandish statement. Science consists of observation and deduction. Deduction implies choice. Choice implies freewill. The definition of Science itself is therefore dependent on free will. Free will is not outside the scope of Science. It is the basis of it.JDH
May 16, 2007
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If Darwinists really do not believe in free will, how come they are always trying to convince me to "choose" to believe them? It seems they really want me to exercise the free will that they insist I do not have. Oh well, internally inconsistent belief systems will always have their conundrums.JDH
May 16, 2007
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Jack Krebs, To be fair, it's almost impossible to have a 'clean' discussion of terms like this. I've had it explained to me that the quantum level provides a fierce challenge to determinism, and also that it proves that the world is more deterministic than previously thought. I've had it explained that evolution is devastating evidence against God, profound evidence for God, and utterly inapplicable as evidence in either direction. (In particular, I get told that design cannot be detected in nature and suggestions to the contrary are unscientific. Then the person goes on to say that scientists have studied nature and found ample evidence that there is no design present. I ask, how can you find the lack of design in nature if you cannot detect design in principle? And then they get angry.) Not that I'm defending misuse of terms. Just, such debates have been opportunistically messed up and hijacked so much at this point that it's hard to be accurate.nullasalus
May 16, 2007
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Jack Krebs, Since you are back, you might want to visit the thread on common descent and see if you still want to make your assertions that ID precludes common descent after reading the discussion. You said that was one of your main issues with ID.jerry
May 16, 2007
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dacook writes,
Of course standard Darwinian orthodoxy denies the reality of free will. Though many Darwinists shy away from the implications of their beliefs as they apply to ascribing responsibility for human behavior, their position demands that all behavior is determined by the genetic heritage of selfish genes. If free will in fact exists, it must exist outside the deterministic universe of materialism. But if free will exists in flies, can it be denied in humans?
"Standard Darwinian orthodoxy", if that is meant to refer to mainstream evolutionary biology, does not deny nor affirm the reality of free will, as free will is a philosophical issue that is beyond the scope of science. dacook is another person confusing science with the philosophy of materialism: many non-materialists, including many Christians and other theists, accept evolutionary biology and have additional religious beliefs that would include issues of free will and personal responsibility. Secondly, it is not even a given that "if free will in fact exists, it must exist outside the deterministic universe of materialism." For one thing, current materialistic views of the universe are profoundly not deterministic at the quantum level, and it is not obvious at all that some type of encapsulated and consolidated freedom might not reside in the individual as a consequence of that. And last, many non-materialistic philosophies have problems with the concept of free will also: for instance, how does free will reconcile with the notion of an omniscient God who already knows all moments of time clear up until the end of time? So I wish those that who wish to discuss philosophical issues and argue with materialists would make it clear that is what they are doing, rather than inaccurately lumping all supporters of science into one materialistic bag.Jack Krebs
May 16, 2007
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isn't this about the "illusion of free will" anyway? If an all knowing creator knows every action you are going to make in the future, then no matter what actions you take, you will simply be following a course that was already known. This goes for a deterministic universe as well. If it's completely deterministic then our free will is just an illusion. Either way, someone's actions should never be dismissed as "well they couldn't help it, they are merely doing what was already determined "(by God or by genes, etc) Actions have consequences and that means those were determined too! heheFross
May 16, 2007
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It seems that free will and intentionality is at the heart of a lot of what gets discussed regarding Design, theodicy, "problem" of evil, etc. It also seems likely that free will is one of those irreducible, fundamental phenomena of the universe that cannot be explained in terms we humans can comprehend. Just like gravity, or whatever the "stuff" that subatomic or sub-subatomic particles are made of, or energy, or even the universe itself. These are all so fundamental that you can't get to anything more fundamental than them, and they cannot be explained--just described and accepted. It seems that free will is (or could be) in the same category. I sometimes wonder if the sense in which the Judeo-Christian worldview asserts that humans are made in "God's image" is in the matter of free will. God has free will; so do we. You can't explain it; it just IS. An expansion of this, IMO can help explain things like the "problem" of (moral) evil, but I won't go into that here. I also sometimes wonder if instead of talking about "Intelligent Design," we should be talking about "Intentional Design," because, after all, that's what it's all about, isn't it? Were these things designed the way they are "on purpose" by some volitional agency, or did they just occur by undirected accident?jb
May 16, 2007
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Oh great. So they ARE being intentionally annoying when they buzz around our food and head. :-) The ScubaredneckThe Scubaredneck
May 16, 2007
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And were they able to communicate their will, I think we all know what they would say... "Help meeeee"jhudson
May 16, 2007
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As a Calvinist and a student of philosophy, I think the problem is with libertarian views of free will. You will never, ever choose something you don't want to do. So if you think you can't have free will unless there is something completely random going on, you are going to have problems. And if your will is based on something random, how can you have responsibility with the same assumptions?geoffrobinson
May 16, 2007
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Evidence for free will is evidence against Darwinism, no matter how it is spun. Unless science discovers that this is what is called "an emergent property" that is neither predetermined nor plannable but simply is the result of forces that give the appearance of something that is not real but assumed to be real since no explanation for it is found. Many times we can say, unless we have the math, that something "simply is." Like the "magical" properties of H20, which would be difficult to predict based on the properties of oxygen and hydrogen alone. It can be explained, but is rather dry and complicated.S Wakefield Tolbert
May 16, 2007
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