The Colorado Department of Health has been caught inflating COVID 19 deaths. A state lawmaker has requested a criminal investigation.
He also provided another letter dated April 17 from the Someren Glen senior care center to its staff, residents, and residents’ families. The Centennial facility’s letter said CPDHE had overruled the cause of death findings by attending physicians in order to list seven deaths as being caused by COVID-19.
This will come as a surprise to absolutely no one. In March, the scientific advisor to the Italian Minister of Health stated: “On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many had two or three.”
The same thing has been going on in Colorado. The Department of Heath said:
“We classify a death as confirmed when there was a case who had a positive SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) laboratory test and then died. We also classify some deaths as probable,” their statement said.
That method changed, however, on Friday. Colorado Gov. Jared Polis and CDPHE announced that going forward, cases in which people had COVID-19 and died of another cause will be recorded separately from the deaths that were caused by COVID-19.
And with the new counting protocol, poof! Colorado’s COVID death count dropped overnight from 1,019 to 878.
In a separate story, it was reported that the governor has ordered the state’s Department of Health to stop tinkering with the numbers:
Polis said when there is a gray area, state officials should rely on the ruling from the coroner or physicians and that “nobody behind a desk should ever second-guess a coroner or an attending physician that lists the cause of death on a certificate.”
“I’ve told [CDPHE] to make sure they’re very clear in their reporting,” he said.
Polis added that there are only a few cases where the official cause of death isn’t clear.
“What the people of Colorado want to know is not who died with COVID, but who died of COVID-19,” Polis said.
In its defense, the Department of Health said they were just doing what CDC told them to do. Exactly. CDC told them to inflate the numbers and they did. Colorado is just one state of 50, a smaller one at that. One wonders where the COVID death numbers would stand if all of the states adjusted their numbers to reflect reality instead of political diktats.
Scaremongers like Orthomyxo have pushed back against the mountain of evidence that deaths were being over-counting, even insisting that, if anything, deaths have been under- counted. The truth is becoming harder and harder to deny. And that must infuriate the Orthos of this world who have been frenetically trying to keep us all in panic mode.
Speculation regarding the motives of the scaremongers abounds. Some have suggested that it is in progressives’ interest to keep the population terrified, because they believe terrified voters will turn on the bad orange man in November.
These were undoubtedly from LAZRS19 virus, not COVID19.
From a news report:
The unfolding Swedish gamble appears to be going as predicted by many epidemiologists. The Swedish approach has been resulting in many more deaths from COVID-19, a large proportion being the elderly and infirm. Achieving “herd immunity” has been largely on the backs of the elderly and infirm with preexisting heart and lung conditions, the highest risk group. Oh well, maybe COVID-19 is just nature’s way of culling the herd of the old and unfit, no longer contributing to society, in fact a drain on society (sarcasm).
Of course, skeptics like BA will claim these death rate figures are grossly miscounted by the local authorities, but I wonder who, in Sweden, is doing this, when there the authorities themselves are fully behind the “achieve herd immunity – it’s worth it” approach?
No doubt there will soon be a directive from the White House that all deaths where the deceased was infected with the coronavirus will be reclassified as cause of death being COVFEFE-19, meaning something like what the duty officer at Pearl Harbor said, well, yes, there’s something there – but don’t worry about it.
If COVID-19 hastened a natural death then it is a COVID-19 death. The same criteria used to classify flu deaths.
Doubter points to Sweden’s experiment. Well, Sweden is attempting to obtain herd immunity sooner to lessen the impact of the second wave. That’s true. So far its death rate is in the middle of the pack in Europe, better than Italy, Spain and the UK, not as good as Denmark, Norway and Germany.
Here’s the key thing though. All of the experts say that the lockdowns are NOT designed to lower total deaths. They are designed to flatten the curve, thus spreading them out and not overwhelming the healthcare system. Doubter does not seem to understand this.
We do not know whether Sweden’s gamble will pay off. So far it is looking like it will. Their healthcare system was never in danger of being overwhelmed. They did far less damage to their economy. And–again key–the future will tell us whether they have been able to mitigate (perhaps eliminate) the second wave.
Doubter also says that in Sweden the bulk of the deaths have been among the old and infirm. He seems to imply that Sweden’s experience is unique in this regard. If that is what he thinks, he is staggeringly ignorant. Over 90% of the deaths have been among the elderly and infirm everywhere, including those countries he holds up as examples to emulate.
Doubter, you really should get a clue about the basic facts that everyone agrees on before you comment.
Seversky’s analysis consists of mocking and sneering. Typical. That really advances the ball Sev. Thanks.
Odd. Ed George, Doubter, and Sev are happier with the numbers artificially inflated.
Weird.
Andrew
Ed George implies that the deaths should not have been reclassified. Under his analysis, if you had terminal stage four cancer and were going to die on Tuesday, but instead you got COVID and died on Monday, well, you died of COVID. *palm face*
If Ed had read the linked story he would have learned that the scandal arose because the bureaucrats at the health department were reversing the cause of death determinations of the attending physicians. Neither those bureaucrats nor Ed George know better than the attending physicians what the cause of death of their patients was.
The idea that a large number of people are dying with, rather than of, covid19 doesn’t really hold up to inspection.
The death rate in the US is about 0.7% per year. People that recover from covid usually so in 2 weeks, so divide by 26 to get a ~0.03% chance of dieing with the virus in your system. There are 20,000 known cases in Colorado, so we can expect about 6 people to die with covid of the disease is not shortening lives. There are more than 1000 reported deaths, so any tweaking you might do to the abicey unlikely to change the result materially.
We also know the death rate in Colorado has increased by much more than the reported deaths https://gazette.com/users/login/?referer_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgazette.com%2Fpremium%2Fcovid-19-deaths-undercounted-amid-virus-cascading-mortality-effect-in-colorado-cdc-data-show%2Farticle_348e86de-917d-11ea-b4d0-2f0228887de2.html%3Fsave_asset%3D348e86de-917d-11ea-b4d0-2f0228887de2
I don’t know, but suspect some of these 200 or so reclassified deaths will be recent ones for which the death certificate is not yet in the system (i.e. some may well go back to be being covid deaths, but are now in the backlog of certificates waiting to be processed)
Unless the person inspecting is the actual attending physician whose decision on cause of death was overridden by a bureaucracy inflating the numbers. Ortho, give up. Even a passionate progressive like the governor of the state of Colorado knows you are wrong. Stop. You and people like you are doing untold damage, both in the panic caused by your scaremongering and in the loss of trust in the official numbers when officials are caught red handed monkeying with the numbers (which does not seem to matter to you).
Ortho, please stop pulling facts out of your ass. If you had read the linked story, you would have known that the numbers were inflated because bureaucrats were overriding what the attending physician wrote ON THE DEATH CERTIFICATE. Do you think they would have been referred for criminal charges if it was just a timing issue.
By the way Ortho welcome back. I noticed that you tucked your tail and slunk off after you got your ass handed to you by UB and KF and others over your “the genetic code works solely by chemical reactions” idiocy. I’m glad you licked your wounds and jumped back into the fray. Thatta boy.
Barry, you have a tendency to react emotionally to conclusions but ignore the evidence used to reach them. I have a pretty good track record on topic (appreciating the scale of this threat when you didn’t, seeing the flaws in the now revised but still flawed antibody study, knowing what the imperial model papers said which countries they modeled), so you might have reason to think I know what I’m talking about here. And sure enough, the two numbers are expected to converge as outstanding death certificates are processed: https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-now-breaking-down-deaths-due-to-covid-19-versus-people-who-died-with-covid-19
So, pulled less from my ass and more from some understanding of public health reporting processes…
Oh my… It didn’t seem to me that UB was even mounting a defence of your claim that the genetic code doesn’t work through a series of chemical reactions. They just enumerated some of the reactions and tried to make something out of the word discontinuous.
KF’s posts were entirely indecipherable to me.
Ortho cites a news article in which state department of health official are quoted trying to justify their invidious and irresponsible juggling of the numbers. Yes, Ortho, I will grant that when guilty bureaucrats are caught, they try to cover their guilt. No one, except possibly Ortho and his fellow travelers, believes this is anything other than bureaucrat ass covering.
Here are the plain facts that are beyond dispute: The attending physicians listed a non-COVID cause of death on the death certificates. Bureaucrats at the Department of Health — who had never even seen the patient — overrode those determinations and listed them as COVID deaths. The bureaucrats got caught and reduced the statewide count by over 200. The governor of Colorado called them to account.
Now Ortho comes in and says “believe me and the ass covering bureaucrats, not the attending physicians.”
It is not surprising, given his history, that Ortho would pull a stunt like this. It is truly astonishing that he would expect anyone to believe him.
Ortho takes me to task for my “emotional” response to his antics. Why yes, I did have some emotions when he pulled facts out of his ass and attempted to palm them off as data. Disgust, shock, sadness. Any rational person would.
I would like to see how Ortho spins this case. Here’s the report:
OK Ortho. Ball’s in your court. Spin away.
Two lies in one sentence.
1. Otho did know UB was attacking Ortho’s claim that the genetic code is nothing but a “chemical reaction.” Knowing that he was entirely outmatched and he would never be able to defend his indefensible claim, he simply slunk away from the site for a few days, hoping no one would notice. Too bad Ortho. We noticed.
2. I never claimed the process “doesn’t work through a series of chemical reactions.” And Otho knows this. The issue was not whether chemical reactions are involved in the process. My claim was that the genetic code is an information system that regulates the chemical reactions in the same way the information system on this computer I am typing on regulates the electromagnetic reactions in the CPU. In both cases, the system would not operate but for the coding (genetic code in one; computer code in the other). Ortho, your lies are getting tiresome. Fortunately, they are not very subtle and everyone sees through them.
That you could not understand (or, more likely, refused to acknowledge) the basic concepts KF was elucidating is why you slunk off in the first place. Nice of you to come clean on that.
Wow, quick hits for these….
The new classifications in colorado appear to be due to three deaths reported as covid-19 by public health but without that information on the death certificate (7 total deaths in a rest home, 4 of which had the diesase on teh certificate (https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/04/30/coronavirus-nursing-home-deaths-colorado-public-health/). The difference of 271 deaths comes from relying only on death-certificate indications, but those take longer to process that public health notifications so we can expect the two numbers to converge for older cases (precisely what the article I linked to says).
Obviously the alcohol poisoning case shouldn’t’ be included in the covid-19 deaths. I just content that tens of cases like this will be outweighed by the excess mortality that is clearly in CDC data, not that everyone with the virus in their system should be counted as a covid death.
The thing that sparked the genetic code posts was you incredulous question ““Are you suggesting that the genetic code works through a series of chemical reactions?” Whatever claims you might have added after the fact are not very relevant.
Considering the basis for the projected pandemic, which hasn’t actually occured due to lack of deaths, are based on a person who resigned in disgrace over getting things so wrong, it is no wonder deaths are being falsely inflated. The formula he was supposed to have used does not work and no one can make it work. His projection was not based on science, but belief that it was more lethal than it actually was.
Those projections that governors continue to use to justify their actions are based on the projections from the same person who panicked much of the world. The projections said Sweden was going to have 100,000 dead by May 1. The most recent number for Sweden shows 3674. April 21 still shows the highest number of deaths in a single day.
From various naval vessels, including cruise ships, we know the infection rate to be somewhere between 20-25%, which makes it less contagious than influenza. Influenza is not picky when it comes to killing people, since no weakening of the system is required to be lethal.
Doubter, I think more generally the pandemic has hit elderly and those with preconditions hardest, globally. KF
Ortho, just on a point of background, what do you know about computer architecture, machine code, transfer machines, NC machines, telecommunication systems architecture and related matters such as the ISO OSI framework for layer-cake information systems and networks? KF
From a FB post I received:
What is hilarious is that losers have to make shit up about other people in order to make themselves feel better.
“I mean you have to admit it’s hilarious that the people who have spent their entire lives stockpiling beans & ammo and publishing newsletters about preparing to shelter in place during a global crisis are the ones having meltdowns because they can’t go to the Cheesecake Factory.”
This is grossly inaccurate and completely downplays why people don’t want the lockdown
People are losing their businesses and their livelihoods over this lockdown, even killing themselves over this
Whoever wrote this is an ignoramus
Now I’m gonna take a wild swing at their political affiliation here
Pretty sure they’re a liberal
Now I think it’s worth noting that I can guess your political affiliation pretty accurately based on how enthusiastic you are about the lockdown
I shouldn’t be able to do that
So that should tell everybody something
Another curious thing is Michigan and their little tyrant has slightly more infected and many more dead then Texas, very interesting numbers because they both sport similar infection rates but one has much much fewer deaths
This virus seems more like a political thing than anything else
And my very liberal ex friend who is so terrified of the coronavirus yet has no fear of HIV (previous argument I had with him years ago) Happened to let it slip that this virus took the one thing that Trump had going for him the economy
Do you wonder why this type of back-and-forth is going on? well that’s probably because of stupidity like that
AaronS1978
I thought that was obvious by my stating that it came from FB.
Or a moderate conservative.
Enthusiastic? That would be a leap. Necessary is more accurate. With regard to political affiliation, I have none. I am a fiscal conservative, if that helps.
I have no fear of HIV either. I don’t see the relationship. One is highly contagious, and the other is largely an STD.
I agree that in the US it is being used as a political football, strongly encouraged by the President’s behaviour. I live in Ontario, Canada. Our premier is a populist conservative and our Prime Minister is a socialist liberal. But we don’t see the polarizing nonsense that we are seeing in the US.
Todd Wood
Here’s what I know about this outbreak. Everything about it is a classic, natural viral outbreak. I’ve seen absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. The concern that prompted the drastic social distancing was the rapid rate at which this virus spread, combined with early estimates of a fatality rate about ten times higher than the flu. Have we learned more and revised those estimates? Of course we have, that’s what science does. We learn new things and revise our models. It’s not the sign of a scam.
Why do we social distance? Because research has shown that it works to slow the spread of the virus, which prevents hospitals from being overloaded, which means more people get effective treatment and survive. Don’t believe me? Here’s the paper that convinced me that social distancing, quarantines, and lockdowns work. https://www.pnas.org/content/104/18/7582 “Flattening the curve” is not a cliche or a buzzword. It saved people’s lives in 1918, and it’s saving people’s lives now.
Here’s another thing I know: The much-touted difference between Norway and Sweden is statistically significant. Really, really significant. Here are the actual new case counts for both countries:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qWbtQxoNH8U/XrhUfCxNTSI/AAAAAAAAC7Q/272vFpTf0AEo55rRmGTd0hxUq6dnqtXaACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SwedenNorwayCOVID.jpg
Here’s Dr. Rob Carter from Creation Ministries International. Like me, he’s a young-earth creationist and has a background in molecular biology. He’s a dyed-in-the-wool, conservative scholar, much like me. What does he think?
https://youtu.be/B4bupkt2FGU
“ What a load of bunk.” – Dr. Rob Carter
OK, how about a Christian who’s actually studied viruses? Dr. Jennifer Gruenke started a blog about all this to help spread good information about the COVID-19 crisis. Here’s her assessment of conspiracy theories:
I get the impression that the idea behind these conspiracy theories is that if something bad happens, it can’t be due to nature, it must be human agency — the natural is safe and the artificial is dangerous. But this belief is deeply at odds with the biology. Nature wants to eat you. Source: Don’t believe the covid conspiracy theories.
http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/.....c.html?m=1
Earth to Ortho:
If the genetic code worked via chemical reactions then we should be able to synthesize the chemicals and get those reactions to work in a test tube. Yet we can’t do that. So either scientists are dumber than mindless nature or it isn’t as you think.
The Hoover Institution’s Richard Epstein got an enormous amount of grief for writing an essay posted on March 16 about policies for the outbreak, initially estimating that the toll of the coronavirus would be only 500 people, and then revising it upward to 5,000, and then later to 50,000. Epstein called it, “the single largest unforced intellectual error in my entire academic career, when I included numerical estimates about the possible impact of the coronavirus in terms of life and death. Those estimates were obviously ridiculously too low.”
All of us, from the president and Fauci to the kids down the street are trying to grapple with the unknown. Just about all of us are going to get something wrong at some point. Here we are, May 15, and we’re still not entirely sure whether children are largely immune to this virus, or whether some portion will develop “multisystem inflammatory syndrome” some months or weeks later. (The current leading theory is that this is some sort of delayed reaction by a child’s immune system after fighting off the virus.) Thankfully, this syndrome appears to be unlikely to kill children.
We think we’re less likely to catch the virus outside — it may be much, much less likely. Vitamin D might be a factor — or maybe it’s a more general sense that the vitamin is just good for your immune system in general. We’re not sure how long the antibodies against this virus will stay in human bodies. We’re pretty sure masks help, but we’re not sure how much, or how effectively people will wear them. A prominent virologist thinks he caught the virus through his eyes on a crowded flight because he was wearing a mask and gloves the entire time. It appears humans can spread the virus to dogs, but dogs cannot spread the virus to people.
What we know can change. Perhaps our appetite for rubbing someone’s nose in their getting something wrong has created an enormous disincentive for anyone ever admitting they’re wrong — and an inadvertent incentive for stubbornly clinging to an assessment, even in the face of mounting counter-evidence.
https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/being-wrong-is-human-and-will-happen-but-staying-wrong-is-a-choice/
@ Ed George
To give you a little background on my friend he’s a homosexual and he lives very promiscuously. It really upset me because the fact that he actually risks his life to live the lifestyle that he did. (He grew up some he no longer does)
The Promiscuity is the thing that actually really upset me about him
Him and I got would get into large and very long arguments about the lethality of HIV
He would always downplay it, I would tell him he needs to stick with one person, and he would always say it wasn’t a big deal
HIV is still an expensive death sentence and still kills more people then corona
And personally I’d rather have coronavirus over HIV any day of the week if I have not already had the virus which I think I have (getting tested for antibodies)
On the flipside he is scared shitless of corona while I am not
He’s locked horns with me on this subject that he has very little understanding about, almost every day since this started
Anyways I find him to be highly hypocritical about the entirety of the whole situation
That’s what I have to say about HIV when it comes to him and why I brought it up
At what you said about that it was obvious because it was from FB, I understand, that’s why I commented on it and not you. I knew that it was fallacious and I would hope that you didn’t write that statement, that’s why I didn’t say Ed George you’re a dumb dumb for saying that ;p
Now when it comes to how political this virus is, there is definitely a political war involved with this virus
It has been my experience that those that are very much for this quarantine and want to lock everything down almost indefinitely are extremely liberal.
And extreme conservatives that want to kill the lock down
Point in case I would definitely look at the numbers between Michigan and Texas
Most the people that challenged me on this are liberal I’d say about 78% of the time
My friends commented about how this disease took away the one thing that the president had going for him was not the only time that has been stated to me, which got me counting the perspectives
I have noticed that it is definitely a tug-of-war Between two parties that are using this disease to gain power and to get rid of somebody that they don’t like
I’m not a big fan of the president ( he says some amazingly dumb things) but I have found that the Democrats are incredibly underhanded so there’s not really one party here in America that you can honestly trust
So when you say it’s a political circus, it very much is, and I am actually very sick of it
But the two struggling parties are equally guilty even though it is my opinion that the Democrats are more guilty than the Republicans in this cases when It to comes being manipulative and dishonest
I’m not sure it’s worth replying to some of these, but let’s go…
BobRyan,
I presume you are referring to Neal Fergusson, who resigned because he was found to have ignored the lockdown orders, not because of the supposed failure of his model.
This virus is much more infective than the flu. You are forgetting that the ship outbreaks were subject to quarantine and evacuations that limited the spread (even then, hitting 20% of a ships complement in a few weeks is much more rapid than the flu, where infected individuals infects another ~1.3 people on average). Serology suggests as much as 20% of NYC may have got covid-19 already, despite the lockdown. That’s a higher proportion than get the flu in an entire season (without lockdown and physical distancing). So I thnk it’s quite clear the virus is more infective than the flu.
ET,
I don’t really follow the logic, what does our current ability to chemically synthesise proteins have to do with whether the genetic code works via a series of chemical reactions? Protein synthesis works just fine in a test tube, by the way. Though all the methods that I know about use cell extracts (i.e. ribosomes and proteins are taken from cells and put into solution in a test tube) to get teh reagents, I don’t know what bearing that has on teh question.
AaronS1978
I’m not generally opposed to promiscuity as long as they haven’t made promises (vows) to someone else. But if a person is being promiscuous without taking precautions, they are a public health risk. And that I have a problem with. Our actions come with consequences and responsibilities.
In your country far more than most.
Speaking as someone from outside your borders, I would have to disagree. Yes, they are both trying to make political points out of this but the fact that the Republicans blindly support this narcissist is a mystery to us.
From Canada, we watched the US admin deny PPE being delivered to Canada until it was pointed out that the materials used to make the masks comes from Canada.
The perception of Trump from outside the US is that he is a schoolyard bully. To him, everything is a competition where he must win and others must lose. This approach, although benefitting the US in the short term, will result in huge negatives. A simple example is that Canada will no longer rely on 3M from the US for the supply of their N95 masks.
Ortho:
If the genetic code worked via chemical reactions it should work in a test tube with manmade, ie synthesized, components.
That is the bearing it has on eht question.
You could be right
But the impeachment trials are a perfect example of that type of dishonesty
And yes my friend was not taking the proper precautions
Ed George:
As opposed to some clueless democratic narcissist? We don’t. We support the Presidency. We understand that he is not a scientist. The economy was booming. Trade deals were becoming fairer, to the benefit of the USA. Just because he refuses to be pushed around and taken advantage of, doesn’t make him a bully.
ET,
This is really just a repeat of your earlier statement.
It does work in a test tube. You haven’t explained why the reagents being manmade is crucial.
It doesn’t work in a test tube. The only way it works in a test tube is to use parts from a living organism. Programmed parts.
Again, if it was just chemical reactions it would work with synthesized parts, which are chemically and physically identical to those found in living organisms.
You appreciate, though, there is currently no way to synthesise all the proteins to make those analogs? So this is more a prediction of what might happen when broad-scale chemical protein synthesis becomes available, rather than proof the code works through chemical reactions?
Ortho:
That alone is very telling. I have seen that the only way to get an artificial ribosome to produce a protein is to keep the core RNA’s from ribosomes extracted from a living organism. I don’t know if they went all they way with a fully synthesized and functional ribosome.
So mRNA processing just happens as a matter of course of chemical reactions? Proof-reading and error-correction, too? No knowledge required, it just happens as a matter of course? What is the evidence for that?
I mean… yes, transcription is a chemical reaction and teh proofreading steps are generally carried out by RNA polymerases. You may think the system was designed for high fidelty (and, to be clear, I don’t really care what conclusion you make on that count), but I don’t think anyone thinks a mind is at play during transcription or translation.
Ortho
So Ortho thinks that in order for a semiotic code to be operating, a “mind” must be at play. So I guess Ortho thinks there is a little homunculus in his computer’s CPU. Now that’s funny.
.
Ortho at #14
I did not try “to make something out of the word discontinuous”, and it is deceptive on your part to dismiss the science in those terms. I told you the critical physical condition of the system (described as such in the literature) that allows the system to function as it does, in a material universe determined by inexorable physical law. The gene system must have the physical freedom to specify itseIf, as well as any variation of itself. In case it has not occurred to you, there is no ”capacity to specify” recorded among the physical properties of matter listed on the periodic table, and binding those atoms together does not suddenly create that capacity. It is only established by a particular type of arrangement of matter; one that, as Michael Polanyi noted, “harnesses the laws of inanimate nature” but in an arrangement that is ”irreducible to those laws”. That is exactly what a physical analysis of the system has demonstrated, and is exactly what has been recorded in the literature.
Take out a piece of paper and write the words “DNA codon” at the top of the page. Drop down a few inches below and write the words “mRNA codon”. Drop down further still and write the words “charged tRNA anti-codon”, and below that write the phrase “amino acid presented for binding”. You can now draw a straight line from the top of the page to the bottom, indicating the chain of chemical interactions that begins with a codon of DNA and results in an amino acid being presented for binding during protein synthesis. This would include the processes of transcription, translation and polymerization. But as you will quickly notice, there is no chemical reaction in that chain of events that actually specifies which particular amino acid is being presented for binding.
You can now draw another line (joining your original line, but perpendicular to it) directly underneath the words “charged tRNA anti-codon”. At the end of this new perpendicular line, you can now write the word “aaRS”. The set of aaRS are the molecules in biology that specify which particular amino acids will be associated with each tRNA anticodon. And as I told you before, the work of the aaRS is both temporally and spatially independent of the chain of events represented by the first line you drew down the page. This independence, introduced only by the organization of the system, is what allows the system to function as it does – to specify itself among alternatives. Hence, the word “discontinuous” … as in the discontinuous association between a codon of DNA and the resulting amino acid being presented for biding. It is discontinuous because it has to be in order to function as it does. Check your Periodic Table for that.
What is also worth noting that not a single one of these interactions is even the least bit controversial, which should put your attempted dismissal into proper perspective. But in case it doesn’t, your tacit concession does:
Barry, I’m simply replying to ET, who seems to think transcription proofreading requires knowledge, I don’t see that it does.
I’m sorry ub, but I find this entirely underwhelming with regards to Barry’s original claim.
Ortho
All you’ve got is personal incredulity? Why didn’t you say so in the first place and we wouldn’t have wasted time on you?
I mean, you were incredulous that the genetic code worked through chemical reactions. UB keeps explaining the reactions and how they relate to each other. I think the only polite thing I can say is that I can’t see how this amounts to a defence of your position.
Folks, the US is one step removed from deliberate plagues as part of its 4th gen unacknowledged civil war. That is how bad this is. As it is, lockdown on plague fears has become part of a political calculus on assumption that people vote their pocketbooks so if we can scapegoat Mr X, we can unseat him and get back to our worldview-infused political/cultural agenda. If you are implicitly willing to influence a decision on the dismal balance of pandemic deaths vs recession/depression deaths towards creating needless harm to win an election, that is demonically sick. Where, closely linked, is unwillingness to acknowledge steadily accumulating empirical evidence supportive of HCQ cocktails as a buy time for immune system to kill the infection treatment. (There are no true “cures” for highly infectious viruses.) Do we really read the signs of our times? KF
PS: FWIW, and this is far, far from endorsement [for cause . . .], I would suggest that between the emerging scandal of policing agencies and courts [starting with FISA] getting politicised and carrying out vendettas that now have documents with smoking gun handwriting finally reaching the public after 2 years of delay tactics, the inconsistency on “me Too” now affecting a campaign, blatant media bias, social media censorship [as in we can be platforms and prblishers unacountable over what we implicitly endorse] other issues leading to rising polarisation, the smart money bets on Peasant Rebellion 2, with 3 likely to follow. Get used to the age of peasant uprisings by ballot box, or it will become by the bullet box. And, trends are key to analysis.
Ortho, drop the strawman caricatures of UB or me please. We are very aware of a physical layer, the issue is the higher, information processing infused layers, codes, protocols and procedures. Architecture of systems is a thing. KF
PS: Automated proofreading, editing to get mRNA etc uses atoms etc but is addressing issues at much higher levels. The ones just mentioned. I am thinking materialist ideology is blinkering you directly or indirectly so you are not seeing the information processing infused layers. Beyond a point pseudo-clever rhetorical stunts based on such blinkering backfire. As Jesus once warned, “Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!”
KF @ 45: “Folks, the US is one step removed from deliberate plagues as part of its 4th gen unacknowledged civil war. That is how bad this is. As it is, lockdown on plague fears has become part of a political calculus on assumption that people vote their pocketbooks so if we can scapegoat Mr X, we can unseat him and get back to our worldview-infused political/cultural agenda.”
KF@46: “Ortho, drop the strawman caricatures of UB or me please.”
You want him to stop quoting you then?
MS, it seems you are snipping two things out of context and stitching them into a wholly other thing. I spoke to something I am frankly worried about in the manifest falling apart of the US as a polity; where 4th gen war is a shadow war that is often unacknowledged as such — it took decades in my homeland. In that context, there is something very ugly indeed about how a pandemic is being managed, multiplied by several other truly ugly developments that frankly threaten to set fatal disaffection loose. Historically, that has incalculable cost, usually with dire consequences, e.g. Syria and Egypt leading up to c 628 – 40 under the Byzantine empire. If you don’t hear a plea to pull back from apocalypse similar to 1914, you haven’t heard it right. By contrast, the caricature in question is a refusal to look at information-infused layers in information systems and to then misrepresent UB and others as though we were rejecting that there is a physical layer in such. KF
BA, personal incredulity of course is too often a manifestation of selective hyperskepticism. Institutionalised, it becomes part of ideological closed mindedness. If that is entrenched in power, it can take a polity over the edge of an abyss. Changing the metaphor, if the ideologically blinkered, power-drunk mutineers seize the ship of state, they will predictably take it to shipwreck. And yes, that is Plato’s Socrates in The Republic Bk VI. KF
MS,
As material context, you may want to scroll up to 29, with AS78:
That is the sort of material from which fatal disaffection grows, once things slide downslope from there.
KF
.
As I said in the original thread Ortho, if Ed’s cop out is your cop out, then take it.
UB, it is time to draw conclusions about the merits, given that consistently very weak dismissive arguments have been used. Likewise, the persistent resort to weak dismissive arguments shows balance on ability to address substance. In this context, the case of a WIKI image showing interwoven, human mitochondrial DNA code, with start and stop is absolutely telling: https://uncommondescent.com/informatics/an-example-of-interwoven-protein-code-ht-wiki/ The interweaving of code of course exponentiates functional specificity; I thanked my lucky stars I never had to try that with machine code. That image is in its own way an utterly iconic admission against interest. KF
Ortho:
What initiates and directs it?
Mind? No. Just programming.
And yes, proof-reading, error-correction, editing and splicing all require knowledge. And no one cares that you don’t think that they do. You definitely cannot demonstrate those can happen without knowledge.
KF
I agree. And, hopefully, Trump will someday be held accountable.
EG, it is very obvious that there are two sides to the issue but given polarisation, stunts like that are to be expected. Lives are of transfinite worth (on good authority) so the only reasonable debate is that we face a dismal tradeoff of lives lost vs lives lost: a plague will kill, a prolonged lockdown also kills though less directly. If we were a sane civilisation, evidence on cost effective drugs would have been addressed and degree and durations of lock downs and quarantines would be calibrated to the net minimal loss. The contrast between what might have been and what is (as well as how our chattering classes discuss) is telling. KF
Why hold Trump accountable for the fact that we, the people, don’t live healthy lifestyles? Why hold him accountable for natural selection? What this has exposed is the fact that nursing homes are NOT giving their residents the proper nutrition nor the proper care.
Recently listened to an hour long you tube interview who did a study for anti bodies on the employees of the MLB. Pretty interesting stuff. Here is the bottom line.
Thanks to China the lockdowns came to late. Only .007% tested for the anti bodies which means we may not have even scratched the surface as to “herd immunity”. We have shut down our economy needlessly and get prepared for second and third waves as all those who have been locked down go out and about.
Vivid
Then there is this
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/05/18/telegraph-uk-lockdown-a-result-of-the-most-devastating-software-mistake-of-all-time/
Vivid
Then there is this, according to NPR we spent 660 million dollars on field hospitals for this
SUNY Stone Brook, zero patients.
SUNY Old Westbury, zero patients.
McCormick Place , 37 patients.
West Chester County, zero patients.
Colorado Convention Center , zero patients.
Miami Beach Convention, zero patients.
Sherman Hospital , zero patients.
Metro South Medical, zero patients.
West lake Hospital, zero patients.
Wisconsin State Fair, zero patients.
Suburban Collection 6 patients.
Javits Center, 1095 patients.
TCF Center, 39 patients.
Vivid
The shuttering of another German slaughterhouse to stem a coronavirus outbreak added to calls for tighter rules in an industry long criticized for poor working conditions and crowded accommodation for seasonal staff.
Production at the meat plant in Lower Saxony was halted Monday after 92 of its workers tested positive for Covid-19, the district of Osnabrueck said in a statement. The infected staff, many of whom live together, have since been quarantined.
More than 1,000 workers at European slaughterhouses from Ireland to Germany have contracted the disease, highlighting the growing challenges the global meat industry faces from the pandemic.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-18/virus-outbreak-at-german-meat-factory-adds-to-crisis-in-industry
In one of many ironies involving the coronavirus, data suggests that Asian-Americans – who have weathered bigotry and attacks as suspected disease carriers – are the least likely to be infected or die from the scourge out of all ethnic groups in the US.
Data on Covid-19 infections and mortality in New York City broken down by ethnicity suggests Asians have the lowest infection and mortality rates of any group.
Similar figures from Los Angeles found Asians had the lowest infection rate among all groups.
Cindy Song, a retired government employee living in Washington, saw the Covid-19 storm coming and hunkered down.
Alerted by Chinese friends on social media about the danger, by early March she had cancelled all travel plans and doctor’s appointments, was avoiding restaurants, acquaintances or supermarkets and wore masks and kept her distance on the rare times she ventured out.
“ We already knew the disease, the virus, was really lethal, really bad stuff,” said Song, a native of Jiangsu province. “But whenever we got out and saw other people, and people we knew, they would give us this feeling that we were just overreacting.”
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3084947/asians-us-least-likely-get-coronavirus-infection-data-suggests