Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Francis Collins: “I greatly respect William Dembski…best wishes to Salvador Cordova and the IDEA club”

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I mentioned earlier my delight that the GMU Provost was willing to put his good name behind Francis Collins book tour: GMU Provost hosts The Language of God.

Well, the talk happened and it was amazing! Francis Collins gave his Christian testimony tonight pretty much along the lines of his book. He recounted his conversion from atheism to the Christian faith. He referred to the Design argument and the creation of the cosmos. The word “Design” kept slipping out of his mouth.

He said the cosmological argument points to God, but it cannot establish Him as personal. For that Collins appealed to the moral conscience which we find in men. He recounted that evolution cannot explain altruism and so many things about what makes us human. He said group selection and kin selection fails to explain these qualities. He concluded these facets of human beings pointed us to the Creator.

From his book:

The Big Bang cries out for a divine explanation. It forces the conclusion that nature had a defined beginning. I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that.

If the Law of Human Nature cannot be explained away as cultural artifact or evolutionary by-product, then how can we account for its presence? There is truly something unusual going on here. To quote Lewis, “If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe–no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in that house. The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that is just what we do find inside ourselves. Surely this ought to arouse our suspicions?”

Encountering this argument at age twenty-six, I was stunned by it’s logic. Here, hiding in my own heart as familiar as anything in daily experience, but now emerging for the first time as a clarifying principle, this Moral Law shone its bright white light into the recesses of my childish atheism, and demanded a serious consideration of its origin. Was this God looking back at me?

Then during the very brief Q&A I managed only one question. I introduced myself and said, “Thank you Dr. Collins for your courage in writing your book. Here is a gift from the IDEA club and a friend from the Discovery Institute who wanted you to have it. It is the Privileged Planet DvD.”

Collins smiled, and said, “I already have it, but I’d be delighted to have another copy.”

I said, “I have a comment and question. I have been monitoring the demographics at universities. About 1/3 of the biology majors accept intelligent design. Even here at George Mason, at least 3 creationists were awarded PhD’s in biology. Do you see this could be a problem that in the future that there could be so many scientists that accept ID?”

Collins said, “I accept intelligent design in that God created the universe…”. But he said he doesn’t accept ID for biology. Let me quote his book as it echoes what he said in response to me:

The perceived gaps in evolution that ID intended to fill with God are instead being filled by advances in science. By forcing this limited, narrow view of God’s role, Intelligent Design is ironically on a path toward doing considerable damage to faith.

The sincerity of the proponents of Intelligent Design can hardly be questioned….If believers have attached their last vestiges of hope that God could finda a place in human existence through ID theory, and that theory collapses, what happens to faith?

He really seemed worried that IDers would someday be disappointed. But I really think he gives too much credit to the Darwinian community for having succeeded in demonstrating ID false.

Collins’ anti-ID arguments are laid out in his book. He recommended a book by one of our UD visitors, Darrel Falk. Falk’s book was Coming to Peace With Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology (Paperback).

He seemed genuinely distressed that so many accept ID. Collins said, “I have no axe to grind. I accept Intelligent Design for the universe. If ID is true for biology I would embrace it. But I caution everyone out there that I think it has cracks and it will be overturned scientifically.” I did not sense that he was inimical to IDers, but that for what ever reason, he thought the problem of Irreducible Complexity has been solved!

He then mentioned Bill, “I greatly respect William Dembsk for what he said….” Let me quote Collin’s book specifically for what he praised Bill for:

From my perspective as a geneticist, a biologist, and a believer in God, this movement [the ID movement] deserves serious consideration…ID could be tought of ironically as the rebellious love child of Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett.
….
William Dembski, the leading mathematical modeler of the ID movement, deservers credit for emphasizing the overarching importance of seeking out the real truth: “Intelligent Design must not become a noble lie for vanquishing views we find unacceptable (history is full of noble lies that ended in disgrace). Rather, Intelligent Design needs to convince us of its truth on its scientific merits.” Dembski is absolutely correct in that assertion, and yet his own statement portends the ultimate demise of ID
…..
A sober evaluation of current scientific information would have to conclude that this outcome [the demise of ID] is already at hand.

It might have been easy for many IDers in the audience to have turned red with a bit of rage over that portion of Collins talk, but I felt none of that. I simply saw a great scientist mistaken about an issue, and he got so much of the rest right. I mean, Hector Avalos wanted to punish Guillermo Gonzalez for the very things Collins was saying that night, but here at GMU, Collins was welcomed and heralded as a great scientist, and there was no shame whatsoever for him to share his deeply personal views. I would gladly welcome Collins into the ID community as a real and sincere critic. I do not view him as “the enemy”. I am confident Collins isn’t out to destroy ID. I think he is willing to see ID succeed. He does not have a vested interest in seeing ID fail.

He signed my copy of his book, “best wishes to Salvador Cordova and the IDEA club”. He cringed a bit when Caroline Crocker and I were getting our books signed as I pointed out the three of us were actually all together in the same Coral Ridge Hour TV series (see: Crocker and Sisson’s TV appearance helps launch a half-million dollar pro-Design campaign). I told him I was sorry over what happened in that he was not made aware of the complete content of the TV series. I thanked him for his visit, and said, “God bless you, Dr. Collins”.

The one news item I gleaned is that he debated Dawkins 2 weeks ago, and he was speculating whether Time magazine would cover the discussion. [imho, Dawkins doesn’t hold a candle to Collins as a scientist]. He also indicated he was being severely criticized for writing his book.

But I really don’t think he’s getting that much flak. I would bet the NCSE would have been thrilled at the reconciliation of Christianity and Darwinism which Collins offered this evening. I would not be surprised if the evolutionary community has been giving their whole-hearted blessings to such overtly Christian messages as long as Darwin’s theory is treated as fact. No kidding, I really think the AAAS, NCSE, and the evolutionary community are so desperate to fight ID they’d hire Christian pastors and Evangelists to spread the news that “Darwin loves you (and has a wonderful plan for your life)!”. Lest any one doubt my claim, see: NCSE faith project director. They would gladly concede a little ground to Christianity if it will keep Darwinism intact. I mean, look at the NCSE website and how much they try to promote themselves as Christ-friendly Darwinists of late. Eugenie gets her anti-ID book endorsed by a pastor. Remember, it was Eugenie who said that in the game of selling evolution, “One clergyman with a backward collar is worth two biologists”.

Here is the irony. If someone from the Discovery Institute spoke, the talk would be characterized as an fundamentalist plot to spread the Christian faith. If a pro-Darwin scientist speaks about Jesus Christ, they are applauded for helping people of faith warm toward the “science” of Darwinism. Such speakers will be given a free-pass to share the Gospel. Is their any complaint from Barbara Forrest about Collins helping to spread the Christian faith? Has there been an ounce of outrage in the blogsphere of Collins sharing the Gospel on college campuses? Maybe only a little, but not much.

Comments
Collins: "The sincerity of the proponents of Intelligent Design can hardly be questioned….If believers have attached their last vestiges of hope that God could finda a place in human existence through ID theory, and that theory collapses, what happens to faith?" There are three kinds of religionists, that I can tell, culturists, gnostics, and evidentialists. If Collins' fear of ID collapsing is realized, the evidentialists might be disappointed somewhat, the culturists probably wouldn't care at all unless the crowd shifted in response to some bellwether, and I doubt the gnostics would be the least bit moved. (Some people are a combination of these, of course.) Most people don't leave their faith (if they ever had any) because of something like this, anyway. They usually drift away and while Darwinist might bolster where they find themselves, it is rarely a reason for the drift in my experience. True committed believers have powerful reasons in their faith arsenal to stay where they are. There is typically a strong gnostic component which is hard to knock down. So I wouldn't worry about it.mike1962
October 19, 2006
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"To quote Lewis, “If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe." Of course, as Lewis also acknowledged elsewhere, that "controlling power" could conceivably incarnate within this universe and communicate in a proximate way, which is what Jesus is supposed to have done.mike1962
October 19, 2006
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jaredl, Were you at Jonathan Well's talk last week at the Discovery Institute? Was that you in the front row asking questions about cosmological ID? Salscordova
October 19, 2006
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then it is assertible that said event/phenomenon is designed. If an event fails to meet that requirement, then its design is unassertible.
Asserting something is designed, formally speaking, does not necessarily mean it is intelligently designed:
Wm. Dembski pg 36 of The Design Inference: The principal advantage of characterizing design as a complement of regularity and chance is that it avoids committing itself to a doctrine of intelligent agency. Defining design as the negation of regularity and chance avoids prejudicing the causal stories we associate with the design inference.
This merely shows the equivalence of labelling human designed objects with other kinds of objects in nature. It is consistent with the way a Darwinist would even say a biological system has a design.
Since the laws of nature that we know of at present constitute our only example of laws of nature, the laws cannot meet the specification criterion. Hence, the claim that the laws of nature are designed is unassertible.
We can assert it as designed in terms of it's properties. Whether the mechanism is intelligence or many-worlds is another story. It is however a very reasonable hypothesis, and by reasonable, I mean methodologically equivalent to any other inference we make in the every day world. One would not look at a car and conclude it was the product of many worlds. The immediate answer is intelligence. ID is at least as plausible as Many World's (MWI) in practice. If we do not in practice use MWI to explain the design of cars, why use it to explain the universe? That is what I mean by arguments of methodological equivalence. We don't know for sure the sun will rise tomorrow. We can however compare assertions with our level of confidence the sun will rise tomorrow. That is what I mean by methodological equivalence. For practical purposes at least, things methodologically equivalent (or at least good enough) to the assertion, "the sun will rise tomorrow" is good enough to qualify for most people's epistemology. scordova
October 19, 2006
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Sal - Help me out. I take Dembski's work as definitive, with respect to justifying a design inference. I'll get to Meyer's paper in a bit (kind of long for work hours). Here's my view - if an event/phenomenon meets the specification criterion of Dembski's latest version of the design inference, then it is assertible that said event/phenomenon is designed. If an event fails to meet that requirement, then its design is unassertible. Since the laws of nature that we know of at present constitute our only example of laws of nature, the laws cannot meet the specification criterion. Hence, the claim that the laws of nature are designed is unassertible. Have I misunderstood something?jaredl
October 19, 2006
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If believers have attached their last vestiges of hope that God could finda a place in human existence through ID theory, and that theory collapses, what happens to faith?
His arrogance in assuming that my faith rests on the latest pontifications of him and his colleagues is amusing. My faith stands with or without his approval. The fact that Science™ is finally dragging itself reluctantly toward what believers have held true for millenia is just a little icing on the cake.sagebrush gardener
October 19, 2006
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Yes, if one leg of science is refutation the other has to be faith . . . and so we invest our hearts in theories that take us to the moon yet for which we have no final proof. So why can’t Collins turn it around and say, “Darwinism must not become a noble lie for vanquishing views we find unacceptable (such as ecclesiastical and/or biblical authority, oppressive sexual mores). Rather, Darwinism needs to convince us of its truth on its scientific merits.” There is the infallibility of Darwin as apostle of Materialism, that’s the overriding factor in the present hysteria, but I also think the academy is full of narrow specialists too “nice” to criticize the supposed expertise of their colleagues. And then there is the inverse of that wherein the expertise of the Nobel laureate in one narrow field, or even the celebrity status of a Hollywood star, confers authority on matters political and social that--chances are--the rancher down the road has a superior grasp on. As for Collins’ pitiful plea:
If believers have attached their last vestiges of hope that God could find a place in human existence through ID theory, and that theory collapses, what happens to faith?
Really—has Modernism banished the Deity so thoroughly from all aspects of our world such that now we can only protect his ethereal essence behind the Big Bang? I say it’s only in our imagination—we have so wanted not to retain God in our knowledge that we have blinded our eyes to the marvelous evidence that science continues to uncover—be it in biology, archaeology, the human sciences, even biblical studies. Even history ought to have informed us, as Sir Winston Churchill famously said in his speech to a joint session of the US Congress just after Pearl Harbor in 1941: “… that he must indeed have a blind soul who cannot see that some great purpose and design is being worked out here below, of which we have the honour to be the faithful servants.” Here one might contrast David Horowitz’ wonderfully written, Qohelet style cri du coeur, The End of Time (Encounter Books, 2005), with Sheldon Glashow’s observation in The Charm of Physics (Masters of Modern Physics. AIP Press, 1991) that no scientist ever discovers anything unless he somehow knows deep in his bones, all evidence to the contrary, that things are good. Not all have this optimism deep in their bones--but maybe it's important to note that it is they who are the driving force in science--the rest is commentary and the role of Devil's advocate.Rude
October 19, 2006
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jaredl, Every theory is built with a degree of faith, even mathematics. What Collins demonstrated is what Meyer calls methodological equivalence, not absolute proof. ID arguments can be classified as arguments of methodologically equivalence, not absolute proofs. See The Methodological Equivalence of Design & Descent: Can There Be a Scientific "Theory of Creation"? Salscordova
October 19, 2006
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Sal, You say "his cosmological argument he offers as a plausibility argument, not a proof argument. I think in that respect he has answered your question." Please help me to interpret this correctly - his argument is an argument from personal incredulity?jaredl
October 19, 2006
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methinks Dr. Collins doth not know what biological ID is and the arguments which support it.Scott
October 19, 2006
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ajl, I appreciate your post. As powerful as the BF is an evidence for design, I have been reluctant personally use it as an example because it is outside my field of specialty. Behe is likely right, but both Mike Gene and I consider it a good and probably correct argument, but not yet completely airtight (not that I think there are that many airtight arguments in any science primarily because of incompleteness issues and uncertainties defined by the laws of physics themselves). In contrast, the case for the biological Turing Machine being designed is so strong that several peer-reviewed papers promoting ID or at least friendly to ID have already come out. Unlike the BF, there is a colossal body of literature on the design of computers. The scientists at the forefront know the score. Here is the essay I wrote: Perfect Architectures Which Scream Design Regarding the front loading, even the creationists are warming to the idea. One of the creationists awarded a PhD in biology from GMU was Gordon Wilson (2003). He believes there were dual gene sets for benevolent vs. malevolent abilities within creatures. That means there there could be front-loaded IC all over the place, and probably dormant benevolent modes in various creatures. The idea is so extreme few would entertain it except in places like the Baraminology group. I don't think it's so outrageous personally. There was the long held theological belief people once lived almost as long as Methuselah. There was once upon a time a mode in humanity for longevity that is no longer in operation, yet the artifacts are still in our genome of that former mode of operation. I pointed that out in my discussion of Geron Corporation's activation of the Immortalizing Enzyme in the human cell: see: How IDers can win the war I believe ID can make great advances in uncovering dormant or deactivated designs. The Lord has honored the office of Physician, I believe medical advances through ID will someday transpire because IDers are willing to look in places where no one else will care to look.scordova
October 19, 2006
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sure, but even Behe said in that audio that was linked yesterday (btw, great audio!) that perhaps God front-loaded the whole thing during the Big Bang. My point is that for someone like you, if the BF was ever overturned and shown that a RM&NS process created it, I doubt very much your faith would be hurt. You have studied the ideas yourself, and if there were a few changes along the way, I'm sure you'd adapt. I think Collins is worried (maybe without warrant) that many people are jumping onto ID without any real understanding of it. And, he's saying your faith has to be more than based on the BF or other arguments like that. Like you, I don't understand why Collins rejects ID when you consider the language of DNA, but I think part of it is that he is open to science changing, and doesn't want to hang his faith on science entirely.ajl
October 19, 2006
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ajl, I think for many in ID it's not a matter of what we don't know, it's a matter of what we do know. I don't study the BF (Bacterial Flagellum) that much, but I understand Turing Machines and computers much better. That was my field of study for 6+ years in school. The Turing Machies (computers) inside the cell are far more sophisticated than the ones I have worked on for years. Added to that, the Darwinian explantions don't work, and will never work, and with my background in information science and engineering, I find acceptance of ID a simple matter-of-fact, not a matter-of-faith. I honestly cannot see it otherwise. I could of course be wrong, but I doubt it :-) My belief that the Designer is the Christian God is a matter of faith. Salscordova
October 19, 2006
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My major regret is that since he has Privileged Planet already, I would have given him Sanford’s Genetic Entropy instead.
Sal, yes, that might have been a good choice. I spoke to Sanford about the mouse genome page, and he said that many of the examples of shared "junk" are falling apart. I don't necessarily understand this statement. Has anyone got insight as to whether this is true or not?ajl
October 19, 2006
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jpark320 wrote: I think that both OEC and YEC agree that God had a guiding influence on the creation of man. Sad that one of the most easily discernible obvious facts of the Bible got lost in all his “science.” Geez wrong on theology and science…
The most polemic things coming out of the Q&A were YECs hammering Collins with the Bible. A few were surprised I didn't go after Collins about his claims of ID and his support of Darwinian evolution. My view is there are plenty of non-IDers out their to fight. Collins in my view is mistaken, he is not "the enemy". He has no ill-will toward IDers, "no axe to grind." I sensed there were many Christians in the audience who appreciated someone of his reputation elevating the reputation of people of faith. He got a very long and sustained applause at the end. There was a time I would have totally been enraged over what he said about creation science and ID, but I recall there was a time I was a Theistic Evolutionist like him. I recall there was a time Dean Kenyon and Caroline Crocker and John Sanford were Theistic Evolutionists. His heart is in the right place, perhaps in time his mind will be where it needs to be someday. I would rather think he needs support and appreciation and welcoming into the ID community as a respected critic. He has already offered ID at the cosmological level, and for that I am very grateful. I don't think the ID community has anything to gain by going after Collins. Rather, if ID continues to make its case on science, things will take care of itself. Salscordova
October 19, 2006
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I think Collins is wise in his statement:
“If believers have attached their last vestiges of hope that God could finda a place in human existence through ID theory, and that theory collapses, what happens to faith?”
the reality is, many believers are looking for the quick answer, be it ID, "A Purpose Driven Life", "The Prayer of Jabez", etc., etc. I heard a pastor recently tout ID and IC especially, and talked about the woodpecker. After reading about how the woodpecker works, he said "now if that isn't complex, I don't know what is". Well, certainly the woodpecker is complex, but that doesn't mean that it is irreducibly complex. So, here was a guy who doesn't really know what IC means talking about it because ID/IC is the "next Prayer of Jabez" for him. I know the pastor was sincere, but I think Collins is correct - your faith should not rest on the fact that there is currently no explanation for the BF gradual formulation. The truth is, there may never be, and the BF may be IC, but if as an organism it isn't, then your faith may come crashing down around you.ajl
October 19, 2006
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jaredl, Sorry I couldn't get your question through. There were 500 people in the room clamoring for time and I was glad I had the chance to put my little question through. I don't know how to get a hold of Collins, but i will point out his cosmological argument he offers as a plausibility argument, not a proof argument. I think in that respect he has answered your question. Even the question I asked was not directly answered. My major regret is that since he has Privileged Planet already, I would have given him Sanford's Genetic Entropy instead. Salscordova
October 19, 2006
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Well, I guess I need to ask my question directly of him, then - how can I get ahold of him?jaredl
October 19, 2006
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Dr. Collins' might be a good scientist, but once he comes out and professes that he is a Christian he should be willing accept what the Bible says about the creation of man. Actually he already has stated how he believes God created man... I think that both OEC and YEC agree that God had a guiding influence on the creation of man. Sad that one of the most easily discernible obvious facts of the Bible got lost in all his "science." Geez wrong on theology and science...jpark320
October 19, 2006
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I've found very interesting the Collins' words for they perfectly confirm why many christian scientists do not support ID. "If believers have attached their last vestiges of hope that God could finda a place in human existence through ID theory, and that theory collapses, what happens to faith?" The more reasonable answer would be simply: there wouldn't happen nothing: Faith does not require an empirical proof. However this is not at all a reason for close the eyes and non see the overwhelming presence of design in the universe only for the (very hypotetical indeed) possibility that in the future science could really prove that M+NS is sufficiente to produce the biological world. The real problem is IMHO that christian scientists should realize that there is no real scientific reason to give ND more credit than it is worth. "A sober evaluation of current scientific information would have to conclude that this outcome [the demise of ID] is already at hand." This seems more a transient success of ND tries to assure scientists that IC could not be a problem than a real success. After all in my experience all the people who outline heavy critics about ID arguments really do so without a sufficient knowledge about. I would end by rewriting the Collins' word: An objective and clever evaluation of current scientific information should lead us to conclude that, in spite of its apparent scientific demise, the most important expected outcome of ID, i.e. the demise of ND theory as an accepted fact, is already at hand."kairos
October 19, 2006
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