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Free will is a practical question for the mindfulness therapist

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But denying it is an article of faith for Darwin’s followers.

Further to “Psychiatrist slammed in National Geographic publication for signing Dissent from Darwinism statement”: There we learn from a book reviewer that psychiatrist Jeff Schwartz’s “obsessions corrupted his work,” which is developing credible mindfulness-based treatments for obsessive compulsive disorder. Signing the Dissent statement was the evidence offered. Such is the fate, presumably, of all who pause at Darwin’s Westminster Abbey grave to say “goodbye”

The reality is, thanks in part to attitudes such as the reviewer exhibits—judging the treatment by the philosophy of its developer, not by evidence—psychiatry is in such a huge mess that the its handbook, the DSM is no longer accepted in key venues.

The issue, for Schwartz, turns on whether or not there is such a thing as free will. The assumption of free will is critical to mindfulness therapies for practical purposes.

Philosophies and religions have various opinions about ultimate free will. The therapist must ask, is my patient capable of carrying out a program that requires that he choose to focus his attention on A and not B? In practice, this turns out to be true for many patients, which makes the therapy useful. There is neuroscience evidence for brain reorganization as a result, showing that it is not merely an imagined effect.

Now, if someone wishes to claim, as many outspoken advocates of Darwinian evolution have, for example, that free will is impossible, the only thing that a mindfulness therapist can say is, go away. Either they are mistaken or the research results from mindfulness therapies are.

Or—a third possibility— the issues the Darwinians wish to address are not really science issues anyway, but philosophical ones. Put another way, Schwartz wouldn;t want to lose funding for research or treatment on the basis that free will does not really exist when the research results from a mindfulness treatment are actually quite promising. However one chooses to explain that.

See also The Spiritual Brain.

Comments
PeterJ @ 22:
I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where it says that we can use our own ‘free will’, unless where it talks about giving a ‘free will offering’ but even that doesn’t work in favour of man’s ‘free will’.
Did you bother to read the scriptures I quoted earlier, which clearly show that people were given moral choices to make? Jeremiah 21:8 reads “And to this people you will say, ‘This is what Jehovah has said: “Here I am putting before YOU people the way of life and the way of death." Ezekiel 31:11-13: Say to them, ‘“As I am alive,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel?”’ Galatians 6:7: “Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap.” God extends to everybody a free choice. Through Moses, God admonished the people of Israel: “I have put life and death before you . . . and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him.”—Deut. 30:19, 20.Barb
September 1, 2013
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PeterJ:
Of course you can choose, but you either make a choice that aligns with God’s will, or being a slave to sin your choices align with it.
Again, you miss the point. The fact that we have a choice indicates free will.
Yes, but we have to ackowledge that there are certain things that God cannot do. For instance, He can not sin, He can not lie, He can not break His covenants, He can’t not love His son, and so on.
Deuteronomy 32:4 indicates that all of God's activities are perfect in that he expresses his attributes of justice, wisdom, love, and power in perfect balance. The Bible assures us: “Nothing is impossible to God.”—Luke 1:37, The Jerusalem Bible. So, then, how do we understand Hebrews 6:18, which states that it is impossible for God to lie? Hopes built on the promises of men so often lead to disappointment. The opposite is true of those who trust in God, because their hope is built on the strongest foundation in the universe, his own promise.Barb
September 1, 2013
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My definition of free will was noted on here a few months ago: freedom of choice in making decisions, whether moral (should I have an abortion?) or inconsequential (should I wear the blue shirt today?). Essentially, free will indicates that we are all free moral agents. We do have the freedom of choice to do good or bad.
Well, that coincides with my effort at parsing "free will" as constrained choice. I can do whatever I have within my power to do and not more. And...Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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Barb, If you are a born again believer, filed with the Spirit of God, you are called to do His will. End of, really. So you either do it, or you don't. Take the Lord's prayer as an example. "Let THY will be done" I don't see anywhere in Scripture where it says that we can use our own 'free will', unless where it talks about giving a 'free will offering' but even that doesn't work in favour of man's 'free will'.PeterJ
September 1, 2013
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Mr. Fox, I am not a fundamentalist. My definition of free will was noted on here a few months ago: freedom of choice in making decisions, whether moral (should I have an abortion?) or inconsequential (should I wear the blue shirt today?). Essentially, free will indicates that we are all free moral agents. We do have the freedom of choice to do good or bad. When you think about it, free choice within the boundaries of God’s laws is not be burdensome but rather results in a delightful variety of food, homes, art, and music. Properly exercised, free will should result in a wonderful, ever-fascinating life on a paradise earth. It's the "properly exercised" part that most of humanity gets wrong.Barb
September 1, 2013
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Barb "But the choice is there, and that is what makes us free moral agents. Hence, we can say we have free will. Not having a choice would mean that we didn’t have free will." Of course you can choose, but you either make a choice that aligns with God's will, or being a slave to sin your choices align with it. "How do you know God doesn’t have free will. Who in this universe can force an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God to do his or her bidding? That is simply illogical. God chose to create. That implies free will." Yes, but we have to ackowledge that there are certain things that God cannot do. For instance, He can not sin, He can not lie, He can not break His covenants, He can't not love His son, and so on. For once I find myself agreeing with Alan here and think it might help if you could give a definition of what you consider free will to be. ThisPeterJ
September 1, 2013
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Barb You give the impression of someone pretty erudite in the ways of fundamentalist Christianity. Can you give me an intelligible definition of free will?Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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I have actually been discussing the doctrine of election with various people on Facebook and of course ‘predestination’ and ‘free will’ were all dully thrown about with varying opinions being put forward.
Predestination is at odds with free will.
I have been looking into this at some depth this weekend because of it (I am now in the process of reading Wayne Grudems ‘Systematic Theology’)and I think i can say with confidence there really is no such thing as ‘free will’.
Here is where we disagree.
After all God doesn’t have ‘free will’, and seeing as how we created to do His will, neither do we.
How do you know God doesn't have free will. Who in this universe can force an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God to do his or her bidding? That is simply illogical. God chose to create. That implies free will.
We either do God’s will (as believers), or we are slaves to sin (unbelievers), therefore none of us really has ‘free will’.
But the choice is there, and that is what makes us free moral agents. Hence, we can say we have free will. Not having a choice would mean that we didn't have free will.
Of course that doesn’t stop us from making choices, but we need to remember that God ordains everythin that goes on, whether we make a good choice or a bad one, whther we mean something for good or mean it for bad, God has ordained it. all.
I mentioned this in another thread on here with respect to God's ability to foreknow events. Consider a few points to ponder: If each one’s moment and manner of death were already fixed at the time of birth or earlier, there would be no need to avoid dangerous situations or to care for one’s health, and safety precautions would not alter mortality rates. But do you believe that a battlefield during war is as safe as one’s home far away from the war zone? Do you care for your health or take your children to the doctor? Obviously, taking precautions is beneficial. Also, let's consider a couple of questions that this point of yours raises: Is everything that happens “the will of God”? 2 Pet. 3:9: “Jehovah . . . is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” Remember, though, that not all respond to his patience. Clearly, it is not “the will of God” when some fail to repent. Jer. 7:23-26: “This word I did express in command upon them [Israel], saying: ‘Obey my voice, and I will become your God, and you yourselves will become my people; and you must walk in all the way that I shall command you, in order that it may go well with you.’ But they did not listen . . . I kept sending to you all my servants the prophets, daily getting up early and sending them. But they did not listen to me, and they did not incline their ear, but they kept hardening their neck.” Obviously, the badness taking place in Israel was not “the will of God.” Does God foreknow and foreordain everything? Isa. 46:9, 10: “I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do.’” Aocording to Isaiah, God makes known his purpose, foreordains certain matters in connection with its accomplishment, and has the almighty power to assure that these will be fulfilled. Deut. 31:20, 21: “I shall bring them [the nation of Israel] to the ground that I have sworn about to their forefathers, which flows with milk and honey, and they will certainly eat and be satisfied and grow fat and turn to other gods, and they will indeed serve them and treat me with disrespect and break my covenant. And it must occur that when many calamities and distresses will come upon them, this song [recounting how they acted because of failing to appreciate God’s favor] must also answer before them as a witness, . . . for I well know their inclination that they are developing today before I bring them into the land about which I have sworn.” Here, please note that God’s ability to discern the outcome of their course did not mean that he was responsible for it or that it was what he wanted for them, but on the basis of what they were doing he could foresee the outcome. Similarly, on the basis of what is observed, a weather forecaster may predict the weather with a great degree of accuracy, but he does not cause it or necessarily like it. Does God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain events prove that he does this regarding all the actions of all his creatures? Rev. 22:17: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” The choice is not foreordained; it is left to the individual. Rom. 2:4, 5: “Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly quality of God is trying to lead you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment.” There is no forcing of individuals to pursue a prescribed course. But there is accountability for what one does. Students of Bible are confident that free will does exist.Barb
September 1, 2013
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Collin, What I'm saying is that God placed man on the earth to do His will in all situations, not our own. Of course we have the ability to make choices, but those choices should align with God's will. If for some reason our choices do not align with God's will, then they are being aligned to our 'sinful nature'. Either way - we serve.PeterJ
September 1, 2013
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Peter, If Adam had no free will, then I have no idea what you mean when you say he chose to do something against the will of God. Would you say that rain chooses to fall?Collin
September 1, 2013
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I’m willing to bet that far more biologists are compatibilists than are determinists.
I doubt any scientist alive today would self-identify as a determinist.Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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In re: (9) -- sure, and it's only a matter of time before the regulars here trot out the same tired old quotes from Provine, Crick, or Rosenberg. But the "many outspoken advocates" -- where are they, exactly? Though the notion of "free will" is hard to define, there is a somewhat deeper or more difficult problem -- is "free will" an observational term or a theoretical one? That is, is the concept of "free will" already at work in just observing that we are capable of voluntary and involuntary actions? Or is free will supposed to explain how we can have both? Another thorny issue here is, of course, the notion of compatibilism. I'm willing to bet that far more biologists are compatibilists than are determinists. Whether compatibilism is a coherent or plausible view is another matter -- what matters here is that, if they take themselves to be compatibilists, then they are not trying to "claim that free will is impossible". At most, the naturalist would be arguing against a specific conception of free will -- the libertarian conception. So what we see here is, as usual for this website, the intellectually dishonest maneuver in which a specific conception of a concept is presented as the only conception available.Kantian Naturalist
September 1, 2013
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"I can for instance agree with my wife or I can shut up." I love it, Alan! I assume there is a third choice - to say, or at least to think, "One day I'll - I'll - well, one day I will, that's all." "My wife makes the small decisions, and I make the big ones. So far there haven't been any big ones." The freedom is the freedom to act in character, and to form your character by your decisions. Certainly not a simple concept to define, but a long way from tranlsating Augustine's "arbitrio" in terms of English "arbitrary."Jon Garvey
September 1, 2013
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Anddid the serpent have a choice? What was in it for him?Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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Hi Gregory, I would never really have classed myself as a Calvanist, Scottish yes, but please don't hold that against me ;) "But did he freely choose to let himself be fooled, to be a fool when he could have chosen otherwise?" Well I suppose that's the crux of the matter isn't it, did he choose freely, or was there something else at play here? I mean had the serpent not put the idea into his head, would he out of his own 'free will' done the deed, in other words; how free was his will? He didn't do God's will, he may to a certain degree have done his own will, but he certainly carried out that of the serpent. Make sense?PeterJ
September 1, 2013
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"I think i can say with confidence there really is no such thing as ‘free will’." - PeterJ Ah, a Scottish Calvinist, isn't that a peach? That's what a bender of a weekend on FB will do for you! "he foolishly chose to disobey Him fooled into believing that he had the free will to do so by the serpent." Did he have the 'free will' to "foolishly choose" or not? He was fooled, yes. But did he freely choose to let himself be fooled, to be a fool when he could have chosen otherwise? Goodness, politics in Scotland sounds so deterministic these days! ;)Gregory
September 1, 2013
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And just who exactly are the “many outspoken advocates of Darwinian evolution” who have claimed that “free will is impossible”?
Jerry Coyne, I guess. "We are legion". ;)Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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AF, From a Christian perspective I don't think 'Free will' really exists. We all have a will, we can all make choices, but we either serve God or serve sin. Whatever we will is derived from the two powers that influence everything we do in this life. For instance, Adam was placed in the garden of Eden to do the 'will of God'. He was of course able to make choices; naming the animals, eating from certain trees, but he foolishly chose to disobey Him fooled into believing that he had the free will to do so by the serpent.PeterJ
September 1, 2013
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psychiatry is in such a huge mess that the its handbook, the DSM is no longer accepted in key venues
DSM is as an American manual (and not actually the official manual of mental disease for the USA although the crazy US health system has propelled it into prime position there). The world outside North America uses ICD-10 as it prime manual for mental disease. This follows the totally fallacious story about Jane Austen replacing Darwin on the £10 note. If, as I suspect, both of these were written by Denyse I am really surprised that as Canadian you seem unable to see beyond the US standpoint.Mark Frank
September 1, 2013
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Can someone supply a consensus definition of "free will"? I can make choices within the limited options available. I can for instance agree with my wife or I can shut up. Therefore I have free will?Alan Fox
September 1, 2013
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And just who exactly are the "many outspoken advocates of Darwinian evolution" who have claimed that "free will is impossible"?Kantian Naturalist
September 1, 2013
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I can say with confidence that there really is such a thing as free will. Stating personal beliefs or opinions as fact make it so.wentzelitis
September 1, 2013
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Hi Barb, I have actually been discussing the doctrine of election with various people on Facebook and of course 'predestination' and 'free will' were all dully thrown about with varying opinions being put forward. I have been looking into this at some depth this weekend because of it (I am now in the process of reading Wayne Grudems 'Systematic Theology')and I think i can say with confidence there really is no such thing as 'free will'. After all God doesn't have 'free will', and seeing as how we created to do His will, neither do we. We either do God's will (as believers), or we are slaves to sin (unbelievers), therefore none of us really has 'free will'. Of course that doesn't stop us from making choices, but we need to remember that God ordains everythin that goes on, whether we make a good choice or a bad one, whther we mean something for good or mean it for bad, God has ordained it. all.PeterJ
September 1, 2013
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This is a false dichotomy based on the 17-19th century deterministic physics. Laws of physics as known today are fundamentally indeterministic (quantum theory, capable of making only probabilistic predictions), hence they don't contradict additional choice.nightlight
September 1, 2013
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Aquinas argued that perfect happiness is found not in created things but in God, who is the supreme good. Man's moral constitution consisted of sensuality, appetites, the will, and reason. What confers upon the man the attributes of morality is that these elements are the ingredients of free acts. If a person were moved to act by his appetites in a mechanical or rigorously determined way, his acts would not be free and couldn't be considered from a moral point of view (Samuel Enoch Stumpf, Socrates to Sartre: A History of Philosophy, 5th Edition, pages 189-190). The problem of free will exists because the scientists of the Renaissance developed a scientific mode of thought that stated that nature could be observed and analyzed mathematically. They then extrapolated that thought to include everything else: the planets above, the smallest particles below, and the realm of human behavior (what Aquinas and other philosophers denoted as free will); all could be reduced to a mechanical model. To reduce everything to mere electrochemical impulses misses the point. God did more than create us with just a body and a brain. He also created us with special mental and emotional qualities. A key part of our mental and emotional makeup is free will. Think about this: Do you appreciate having the freedom to choose what you will do and say, what you will eat and wear, what kind of work you will do, and where and how you will live? Or would you want someone to dictate your every word and action every moment of your life? No normal person wants his life taken out of his control so completely. Why not? Because of the way God made us. The Bible tells us that God created man in his ‘image and likeness,’ and one of the faculties God himself has is freedom of choice. (Genesis 1:26; Deuteronomy 7:6) When he created humans, he gave them that same wonderful faculty—the gift of free will. That is one reason why we find it frustrating to be enslaved by oppressive rulers. To go with the gift of free will, God gave us the ability to think, weigh matters, make decisions, and know right from wrong. (Hebrews 5:14) Thus, free will was to be based on intelligent choice. We were not made like mindless robots having no will of their own. Nor were we created to act out of instinct as were the animals. Instead, our marvelous brain was designed to work in harmony with our freedom of choice.Barb
September 1, 2013
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