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From Salon again: Four reasons why ID supposedly falls flat

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3. There’s a whole lot of evidence against it.

Sinuses. Blind spots. External testicles. Backs and knees and feet shoddily warped into service for bipedal animals. Human birth canals barely wide enough to let the baby’s skull pass — and human babies born essentially premature, because if they stayed in utero any longer they’d kill their mothers coming out (which they sometimes do anyway). Wind pipes and food pipes in close proximity, leading to a great risk of choking to death when we eat. Impacted wisdom teeth, because our jaws are too small for all our teeth. Eyes wired backwards and upside-down. The vagus nerve, wandering all over hell and gone before it gets where it’s going. The vas deferens, ditto. Brains wired with imprecise language, flawed memory, fragile mental health, shoddy cost-benefit analysis, poor understanding of probability, and a strong tendency to prioritize immediate satisfaction over long-term gain. Birth defects. 15-20% of confirmed pregnancies ending in miscarriage (and that’s just confirmed pegnancies — about 30% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, and asmany as 75% of all conceptions miscarry). More.

Well then, if life makes any sense at all, there shouldn’t be seven billion people in the world.

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41 Replies to “From Salon again: Four reasons why ID supposedly falls flat

  1. 1
    Joe says:

    LoL! “Evidence against ID”would mean there is evidence for blind watchmaker evolution. Yet there isn’t any beyond disease and deformities.

    Let’s see, blind watchmaker evolution cannot account for eyes, sinuses, knees, backs, feet, birth canals, skulls, nerves, jaws, nor brains. Other than that it’s doing just fine. 🙂

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    4 Reasons Why Neo-Darwinism Is A Pseudo-Science Instead of a Real Science:

    1. No Rigid Mathematical Basis
    2. No Demonstrated Empirical Basis
    3. Random Mutation and Natural Selection Are Both Grossly Inadequate as ‘creative engines’
    4. Information is not reducible to a material basis

    1. No Rigid Mathematical Basis

    The main reason why Darwinian evolution is more properly thought of as a pseudo-science instead of a proper science is because Darwinian evolution has no rigid mathematical basis, like other overarching physical theories of science do. A rigid mathematical basis in order to potentially falsify it (in fact math, in so far as math can be applied to Darwinian claims, constantly shows us that Darwinian evolution is astronomically unlikely),,

    “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?”
    Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003

    WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True – Roger Highfield – January 2014
    Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—’laws’—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology.
    Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation.
    per – The Edge

    Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013
    Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work.

    Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that,, E. coli contain(s) over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance.

    Darwin’s Doubt – Chapter 12 – Complex Adaptations and the Neo-Darwinian Math – Dr. Paul Giem – video;index=7

    See also Mendel’s Accountant and Haldane’s Ratchet: John Sanford

    2. No Demonstrated Empirical Basis

    Another primary reason why Darwinian evolution is more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science rather than a proper physical science is that Darwinian evolution does not have a demonstrated empirical basis to support its claims (in fact empirical evidence also consistently shows us that Darwinian evolution is astronomically unlikely),,

    The Fate of Darwinism: Evolution After the Modern Synthesis – David J. Depew and Bruce H. Weber – 2011
    Excerpt: We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes.,,,

    “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010
    Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.

    Where’s the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism?

    Waiting Longer for Two Mutations – Michael J. Behe
    Excerpt: Citing malaria literature sources (White 2004) I had noted that the de novo appearance of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum was an event of probability of 1 in 10^20. I then wrote that ‘for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would have to wait 100 million times 10 million years’ (1 quadrillion years)(Behe 2007) (because that is the extrapolated time that it would take to produce 10^20 humans). Durrett and Schmidt (2008, p. 1507) retort that my number ‘is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given’ using their model (which nonetheless “using their model” gives a prohibitively long waiting time of 216 million years). Their criticism compares apples to oranges. My figure of 10^20 is an empirical statistic from the literature; it is not, as their calculation is, a theoretical estimate from a population genetics model.

    Don’t Mess With ID (Overview of Behe’s ‘Edge of Evolution’ and Durrett and Schmidt’s paper at the 20:00 minute mark) – Paul Giem – video

    An Open Letter to Kenneth Miller and PZ Myers – Michael Behe July 21, 2014
    Dear Professors Miller and Myers,
    Talk is cheap. Let’s see your numbers.
    In your recent post on and earlier reviews of my book The Edge of Evolution you toss out a lot of words, but no calculations. You downplay FRS Nicholas White’s straightforward estimate that — considering the number of cells per malaria patient (a trillion), times the number of ill people over the years (billions), divided by the number of independent events (fewer than ten) — the development of chloroquine-resistance in malaria is an event of probability about 1 in 10^20 malaria-cell replications. Okay, if you don’t like that, what’s your estimate? Let’s see your numbers.,,,

  3. 3
    bornagain77 says:

    3. Random Mutation and Natural Selection Are Both Grossly Inadequate as ‘creative engines’,,,

    Another reason why Darwinian evolution is more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science rather than a proper physical science is that the two foundational pillars of Darwinian evolution, Random Mutation/Variation and Natural Selection, are both now shown to be severely compromised as to having the causal adequacy that Darwinists have presupposed for them.

    The Edge of Evolution: Why Darwin’s Mechanism Is Self-Limiting – Michael Behe – July 18, 2014 (Part 3 of 3)
    Excerpt: As science probes ever deeper into the molecular details of life,, grave obstacles to undirected evolution have become manifest. Relatively recent, terrific research using the powerful techniques available to modern biology shows three general, separate barriers to a Darwinian (or, for that matter, to any undirected) evolutionary mechanism.
    (1. random mutation, 2. natural selection, 3. irreducible complexity),,,
    It’s important to notice that these three roadblocks are substantially independent of each other. Sequestration of a system to its current function by natural selection is a different problem from the damage done by adaptive-yet-degradative random mutations, both of which are conceptually distinct from the need for multiple, unselected steps to reach some adaptive states. A result of their independence is that they will work synergistically. Undirected evolutionary change faces multiple overpowering restraints.,,,

    For instance in regards to random mutation, although Darwinian evolution appeals to ‘unguided’ random mutations/variations to DNA as the main creative source for all evolutionary novelty, there are now known to be extensive layers of error correction in the cell to protect against any unguided “random” changes happening to DNA in the first place:

    The Evolutionary Dynamics of Digital and Nucleotide Codes: A Mutation Protection Perspective – February 2011
    Excerpt: “Unbounded random change of nucleotide codes through the accumulation of irreparable, advantageous, code-expanding, inheritable mutations at the level of individual nucleotides, as proposed by evolutionary theory, requires the mutation protection at the level of the individual nucleotides and at the higher levels of the code to be switched off or at least to dysfunction. Dysfunctioning mutation protection, however, is the origin of cancer and hereditary diseases, which reduce the capacity to live and to reproduce. Our mutation protection perspective of the evolutionary dynamics of digital and nucleotide codes thus reveals the presence of a paradox in evolutionary theory between the necessity and the disadvantage of dysfunctioning mutation protection. This mutation protection paradox, which is closely related with the paradox between evolvability and mutational robustness, needs further investigation.”

    Moreover, for the vast majority of times that changes do happen to DNA, they are now known to be ‘directed changes’ by sophisticated molecular machines, not unguided ‘random changes’ from a cosmic ray, chemical imbalance, or some such entropy driven event as that:

    How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. – 2013
    Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences.

    Shapiro on Random Mutation:
    “What I ask others interested in evolution to give up is the notion of random accidental mutation.”

    What should be needless to say, having ‘cell-mediated processes’ direct changes to DNA is in direct contradiction to the ‘undirected randomness’ which is held to be foundational to neo-Darwinian thought.

    Moreover, Natural Selection, that other great pillar upon which Darwinian evolution rests, has also been undermined as having the causal adequacy that neo-Darwinists have attributed to it. First off, to the extent that Natural Selection does do anything, Natural Selection is found to be a eliminative force not a generative force:

    “Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing…. Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets.”
    The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics, 2001 (pp. 199-200) William Provine – Professor of Evolutionary Biology – Cornell University

    “…but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have…”
    Maciej Marian Giertych – Population Geneticist – member of the European Parliament – EXPELLED – Natural Selection And Genetic Mutations – video

    From a Frog to a Prince – video (17:00 minute mark Natural Selection Reduces Genetic Information) – No Beneficial Mutations – Gitt – Spetner – Denton – video

    “A Dutch zoologist, J.J. Duyvene de Wit, clearly demonstrated that the process of speciation (such as the appearance of many varieties of dogs and cats) is inevitably bound up with genetic depletion as a result of natural selection. When this scientifically established fact is applied to the question of whether man could have evolved from ape-like animals,’.. the transformist concept of progressive evolution is pierced in its very vitals.’ The reason for this, J.J. Duyvene de Wit went on to explain, is that the whole process of evolution from animal to man ” ‘ . . would have to run against the gradient of genetic depletion. That is to say, . . man )should possess] a smaller gene-potential than his animal ancestors! [I] Here, the impressive absurdity becomes clear in which the transformist doctrine [the theory of evolution] entangles itself when, in flat contradiction to the factual scientific evidence, it dogmatically asserts that man has evolved from the animal kingdom!” —Op. cit., pp. 129-130. [Italics his; quotations from *J.J. Duyvene de Wit, A New Critique of the Transformist Principle in Evolutionary Biology (1965), p. 56,57.]

    “We found an enormous amount of diversity within and between the African populations, and we found much less diversity in non-African populations,” Tishkoff told attendees today (Jan. 22) at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Anaheim. “Only a small subset of the diversity in Africa is found in Europe and the Middle East, and an even narrower set is found in American Indians.”
    Tishkoff; Andrew Clark, Penn State; Kenneth Kidd, Yale University; Giovanni Destro-Bisol, University “La Sapienza,” Rome, and Himla Soodyall and Trefor Jenkins, WITS University, South Africa, looked at three locations on DNA samples from 13 to 18 populations in Africa and 30 to 45 populations in the remainder of the world.-

    As well, Natural Selection is grossly inadequate to do the work required of it because of what is termed ‘the princess and the pea’ paradox. The devastating ‘princess and the pea’ paradox is clearly elucidated by Dr. John Sanford, at the 8:14 minute mark, of this following video,,,

    Genetic Entropy – Dr. John Sanford – Evolution vs. Reality – video

    Dr. Sanford points out, in the preceding video, that Natural Selection acts at the coarse level of the entire organism (phenotype) and yet the vast majority of mutations have effects that are only ‘slightly detrimental’, and have no noticeable effect on phenotypes, and are thus far below the power of Natural Selection to remove from genomes before they spread throughout the population.

    “Selection Threshold Severely Constrains Capture of Beneficial Mutations” – John Sanford – September 6, 2013
    Excerpt of concluding comments: Our findings raise a very interesting theoretical problem — in a large genome, how do the millions of low-impact (yet functional) nucleotides arise? It is universally agreed that selection works very well for high-impact mutations. However, unless some new and as yet undiscovered process is operating in nature, there should be selection breakdown for the great majority of mutations that have small impact on fitness.,,,
    We show that selection breakdown is not just a simple function of population size, but is seriously impacted by other factors, especially selection interference. We are convinced that our formulation and methodology (i.e., genetic accounting) provide the most biologically-realistic analysis of selection breakdown to date.

  4. 4
    bornagain77 says:

    Here are a few more notes on this insurmountable ‘princess and the pea’ problem for natural selection:

    Evolution vs. Genetic Entropy – Andy McIntosh – video

    The GS Principle (The Genetic Selection Principle) – Abel – 2009
    Excerpt: The GS Principle, sometimes called “The 2nd Law of Biology,” states that selection must occur at the molecular/genetic level, not just at the fittest phenotypic/organismic level, to produce and explain life.,,, Natural selection cannot operate at the genetic level.

    The next evolutionary synthesis: Jonathan BL Bard (2011)
    Excerpt: We now know that there are at least 50 possible functions that DNA sequences can fulfill [8], that the networks for traits require many proteins and that they allow for considerable redundancy [9]. The reality is that the evolutionary synthesis says nothing about any of this; for all its claim of being grounded in DNA and mutation, it is actually a theory based on phenotypic traits. This is not to say that the evolutionary synthesis is wrong, but that it is inadequate – it is really only half a theory!

    Moreover, as if that were not devastating enough as to undermining any credibility Natural Selection might have had as to having the causal adequacy to explain the highly integrated levels of overlapping functional information found in organisms, dimensionally speaking, Natural Selection is now known to not even be on the right playing field in the first place:

    The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology
    Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale
    with body size as power laws of the form:

    Y = Yo M^b,

    where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent.
    A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling.

    “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection.” Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79

    Here is, what a Darwinist termed, a ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathway (which operates as if it were ’4-Dimensional):

    ExPASy – Biochemical Pathways – interactive schematic

    And remember, Darwinian evolution has yet to explain a single gene/protein of those ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathways.

    “Charles Darwin said (paraphrase), ‘If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.’ Well that condition has been met time and time again. Basically every gene, every protein fold. There is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in a gradualist way. It’s a mirage. None of it happens that way.
    – Doug Axe PhD. – Nothing In Molecular Biology Is Gradual – video

  5. 5
    bornagain77 says:

    4. Information is not reducible to a material basis:

    The reason why a ‘higher dimensional’ 4-Dimensional structure, such as a ‘horrendously complex metabolic pathway, would be, for all intents and purposes, completely invisible to a 3-Dimensional process, such as Natural Selection, is best illustrated by ‘flatland’:

    Flatland – 3D to 4D shift – Dr. Quantum – video

    I personally hold that the reason why internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional instead of three dimensional is because of exactly what Darwinian evolution has consistently failed to explain the origination of. i.e. functional information. ‘Higher dimensional’ information, which is bursting at the seams in life, simply cannot be reduced to any 3-dimensional energy-matter basis:

    John Lennox – Is There Evidence of Something Beyond Nature? (Semiotic Information) – video

    “One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they posses’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity. Now, if information is not a material entity, then how can any materialistic explanation account for its origin? How can any material cause explain it’s origin?
    And this is the real and fundamental problem that the presence of information in biology has posed. It creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic, evolutionary scenarios because information is a different kind of entity that matter and energy cannot produce.
    In the nineteenth century we thought that there were two fundamental entities in science; matter, and energy. At the beginning of the twenty first century, we now recognize that there’s a third fundamental entity; and its ‘information’. It’s not reducible to matter. It’s not reducible to energy. But it’s still a very important thing that is real; we buy it, we sell it, we send it down wires.
    Now, what do we make of the fact, that information is present at the very root of all biological function? In biology, we have matter, we have energy, but we also have this third, very important entity; information. I think the biology of the information age, poses a fundamental challenge to any materialistic approach to the origin of life.”
    -Dr. Stephen C. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University for a dissertation on the history of origin-of-life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences.

    Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems?
    Excerpt: This paper highlights the distinctive and non-material nature of information and its relationship with matter, energy and natural forces. It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate.
    A.C. McINTOSH – Dr Andy C. McIntosh is the Professor of Thermodynamics Combustion Theory at the University of Leeds. (the highest teaching/research rank in U.K. university hierarchy)

    Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems – Andy C. McIntosh – May 2013
    Excerpt: The third view then that we have proposed in this paper is the top down approach. In this paradigm, the information is non-material and constrains the local thermodynamics to be in a non-equilibrium state of raised free energy. It is the information which is the active ingredient, and the matter and energy are passive to the laws of thermodynamics within the system.
    As a consequence of this approach, we have developed in this paper some suggested principles of information exchange which have some parallels with the laws of thermodynamics which undergird this approach.,,,

    Dr. MacIntosh’s inference that information, transcendent of matter and energy, must be constraining life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium has been borne out empirically. It is now found that Quantum entanglement/information ‘holds’ DNA (and proteins) together:

    Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral – February 2011

    etc.. etc..

    In fact, matter and energy are now both shown to ultimately reduce to ‘quantum information’. In fact an entire human can now, theoretically, be reduced to quantum information and teleported to another location in the universe:

    Quantum Teleportation Of A Human? – video

    Thus not only is Information not reducible to a 3-Dimensional energy-matter basis, as is presupposed in Darwinism, but in actuality energy and matter both ultimately reduce to a information basis as is presupposed in Christian Theism:

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.”
    Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:

    Verse and Music:

    John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    Redeemed – Big Daddy Weave

  6. 6
    Jehu says:

    Wait. External testicles are evidence against intelligent design? What?

  7. 7
    DavidD says:

    These people are incredible, they have taken purposed retardation & psuedo-science down to new lows. What I find sad is that most of these people are in the environmental movement and their take on “Intelligence would never have done it this way” is actually shooting their various causes in the foot because after all, their belief is that all sorts of flaws and mistakes exist all throughout Nature AND Nature is the bad designer. That’s why in my opinion, so many lousy forms of saving nature are actually flawed in themselves.

    It would be laughable to sit back and watch them fumble, if I actually didn’t care about the Natural World myself.

  8. 8
    Mung says:

    As a number of recent posts here at UD have emphasized, it really isn’t about the science.

    Now we just need another OP from Dr. Hunter.

    How Religion Drives Science and Why it Matters


  9. 9
    Collin says:


    Just to add to your #4… Today I was watching my 8-month old sleep and how perfectly formed her eyelashes are. I marveled that evolution could, supposedly, make her little eyelashes such an optimal shape and size to confer the slight advantage of having a little less dust in her eyes, but evolution is not powerful enough to cull things like homosexuality out of the population.

  10. 10
    melvinvines says:

    Mutations forming just the right healthy useful tissues in just the right amount, just the correct shape, just the correct location and shutting off at just the correct time, have never been demonstrated.

    Evolution: the Religion

  11. 11
    kevnick says:

    Sorry, a little off topic:

    What made as human? What “stimulated” evolution to make us who we are??? It turns out the acceleration of evolution of human brain was due to our “ancestor monkeys” coming up with the idea that cooked food not only tastes better but also can cause the “Cambrian explosion of neurons in our brain”. Any thoughts????? ????

  12. 12
    anthropic says:

    Jehu 6, you bring up a good point. External testes are vital for keeping the sperm from getting overheated. Cetaceans, which have internal testes, must have a special blood cooling system running through their top fin and back to the testes to keep from going sterile.

  13. 13
    ppolish says:

    Isn’t bad design merely an appearance of bad design? To a materialist at least?

    Or maybe bad design comes from the same “place” evil comes from.

  14. 14
    NeilBJ says:

    What I find interesting about the bad design argument is that something that appears badly designed is still designed.

    Some of you may remember the Yugo. It was badly and cheaply designed. Nevertheless, it was still designed.

  15. 15
    vjtorley says:

    Hi News,

    Well, you beat me to it. I’ve been working on a detailed reply to Greta Christina’s piece for a few days now, and it should be up on Uncommon Descent within the next 24 hours or so. Cheers.

  16. 16
    anthropic says:

    Obviously, cars are not designed. Windshields may become cracked when hit by a rock. Air filters eventually become clogged with dust and must be replaced. Oil eventually breaks down and must be replaced. Headlights illuminate only for a few hundred feet instead of miles.

    Tires gradually lose their tread and are subject to going flat when pierced by a nail. Worse, they lose some traction on snow, ice, or wet surfaces.

    Only about 25 percent of all the potential energy of gasoline actually moves the car. Burning the gasoline causes pollution. Eventually, all the gasoline is used up and it must be replaced.

    The engine eventually wears out from use. The body rusts (if metal) or breaks (if plastic) or fades (if exposed to the sun).

    The brakes are used up over time and must be replaced. Further, the brakes are not capable of stopping the car instantly, and they are less effective on wet or icy surfaces.

    Batteries eventually do not recharge and must be replaced. They tend to work less well in cold conditions, too.

    Cars are not perfectly quiet and not perfectly safe. Accidents may be costly as the body is typically not able to shrug off a collision at speeds above, say, 20mph.

    Windshield wipers aren’t of any use most of the time. Neither are cupholders. Nor air conditioning in the winter, heating in the summer. This proves that wipers, cupholders, air conditioners, and heaters are “junk” features.

    Big cars that can hold a lot and keep occupants safe in a crash tend to have low gas mileage. Small cars that have high gas mileage cannot hold so much and are more dangerous in a crash.

    There you have it, folks: Cars are not designed, no matter what those IDiots at Honda, Ford, or VW say. QED!

  17. 17
    Mung says:

    I agree. No well-designed automobile would permit itself to be stolen. Yet automobiles are stolen all the time. Therefore, automobiles are not designed.

  18. 18
    Mapou says:

    Materialism is not just a religion, it is the stupidest of all the religions. Why? Because it is the only religion whose adherents worship dirt as the creator of life. But why stop there? Why not worship dung beetles and intestinal worms while you’re at it?

    I tell you. Dirt worshippers, all of them. It’s truly pathetic. They should be relentlessly ridiculed.

  19. 19
    Dionisio says:

    anthropic @ 16

    cars are not designed

    of course, not! who said they were?

    you just don’t understand evolution 😉

  20. 20
    Dionisio says:

    Mapou @ 18

    I tell you. Dirt worshippers, all of them. It’s truly pathetic. They should be relentlessly ridiculed.

    Better let’s pray for them, compassionately.

  21. 21
    bpragmatic says:

    4. Information is not reducible to a material basis


    I am wondering, how do you know that, eventually, chemical relationships of material units, through natural processes cannot form into components that GIVE THE APPEARANCE of having been the result of so called immaterial purposeful information driven processes according to human description and definition.

  22. 22
    Mapou says:


    Better let’s pray for them, compassionately.

    I disagree. I say, may they be cursed and their ideas publicly discredited. The good of the many and all that.

  23. 23
    bornagain77 says:

    bpragmatic, given your handle you may appreciate this quote,,

    “All science is either physics or stamp collecting.”
    Ernest Rutherford – As quoted in Rutherford at Manchester (1962) by J. B. Birks

    bpragmatic, you ask,,

    I am wondering, how do you know that, eventually, chemical relationships of material units, through natural processes cannot form into components that GIVE THE APPEARANCE of having been the result of so called immaterial purposeful information driven processes according to human description and definition.

    In post 5, I’m not arguing only from some probabilistic point of view of classical information, i.e. ‘how unlikely is it that some configuration of material particles in life will produce a certain sequence of functional information?’, (as horrendous as those probabilities are against Darwinists). Instead, I’m also arguing from a ‘quantum information’ perspective, i.e. from the ‘structure of reality’ itself.

    Thus even though Darwinists, in regards to classical information, are infamous for arguing the fallacious logical deduction of ‘Darwinism is not proven absolutely impossible, therefore it must be true’ ,,,

    Darwinism Not Proved Absolutely Impossible Therefore Its True – Alvin Plantinga – video

    ,,,Even though Darwinists, when faced with the sheep improbabilities of material processes generating even a short sequence of functional classical information, abandon mathematical reasoning and argue the preceding irrational argument that Plantinga highlighted, I go even further in my analysis of the evidence. Past just probabilities to physics itself. i.e. To the empirical evidence itself, and I then ask, ‘is information reducible to a material basis or is material reducible to a information basis?’

    And we find in answer to that question that material reduces to an information basis, as is presupposed in Christian Theism (John 1:1), and that information does not reduce to material basis as is presupposed in atheistic materialism.

    In the empirical falsification of materialistic claims that information reduces to a material basis it is important to learn that ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement (A. Aspect, A. Zeilinger, etc..) can be used as a ‘quantum information channel’, such as in quantum computing),,,

    Quantum Entanglement and Information
    Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory.

    And by using this ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, ‘quantum information channel’ of entanglement, physicists have reduced material particles to quantum information. (of note: energy is completely reduced to quantum information, whereas matter is semi-completely reduced, with the caveat being that matter can be reduced to energy via e=mc2).

    Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups
    Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,,

    Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009
    Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,,
    “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second.

    Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves – April 2011
    Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost.

    How Teleportation Will Work –
    Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made.

    Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page
    Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,”

    In fact, as pointed out previously, an entire human can, theoretically, be reduced to quantum information and teleported to another location in the universe:

    Quantum Teleportation Of A Human? – video

    Will Human Teleportation Ever Be Possible?
    As experiments in relocating particles advance, will we be able to say, “Beam me up, Scotty” one day soon?
    By Corey S. Powell|Monday, June 16, 2014
    Excerpt: Note a fascinating common thread through all these possibilities. Whether you regard yourself as a pile of atoms, a DNA sequence, a series of sensory inputs or an elaborate computer file, in all of these interpretations you are nothing but a stack of data. According to the principle of unitarity, quantum information is never lost. Put them together, and those two statements lead to a staggering corollary: At the most fundamental level, the laws of physics say you are immortal.

  24. 24
    bornagain77 says:

    Thus not only is information not reducible to a energy-matter basis, as is presupposed in Darwinism, but in actuality both energy and matter ultimately reduce to a information basis as is presupposed in Christian Theism (John1:1).

    Moreover, this ‘spooky action at a distance’ non-local quantum information, though at first thought to be impossible to maintain in ‘hot and noisy’ cells, is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale, in every DNA and protein molecule:

    Quantum entanglement in hot systems – 2011
    Excerpt: The authors remark that this reverses the previous orthodoxy, which held that quantum effects could not exist in biological systems because of the amount of noise in these systems.,,, Environmental noise here drives a persistent and cyclic generation of new entanglement.,,, In summary, the authors say that they have demonstrated that entanglement can recur even in a hot noisy environment. In biological systems this can be related to changes in the conformation of macromolecules.

    Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010
    Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford.

    Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight – 2009
    Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn’t be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible.
    per daily galaxy

    DNA Can Discern Between Two Quantum States, Research Shows – June 2011
    Excerpt: — DNA — can discern between quantum states known as spin. – The researchers fabricated self-assembling, single layers of DNA attached to a gold substrate. They then exposed the DNA to mixed groups of electrons with both directions of spin. Indeed, the team’s results surpassed expectations: The biological molecules reacted strongly with the electrons carrying one of those spins, and hardly at all with the others. The longer the molecule, the more efficient it was at choosing electrons with the desired spin, while single strands and damaged bits of DNA did not exhibit this property.

    Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – short video

    Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature – Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes – University of Toronto – Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73
    Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state.

    Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011
    Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way.
    Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from.
    To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,,
    Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins.
    That’s a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo’s equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics.

    etc.. etc..

    That quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints (Bell Aspect, Leggett, Zeilinger, etc..), should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale is a direct empirical falsification of Darwinian claims, for how can the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) ’cause’ when the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ falsified material particles as its own causation in the first place? Appealing to the probability of various ‘random’ configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply!

    Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012
    Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”

    etc.. etc..

    In other words, to give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain!

    Improbability arguments of various ‘special’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles to supply in the first place!

    And although Naturalists have proposed various, far fetched, naturalistic scenarios to try to get around the Theistic implications of quantum non-locality, none of the ‘far fetched’ naturalistic solutions in themselves are compatible with the reductive materialism that undergirds neo-Darwinian thought.

    Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism By Bruce L Gordon, Ph.D
    Excerpt: The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical – and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism.

    Thus, as far as empirical science itself is concerned, Neo-Darwinism is falsified in its claim that information is ’emergent’ from a reductive materialistic basis.

    Of related note, encoded ‘classical’ digital information, such as what William Dembski and Robert Marks demonstrated the conservation of,

    Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II

  25. 25
    bornagain77 says:

    ,,i.e. classical ‘digital’ information, such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA,

    Every Bit Digital: DNA’s Programming Really Bugs Some ID Critics – Casey Luskin
    Excerpt: “There’s a very recognizable digital code of the kind that electrical engineers rediscovered in the 1950s that maps the codes for sequences of DNA onto expressions of proteins.”

    ,,this classical ‘digital’ information is found to be a subset of ‘non-local’ (i.e. beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:

    Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011
    Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect;
    In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.”

    ,,,And here is the evidence that quantum information is in fact ‘conserved’;,,,

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment.

    Quantum no-deleting theorem
    Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist.

    Besides providing direct empirical falsification of neo-Darwinian claims as to the generation of information, the implication of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’ quantum information in molecular biology on a massive scale is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious:

    Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description)

    Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video

    Verses and Music:

    John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    Acts 17:28
    For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

    Casting Crowns – The Word Is Alive – Live

  26. 26
    RexTugwell says:

    One purpose of the narrow birth canal is to sqeeze the amniotic fluid from the baby’s lungs. This must be done during birth otherwise breathing would be difficult if not impossible and puts the baby at risk for pneumonia. Think Greta. THINK!

  27. 27
    Dionisio says:

    Mapou @ 22

    I say, may they be cursed and their ideas publicly discredited. The good of the many and all that.

    I see your point.
    However, I also see their mistaken ideas already being slowly discredited, as more information is revealed to scientists-researchers these days and in the days to come, specially in biology. Noticed ‘the third way’ scientists breaking away from the apparent ‘consensus’?
    The truth deniers are cursed by default, for in the bottom, their position is rejecting their Creator as the ultimate reality.
    Perhaps many will stubbornly remain in their cursed state until their last breadth, but a few might be miraculously awakened from their blindness and see the true Light before it’s too late. I was in that cursed state until not long ago. By the grace of God I’m here now.
    The victorious can also be magnanimous. At the end of the day, we’re on the victorious side of History (His story). Let’s act as winners already, showing mercy to the mistaken losers. After all, our Maker has poured infinite grace on us. Time for us to pass it onto others too. Let’s be always ready to explain the reasons for our belief, when someone asks with genuine curiosity, not for the sake of arguing. By asking questions to the questioners sometimes in their responses they reveal their motives and we can tell the truth seekers from the foolish mockers. I usually don’t like to argue with fools, because it could be a waste of precious time.
    This is the age of grace. Eternal judgment for all the souls, the dead and the living, will come at the end of this age. Time is running out fast. As the Italians say, “il tempo vola, un anno non è un secolo” (gpuccio may correct me on this). We might not see it in our lifetime, but it will happen, because it’s a promise written in the sacred scriptures.
    But there’s no condemnation to those who are in Christ.
    If you believe this, then sing hallelujah and rejoice.
    I enjoy reading your comments, though most times opt to follow the discussions from the sidelines, because you guys seem to know much more than I do and the pace of the discussions get a little too fast for me to catch up.
    Have a good week.

  28. 28
    Dionisio says:

    Suggestion for the UD blog OP writers to consider: the above posts # 23, 24 and 25 could start a new OP thread.

  29. 29
    Dionisio says:

    Comments 23, 24 and 25 have much food for the thought.

  30. 30
    Dionisio says:

    RE: posts 23, 24 & 25
    Wait till we see the post on ‘procedures’ gpuccio is working on.
    I believe at the end of the day most serious biological discussions will center around the subject of gpuccio’s coming post. Biology is based on either functional specified information processing or stamp collecting.
    Hey, I could be wrong. Let’s wait and see. 🙂
    I don’t want to miss it, so have reserved first-row seats already 😉

  31. 31
    Dionisio says:


    Interesting observation about the birth canal. Thanks.

    BTW, you also wrote:

    Think Greta. THINK!

    Didn’t you notice one of the most popular social media tools of our time has a 124-character limit for the messages? To most users that’s excessively large. Not many would ever write anything that long!
    Thinking seriously is not a popular activity among us humans these days 🙁
    Sorry to disappoint you. Yes, I agree, that’s pathetic, but what can we do? c’est la vie mon ami

  32. 32
    bpragmatic says:

    BA 77
    Thank you for your responses. I will be working my way through them.

  33. 33
    bornagain77 says:

    bpragmatic, something that may make this a bit easier to understand is to reflect on the overall ‘structure of reality’.

    Theism has always held that there is ‘higher eternal dimension(s)’ above this temporal dimension.

    1 Kings 8:27
    “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

    2 Corinthians 12:2
    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows.

    2 Timothy 1:9
    ,,, grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

    Hebrews 7:3
    Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

    But is there evidence for higher dimensions above this temporal dimension?

    First, in answering this question, it is important to note that higher dimensions, ‘if’ they exist, would be invisible to our physical 3 Dimensional sight. The reason why ‘higher dimensions’ are invisible to our 3D vision is best illustrated by ‘Flatland’:

    Dr. Quantum in Flatland – 3D in a 2D world – video

    Perhaps some may think that we have no real scientific evidence to support the view that higher ‘invisible’ dimensions are above this 3 Dimensional world, but a person would be wrong in that presumption. Higher invisible dimensions are corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please note the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light:

    Approaching The Speed Of Light – Seeing Relativity – Optical Effects – video

    The preceding video was made by two Australian University physics professors. Here is the interactive website, which is related to the preceding video, with a link to their math at the bottom of the page:

    Seeing Relativity

    As well, as with the tunnel for Special Relativity to a higher dimension, we also have extreme ‘tunnel curvature’, within the 4-D spacetime of General Relativity, to an ‘event horizon’ at the surface of black holes;

    Space-Time of a Black hole

    Moreover, special relativity (and general relativity) both confirm that it is an ‘eternal dimension of time’ for this higher dimension. i.e. Time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    It is also interesting to point out that this ‘eternal’ framework for time at the speed of light is also a common feature that is mentioned in many Near Death Experience testimonies:

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony – video

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ –
    Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE testimony

    ‘Time dilation’, i.e. eternity, is confirmed by many lines of scientific evidence, but basically the simplest way to understand this ‘eternal framework’ for light, as well as Einstein’s enigmatic statement “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity”, is to realize that this higher dimensional, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ (i.e. from our perspective light ‘moves’) yet it is also shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.

    This ‘counter-intuitive’ paradox is only possible for light if the ‘temporal time’ for 3-dimensional mass is of a lower dimensional value of time than it is for light. Temporal time for mass simply must logically be a ‘lower dimensional value of time’ than it is for light in order for time dilation to even be possible for something traveling the speed of light.

    Yet, even though light is shown to have this higher dimensional ‘eternal’ attribute, for us to ‘hypothetically’ travel at the speed of light still will only get us to first base as far as trying to coherently explain the instantaneous actions of quantum entanglement, and/or quantum teleportation.

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video

    Science vs God: Bryan Enderle at TEDxUCDavis – video

    i.e. As the preceding videos slightly reveal, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be, because of time dilation, instantaneous travel for the person traveling at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for the ‘hypothetical’ observer at the speed of light, and yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of, this ‘timeless’ travel at the speed of light is still not completely instantaneous and transcendent of our temporal framework of time as quantum entanglement is now shown to be.

    Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012)
    Excerpt: ,,,The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,,
    “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,,

  34. 34
    bornagain77 says:

    i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference for time, despite ‘time not passing’ for light, is still not completely transcendent of our temporal time framework since light appears to take time to travel from our temporal perspective. Yet, in the quantum entanglement, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in our lower temporal framework, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in the ‘eternal’ speed of light framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous travel (if travel is a proper word) of quantum information/entanglement is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just our present temporal framework or the ‘eternal’ speed of light framework. Quantum information ‘travel’ is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us in this temporal framework. Thus ‘quantum information/entanglement’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we now have examined (many of which I have not specifically listed here); transcendent, eternal, and ‘infinite’, quantum information is indeed real and it resides in the primary reality (highest dimension) that can possibly exist for reality (as far as we can tell from our present empirical evidence).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane Kramarik – Child Prodigy – artist

    of supplemental notes,

    An Interview with David Berlinski – Jonathan Witt
    Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time ….
    Interviewer:… Come again(?) …
    Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects.

    it is also interesting to point out that a ‘tunnel’ to a higher dimension is also a common feature of Near Death Experiences:

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video

    “I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” –
    Vicki Noratuk’s NDE – (of note: although she was Blind since birth, she could see for the first time during her NDE, which is found to be a common for blind, and deaf, people during deep NDE’s)

    it is also interesting to note a nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Fairly recently, 3-Dimensional holographic information was discovered on the 2-Dimensional surface of the Shroud of Turin:

    Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Slide Show

    The Shroud of Turin The Holographic Experience

    Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Hologram – The Lamb – video

    Verse and Music:

    John 8:23
    But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    Evanescence – The Other Side (Lyric Video)

  35. 35
    anthropic says:

    Dionisio 27

    You remind me of an incident in California where a bunch of gay activists interrupted a church service. They entered the building dressed provocatively, chanted obscenities, and threw trash.

    Later, the African-American pastor was asked how he kept his cool during the situation. He replied, “Getting mad at them would be like getting mad at a blind man who stepped on your toe.”

  36. 36
    melvinvines says:

    Tires that puncture, circuit boards that blow, glass that breaks, pipes that leak…  ?

  37. 37
    Dionisio says:

    anthropic @ 35

    Good story! thank you for writing it!
    That’s exactly my point. I had not heard that story, but will refer to it from now on. Will make sure to remember giving you the due credits for telling me the anecdote. 🙂
    I believe the main two commandments form a cross: first, our vertical relationship with God. Second, our horizontal relationship with other human beings. We want to do both well. We are living in the age of grace. Our mission now is to tell others the good news about Christ. But that must be done lovingly. God will do the final judgment at the moment He decides, when this age of grace will end.
    But no one knows when that will occur. Only God knows the time. Until then we sing hallelujah, do our work and rejoice!

  38. 38
    youmustvotenato says:

    7 billion and counting. I think the human body was designed pretty well.

  39. 39
    Mr. Cheese says:

    Atheist’s approach to science:

    Because I don’t understand it, therefore it is useless/inefficient/junk – I hate this God I don’t believe in!!

    Christian’s approach to science:

    Because I know that I am “fearfully and wonderfully made”, therefore there must be a reason why it is made this way – all praise and glory to God!!

    Dionisio quotes RexTugwell:

    Think Greta. THINK!

    When she has declared that all she knows, is all there is to know, she has shut her mind. If she had bothered to look at the history of science and how often it has been wrong she may not have made such a comment. But inquiry requires an open mind.

    I will take Dionisio’s approach; may God break the chains that bind her mind so that she may see truth.

    As someone else on UD had a similar thought, I wonder how much science has suffered because atheists were allowed to usurp the positions of influence and power in the halls of science. How much time and energy has been spent overturning their ideas rather than pursuing truth.

  40. 40
    bornagain77 says:


    Scientists Report Finding Reliable Way to Teleport Data By JOHN MARKOFF – MAY 29, 2014
    Excerpt: They report that they have achieved perfectly accurate teleportation of quantum information over short distances. They are now seeking to repeat their experiment over the distance of more than a kilometer. If they are able to repeatedly show that entanglement works at this distance, it will be a definitive demonstration of the entanglement phenomenon and quantum mechanical theory.

  41. 41
    Barb says:

    From Salon: “Sinuses.”

    And these are a problem…why? Some problems associated with sinus congestion include smoking and mold. Neither of those are affected by ID theory.

    “Blind spots.”

    See the bit on the eye below.

    “External testicles.”


    How is this considered a design flaw? Yeah, if something strikes them, then it’s a problem (sorry, guys). But it doesn’t affect women, obviously.

    Whoever wrote this article seems to hate the human body in general. That’s his problem, not mine.

    “Backs and knees and feet shoddily warped into service for bipedal animals.”

    Ask runners if they feel that their feet are “shoddily warped.” Most of the aches and pains associated with the human body can be explained (by Christians) as the result of sin. And modern orthopedic surgery has found numerous ways to help alleviate these pains through partial or total joint replacements.

    “Human birth canals barely wide enough to let the baby’s skull pass”

    I birthed a 10 lb baby in 1993. This is also why medical science has invented C-sections. Not a problem for ID as I see it.

    “ — and human babies born essentially premature, because if they stayed in utero any longer they’d kill their mothers coming out (which they sometimes do anyway).”

    Got any maternal death statistics to back this claim up? No?

    “Wind pipes and food pipes in close proximity, leading to a great risk of choking to death when we eat.”

    This was discussed back in 2010. (

    “Impacted wisdom teeth, because our jaws are too small for all our teeth.”

    Wisdom teeth aren’t always impacted. I still have mine. Not a problem for ID.

    “Eyes wired backwards and upside-down.”

    Wait, wasn’t this answered before? I believe it was.

    Astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “The eye appears to have been designed; no designer of telescopes could have done better.” And the publication Popular Photography relates: “Human eyes see a far greater range of detail than film does. They see in three dimensions, at a tremendously wide angle, without distortion, in continuous motion . . .

    Comparing the camera to the human eye isn’t a fair analogy. The human eye is more like an incredibly advanced supercomputer with artificial intelligence, information-processing abilities, speeds, and modes of operation that are far beyond any man-made device, computer or camera.”
    The human eye contains some adaptive mechanisms including retinal neurons linked to the cones and rods. These neurons adapt “in seconds and can improve night vision by a factor of 10 or more,” says the American Optometric Association.

    “Neural adaptation is rather like having low-speed and high-speed film simultaneously available in your camera.”

    The retina of vertebrates is inverted, placing the photoreceptors at the back of the retina. To reach them, light must pass through several layers of cells. According to evolutionary biologist Kenneth Miller, “this arrangement scatters the light, making our vision less detailed than it might be.”

    So, the eyes are “backwards and upside down”. But is this really proof of bad design or no design? Not really.

    Further research reveals that the photoreceptors of the inverted retina are ideally placed next to the pigment epithelium—a cell layer that provides oxygen and nutrients vital to keen sight. “If the pigment epithelium tissue were placed in front of the retina, sight would be seriously compromised,” wrote biologist Jerry Bergman and ophthalmologist Joseph Calkins.

    The inverted retina is especially advantageous for vertebrates with small eyes. Says professor Ronald Kröger, of the University of Lund, Sweden: “Between the lens of the eye and the photoreceptors, there must be a certain distance to get a sharp image. Having this space filled with nerve cells means an important saving of space for the vertebrates.”

    Additionally, with the nerve cells of the retina tightly packed and close to the photoreceptors, analysis of visual information is fast and reliable. Again, not a problem for ID.

    “The vagus nerve, wandering all over hell and gone before it gets where it’s going.”

    Amusingly enough, the vagus nerve is appropriately named: The Latin word vagus means “wandering.”

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