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Functional information defined

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What is function? What is functional information? Can it be measured?

Let’s try to clarify those points a little.

Function is often a controversial concept. It is one of those things that everybody apparently understands, but nobody dares to define. So it happens that, as soon as you try to use that concept in some reasoning, your kind interlocutor immediately stops you at the beginning, with the following smart request: “Yes, but what is function? How can you define it?

So, I will try to define it.

A premise. As we are not debating philosophy, but empirical science, we need to remain adherent to what can be observed. So, in defining function, we must stick to what can be observed: objects and events, in a word facts.

That’s what I will do.

But as usual I will include, in my list of observables, conscious beings, and in particular humans. And all the observable processes which take place in their consciousness, including the subjective experiences of understanding and purpose. Those things cannot be defined other than as specific experiences which happen in a conscious being, and which we all understand because we observe them in ourselves.

That said, I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

The purpose of this distinction should be clear, but I will state it explicitly just the same: a function is a conception of a conscious being, it does not exist  in the material world outside of us, but it does exist in our subjective experience. Objective functionalities, instead, are properties of material objects. But we need a conscious observer to connect an objective functionality to a consciously defined function.

Let’s make an example.

I am a conscious observer. At the beach, I see various stones. In my consciousness, I represent the desire to use a stone as a chopping tool to obtain a specific result (to chop some kind of food). And I choose one particular stone which seems to be good for that.

So we have:

a) The function: chopping food as desired. This is a conscious representation in the observer, connecting a specific stone to the desired result. The function is not in the stone, but in the observer’s consciousness.

b) The functionality in the chosen stone: that stone can be used to obtain the desired result.

So, what makes that stone “good” to obtain the result? Its properties.

First of all, being a stone. Then, being in some range of dimensions and form and hardness. Not every stone will do. If it is too big, or too small, or with the wrong form, etc., it cannot be used for my purpose.

But many of them will be good.

So, let’s imagine that we have 10^6 stones on that beach, and that we try to use each of them to chop some definite food, and we classify each stone for a binary result: good – not good, defining objectively how much and how well the food must be chopped to give a “good” result. And we count the good stones.

I call the total number of stones: the Search space.

I call the total number of good stones: the Target space

I call –log2 of the ratio Target space/Search space:  Functionally Specified Information (FSI) for that function in the system of all the stones I can find in that beach. It is expressed in bits, because we take -log2 of the number.

So, for example, if 10^4 stones on the beach are good, the FSI for that function in that system is –log2 of 10^-2, that is  6,64386 bits.

What does that mean? It means that one stone out of 100 is good, in the sense we have defined, and if we choose randomly one stone in that beach we have a probability to find a good stone of 0.01 (2^-6,64386).

I hope that is clear.

So, the general definitions:

c) Specification. Given a well defined set of objects (the search space), we call “specification”, in relation to that set, any explicit objective rule that can divide the set in two non overlapping subsets:  the “specified” subset (target space) and the “non specified” subset.  IOWs, a specification is any well defined rule which generates a binary partition in a well defined set of objects.

d) Functional Specification. It is a special form of specification (in the sense defined above), where the rule that specifies is of the following type:  “The specified subset in this well defined set of objects includes all the objects in the set which can implement the following, well defined function…” .  IOWs, a functional specification is any well defined rule which generates a binary partition in a well defined set of objects using a function defined as in a) and verifying if the functionality, defined as in b), is present in each object of the set.

It should be clear that functional specification is a definite subset of specification. Other properties, different from function, can in principle be used  to specify. But for our purposes we will stick to functional specification, as defined here.

e) The ratio Target space/Search space  expresses the probability of getting an object from the search space by one random search attempt, in a system where each object has the same probability of being found by a random search (that is, a system with an uniform probability of finding those objects).

f) The Functionally Specified  Information  (FSI)  in bits is simply –log2 of that number. Please, note that I  imply  no specific  meaning of the word “information” here. We could call it any other way. What I mean is exactly what I have defined, and nothing more.

One last step. FSI is a continuous numerical value, different for each function and system.  But it is possible to categorize  the concept in order to have a binary variable (yes/no) for each function in a system.

So, we define a threshold (for some specific  system of objects). Let’s say 30 bits.  We compute different values of FSI for many different functions which can be conceived for the objects in that system. We say that those functions which have a value of FSI above the threshold we have chosen (for example, more than 30 bits) are complex. I will not discuss here how the threshold is chosen, because that is part of the application of these concepts to the design inference, which will be the object of another post.

g) Functionally Specified Complex Information is therefore a binary property defined for a function in a system by a threshold. A function, in a specific system, can be “complex” (having  FSI above the threshold). In that case, we say that the function implicates FSCI in that system, and if an object observed in that system implements that function we say that the object exhibits FSCI.

h) Finally, if the function for which we use our objects is linked to a digital sequence which can be read in the object, we simply speak of digital FSCI: dFSCI.

So, FSI is a subset of SI, and dFSI is a subset of FSI. Each of these can be expressed in categorical form (complex/non complex).

Some final notes:

1) In this post, I have said nothing about design. I will discuss in a future post how these concepts can be used for a design inference, and why dFSCI is the most useful concept to infer design for biological information.

2) As you can see, I have strictly avoided to discuss what information is or is not. I have used the word for a specific definition, with no general implications at all.

3) Different functionalities for different functions can be defined for the same object or set of objects. Each function will have different values of FSI. For example, a tablet computer can certainly be used as a paperweight. It can also be used to make complex computations. So, the same object has different functionalities. Obviously, the FSI will be very different for the two functions: very low for the paperweight function (any object in that range of dimensions and weight will do), and very high for the computational function (it’s not so easy to find a material object that can work as a computer).

4) Although I have used a conscious observer to define function, there is no subjectivity in the procedures. The conscious observer can define any possible function he likes. He is absolutely free. But he has to define objectively the function, and how to measure the functionality, so that everyone can objectively verify the measurement. So, there is no subjectivity in the measurements, but each measurement is referred to a specific function, objectively defined by a subject.

Comments
Piotr: Now, let's do another experiment. Look at this sequence:
Why is my verse so barren of new pride, So far from variation or quick change? Why with the time do I not glance aside To new-found methods, and to compounds strange? Why write I still all one, ever the same, And keep invention in a noted weed, That every word doth almost tell my name, Showing their birth, and where they did proceed? O! know sweet love I always write of you, And you and love are still my argument; So all my best is dressing old words new, Spending again what is already spent: For as the sun is daily new and old, So is my love still telling what is told.
Now, let's forget that we know it is one of Shakespeare's sonnets. Let's forget its beauty (it's my personal favourite :) ). Let's pretend this is the first time we read it. But we understand english. Nothing else is needed to understand the meaning. A remarkable meaning, I would add. So, this sequence is specified by meaning. In english. What is the total complexity of the sequence? The length is 576 characters (including spaces). Let's assume an alphabet of 30 characters (approximately, with spaces and at least commas, and periods and question marks). The search space is more than 2800 bits. What is the target space? I don't know. Durston's method for proteins cannot be applied to language. But, according to some simple reasoning I have applied to language some time ago, I am absolutely confident that, with a search space of 2800 bits, the functional complexity of a sequence in good english is certainly more than 500 bits. So, I will risk: I infer design for the sequence. So, this is a positive. And as we know independently from other sources, it is a true positive. This is the purpose of the procedure. To find true positives, without false positives. More in next post.gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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Piotr:
For example, a relatively simple nondeterministic algorithm can easily produce something that superficially imitates a real language: it has a plausible distribution of vowels and consonants, contains the right number of repetitions, and is ostensibly divided into words and sentences of variable but reasonable length. Unless you know which language it’s supposed to come from, how do you decide whether it is a meaningless string generated by a dumb machine or a text with a deep meaning in a human language? Look at this: Biniba boncianla den diani yali n den tieni tisiga ni. Bin den diani ke li ta yemma leni yabi n den la leni binuni hali micilima n den wani ti mama gi go twa tipo bimawanggikaba. Real or fake? And how do you know, honestly?
I don't know, honestly. That's why, honestly, I don't infer design. Was that sequence some language I don't know of? OK, my non inference of design is a false negative. Was it a fake, generated randomly? OK, my non inference is a true negative? How do I decide which it is? I don't decide. You can decide, because you know how that sequence originated. But I am not interested in knowing if my negatives are true or false, because i know that my procedure is not sensitive, and there will be a lot of false negatives anyway. Therefore, I will never use my procedure to exclude design in objects. That's not the purpose for which it was designed. More in next post.gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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Piotr at #115: First of all, let's leave Dembski (he is not here to defend his positions) and speak about what you and I are saying. That said, I have listed many things that we need to know to make a design inference. But you say:
You agree that in order to decide whether an object “has a specific function” or not we need to have a good understanding of the context in which it occurs. The examination of the object itself does not yield reliable conclusions.
No. I have never said that. The context is important for the design inference, not to define a function for the object. It should be clear from all that I have said here that an observer can define any function for the object he observes, and the context in which the object arose is not necessary for that. Probably, what you mean is that sometimes observing the object in its environment can help to recognize a possible function for it. That is true. If I study a protein in its cellular context, I can have indications of what it does. I could probably understand what it does even by a patient research in the lab, but direct experiment on a cellular environment can often be a more direct way. But you are equivocating, when you say that "to decide whether an object “has a specific function” or not we need to have a good understanding of the context in which it occurs". That is not true. In my simple example of the beach, I have no need to know anything of the context to understand that I can use certain stones to chop food. And even with proteins or protein genes, there are many ways to understand the function. If I find an english sonnet on a sheet of paper, the only thing I need to understand its meaning is that I understand english. As our understanding of the biochemical properties of proteins increases, we may be able to understand the functions of even a new protein with a top down approach. So, you are equivocating here. You say:
If I find a watch in the field, I can be sure it’s an artifact, but my certainty is based on my earlier experience with watches and other man-made devices. Even if I don’t know how this particular watch arose, I know how watches in general arise. But what about things nobody has ever seen being designed, and so their design has to be inferred?
Wrong again. Imagine I find an object on Mars, and I have no idea of how it works, and even its inner stricture is completely mysterious to me, but I can see that it is made of many parts connected in patterns. And I see that it has a display, and the display shows symbols that I don't understand, but which are compatible with numbers, and they change cyclically in time, in accord with Mars'astronomical rotation. Is it so difficult to hypothesize that what I have found is some kind of designed tool to measure time? Would that hypothesis be "based on my earlier experience with watches and other man-made devices"? No, it would be based on my understanding that it is useful to measure time for intelligent conscious beings. It's not the same thing. This is a fundamental point. Our "experiences" with man made artifacts do indeed tell us a lot: they, together with the subjective experiences that accompany them, inform us about how a conscious intelligent being uses his faculties creatively to design things. That experience is really basic to understand design, indeed even to define it. If we recognize a function, we recognize it. It just means that we realize that the object can be used to obtain some result. Certainly, we must understand how the object must be used. For a protein coding gene, we must be aware of the genetic code. If we don't know the protein, we have to synthesize it and experiment with it to understand what it can do. Maybe in many cases we will not understand the function. But in many others we will. That's all that is necessary. The cases where we recognize the function, and can measure its complexity, will be cases of true positives. The cases where we cannot recognize the function (which is indeed there) will be false negatives. The cases where we recognize no function because there is none will be true negatives. Anyway, there will be no false positive, if we apply correctly the procedure. More in next post.gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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piotr,
The problem is that “the explanatory filter” is quite helpless unless I inform you first where this pattern came from — how it arose and what function it really plays.
Can you justify for me the three aspects, (which I) highlighted, in your statement? How do your justifications square with the experience of the first person to chance upon a crop circle? Was he wrong to infer design even though no one informed him as to how it arose and he had no idea what its function was? StephenSteRusJon
May 7, 2014
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Piotr,
As I was saying, it’s an easy game if you know the triplet representation of amino acids in advance.
Your answer is rather disconnected to the issue I raise in #117. This thread is about clarifying the concept of functional information. The current sub-topic on the table is how a given sequence can bear an observable and reliable inference to design. In comment #115, your questions and challenge deal with the issues of functionality and sequence structure. My response presents the actual representations in question (which effectively subsumes both of your questions, and renders them moot).Upright BiPed
May 7, 2014
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Eric Anderson: A DNA sequence isn't particularly "functional" per se, except that is serves as a matrix (a kind of read-only memory) for producing other things, guaranteeing that the replication cycle is (nearly) faithful. A non-functional DNA sequence is hardly distinguishable from a functional one. A single point-mutation may disable a gene and turn it into junk, though the rest of the sequence looks exactly like it did before. DNA may yield a functional product -- an RNA or a protein that actually does something useful (in terms of reproductive success). It may also yield a useless product (e.g. an accidental transcript which isn't used for anything) or something harmful. How do you recognise that an arrangement is "special" without being told what results from it and what exactly the product is used for?
Given that we are capable of recognizing “special” arrangements, when we then discover such an arrangement in our environment, are we not justified in stopping to ask ourselves how it came about, in inquiring what is the most likely explanation for its existence?
If the explanation is "it was designed", you needn't inquire any further. Just sit back and contemplate the design. The alternative is to inquire how it really evolved. ;-)Piotr
May 7, 2014
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Eric at 111, in regards to Shannon's work, although the term Shannon 'information' has been a bit of a nuisance, there is something useful that Shannon's work tells us about codes. Namely that the first Genetic code had to be at least as complex as to current one since 'Shannon channel capacity' prohibits the changing of a code once it is in place:
“Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life Shannon Information - Channel Capacity - Perry Marshall - http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5457552/
And the genetic code, despite its inability to evolve once it is in place, is found to be optimal:
Biophysicist Hubert Yockey determined that natural selection would have to explore 1.40 x 10^70 different genetic codes to discover the optimal universal genetic code that is found in nature. The maximum amount of time available for it to originate is 6.3 x 10^15 seconds. Natural selection would have to evaluate roughly 10^55 codes per second to find the one that is optimal. Put simply, natural selection lacks the time necessary to find the optimal universal genetic code we find in nature. (Fazale Rana, -The Cell's Design - 2008 - page 177) “The genetic code’s error-minimization properties are far more dramatic than these (one in a million) results indicate. When the researchers calculated the error-minimization capacity of the one million randomly generated genetic codes, they discovered that the error-minimization values formed a distribution. Researchers estimate the existence of 10^18 possible genetic codes possessing the same type and degree of redundancy as the universal genetic code. All of these codes fall within the error-minimization distribution. This means of 10^18 codes few, if any have an error-minimization capacity that approaches the code found universally throughout nature.” Fazale Rana - From page 175; 'The Cell’s Design'
Even Dawkins agrees that it is impossible to change a code once it is in place
Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life - and Another Dawkins Whopper - March 2011 Excerpt:,,, But first, let's look at the reason Dawkins gives for why the code must be universal: "The reason is interesting. Any mutation in the genetic code itself (as opposed to mutations in the genes that it encodes) would have an instantly catastrophic effect, not just in one place but throughout the whole organism. If any word in the 64-word dictionary changed its meaning, so that it came to specify a different amino acid, just about every protein in the body would instantaneously change, probably in many places along its length. Unlike an ordinary mutation...this would spell disaster." (2009, p. 409-10) OK. Keep Dawkins' claim of universality in mind, along with his argument for why the code must be universal, and then go here (linked site listing 23 variants of the genetic code). Simple counting question: does "one or two" equal 23? That's the number of known variant genetic codes compiled by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. By any measure, Dawkins is off by an order of magnitude, times a factor of two. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/venter_vs_dawkins_on_the_tree_044681.html
Moreover, if that was not bad enough for the Darwinist, there are found to be overlapping codes:
"In the last ten years, at least 20 different natural information codes were discovered in life, each operating to arbitrary conventions (not determined by law or physicality). Examples include protein address codes [Ber08B], acetylation codes [Kni06], RNA codes [Fai07], metabolic codes [Bru07], cytoskeleton codes [Gim08], histone codes [Jen01], and alternative splicing codes [Bar10]. Donald E. Johnson – Programming of Life – pg.51 - 2010 Second, third, fourth… genetic codes - One spectacular case of code crowding - Edward N. Trifonov - video https://vimeo.com/81930637
In the preceding video, Trifonov elucidates codes that are, simultaneously, in the same sequence, coding for DNA curvature, Chromatin Code, Amphipathic helices, and NF kappaB. In fact, at the 58:00 minute mark he states,
"Reading only one message, one gets three more, practically GRATIS!".
As well, alternative splicing codes are found to be 'species specific', which, since Shannon channel capacity prevents the changing of a code once it is in place, means humans and chimps have had two different origins for their species specific alternative splicing code:
Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Deciphering the splicing code - May 2010 Excerpt: Here we describe the assembly of a ‘splicing code’, which uses combinations of hundreds of RNA features to predict tissue-dependent changes in alternative splicing for thousands of exons. The code determines new classes of splicing patterns, identifies distinct regulatory programs in different tissues, and identifies mutation-verified regulatory sequences.,,, http://www.ecs.umass.edu/~mettu/ece597m/lectures/hts-papers/barash-splicing-code.pdf Breakthrough: Second Genetic Code Revealed - May 2010 Excerpt: The paper is a triumph of information science that sounds reminiscent of the days of the World War II codebreakers. Their methods included algebra, geometry, probability theory, vector calculus, information theory, code optimization, and other advanced methods. One thing they had no need of was evolutionary theory,,, http://crev.info/content/breakthrough_second_genetic_code_revealed
bornagain77
May 7, 2014
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Piotr- your comment in 66 is moot. We observe DNA in living organisms. We observe it being replicated. We observe it being transcribed. We observe mRNA get processed, edited and spliced. We observe functionality, that is structures doing work, ie providing a function. As for DNA, well there isn't any evidence that necessity and chance can produce it from scratch (without existing DNA), no matter how short or non-functional the sequence is. Spontaneous generation of DNA appears to be a no go.Joe
May 7, 2014
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UB, @117 As I was saying, it's an easy game if you know the triplet representation of amino acids in advance. Still, for a given sequence (see #66) you can't decide if it's designed or not. There's no way you can resolve this question unless somebody tells you whether it is part of coding DNA (it could be many other things, from a regulatory sequence to random junk), how the reading frame should be adjusted for the proper identification of codons, and whether the resulting amino acid sequence could be a fragment of a kind of protein known to be functional is some way. Once you have that information, you can feed it into your "explanatory filter" and -- hurrah! -- it says DESIGNED. In my opinion, Gpuccio's target space is not definable even in principle, since it's impossible to predict all possible "biological functions".Piotr
May 7, 2014
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The question is not whether every sequence has the same statistical probability of arising through random means, though some would like to assert that this is a key issue. The question is: "Given a functional meaningful sequence, what is the most likely explanation for its origin?" So I ask yet again, the third time: Given that we are capable of recognizing “special” arrangements, when we then discover such an arrangement in our environment, are we not justified in stopping to ask ourselves how it came about, in inquiring what is the most likely explanation for its existence? ----- Piotr:
The problem is that “the explanatory filter” is quite helpless unless I inform you first where this pattern came from — how it arose and what function it really plays. Once you know that, you won’t get a false positive, but it’s no big deal if you know the answer in advance.
That is simply false. And is based on conflation of two different things. You use the explanatory filter every day, as does everyone else, whether they know it or not. And we do not need to know beforehand where the artifact came from. Yes, we need to recognize it as an artifact. In certain cases we might even need to know something basic about its function in order to decide the artifact is something worth studying. However, and this is key: The explanatory filter is not primarily geared toward identifying whether something is an artifact worth studying. It is not even in the business of determining function. The explanatory filter is geared toward inferring the most likely origin of the artifact. You quoted Dembski. He focuses, rightly, on the question of origin. Then you conflated that question with questions about whether we are dealing with an artifact in the first place or whether we know what function it plays. And so I ask, yet the fourth time :) . . . Given that we are capable of recognizing “special” arrangements, when we then discover such an arrangement in our environment, are we not justified in stopping to ask ourselves how it came about, in inquiring what is the most likely explanation for its existence?Eric Anderson
May 7, 2014
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Piotr:
Biniba boncianla den diani yali n den tieni tisiga ni. Bin den diani ke li ta yemma leni yabi n den la leni binuni hali micilima n den wani ti mama gi go twa tipo bimawanggikaba. Real or fake? And how do you know, honestly?
Context is important. Seeing that on a cave wall I would immediately infer some agency put it there and it was not the result of necessity and chance. The explanatory filter would flow very fast- almost suddenly. That is why context matters in the case pf 500 heads in a row. That is not a regular pattern, in that context. To me Piotr was saying that 500 heads in a row is regular because it is repetitive. Taken in context, highly repetitive patterns are not regular. And, Eric, a coin with heads on both sides would be evidence for design due to the fact the initial conditions were designed such that said outcome was gauranteed- see "Nature, Design and Science" by Del Ratzsch.Joe
May 7, 2014
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Piotr, Try this one: - - - - - - - - - - - GTC = add Valine next TCG = add Serine next CGT = add Arginine next CTG = add Leucine next GCT = add Alanine next TGC = add Cystein next - - - - - - - - - - - - Real or fake?Upright BiPed
May 7, 2014
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Designing a true working protein algorithmically is so difficult that we still cannot do that, not even with all our “intelligence”. And even if we could, the algorithm would be infinitely more complex than the final sequence.
'You sure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_design#Applications_and_examples_of_designed_proteinsPiotr
May 7, 2014
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Gpuccio @101 Here's Dembski's one-million-dollar question:
Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause?
[emphasis added] Some objects can. If I find a watch in the field, I can be sure it's an artifact, but my certainty is based on my earlier experience with watches and other man-made devices. Even if I don't know how this particular watch arose, I know how watches in general arise. But what about things nobody has ever seen being designed, and so their design has to be inferred? You agree that in order to decide whether an object "has a specific function" or not we need to have a good understanding of the context in which it occurs. The examination of the object itself does not yield reliable conclusions. For example, a relatively simple nondeterministic algorithm can easily produce something that superficially imitates a real language: it has a plausible distribution of vowels and consonants, contains the right number of repetitions, and is ostensibly divided into words and sentences of variable but reasonable length. Unless you know which language it's supposed to come from, how do you decide whether it is a meaningless string generated by a dumb machine or a text with a deep meaning in a human language? Look at this: Biniba boncianla den diani yali n den tieni tisiga ni. Bin den diani ke li ta yemma leni yabi n den la leni binuni hali micilima n den wani ti mama gi go twa tipo bimawanggikaba. Real or fake? And how do you know, honestly? The problem is that "the explanatory filter" is quite helpless unless I inform you first where this pattern came from -- how it arose and what function it really plays. Once you know that, you won't get a false positive, but it's no big deal if you know the answer in advance.Piotr
May 7, 2014
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Rather than 500 H in a row, it would be more helpful to think of examples like the coins being flipped to form a binary representation of the digits of pi or the first verse of a Shakespearean sonnet, or the first prime numbers in order, etc.
Be careful with π. If (as seems possible) it's a normal number, then every finite sequence of digits will occur at some place in its binary representation. Not once, but again and again, and again and again and again. In particular, it will contain every sonnet by Shakespeare encoded in UTF-8.Piotr
May 7, 2014
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Eric: Trying to reconcile Piotr and Joe? I really admire you! :)
Incidentally, this is part of the reason a highly repetitive pattern (like 500 H in a row), is a poor example for design detection. I wish Sal had never brought it up or got people thinking along those lines. It would be much less confusing to use an example that is not readily amenable to explanation from a law-like process. Rather than 500 H in a row, it would be more helpful to think of examples like the coins being flipped to form a binary representation of the digits of pi or the first verse of a Shakespearean sonnet, or the first prime numbers in order, etc.
I absolutely agree, even if Sal has all the reason to insist on the 500 heads: if correctly understood, that is a good example of specification by order, and after all even Dembski seems to be focused on that aspect, for some reason. I suspect that many prefer order because they want to avoid dealing with the concepts of meaning and function. But we are not in that group! :) Seriously, there is an important advantage in dealing with meaning and especially function for the specification. Sequences which code for function are usually "pseudorandom". They have the formal properties of a random sequence (to a certain point), but they are designed. Their functional value in no way can be generated algorithmically, because it implies understanding, complex links with different contexts, you name it. Designing a true working protein algorithmically is so difficult that we still cannot do that, not even with all our "intelligence". And even if we could, the algorithm would be infinitely more complex than the final sequence. But that's another story. Let's wait for Piotr's input, and then we'll see if it is worthwhile to deepen the discussion about this last concept (when to use Kolmogorov complexity instead of total complexity).
May the perpetrator who first unleashed that confounded term on the unsuspecting world be tormented by their conscience for eternity . . . or for as long as appropriate. :) You are truly a compassionate guy. :)
gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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UB: Very good contribution, thank you. Please, let us know when your website is ready! :)gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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gpuccio:
Shannon’s theory (which is not about information, but about the transmission of it) is a wonderful achievement, but it has certainly involuntarily added to the ambiguity.
Exactly. The whole world would be a better place :) if the Shannon measurement of information carrying capacity had never been called "Shannon information," but instead the "Shannon metric" or the"Shannon measurement." Much confusion, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth could have been avoided. May the perpetrator who first unleashed that confounded term on the unsuspecting world be tormented by their conscience for eternity . . . or for as long as appropriate. :)Eric Anderson
May 7, 2014
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SteRusJon:
Are you two talking past each other?
Yes. The disconnect is the following: Piotr is talking about coming across the pattern of 500 H in a row and what we might initially presume. Namely, that it was the result of a law-like process, such as an unfair coin. He is exactly right, that this would be the first and correct place to start. Joe is talking about the pattern of 500 H and what we might suspect, after we have eliminated the possibility of a law-like process; in other words, after having confirmed the coin is fair, has been fairly flipped, etc. Then, at that stage of the game, Joe is right that we would be suspicious and would not likely ascribe the event to chance. They are talking past each other because they are focusing on different time slices of the explanatory filter. ----- Incidentally, this is part of the reason a highly repetitive pattern (like 500 H in a row), is a poor example for design detection. I wish Sal had never brought it up or got people thinking along those lines. It would be much less confusing to use an example that is not readily amenable to explanation from a law-like process. Rather than 500 H in a row, it would be more helpful to think of examples like the coins being flipped to form a binary representation of the digits of pi or the first verse of a Shakespearean sonnet, or the first prime numbers in order, etc.Eric Anderson
May 7, 2014
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Hi GP, Great work as always. I too applaud your efforts to clarify information. May I throw something on the pile? This is from my upcoming website, discussing "representations":
Through the arrangment of a material representation, a contingent and incomplete abstraction of a thing is instantiated as "information", and in the presence of a capacity to decode that material representation, an effect is produced that has a relationship to that thing. In this process, information is the contingent and incomplete abstraction being represented, but in common conversation we refer to the material representation itself as the information. As the only observable manifestation that information, this common usage of the term is entirely natural.
Upright BiPed
May 7, 2014
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SteRusJon:
I really wish we could use a different word than “information” since it has so many facets to its meanings and uses. “Information” is ripe for confusion and, even, equivocation.
Exactly! That's why I try to avoid any incursion in the semantic problems caused by the word and the related concepts. They are interesting, but they are not really pertinent for the empirical reasoning that I want to pursue. However, just as an aside, I would say that the word originates from the greek "morfé" and the latin "informare", and is therefore strictly connected to the concept of form. Now, everything has form, but probably the most common use of the word is to mean that we give form to something, or transmit a form, and idea. In that sense, information is a message between conscious beings, and its transmission happens by giving a form to some material object (the vehicle of information). In that strict sense, all information is designed. Shannon's theory (which is not about information, but about the transmission of it) is a wonderful achievement, but it has certainly involuntarily added to the ambiguity. Shannon is interested essentially in the signal - noise relationship, but he does not deal with the nature of the signal (IOWs with what is meaning or function). ID does. And, by defining the relationship between specified / functional information and the search space, it has provided the best example of a design specific pattern, which can be used to infer design when it is not observed directly. That is a fundamental achievement, and the scientific world will have to acknowledge that simple fact, sooner or later.gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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gpuccio, Interesting discussion. I applaud your effort to frame the question of "functional information" with some sort of rigor. I really wish we could use a different word than "information" since it has so many facets to its meanings and uses. "Information" is ripe for confusion and, even, equivocation.SteRusJon
May 7, 2014
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Joe & Piotr, HHHHHHHHH.... is an "extremely regular pattern" but it is not a "regularly occurring pattern." Are you two talking past each other? StephenSteRusJon
May 7, 2014
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Piotr @90:
Humans see them as special because we are particularly good at detecting patterns and regularities in our anvironment. When we see a regularity we suspect (often with good reason, though with many false positives) that there’s something more than blind chance at work.
It is certainly debatable whether we are simply imposing meaning or whether it objectively exists. But we don't need to go there. Given that we are capable of recognizing "special" arrangements, when we then discover such an arrangement in our environment, are we not justified in stopping to ask ourselves how it came about, in inquiring what is the most likely explanation for its existence? ----- BTW, gpuccio has already addressed the false positives issue. If you mean "many false positives" by people's gut reactions in daily life, then perhaps yes. If you mean that the explanatory filter for intelligent design produces "many false positives" then that is simply not true. That is a large part of the reason for the explanatory filter, to eliminate false positives.Eric Anderson
May 7, 2014
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Piotr:
And I beg to differ: HHHHHHHHH… is not only regular but extremely regular.
Not with respect to flipping coins. If it were regukar then it would occur quite often. Yet it never does.Joe
May 7, 2014
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Gpuccio, @101 OK, we know where we stand. Sorry, but I again have other things to do. I'll be back in a few hours.Piotr
May 7, 2014
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Piotr at #100: OK, any specification which specifies a single sequence generates the same partition, and has the same probability. That's OK. And so?gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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Piotr: I completely agree with what you say in #99. You are absolutely right. You may have noticed that I always state that we have to refer to a system. In particular: a) The search space must be defined. b) The functional (or other) specification must be explicitly defined, and also how to measure it, and a threshold to assess it as present or absent. Remember, the specification must generate a binary partition in the search space. c) The physical system we are analyzing must be well specified. What are we speaking of? Flipping coins? Mutations in existing genomes? A good understanding of the system is fundamental to evaluate what algorithmic mechanisms may be included in its starting state. Foe example, if we are evaluating OOL, reproducing beings are not a part of the initial system. But if we are explaning evolution of species after OOL, we can consider reproduction as an already existing algorithm, and accept it as part of the starting condition of the system. d) The time span must be well defined. The system starts at time 0, and we analyze the events that can happen (or happen) in the system from time 0 to time t. That is important to evaluate the probabilistic resources of the system. e) The probabilistic resources of the system must be computed. They depend on the time span and the number of states tested in the system per unit of time. They represent the number of different states (number of attempts) that the system can reach in the time span, and for a random system with a uniform probability distribution of the states, they are important to establish the threshold of complexity (in order to reject the null hypothesis if a random origin of what we observe). All these components are fundamental parts of the reasoning. Some of them were not introduced in the OP because the purpose of the OP was limited to the definition of functional information, and it did not deal with the whole procedure of design inference.gpuccio
May 7, 2014
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Joe:
That isn’t what anyone else calls a “fully specified” sequence. Specify the sequence before hand and then flip a coin to match it. Tell us how long it takes you.
That's exactly what I mean. Any sequence specified beforehand (any exact prediction of the 500 throws) is equally unlikely. It doesn't matter in the least how "designed-looking" the sequence is. Lotto players practically never bet on sequences like (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6); they go to great pains to make the bet as random-looking as possible, e.g. (2, 9, 13, 20, 44, 46) in the false hope that a "non-designed" single sequence is more likely to win, whereas in reality the odds are exactly the same (1/13,983,816) for any 6 numbers out of 49. PS And I beg to differ: HHHHHHHHH... is not only regular but extremely regular.Piotr
May 7, 2014
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Gpuccio: Before I tackle your reply to #66, let me add a small comment to my post #90 (by way of introduction). If, in the case of a coin flipped 500 times, I would regard a result like HTHTHTHT... more puzzling than HHHHHHHH... it isn't because of any intrinsic property of those strings but because in this particular experimental situation it's easier to imagine a mechanism that would produce "Heads" only (e.g. a fake coin with two identical sides) than an alternating sequence. This is true of a physical coin flipped in the usual way. In a different setting (real-world context) a rhythmically alternating sequence could be trivially easy to explain (there's no shortage of rotating, orbiting or oscillating things in the Universe). It follows that the sequence in itself cannot be classified as "natural" or "artificial". You have to know its context.Piotr
May 7, 2014
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