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G.K. Chesterton on Why Materialists, Not Theists, Are The Dogmatists

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The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them. The open, obvious, democratic thing is to believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a miracle, just as you believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a murder. The plain, popular course is to trust the peasant’s word about the ghost exactly as far as you trust the peasant’s word about the landlord. Being a peasant he will probably have a great deal of healthy agnosticism about both.

Still you could fill the British Museum with evidence uttered by the peasant, and given in favour of the ghost. If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural. If you reject it, you can only mean one of two things. You reject the peasant’s story about the ghost either because the man is a peasant or because the story is a ghost story.

That is, you either deny the main principle of democracy, or you affirm the main principle of materialism — the abstract impossibility of miracle. You have a perfect right to do so; but in that case you are the dogmatist. It is we Christians who accept all actual evidence — it is you rationalists who refuse actual evidence being constrained to do so by your creed.

But I am not constrained by any creed in the matter, and looking impartially into certain miracles of mediaeval and modern times, I have come to the conclusion that they occurred. All argument against these plain facts is always argument in a circle. If I say, “Mediaeval documents attest certain miracles as much as they attest certain battles,” they answer, “But mediaevals were superstitious”; if I want to know in what they were superstitious, the only ultimate answer is that they believed in the miracles. If I say “a peasant saw a ghost,” I am told, “But peasants are so credulous.” If I ask, “Why credulous?” the only answer is — that they see ghosts.

Comments
Edward as to your claim that photosynthesis is NOT considered miraculous anymore, well I don't know what year you graduated school in, but science has advanced to the point of indicating that photosynthesis is, by all rights of reasoned thought, 'miraculous': In what I find to be a very fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’ quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis. Moreover, this is direct evidence that a non-local, beyond space-time mass-energy, cause must be responsible for ‘feeding’ all life on earth, since all higher life on earth is eventually completely dependent on this non-local, beyong space and time, ‘photosynthetic energy’ in which to live their lives on this earth: Non-Local Quantum Coherence In Photosynthesis - video with notes in description http://vimeo.com/30235178 What's quantum physics got to do with biology? - June 2012 Excerpt: certain bacteria can capture 95% of the light that hits them and turn it into useful energy. Solar panels also convert light from the Sun into energy—but they aren't nearly as good at it. The very best solar panels ever tested in a lab (i.e., not the ones actually available for sale and installation on your house) were able to convert about 34% of the light that hit them into electricity.,, Why can't we use the Sun's energy as effectively as bacteria can? The secret may be that the bacteria are using quantum physics to transmit energy. http://boingboing.net/2012/06/01/quantum-biology.html Unusual Quantum Effect Discovered in Earliest Stages of Photosynthesis - May 2012 Excerpt: The quantum effects observed in the course of the experiment hint that the natural light-harvesting processes involved in photosynthesis may be more efficient than previously indicated by classical biophysics, said chemist Gary Wiederrecht of Argonne's Center for Nanoscale Materials. "It leaves us wondering: how did Mother Nature create this incredibly elegant solution?" he said. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120524092932.htm Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Gregory S. Engel, Nature (12 April 2007) Photosynthetic complexes are exquisitely tuned to capture solar light efficiently, and then transmit the excitation energy to reaction centres, where long term energy storage is initiated.,,,, This wavelike characteristic of the energy transfer within the photosynthetic complex can explain its extreme efficiency, in that it allows the complexes to sample vast areas of phase space to find the most efficient path. ---- Conclusion? Obviously Photosynthesis is a brilliant piece of design by "Someone" who even knows how quantum mechanics works. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17429397 Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: "We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once -- a quantum superposition state, or coherence -- and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.",,, "It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans," says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm Life Masters Physics - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: Collini et al.2 report evidence suggesting that a process known as quantum coherence ‘wires’ together distant molecules in the light-harvesting apparatus of marine cryptophyte algae.,,,“Intriguingly, recent work has documented that light-absorbing molecules in some photosynthetic proteins capture and transfer energy according to quantum-mechanical probability laws instead of classical laws at temperatures up to 180 K,”. ,,, “This contrasts with the long-held view that long-range quantum coherence between molecules cannot be sustained in complex biological systems, even at low temperatures.” http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201002.htm#20100210abornagain77
December 29, 2012
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Edward you ask:
If supernaturalism is true based on common tales from common men and women, then what ISN’T true? Allah, Brahma, Buddha, Zeus, Marduk, New Agers, Wiccans, tossing salt over one’s shoulder, keeping clear of the paths of black cats, UFOs, urban myths, chain letter threats, alien abductions, werewolves, vampires, elves, et al.
Yet ironically:
Look Who's Irrational Now - 2008 Excerpt: "What Americans Really Believe," a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html
In fact when Darwinian evolution itself is scrutinized for pseudo-scientific properties, It ‘reeks’ of them:
Is evolution pseudoscience? Excerpt:,,, Thus, of the ten characteristics of pseudoscience listed in the Skeptic’s Dictionary, evolution meets nine. Few other pseudosciences — astrology, astral projection, alien abduction, crystal power, or whatever — would meet so many. http://creation.com/is-evolution-pseudoscience
Edward, as to your claim that God would not allow hell to exist, well that simply does not follow since God wanted 'free moral agents' who freely choose to love Him instead of wanting 'puppets' who really had no choice in loving Him. i.e. A tape recorder saying "I love you" certainly does not mean that the tape recorder truly loves you! Without true free will, and the 'real choice' of being eternally separated from God (i.e. hell), loving God with all your body, heart, mind, and soul, becomes merely empty rhetoric with no real purchase in reality. Moreover 'true free will', is found to be a foundational part of the way reality is constructed: In the following video, at the 37:00 minute mark, Anton Zeilinger, a leading researcher in quantum teleportation with many breakthroughs under his belt, humorously reflects on just how deeply determinism has been undermined by quantum mechanics by saying such a deep lack of determinism may provide some of us a loop hole when they meet God on judgment day.
Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw
Personally, I feel that such a deep undermining of determinism by quantum mechanics, far from providing a 'loop hole' on judgement day, actually restores free will to its rightful place in the grand scheme of things, thus making God's final judgments on men's souls all the more fully binding since man truly is a 'free moral agent' as Theism has always maintained. And to solidify this theistic claim for how reality is constructed, the following study came along a few months after I had seen Dr. Zeilinger’s video:
Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: Being correct 50% of the time when calling heads or tails on a coin toss won’t impress anyone. So when quantum theory predicts that an entangled particle will reach one of two detectors with just a 50% probability, many physicists have naturally sought better predictions. The predictive power of quantum theory is, in this case, equal to a random guess. Building on nearly a century of investigative work on this topic, a team of physicists has recently performed an experiment whose results show that, despite its imperfections, quantum theory still seems to be the optimal way to predict measurement outcomes., However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
So just as I had a slight suspicion of after watching Dr. Zeilinger’s video, it is found that a required assumption of ‘free will’ in quantum mechanics is what necessarily drives the completely random (non-deterministic) aspect of quantum mechanics. Moreover, it was shown in the paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will as a starting assumption in Quantum Mechanics!
Henry Stapp on the Conscious Choice and the Non-Local Quantum Entangled Effects - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJN01s1gOqA
of note:
What does the term "measurement" mean in quantum mechanics? "Measurement" or "observation" in a quantum mechanics context are really just other ways of saying that the observer is interacting with the quantum system and measuring the result in toto. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597846
Needless to say, finding ‘free will conscious observation’ to be ‘built into’ our best description of foundational reality, quantum mechanics, as a starting assumption, 'free will observation' which is indeed the driving aspect of randomness in quantum mechanics, is VERY antithetical to the entire materialistic philosophy which demands that a 'non-telological randomness' be the driving force of creativity in Darwinian evolution! Also of interest:
Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter – Random Number Generators biased by 'intention' – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007
I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiments, “Since you ultimately believe that the ‘god of random chance’ produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?” Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting:
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA Ravi Zacharias - How To Measure Your Choices - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Op_S5syhKI You must measure your choices by the measure of 1) eternity 2) morality 3) accountability 4) charity
bornagain77
December 29, 2012
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Speaking of tales of levitating saints . . . Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's St Christina the Astonishing http://www.ship-of-fools.com/features/columnists/loose_canons/027.htmlEdwardTBabinski
December 29, 2012
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BURNING QUESTIONS If supernaturalism is true, do witches exist? And ought they to be burned? If supernaturalism is true, why have Protestants (including B.B. Warfield) spent centuries debunking Catholic tales of miracles? Protestant have only recently come to claim even Catholic miracle tales in the fight against "atheism." If supernaturalism is true based on common tales from common men and women, then what ISN'T true? Allah, Brahma, Buddha, Zeus, Marduk, New Agers, Wiccans, tossing salt over one's shoulder, keeping clear of the paths of black cats, UFOs, urban myths, chain letter threats, alien abductions, werewolves, vampires, elves, et al. I'm agnostic, partly because, I've not been blessed with any experiences that appear to be miraculous in a strictly inexplicable sense. I've never seen a levitating object, never seen a ghost, nor heard God's voice, nor seen Jesus, etc. And even if materialism is not true, death might be certain -- as the early Hebrews and other ancient Near Easterners believed, everyone went to Sheol (except a few heroes, very few of them). NDEs feature some truly weird stuff. Not sure what to make of them. And not everyone whose heart stops seems to have them. Nor does one have to be in danger of dying to have one, so it's not necessarily a near "Death" experience. http://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2012/09/randal-rauser-and-ed-babinski-on.html I'm agnostic partly because I do not fear the threats of hell which appear to have gained prominence during the inter-testamental period, during a time when the Hebrews both had interaction with the Persian ideas of a hell, and when Hebrew hatred of being under the thumb of Greek and then Roman rulers made them believe that the world was no longer firmly under God's control, but that He'd leased out the world to dark forces. The rise in the idea of a hell seems appropriate in such a milieu. Eternal literal revenge of the most painful sort the ancient mind could imagine (unremitting fire on one's body). But it makes no sense to me to imagine an infinite Being with infinite powers of persuasion and demonstration at its disposal, knowing everything each individual would find most impressive and able to use such information to draw people closer, instead casting them into a lake of fire (metaphorical or not). I think such a Being instead would be able to crack everyone's code, because time and God would be the best teachers, and because if God is the only reality, illusion is of no eternal substance. I also don't wish an eternal toothache on anyone, and can't imagine a God who wishes far worse on vast numbers of His own children whom He brought into existence. Just doesn't make sense to me. And with all of the rival holy books and rival interpretations of each holy book and rival religions and denominations this God doesn't seem all that concerned to stop them and present the one true faith, as if there is only one. NATURE, THE GODS, AND WHAT HAPPENED AS WE LEARNED MORE ABOUT THE FORMER. . . Prior to the development of the telescope and microscope and experimental sciences such as chemistry, there were loads of supernatural theories as to how nature worked. Some thought that the body's organic chemicals required a miracle to form, but that was disproved when urea was formed via a chemical reaction using inorganic chemicals not found in living things. It was also believed that photosynthesis was a miracle, until we understood the structure and function of the chlorophyll molecule and others in plant cells, as well as understood photons and how that energy was released via a natural reaction. But prior to that time it was believed that a supernatural vitalism was what gave planets their energy from the sun. Ancient near easterners also used to believe that the earth was flat with deities living literally overhead and not light-years away, and that they placed the sun and moon and stars in the sky to mark religious festivals and remind us to honor them. That's what the Bible says, as well as the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation epic)--see the Hebrew-Babylonian comparison chart in my paper, "The Cosmology of the Bible," in The Christian Delusion. Ancient near Easterners also believed that all manner of happenings on earth that blessed or cursed humans were due to the whims of the gods, therefore trying to please such deities was the order of the day, with temples, prayers and sacrifices, to secure all the benefits the god(s) could provide--good harvests, safety from enemies and disease, etc. That was the accepted method back then of dealing with the vagaries of nature, honor the god(s). It was their way of attempting to manipulate nature. Do we believe that today? Or do we accept that weather simply happens and we base our safety round a weatherman's predictions of weather and wind patterns, and take action based on such predictions? And seek to make better crops ourselves, and avoid disease ourselves, based on plumbing, safety regulations, medical science? Do we believe in prayer as much as we believe and hope for the latest scientific advance? Perhaps our belief is at least equal, we're pragmatic and will try anything when we are in pain or need.EdwardTBabinski
December 29, 2012
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LarTanner writes: "Thanks. We keep hearing about documented, “witness accounts”; the accounts themselves, however, remain absent. Chesterton would agree, I think, that the proper stance toward Cupertino’s levitation is neutral, until we get closer to what these witness sources actually say. This can hardly be called dogmatism, can it?” Skepticism is, of course, not dogmatism. But that is not what Chesterton is talking about in the quote in the OP. He is talking about ruling these events out a priori. If all you are saying is that we should examine the evidence and let it take us where it will, we are in total agreement on the matter. I have no idea whether this fellow VJ mentions actually levitated. I am skeptical of the claim and would demand convincing evidence before I would believe it. That said, I am open to the possibility that convincing evidence could exist. The dogmatic materialist of which Chesterton speaks is not.Barry Arrington
December 28, 2012
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The paradigm of scientism, applied to empirical phenomena of such a highly anomalous, abstruse and, as in the case of Fatima, diffuse character, as miracles, is a version of 'painting by numbers', masquerading as the only appropriate methodology - and totally universal in its purview. Scientism cannot, by its very nature be other than self-limiting folly of the first magnitude. To the 'painting by numbers' aficionado, a superby-executed 'painting by numbers' is a master-piece, since its author is unable to appreciate the difference in the order of imaginative input required by an original painting. Nor is it, we can see clearly from some of the responses on here, merely a matter of paucity of imagination. No. It is a deliberate setting of their face against recourse to the legitimate, nay, essential, exercise of the imagination; above all, the willingness to imagine that, for example, ghosts might exist, despite the immemorial testimonies of countless credible witnesses down the millennia in all walks of life, or that the sun appeared to ten of thousands of witnesses to have 'danced in the sky'. Perhaps a better comparison than 'painting by numbers', and one that has actually been applied to scientism, is the so-called Law of the instrument, or Maslow's Hammer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument In short, the practitioners of scientism are simply not competent to have anything to with anything but the most routine scientific activity, plain drudgery. The analogy of the infant with the hammer hits the nail on the head.Axel
December 28, 2012
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Hi VJ, thanks for entering into the fray. In case you are interested, there is a movie about the life of St. Joseph of Cupertino, entitled, “The Reluctant Saint. It features the Oscar-winning actor, Maximilian Schell as the Saint and can be found on the internet. On the miracle of the sun, I am inclined to argue on behalf of its authenticity. It seems to me that the preponderance of the evidence justifies that conclusion: [a] The event was foretold three months in advance, to the day, to the hour, and to the minute. [b] A three-day-old rain stopped immediately, the clouds rolled back, a ball of flame raced toward the earth, and the environment was radically changed. Optical illusions do not cause water-soaked clothes and puddles in the ground to dry up instantaneously. [c] Almost all of the 70,000 people present, including reporters, skeptics, and believers observed the event. The numbers have to mean something. [d] Obviously, a “local” miracle will defy a scientific explanation. A sun that moves out of its place would affect he whole earth. That is what miracles do. They defy the laws of nature and do not, therefore, answer to them. (If the ground immediately became dry from the heat, why weren’t the people incinerated?) (e) I question the relevancy of Meessen’s experiment. Why would witnesses at the Fatima site have been looking into the sun on a rainy day? What would prompt them to be faced in that direction? They did not expect a dancing sun, only a miracle. More likely, they did not look at the sun at all until there was something extraordinary to see. The marvel they witnessed was not the EFFECT of sun gazing; it was the CAUSE of sun gazing. (f) Indeed, those who heard about the event after the fact--those who were prepared to consider the possibility of a multi-colored sun--would be the ones most likely to find one in the form of an optical illusion. This would apply equally to skeptics like Meessen, who was motivated to take a major health risk in order to disprove the miracle, and to zealous believers, who would later be tempted to replay the Fatima tape [1932, 1954 etc.), For that reason, I find the report of E. De Greef, who observed the false apparation(s) credible, while I question Meessen's report, which seems to equate them with what occurred at Fatima. [g] The Catholic Church is always reluctant to classify any event as a miracle. In this case, however, after reflecting on all the relevant points, the final judgment was positive. In summary, then, I find that there are more reasons to accept the testimony of the witnesses than to question it.StephenB
December 28, 2012
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Joe @25 good oneLarTanner
December 28, 2012
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Here is an account of a strange and scary, supernatural incident, which apparently ensued from a pact that the young St John Bosco had made earlier with a recently-deceased friend and fellow-seminarian, and was witnessed by the 20 other seminarians as they were preparing to turn in for the night in their dormitory: http://happycatholic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/st-john-boscos-ghost-story.html Evidently, God had decided to humour them in their innocence, while making it clear that necromancy, however obliquely pursued, is forbidden. On the other hand, it seems that God can and does authorise apparitions of loved-ones on occasions. My deceased brother appeared to my sister when she was suffering a great deal with dialysis and the renal problems necessitating it, and feeling very sick and weak. She woke up suddenly at about 3 in the morning, I believe, to see Barry, my brother, standing close by, looking perfectly solid and not like a ghost at all. She said she could have stretched out her hand and touched him. Apparently, he was simply looking at her and smiling gently, as if to encourage her. Then, after a while, he did slowly fade from her sight. By the way, she is extremely unimaginative, although she did have an NDE as a very young child; she has a very linear way of thinking, so that she often suffers needless stress, as a result of 'irresponsibly' thwarted expectations. I've found that whenever you ask people about such incidents, you have to drag it out of them. They're not very forthcoming. This was the case when I was in an artillery regiment in Germany, and we had an epidemic of ghostly incidents, oddly enough, mostly occurring to Catholics between Good Friday and Trinity Sunday, during which period Catholics are expected to go at least once to Confession. Anyway, the upshot of it was that most of the lads, including the Protestants, hung rosaries they'd asked me to get for them, above their beds. One strange phenomenon that really struck me, was that in most cases where the person had been terrified - often, not having believed in ghosts, I suppose wouldn't have helped in some cases - their faces were still really pale throughout the following day.Axel
December 28, 2012
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VJ Torley @62, Thanks. We keep hearing about documented, "witness accounts"; the accounts themselves, however, remain absent. Chesterton would agree, I think, that the proper stance toward Cupertino's levitation is neutral, until we get closer to what these witness sources actually say. This can hardly be called dogmatism, can it?LarTanner
December 28, 2012
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Hi Lar Tanner, Re documentation on the life of St. Joseph of Cupertino, here's someone whom you might like to contact: Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo, Italy. In the article I enclosed, he alludes to documentation for eyewitness accounts:
To doubt is understandable,' Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo tells me 'but it isn't justifiable. If we take a serious look at the saint's life from a historical point of view, then we see that we cannot question his ecstasies. There are numerous witness accounts. They began to be documented in 1628, and this continued until Joseph's death in 1663, i.e. for 35 years. In certain periods, the phenomenon is recorded to have taken place more than once a day. It has been calculated that Joseph's 'ecstatic flights' took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century.
P.S. I just came across this obituary. It looks like Fr. Berrettoni died last year. However, if you contact the Rectory of the Shrine, they'll be able to point you right: http://www.sulatesta.it/stampa/comunicati-stampa/12469-osimo-ricorda-padre-giulio-berettoni.htmlvjtorley
December 28, 2012
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So Alan, when faced with the unfathomed complexity of the simplest cell on earth, that drastically surpasses what was expected just a few decades ago, you simply ignore it as if it will go away? I believe that type of thinking is called denialism of reality (head in the sand). As to you holding that once you got that 'miracle of the cell' in play then it is all easy pickings for Darwinism, well my man, go for it, demonstrate the very next step to me of single cells evolving to multicellular creatures using all the purely Darwinian processes you want to use. There simply isn't any evidence in the fossil record indicating that single cells ever formed anything other than 'simple aggregates':
"We go from single cell protozoa. which would be ameoba and things like that. Then you get into some that are a little bit bigger, still single cell, and then you get aggregates, they're still individual cells that aggregate together. They don't seem to have much in the way of cooperation,,, but when you really talk about a functioning organism, that has more than just one type of cell, you are talking about a sponge and you can have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of cells. So we don't really have organisms that function with say two different types of cells, but there is only five total. We don't have anything like that." - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - quote taken from 31:00 minute mark of this following video Natural Limits to Biological Change 2/2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo3OKSGeFRQ Challenging Fossil of a Little Fish Excerpt: “I think this is a major mystery in paleontology,” said Chen. “Before the Cambrian, we should see a number of steps: differentiation of cells, differentiation of tissue, of dorsal and ventral, right and left. But we don’t have strong evidence for any of these.” Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: “No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena.” http://www.fredheeren.com/boston.htm
Nor does the experimental evidence suggest that such a transition from single cell aggregates to multicellular organisms is possible. To highlight the monumental problem that Darwinian processes face in going from a single cell to a multicellular creature,,,
"The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution")
And yet, Dr. Behe, on the important Table 7.1 on page 143 of Edge Of Evolution, finds that a typical cell might have some 10,000 protein-binding sites. Whereas a conservative estimate for protein-protein binding sites in a multicellular creature is,,,
Largest-Ever Map of Plant Protein Interactions - July 2011 Excerpt: The new map of 6,205 protein partnerings represents only about two percent of the full protein- protein "interactome" for Arabidopsis, since the screening test covered only a third of all Arabidopsis proteins, and wasn't sensitive enough to detect many weaker protein interactions. "There will be larger maps after this one," says Ecker. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110728144936.htm
So taking into account that they only covered 2%, of the full protein-protein "interactome", then that gives us a number, for different protein-protein interactions, of 310,000. Thus, from my very rough 'back of the envelope' calculations, we find that this is at least 30 times higher than Dr. Behe's estimate of 10,000 different protein-protein binding sites for a typical single cell (Page 143; Edge of Evolution; Behe). Therefore, at least at first glance from my rough calculations, it certainly appears to be a impossible step that evolution cannot make, by purely unguided processes, to go from a single cell to a multi-cellular creature. Further experimental work agrees with this conclusion:
More Darwinian Degradation - M. Behe - January 2012 Excerpt: Recently a paper appeared by Ratcliff et al. (2012) entitled “Experimental evolution of mulitcellularity” and received a fair amount of press attention, including a story in the New York Times.,,, It seems to me that Richard Lenski, who knows how to get the most publicity out of exceedingly modest laboratory results, has taught his student well. In fact, the results can be regarded as the loss of two pre-existing abilities: 1) the loss of the ability to separate from the mother cell during cell division; and 2) the loss of control of apoptosis. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2012/01/more-darwinian-degradation/
In fact Dr. Stephen Meyer's, who wrote "Signature In The Cell", next book is going to be on the sheer impossibility of neo-Darwinian processes to explain the origination of 'Body-Plan information' from single cells to multicellular organisms in the Cambrian Explosion: Here is a sneak peek at his forthcoming book:
Dr. Stephen Meyer: Why Are We Still Debating Darwin? pt. 2 - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-05-23T13_26_22-07_00
Related notes:
New Way to Look at Dawn of Life: Focus Shifts from 'Hardware' to 'Software' - Dec. 12, 2012 Excerpt: By addressing the causal role of information directly, many of the baffling qualities of life are explained." The authors expect that, by re-shaping the conceptual landscape in this fundamental way, not just the origin of life, but other major transitions will be explained, for example, the leap from single cells to multi-cellularity. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212205918.htm The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories - Stephen Meyer "Neo-Darwinism seeks to explain the origin of new information, form, and structure as a result of selection acting on randomly arising variation at a very low level within the biological hierarchy, mainly, within the genetic text. Yet the major morphological innovations depend on a specificity of arrangement at a much higher level of the organizational hierarchy, a level that DNA alone does not determine. Yet if DNA is not wholly responsible for body plan morphogenesis, then DNA sequences can mutate indefinitely, without regard to realistic probabilistic limits, and still not produce a new body plan. Thus, the mechanism of natural selection acting on random mutations in DNA cannot in principle generate novel body plans, including those that first arose in the Cambrian explosion." http://eyedesignbook.com/ch6/eyech6-append-d.html Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681
As to you ignoring me Alan, that's all fine by me.bornagain77
December 28, 2012
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Alan Fox:
I think Darwinian evolution is the only way to explain the current and former diversity of life on Earth.
Yet no one can even form a testable hypothesis nor provide any positive evidence for it. So why would Alan think that Darwinian evolution is the only way to explain anything? Oh, that's right- he's a dogmatist.
Also bear in mind that is all it explains and all it is intended to explain.
Except it only explains how things break and/ or deteriorate.
The origin of life on Earth? A complete mystery!
Then so is how the diversity of life arose as the two are directly linked.Joe
December 28, 2012
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Alan, excuse me, but are not you still a Darwinist even though we are now faced with the fact that the simplest cell on earth is shown to be far more functionally complex than was dreamt about even a few short decades ago?
Hi Phil, You have this backwards. I think Darwinian evolution is the only way to explain the current and former diversity of life on Earth. Also bear in mind that is all it explains and all it is intended to explain. The origin of life on Earth? A complete mystery! PS: I don't read your comments as a rule. It Caught my eye because of the first word. Not my business but you might find more people would engage with you if you tried to be more concise and on-topic.Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
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VJ Torley, As you know, we first need to know what contemporary accounts exist of Joseph of Cupertino. Since you brought in the flying saint, would you be so good as to list sources that witness to the levitation, from about 1645-1663? I admit to not looking very hard for the sources, as I imagine you have them readily at hand. Per Chesterton, we are to be as open to the levitation story as we are to reports of midnight rides on flying horses or to belief in the realm of Barbelo. So, we're all open. Nevertheless, you can agree that the actual sources might be of value here.LarTanner
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Hi StephenB and Alan Fox: In response to the above posts, I started searching for good links regarding the events at Fatima, and half-way through my search, I stumbled across something that caused me to change my mind about the solar miracle. I no longer think it's supernatural. At the end of my post, however, I've attached a link to a miracle which is absolutely indubitable: the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertimo, which were witnessed on literally thousands of occasions. I invite the skeptics to try and explain these away. Re the events at Fatima, the following online book is full of historical information: The True Story of Fatima by Fr. John de Marchi - especially chapters IX and X. Quotes below are taken from Fr. John de Marchi's The True Story of Fatima on the EWTN Website. Here are some eyewitness reports from people who saw the solar miracle at distances of 11 miles and 25 miles from Fatima. Bold emphases below are mine:
Actually, this hypothesis of mass hallucination suffers decisive defeat from an incontrovertible fact: the phenomenon was observed not only at Cova da Iria, but by people who were substantial distances away from there, and by no means in receptive spiritual moods. The Portuguese poet, Alfonso Lopes Vieira, observed the bright display - from a distance of nearly 25 miles.
On that day of October 13, 1917 (Senhor Vieira recalls), without remembering the predictions of the children, I was enchanted by a remarkable spectacle in the sky of a kind I had never seen before. I saw it from this veranda....
An interesting document has been left by the late Father Inacio Lourenco, a priest from Alburitel, a village about eleven miles from Fatima. We have ourselves taken the trouble to verify his recollections with many of his surviving parishioners, and especially with the school teacher, Dona Delfina Lopes, to whom he refers. Here is Father Lourenco's report:
I was only nine years old at this time, and I went to the local village school. At about midday we were surprised by the shouts and cries of some men and women who were passing in the street in front of the school. The teacher, a good, pious woman, though nervous and impressionable, was the first to run into the road, with the children after her. Outside, the people were shouting and weeping and pointing to the sun, ignoring the agitated questions of the schoolmistress. It was the great Miracle, which one could see quite distinctly from the top of the hill where my village was situated — the Miracle of the sun, accompanied by all its extraordinary phenomena. I feel incapable of describing what I saw and felt. I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt the eyes. Looking like a ball of snow revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zigzag, menacing the earth. Terrified, I ran and hid myself among the people, who were weeping and expecting the end of the world at any moment. Near us was an unbeliever who had spent the morning mocking at the simpletons who had gone off to Fatima just to see an ordinary girl. He now seemed to be paralysed, his eyes fixed on the sun. Afterwards he trembled from head to foot and lifting up his arms fell on his knees in the mud, crying out to our Lady. Meanwhile the people continued to cry out and to weep, asking God to pardon their sins. We all ran to the two chapels in the village, which were soon filled to overflowing. During those long moments of the solar prodigy, objects around us turned all the colours of the rainbow. We saw ourselves blue, yellow, red, etc. All these strange phenomena increased the fears of the people. After about ten minutes the sun, now dull and pallid, returned to its place. When the people realised that the danger was over, there was an explosion of joy, and everyone joined in thanksgiving and praise to our Lady.
The evidence mounts that for the devout, the pagan, and the coolly in-between, it must have been an exciting afternoon. Decide as you will whether the power of God or the faulty eyesight of 70,000 is responsible for this chapter of contemporary history. Believe only that we, who are reporting it here, lived for more than seven years within sight of the Cova da Iria, and have yet found no one to confound or deny with just reason, the events of this memorable day. Perhaps less dramatic than the visible acrobatics of a heavenly body ninety million miles removed from earth, was another phenomenon we have not yet emphasised. In that hectic noontime, while the great star hung in cloudless clarity, the people, who had been drenched and soggy with the pelting, unremitting rain, were suddenly and completely dry — their shoes and stockings, their skin and their clothes, as though the Lady of the Rosary had invoked the power of some new machine.
Here are some notes from a critical reflection on the Miracle of the Sun by Fr. Pio Scatizzi S. J.:
In world history, outside ordinary eclipses, nothing prodigious has been recorded or the sun, with the single exception of the biblical miracle of Joshua — the day's standstill of sun and moon. This fact and no other marks Fatima with a stupendous singularity quite apart from the rest of the story. The thousands of pilgrims, as we know, were caught in pouring rain, while gusts of wind swept the rocky hillsides. Suddenly, at midday, the heavens opened and the clouds drew back to the horizon, leaving the air pure and clear as a mirror... [T]he sun looked opaque, with a well-defined rim, and at the same time prove that there was no intervening mist. This opaqueness of the sun in a clear sky was but the beginning of events, for immediately there began to radiate from its center, thousands upon thousands of colored monchromatic lights in sectors, which, in the form of spirals, began to whirl around the center of the solar disc in such a manner that the sun itself seemed to turn on itself rather like a catherine wheel, while the colored rays spread out in a centrifugal movement covering the sky as far as the curtain of clouds, and turning everything various colors as if by magic. Such a spectacle of red, yellow, green and violet rays from the sun, spreading and sweeping over the sky, cannot be explained by any know laws, nor has such a thing been seen before. Could it have been a rainbow? Obviously not, for the simple reason that a rainbow is usually stationary. Further, the rainbow is drawn on a vertical plane opposite the sun and does not originate in the solar disc itself, but in the opposite line of vision. The eye rests on the summit of a cone on whose base rests the plane of the arch. The solar rays, which are parallel and horizontal, radiate form behind the observer, not from the front, and with a penetrating action reflect themselves once or twice in the falling drops of water, returning to the eye with the dispersion of the iris. In the case under review, on the contrary, the phenomenon is one of radiation over the whole circle of the horizon with uniform and continuous movement. Certainly there can occur other prismatic effects in the atmosphere, but they are seen, as is well known, at dawn or sunset. The air then operates as a prism, dispersing the light in various colored beams — those of the spectrum... The only comparable phenomenon is, perhaps, the aurora borealis. Professor Vercelli, in his book, quotes a description by Mr. Herdel of an exceptional aurora which was seen in the state of Iowa on the night of May 14, 1921. Taking this account as a base for comparison, I note a great divergence between the two events. In Fatima, stable, compact, above all homogeneous. The aurora was variable, disordered, unstable... It now remains to examine the third phase of the phenomenon, that is to say the movement of the sun, which appeared to detach itself from the sky and to fall on the earth in a zigzag path. It can be affirmed that such a phenomenon is outside and against all natural and astronomical laws. It appears that with this final occurrence, all doubts as to the natural origin of the events, all skepticism on our part, must be laid aside. At this point it would be well to refresh our motives for belief in such an unheard of incident. The number and nature of the witnesses exceed all requirements for verification. With twelve such, the law justifies the execution of a man. In this case, eyewitnesses numbered some 70,000. To resume our study: first, we have the rotation of the sun and the various colors; secondly, a movement outside the normal daily path of the sun in the heavens. In the first case there would be a normal admiration such as would be excited by a first view of an aurora borealis. There would be no cause for terror. Yet, suddenly, without the intervention of any new factor, the multitude is seized with terror as if menaced by a cataclysm. Everyone feels threatened by imminent catastrophe. There is a sensation that the sun is about to fall on the earth; that it is being torn from the cosmic laws of its eternal path. Hence the invocations, the prayers, the cries of affliction, as in a universal cataclysm. Observe well the second phase. It is not religious hysteria, nor a species of pentecostal fervor. It is sheer panic in the presence of Him who alone can dominate the forces of the universe. Contemporary accounts will show that it was not a case of suggestion, but that an objective vision was the cause of the panic which, when it had passed, left everyone perfectly calm, contented even, at having witnessed a prodigy which had been exactly foretold and anxiously awaited. How also could everyone have seen the danger pass at one and the same moment? Of the historical reality of this event there can be no doubt whatever... The above-mentioned solar phenomena were not noted in any observatory. Impossible that they should escape the notice of so many astronomers and indeed the other inhabitants of the hemisphere. It must then be admitted that there is no question of an astronomical or meteorological phenomenon as we have already said. We are thus confronted with an inescapable dilemma. Either all the observers in Fatima were collectively deceived and erred in their testimony, or we must suppose an extra-natural intervention.
I should mention that I visited Fatima in 1995. I bought a book while I was there (unfortunately I don't have it now) which had a collection of historical documents relating to the solar miracle. One thing I should point out is that the solar miracle on October 13 wasn't the first one to be witnessed at Fatima. There was another, smaller one in Fatima on August 13, even though the children were not present. To quote from Fr. de Marchi's account:
Just after the clap of thunder came a flash of lightning, and then we began to see a little cloud, very delicate, very white, which stopped for a few moments over the tree, and then rose in the air until it disappeared. As we looked around, we began to notice some strange things we had observed before and would see again in the months to follow. Our faces were reflecting all the colours of the rainbow—pink and red and blue and I don't know what. The trees suddenly seemed to be made not of leaves, but of flowers. The ground reflected these many colours, and so did the clothes we wore. The lanterns that someone had fixed to the arch above us looked as though they had turned to gold. Certainly our Lady had come, I knew, even though the children were not there.
Again, on September 13, many thousands of people witnessed supernatural phenomena related to the Sun. To quote again from Fr. de Marchi's account:
At midday there was complete silence. One only heard the murmur of prayers. Suddenly there were sounds of jubilation and voices praising the Blessed Virgin. Arms were raised pointing to something in the sky. "Look, don't you see?" "Yes, yes, I do... !" Much satisfaction on the part of those who do. There had not been a cloud in the deep blue of the sky and I, too, raised my eyes and scrutinised it in case I should be able to distinguish what the others, more fortunate than I, had already claimed to have seen. With great astonishment I saw, clearly and distinctly, a luminous globe, which moved from the east to the west, gliding slowly and majestically through space. My friend also looked, and had the good fortune to enjoy the same unexpected and delightful vision. Suddenly the globe, with its extraordinary light, disappeared. Near us was a little girl dressed like Lucia, and more or less the same age. She continued to cry out happily: "I still see it! I still see it! Now it's coming down... !" After a few minutes, about the duration of the apparitions, the child began to exclaim again, pointing to the sky: "Now it's going up again!" — and she followed the globe with her eyes until it disappeared in the direction of the sun. "What do you think of that globe?" I asked my companion, who seemed enthusiastic at what he had seen. "That it was our Lady," he replied without hesitation. It was my undoubted conviction also. The children had contemplated the very Mother of God, while to us it had been given to see the means of transport—if one may so express it — which brought her from heaven to the inhospitable waste of the Serra da Aire. I must emphasise that all those around us appeared to have seen the same thing, for one heard manifestations of joy and praises of our Lady. But some saw nothing. Near us was a simple devout creature, crying bitterly because she had seen nothing. We felt remarkably happy. My companion went from group to group in the Cova and afterwards on the road, gathering information. Those he questioned - were of all sorts and kinds, and of different social standing, but one and all affirmed the reality of the phenomena which we ourselves had witnessed. With immense satisfaction we set off for home after this pilgrimage to Fatima, firmly resolved to return on the 13th of October for further confirmation of these facts. The impressions of Monsignor Quaresma on this day were confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses who beheld the identical phenomena This is not carelessly stated. It is legitimately known. Other manifestations, strange and moving, were observed by many but not by all. The sudden freshening of the atmosphere that had attended prior apparitions, the midday sun paling strangely until stars were visible in the daytime sky; a falling of flower petals that somehow disintegrated and were gone before they could reach the earth.
Another interesting fact is that not everyone at Fatima witnessed the miracle on October 13. Fr. C. C. Martindale, S. J., in his pamphlet on Fatima (which I cannot locate online) mentions two Catholic ladies who were there who saw nothing, while a third lady, who was between them, saw the whole thing. On a more critical note, the following discussion in Wikipedia may also be of interest: Miracle of the Sun . After reading the Wikipedia article, I have been reluctantly convinced that the events at Fatima on October 13, 1917, were most likely natural. My change of mind was prompted by the following 2003 essay (referenced in the Wikipedia article) by Professor Auguste Meessen, of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Louvain, Belgium, entitled, Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun (International Forum in Porto, “Science, Religion and Conscience", October 23-25, 2003, Actas do Forum International, Centro Transdisciplinar de Estudos da Consciencia, 2005, Consciencias, 2, Editores: J. Fernandes, N.L. Santos, ISSN: 1645-6564, p. 199-222), is also well worth reading. Here's the abstract and conclusion:
Abstract Apparitions are subjective experiences, but can be accompanied by “miracles of the sun”, observed and described by numerous witnesses. An extensive study of these phenomena reveals a set of characteristic features, suggesting the existence of an underlying mechanism. It is shown that the hypothesis of an extraterrestrial intervention is not sufficient to explain all observed facts, while this is possible in terms of natural, but very peculiar physiological processes. The proof results from personal experiments and reasoning, based on relevant scientific literature. Apparitions are more complex experiences, but the content of the “messages” raises theological problems. Moreover, it is necessary to relate these “mystical experiences” to new insights in psychological processes that involve altered states of consciousness. This subject calls urgently for continued, rigorous and responsible research. Conclusion The general conclusion is that apparitions and miracles of the sun cannot be taken at face value. There are natural mechanisms that can explain them, but they are so unusual that we were not aware of them. Miracles of the sun result from neurophysiological processes in our eyes and visual cortex, while apparitions involve more complex processes in our mind’s brain. The seers are honest, but unconsciously, they put themselves in an altered state of consciousness. This is possible, since our brain allows for “dissociation” and for switching” from one type of behaviour to another. A new conception of apparitions and miracles of the sun seems thus to be emerging, but much more research is needed in this domain, especially because of its socio-cultural importance.
What accounts for Meessen's skepticism? Consider the following facts he adduces relating to solar miracles that occurred in relation to other visions not approved by the Church:
So-called “miracles of the sun” were observed, for instance, in Tilly-sur-Seuilles (France, 1901), Fatima (Portugal, 1917), Onkerzeele (Belgium, 1933), Bonate (Italy, 1944), Espis (France, 1946), Acquaviva Platani (Italy, 1950), Heroldsbach (Germany, 1949), Fehrbach (Germany, 1950), Kerezinen (France, 1953), San Damiano (Italy, 1965), Tre Fontane (Italy, 1982) and Kibeho (Rwanda, 1983). They have been described by many witnesses and from their reports we can extract the following characteristic features, appearing successively. * A grey disc seems to be placed between the sun and the observer, but a brilliant rim of the solar disc is still apparent. This is comparable to an “annular eclipse”. * Beautiful colours appear after a few minutes on the whole surface of the solar disc, at its rim and in the surrounding sky. These colours are different, however, and they change in the course of time. They are vivid and can be blue, red, yellow, green, pink, violet, etc. A large part of the surrounding sky is coloured, but this region is irregular and changing. This can give the impression that coloured lights are ejected from the sun. When the observers are looking away from the sun, they see that the landscape and surrounding persons are also coloured in a changing way. * The sun begins to “dance”. First, the solar disk rotates about its centre at a uniform and rather high velocity (about 1 turn/s). Then the rotation stops and starts again, but now it is opposite to the initial one. Suddenly, the solar disk seems to detach itself from the sky. It comes rapidly closer, with increasing size and brilliancy. This causes great panic, since people think that the end of the world has come, but the sun retreats. It moves backwards until it has again its initial appearance. These forward and backward motions can be combined with rotations and sometimes with lateral oscillations. All these motions are, of course, unexpected and very impressive. * Finally, after 10 or 15 minutes, the sun is “normal” again: its luminosity is too strong to continue gazing at it. But after about another quarter of an hour, the prodigy can be repeated in the same way. The spectators are astonished that their eyes did not hurt, although they were looking straight into the sun during a very long time. * Most observers had noted slight local changes in the luminosity of the solar disc, as if there were some kind of images, but they were unable to recognize what they could represent. Some persons were more lucky, gifted or privileged, however. In Heroldsbach, the “seers” reported that they had successive visions of the Virgin Mary, without and with the Jesus-Child, the Holy Family, the Trinity and some symbols, like a cross and the letters IHS. Some other persons reported also that they saw the Virgin Mary and religious symbols. In Fatima, the "seers" had similar visions at that moment. * Coloured spheres, drifting slowly from the sun towards the earth, were observed and mentioned at several places. This happened not only during miracles of the sun, but also for some time after them. When these spheres arrived at the ground, they never left there any material trace.
Meessen then goes on to describe experiments he conducted on himself:
At this stage, I engaged in a systematic study of after-images (produced at the retinal level) and after-effects (resulting from the neural processing in our brain). Experimenting myself with a large and powerful white electric light bulb, I saw vivid colours and noted their temporal changes. I scanned the medical and psychological literature, to get information on peculiar visual effects and I focalised my attention on the biochemical, physiological and neurological processes that are involved. In November 2002, I looked directly into the sun, at about 4 p.m. The sun was relatively low above the horizon and its light intensity was attenuated, although the sky was clear. I was able to look right into the sun and was amazed to see that the sun was immediately converted into a grey disc, surrounded by a brilliant ring. The grey disc was practically uniform, while the surrounding ring was somewhat irregular and flamboyant, but did not extend beyond the solar disk. It coincided with its rim. I stopped the experiment, since I wanted to be prudent, but I had experienced myself the initial phase of a typical “miracle of the sun” and I could explain it... In a second experiment, realized at 3 p.m. in December 2002, I looked straight at the sun during a much longer time. After some minutes, I saw impressive colours, up to 2 or 3 times the diameter of the sun. They changed, but were mainly pink, deep blue, red and green. Further away, the sky became progressively more luminous. I stopped there, since I understood that these colours resulted from the fact that the red, green and blue sensitive pigments are bleached and regenerated at different rates. Moreover, it is well known that receptor fields combine the responses of cones, to form blue-yellow, red-green and white-black opponent pairs. These neural responses are analysed in the visual cortex, where information about form, colour and motion are extracted at separate places. The brain is functioning like a parallel computer, but it can instantaneously keep track of everything that belongs together by means of synchronous oscillations. Previously, I had already established a brain-wave equation that accounts for these oscillations. In spite of separate analyses, performed in specialized areas, the necessary perceptual unity can thus always be preserved. These highly efficient methods imply, however, that illusions are possible. Some of them are automatic and intrinsic to the hard-wired part of the brain, while other illusions can result from dynamic processes... What about the motions of the sun? I didn’t see them, because I didn’t look at the sun for a sufficiently long time or my brain knew already too much. Once, after I had been looking at a very long passing train, I had (for about 30 seconds) the illusion of an opposite motion. Joseph Plateau discovered that when we look at the centre of a spiral that is rotating at some given velocity about this point, and when we stop this rotation, we see a reversed rotation. It lasts for several minutes, although in reality, there is no motion at all. This is a good example of motional after-effects. The “dance of the sun” is initiated, however, by a spontaneous generation of apparent motion. This means that some groups of neurons of the visual cortex have chosen this possibility. It is reversed, by opposing excitatory and inhibitory activities. The same concept applies also to oscillations and to forward and backward motions. A very interesting study was recently devoted to this “zoom and loom effect”. It tends to appear when the brain is confronted with the two-dimensional retinal image of an object that is situated at some unknown distance. The brain will then consider the possibility that it could come closer, by performing an illusory mental zoom, where the apparent size of the object is progressively increased. This results from the fact that evolution preserved the tendency to take into account the possibility of a dangerous approach: a rapid evasive action could be beneficial for survival. When the “idea” of an approach does not lead to any real danger, the perceived object returns to its normal place. In Heroldsbach, people were so afraid by the “descending sun”, that they fled into the adjacent fields and threw themselves on the wet and dirty ground. Subjective perceptions seemed to be conformed by those of other persons. After about a quarter of an hour, the sun takes on again its “normal” appearance. It becomes too brilliant for continued gazing. This means actually that bleached pigments have been regenerated and that secondary biochemical processes are not effective any more for some time. Dr. J.B. Walz, a university professor of theology, collected over 70 eye-witness reports of the “miracle of the sun” that occurred in Heroldsbach on December 8, 1949. These documents disclose some individual differences in perception, including the fact that one person saw the sun approaching and receding three times, while most witnesses saw this only two times! The “coloured spheres” that were usually perceived after the breathtaking “dance of the sun” are simply after-images, but they were not recognized as such, since the context of these observations suggested a prodigious interpretation. In Tilly-sur-Seules and Kerezinen, the coloured spheres were mentioned quite often, since the witnesses did talk to one another... The final result of this investigation is that “miracles of the sun” can be interpreted without assuming an intervention of supernatural powers or extraterrestrial intelligences. Some people will claim that they knew this already, but they couldn’t prove it. Actually there is no reason at all to be arrogant with respect to those who believed in a miracle or assumed the presence of a UFO. We were confronted, indeed, with a highly remarkable illusion, displaying many sophisticated and completely unexpected features.
I should add that the solar miracle at Heroldsbach was also witnessed by people who were some kilometres away, just like the solar miracle at Fatima. What happened at Heroldsbach? Meessen narrates the story:
In Heroldsbach, on October 9, 1949, four girls, 10 - 11 years old, had collected coloured leafs [sic] and were playing when they heard the clock of their village church. It was 5 p.m. Spontaneously they started to pray and at that moment, they saw in the sky, above a birchwood, an indistinct white silhouette. One of the children compared it to a nun, dressed in white, but then it seemed more plausible to say that it was the Mother of God. That’s the usual German expression for the Virgin Mary. During the following days, the “apparition” became more and more distinct. On October 14, one of the children asked: “Dear Lady, who are you?” She answered: "I am the Mother of God". A few days later, the children asked the luminous Lady, carrying now a rosary, if she had a message for humanity. She simply said: “pray!”. Heroldsbach is a small village, near Nurenberg and the Second World War was still very present in the mind of everyone. On October 31, 1949, one of the children questioned the Lady: “will there be war again?” She replied: “when you pray, there will be none.” Then, she did not appear anymore until December 8, 1949. That was the day where the “great miracle of the sun” occurred in the presence of 8.000 to 10.000 persons. It started at 3 o’clock, during a procession, but the Virgin Mary appeared already to the children at 14:30. For the first time, she was bearing a golden crown on her head. It was “brilliant like the sun” and on her left arm, she carried the Jesus-Child. After that event, the apparitions became more and more explicit, with constant, heavy insistence on prayer and penitence! The group of “seers” was now constituted of 6 girls, all about 11 years old. On May 15, 1950, Our Lady announced that “the Russians will come and there will come a great famine!”. Over the birch-wood, where the children had initially perceived the apparition, they saw now an agitated war-scene, with solders that were shooting at one another. The soldiers fell on the ground and remained there, bleeding and suffering. That terrifying vision lasted for about 10 minutes, but during all this time the Virgin Mary covered the village of Heroldsbach with her protective veil. The following day, the children saw again a fierce battle in the sky, but now, there were brown and black soldiers. The brown ones had Mongolian eyes. They were winning and went into a village. They entered the houses, dragged their habitants on the street and pushed them towards a place, where they were savagely killed. The children recognized the village. It was their own. These visions were interpreted (by N. Langhojer) in the following way: “when the request of the heavenly mother is fulfilled, the first vision of the Russians will be realized. The homeland will be saved, but when humanity does not listen, the second possibility occurs. Destruction will take its horrible course.” The next day, the Virgin Mary appeared with the Jesus-Child, who said himself: “Dear children, if you don’t pray with diligence, the Russians will come and slay you!” We have to recall that in 1949, the Russians had performed their first experimental atomic explosion and that in 1950, the US announced the construction of a hydrogen bomb. (Bold emphasis mine - VJT.)
Meessen also compares the apparition at Fatima to anotehr false apparition at Beauraing, Belgium, in 1932:
When I studied the official documents, that had been used for the evaluation of the apparitions of Beauraing, in Belgium, I was somewhat disappointed by the lack of precision and clarity in the description of the basic events. Then I found the book of E. De Greeff, professor of criminology at the Catholic University of Louvain. He was present during some of these apparitions. Moreover, he had carefully studied the testimonies of the seers and other witnesses. His professional competence and his integrity are undeniable, but his conclusions were not in favour of an official recognition. In the evening of November 29, 1932, when five children were near a statue of Our Lady of Lourdes, they saw a strange light, and the idea came up that it could be an apparition of the Virgin Mary. De Greeff shows that the children were quite emotional and that the light could actually come from a car. During the following evenings, the children saw similar lights at about the same place and their initial concept was strengthened. The four girls and one boy, between 9 and 14 years old, were interrogated, but this happened at first in a very uncritical way. When the methods changed, partially because of De Greeff, it appeared that the seers did not have identical visions and that they did not “hear” the same words and sentences. There were even some contradictions. Every evening, before the apparition started, the five children were standing in a row and praying the rosary with the surrounding assembly. Suddenly, they fell on their knees, in perfect synchrony, and during the whole apparition, they prayed with a shrill voice and at an unusually rapid rate. This behaviour astonished some observers, since it is atypical of apparitions, but most observers considered that it pleaded in favour of an authentic and simultaneous mystical experience. The sudden and synchronous kneeling down could be explained, however, since they were waiting in tense expectation and could thus react as soon as one of them started to move, while the end of the apparition was easily synchronized by the modified acoustic signals. Even when the “seers” were immediately separated from one another after the apparitions, to be subjected to separate interrogations, their declarations could still be relatively coherent, since they had ample opportunity to communicate during the day and to prepare - in good faith - the questions they would ask the luminous Lady. Then I found the book of Dr. A. Ladon, a Belgian neurologist, who collected data on the series of apparitions that developed in several parts of Belgium, after the events of Beauraing. In 1933, there were 47 persons who claimed that they saw the Virgin Mary. There were even two groups of over [a] hundred persons who had apparently common visions. Ladon’s analysis led him to the conclusion that this was a remarkable phenomenon of contagion: “a mental epidemic”. Actually the archbishop of Belgium, Cardinal van Roey, reacted very soon. In agreement with his Study Commission, he denied the supernatural character of all these alleged apparitions with the exception of the initial ones, at Beauraing and Banneux. They were the subject of much longer examinations and negotiations, but finally recognized.
Meessen's warning to his readers is well worth quoting:
I am particularly sensible to the feelings of those who pray with great fervour, since they are deeply suffering and hope to get help from a loving God. But I am also a scientist, who has to search the truth, and as professor of a Catholic University, I feel particularly responsible with respect to the Church and all humans. If necessary, it would be much better to change some ideas, instead of to dwell in illusions or deception. I hope that everyone will understand this point of view.
Lastly, I should add that the seers at Fatima did not see the same thing. Francisco did not see Our Lady's lips move, but Lucia and Jacinta did. Fr. Karl Rahner, in his 1961 book, Visions and Prophecies, also relates that when Our Lady disappeared, she didn't do so all at once. Different body parts disappeared in different stages: head, trunk and feet. Finally, the difficulties associated with Lucia's prophecy on October 13, 1917, that the war would end that day, are well-known. One might dismiss these as minor aberrations, but after reading Professor Meessen's account of the false Marian apparition at Heroldsbach in 1949-50, as well as his neurophysiological explanation of the events that occurred, I think it is prudent to conclude that they were probably natural. Even the sightings at a distance from Fatima may have been prompted by widespread public expectation of a miracle on that day, coupled with the fact that small-scale solar miracles had been observed at Fatima previously. (I should add in fairness, though, that the sighting by the Portuguese poet, Alfonso Lopes Vieira, doesn't fit this explanation, as he wasn't thinking about the miracle when he saw it from 25 miles away.) The sudden drying of the eyewitnesses' clothing remains a puzzle, too. ============================================ A Genuine, Indubitable Miracle If someone is looking for a genuine miracle, however, then I would advise them to have a look at this account of the life of St. Joseph of Cupertino, who was the phenomenon of the 17th century. The Flying Saint , by Renzo Allegri, is an article about the 17th century saint, Joseph of Cupertino. Here's an excerpt:
He has entered history as the 'flying saint'. One of the characteristics of his extraordinary mystic experiences was his ecstasies. All he needed to see was an image of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Saint Francis or another saint, or hear their names spoken aloud, and he went into ecstasy. He let out a cry and floated into the air. He remained there, suspended between the earth and the sky for up to even an hour, two hours, three hours... while people ran to see this phenomenon. Crowds of the devoted and curious thronged around him, all amazed and moved, while doctors and scientists attempted to reach him using ladders and ropes in order to subject him to tests and try to understand how such a thing was possible... He was subjected to three trials and yet even before the judges he went into ecstasy and rose up into the air as happened to him often. The judges, frightened, didn't have the courage to condemn him and they sent him to Rome. This time, Joseph was interrogated before the Pope, Urban VIII, and so great was his joy at seeing the Vicar of Christ, that he went into ecstasy floating high in the air above the Pope and the cardinals gathered there. Having witnessed such a miracle before their very eyes, the cardinals all became great admirers of this humble friar. Friar Joseph was never condemned, but remained 'under suspicion' by the Inquisition. The judges of the terrible tribunal always kept him under control, and every now and then, in order to lessen and hinder his popularity among the faithful, they intervened with restrictions, prohibitions and orders to change friaries. Friar Joseph was obliged to live in exile, yet wherever he was sent, the crowd flocked to see him. In 1639, he was in Assisi for 14 years. His reputation for saintliness preceded him, and he was welcomed to this little town by an enormous crowd. The deputies of the city, gathered together for a plenary meeting, attributed him with honorary citizenship, and he welcomed this news with tears in his eyes declaring, 'Now I am a fellow citizen of my father St. Francis.' In Assisi, the ecstasies and other mystic phenomena continued to increase. A celestial perfume emanated from his body at all times. Many sick people were healed through touching his habit. Among the many visitors, there were many illustrious ecclesiastics, famous theologians, bishops, cardinals, princes and princesses, knights and ladies. The Venerable Infanta Mary of Savoie was one of his penitents. The Lutheran Prince of Brunswick converted after attending one of Joseph of Cupertino's Masses... It has been calculated that Joseph's 'ecstatic flights' took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century. They were so sensational and so public that they attracted attention from curious people from all walks of life, Italians and foreigners, believers and unbelievers, simple folk, but also scholars, scientists, priests, bishops and cardinals. They continued to occur in every situation, in whatever church in which the saint prayed or celebrated Mass. It is impossible to doubt such a sensational and public phenomenon which repeated itself over time.
Now that's a miracle for you!vjtorley
December 28, 2012
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How would I assess say Islamic miracles against Christian ones?
The Quran states that Muhammed performed no physical miracles and when Christians challenged Muhammed to prove he was from God, he said he didn't do miracles. He was simply a prophet. If the leader doesn't do miracles, and if the Quran states that believers shouldn't need miracles, that should settle the matter. Granted, some Muslims have claimed miracles anyway, but there is no evidence to support their claims. On the other hand, when Jesus performed real miracles-- numerous and varied miracles-- such as raising people from the dead, He often did it in the presence of his enemies, who didn't even both to deny their validity. They simply attributed them to the power of Hell. When your enemies agree that you have performed a miracle, that's pretty strong evidence.StephenB
December 28, 2012
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I have never seen a ghost, I have however witnessed a miracle, since I know miracles exist, I am open to the possibility that ghosts exist. And BA is correct if the miracle of a single cell does not convince you that miracles are true then you my friend whoever you are is blind to truth. Be vets your response had me thinking.... why is evolution the only scientific theory protected by law?Andre
December 28, 2012
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Alan, excuse me, but are not you still a Darwinist even though we are now faced with the fact that the simplest cell on earth is shown to be far more functionally complex than was dreamt about even a few short decades ago?,,, Thus, if you can't properly discern the 'miracle of the cell' which is right in front of you, how in blue blazes will you be able to discern the much finer distinction to be made as to which historical miracles warrant credibility and which warrant suspicion? notes: To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers - July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That's a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford's Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What's fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore's Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that's only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/ Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information - David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors - Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 "No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms' genomes programmed?" http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf Here is one 'miracle' that refuses to be easily dismissed: Shroud of Turin - Carbon 14 test proves false (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 Three Hebrew Letters on Surface of Solid Object - ‘The Lamb’ - pictures of neck area http://shroud3d.com/findings/three-hebrew-letters-on-surface-of-solid-objectbornagain77
December 28, 2012
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In truth there are only two kinds of people; those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don't know it. ~ G.K. Chesterton The thing that really is trying to tyrannise through government is Science. The thing that really does use the secular arm is Science. And the creed that really is levying tithes and capturing schools, the creed that really is enforced by fine and imprisonment, the creed that really is proclaimed not in sermons but in statuettes, and spread not by pilgrims but by policemen – that creed is the great but disputed system of thought which began with Evolution and has ended in Eugenics. Materialism is really our established Church; for the Government will really help it to persecute its heretics. ~ G.K. Chestertonbevets
December 28, 2012
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Why should I believe that Joseph Smith or Mohammed speaks for God? I have only their claim that they received a revelation. That’s not enough.
No, indeed! Yet if if we look here, there seem to be many reported miracles associated with Mohammed (or Muhammad, even). Imagine I was a curious alien asking about religion. I would have no particular racial or cultural bias. How would I assess say Islamic miracles against Christian ones?Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
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OT: 'How Darwin Destroyed Reason: Formal and final causes' A Lecture by Prof. Stephen Clark - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc3zH4GKaj4 Though I haven't watched this recently uploaded video yet, it looks very interesting.bornagain77
December 28, 2012
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I’m also puzzled about, if true, what the events reported by De Marchi are supposed to signify.
Only a miracle can establish heavenly credibility. Recall the Gospels where Jesus says, "If you don't believe me, believe my works (miracles)." Anyone can claim to speak for God or be a prophet and many have. That doesn't mean they have credibility. Why should I believe that Joseph Smith or Mohammed speaks for God? I have only their claim that they received a revelation. That's not enough.StephenB
December 28, 2012
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Is there any wiggle room here? Is there the option that whoever is manipultaing the time-space continuum planting the experiences directly into the chosen consciousnesses à la “Total Recall”? Seems a much more economical way of working than, say, actually moving the Sun about.
It's possible, I suppose. Why not? Whatever the case, skeptics, scoffers, and newspaper reporters had the same experience as believers. Or perhaps the miracle would be in the perfect timing of a natural event--calling the shot, so to speak. My personal opinion, though, is that the laws of nature were suspended.StephenB
December 28, 2012
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Stephen, I'm also puzzled about, if true, what the events reported by De Marchi are supposed to signify.Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
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Oops manipulating!Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
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You think that 70,000 devoted followers who simply believe in an event is pretty much the same thing as 70,000 witnesses who actually observe an event.
No. we are not that far along in either case. Is there any wiggle room here? Is there the option that whoever is manipultaing the time-space continuum planting the experiences directly into the chosen consciousnesses à la "Total Recall"? Seems a much more economical way of working than, say, actually moving the Sun about.Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
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Alan:
Joseph Smith? More than 70,000 followers, I think! Doesn’t anyone think I ought not to be sceptical about the book of Mormon, the gold plates and the stone spectacles?
Oh that's right. You think that 70,000 devoted followers who simply believe in an event is pretty much the same thing as 70,000 witnesses who actually observe an event. Nice sense of proportion you've got going there.StephenB
December 28, 2012
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70,000 to 100,000 people, after leaving home to witness a promised miracle, returned to make the following report: “Yeah she promised a miracle, but all she did was move the sun out of the sky——big deal.”
So no 70,000 individual written accounts then. Just one account claiming 70,000 witnesses.Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
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Alan Fox, You are swayed by the imaginary evidence of evolutionism, so who do you think you're fooling here? And if you are really curious about ghosts you would go to the sites that are said to be haunted and investigate. But you don't because you aren't curious at all.Joe
December 28, 2012
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