Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

G.K. Chesterton on Why Materialists, Not Theists, Are The Dogmatists

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them. The open, obvious, democratic thing is to believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a miracle, just as you believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a murder. The plain, popular course is to trust the peasant’s word about the ghost exactly as far as you trust the peasant’s word about the landlord. Being a peasant he will probably have a great deal of healthy agnosticism about both.

Still you could fill the British Museum with evidence uttered by the peasant, and given in favour of the ghost. If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural. If you reject it, you can only mean one of two things. You reject the peasant’s story about the ghost either because the man is a peasant or because the story is a ghost story.

That is, you either deny the main principle of democracy, or you affirm the main principle of materialism — the abstract impossibility of miracle. You have a perfect right to do so; but in that case you are the dogmatist. It is we Christians who accept all actual evidence — it is you rationalists who refuse actual evidence being constrained to do so by your creed.

But I am not constrained by any creed in the matter, and looking impartially into certain miracles of mediaeval and modern times, I have come to the conclusion that they occurred. All argument against these plain facts is always argument in a circle. If I say, “Mediaeval documents attest certain miracles as much as they attest certain battles,” they answer, “But mediaevals were superstitious”; if I want to know in what they were superstitious, the only ultimate answer is that they believed in the miracles. If I say “a peasant saw a ghost,” I am told, “But peasants are so credulous.” If I ask, “Why credulous?” the only answer is — that they see ghosts.

Comments
Alan
"Really, Stephen? There are 70,000 recorded, written and signed eye-witness accounts?"
Well, let's try this one. 70,000 to 100,000 people, after leaving home to witness a promised miracle, returned to make the following report: "Yeah she promised a miracle, but all she did was move the sun out of the sky------big deal." How about this? 70,000 to 100,000 people didn't congregate to witness a promised miracle. Each one just happened to stumble on to the scene at the same time and, with no prompting, experienced the same hallucination to the very last detail. Do those two interpretations work better for you, Alan.StephenB
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
05:55 AM
5
05
55
AM
PDT
OT: Tyndall house just loaded the Stephen Meyer lecture that was associated with the recent Steve Fuller lecture featured on UD: 'Intelligent Design: The Most Credible Idea?' A Lecture by Dr Stephen C Meyer - video (lecture delivered July in Cambridge, England) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a-h88ziYA4bornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
05:28 AM
5
05
28
AM
PDT
Semi related: An Atheist Encounters Jesus - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fFFCOnAf0kbornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
04:12 AM
4
04
12
AM
PDT
PS It occurs to me that there are alleged to be some 1.3 billion followers of Islam. Should I then be swayed about the reported visions and assorted miracles that occurred to and around the prophet Mohamed? Joseph Smith? More than 70,000 followers, I think! Doesn't anyone think I ought not to be sceptical about the book of Mormon, the gold plates and the stone spectacles?Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
03:49 AM
3
03
49
AM
PDT
Really, Stephen? There are 70,000 recorded, written and signed eye-witness accounts? Oops missed a tag!Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
03:08 AM
3
03
08
AM
PDT
StephenB writes:
(70,000 people witnessed and and reported on the event).
Really, Stephen? There are 70,000 recorded, written and signed eye-witness accounts?
Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
03:07 AM
3
03
07
AM
PDT
Barry quotes AF
“If we are talking about ghosts, then people’s imagination is the only evidence we have for ghosts.”
Then Barry asks me:
How do you know that every single one of the thousands upon thousands of eye witness accounts of ghosts is solely the product of imagination?
Then Barry supplies his own wrong answer!
Answer: Your dogma demands it. Alan, your inability to see this simple truth is another manifestation of your dogmatism.
As a matter of fact, I am not a dogmatist. If labels mean anything other than a way of demonizing people who don't share your own dogma, I am a pragmatist! You have asked me "How do you know that every single one of the thousands upon thousands of eye witness accounts of ghosts is solely the product of imagination?" In case you were interested, the correct answer is that I don't know. However you seem to be confused between whether ghosts exist (to which the answer is I really don"t know) and whether people ever actually perceive ghosts or always imagine them. The answer to this is again I don't know but there is only the evidence that they report seeing. I'd be most curious and fascinated to learn of any evidence of the imaginary that was something more than people's reported experiences.Alan Fox
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
02:53 AM
2
02
53
AM
PDT
WD400: How do you know -- without begging questions -- that that which you dismiss as unlikely is in fact so? (Consider the OP and VJT's post here in your considerations.) KFkairosfocus
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
01:04 AM
1
01
04
AM
PDT
Starbuck, @ 23:
Your passion and brilliance is being wasted on Bronze Age myths
First, given Dawkins' ill-tempered, rather accusatory sophomoric outbursts and talking-points, that is ill-advised, loaded language. I suggest that your very terms indicate that you have taken aboard some rather loaded and ill-advised talking points. The next suggestion is that such is liable to affect how you evaluate evidence. Which brings up one of my concerns for many inclined to selective hyperskepticism -- that "I" do not like or reject "your" evidence or conclusions does not make the evidence that was rejected vanish into nothingness. Or, as Aristotle put it, our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are very different from those we make when we are pained and hostile. Indeed, I think we may define a new fallacy: the "there is no evidence" fallacy. (Any suggestions for a concise definition? My first try: waving a dismissive rhetorical magic wand to try to make otherwise relevant and reasonable but unwelcome facts and reasoning vanish. But, facts are like mules: stubbornly insistent on standing their ground. Speaking of which, we probably also need to talk about the magic wand that tries to turn just so stories about the unobserved deep past into practically certain fact comparable to the roundness of the earth. [Which last, contrary to C19 rationalist myths, was the dominant view of educated Westerners since c. 300 BC with Eratosthenes' shadows exercise. The debate with Columbus was over his implied estimate for the circumference of the earth, not its roundness. And, his critics were RIGHT.]) I would suggest, too, that there is a pivotal, historical case in point from C1 that is the decisive case to study. I suggest you may find it useful to begin here -- which responds to Dawkins' recent Playboy interview in which he tried to brush aside the historicity of the principal character in question (you can't make this stuff up) -- and go on from that [e.g. here on in context], bearing in mind criteria for credibility of historical reports and the cluster of minimal facts that have commended themselves to the absolute to the overwhelming majority of scholarship over the past generation. (Of course, you would not learn such from the likes of the usual Cable TV channel shows etc.) From this case, you may then reflect on issues of evidence, the supernatural [and BTW, can you define "natural" cogently for us . . . ] and the miraculous. KFkairosfocus
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
12:47 AM
12
12
47
AM
PDT
The people wh0 investigate these matters call them apparitions. There is little doubt that people "experience" them, they are well documented by innumerable investigators of every stripe e.g. "Apparitions Of The Living" by Frederick Meyers. The investigators themselves are divided over what they are. Most consider them a kind of hallucination. The reasonig is people may have spirits, but do clothes have spirits. Some of them are carrying things, or even riding a horse. Others think they are hallucinations triggered by esp(telepathy) Still others think they are generated by something at the local. The latter because there are many case of multiple percipients they mostly agree on what they see such as clothing and they are in the proper perspective. Me I have no idea. I do think it's evidence of something.carlg
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:01 PM
11
11
01
PM
PDT
The Miracle of the Sun (The Virgin Mary at Fatima) An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal
It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time "The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely. "Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl. "During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color. "Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible. "All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena.
Professor Almeida Garrett's full account may be found in Novos Documentos de Fatima (Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984) (70,000 people witnessed and and reported on the event).StephenB
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:53 PM
10
10
53
PM
PDT
Nick at 12, The peasant's personal ghosts seem to be rather like the materialist' mythical mechanisms of life, correct? And the peasant has as much of an explanation for disembodiment as you do for the irreversable relationships required to organize biochemistry. Perhaps the peasant has a bit more evidence, since he is a conscious agent himself. Although he can launch an object of his own making millions of miles into space to hit a small passing rock, and can alter his own genetic code and count the number of atoms in the universe, he has no evidence whatsoever for anything but an act of agency to resolve your little problem of the missing mechanism. Not only does he realize that an agent is inferred by the evidence, but he also knows that agents sometime leave a unique discoverable signature on matter, and that unique signature happens to be found at the precise point where your mechanism goes missing. Perhaps in humbleness to incontrovertible facts - as unrefuted and incomprehensible as this one may be - he believes he has ample reason to believe the inference. You can alway offer him the camaraderie of your myth, and if he doesn't accept it, you can blast him with your disdain. Either way, the evidence remains.Upright BiPed
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
08:05 PM
8
08
05
PM
PDT
Chesterton should have read Bayes. A priori unlikely events require stronger evidence that likely ones, so Chesterton should be a bit more skeptical of his apple women's (or anyone else's) testomony.wd400
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
07:04 PM
7
07
04
PM
PDT
A little something I wrote some time ago in a forum far, far away: Why it is irrational to believe there is no afterlife There is evidence (yes, even scientific) for the existence of god, the supernatural, and the afterlife; there is no evidence (that I'm aware of, that anyone has offered me) that those things do not exist. Even if there were a lack of evidence (which there is not), a lack of evidence is not evidence of nonexistence. At best, one can say they are unconvinced by the evidence, which would make them undecided or agnostic about such claims; however, they certainly cannot reasonably claim that the evidence supports a view that such things do not exist. It's fairly obvious that the belief that such things do not exist are rooted in ideological commitment and not reason or evidence-based positions.William J Murray
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
06:43 PM
6
06
43
PM
PDT
If david blaine or cris angel do a trick where it seems like they pulled a chickens head off with their hands and then put it back, and I report that I saw what looked like a chicken getting its head pulled off and put back, does that mean that my testimony is unreliable? I would think not. The trick is deliberately done to make it SEEM that way. Thats what you are supposed to see. This has no analog to stories of ghosts. What, I saw something that looked like a ghost but it really was just a holographic trick by a prankster? LOL! You fail.kuartus
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
06:21 PM
6
06
21
PM
PDT
Bornagain, much appreciated, I don't always respond to your posts but I do read themStarbuck
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
06:12 PM
6
06
12
PM
PDT
Starbuck, although I have disagreed very strongly with you on many things in the past, this following video on your site just earned my respect for you very much: "Legitmately" Raped http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m_nuhi-Jqcbornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
05:52 PM
5
05
52
PM
PDT
Nick, Alan, starbuck, and LarTanner are just upset because there is more evidence for ghosts than there is for there position. Deal with it guys...Joe
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
05:46 PM
5
05
46
PM
PDT
Alan Fox:
If we are talking about ghosts, then people’s imagination is the only evidence we have for ghosts.
And how do YOU know that, Alan? It is a given that you don't know what evidence is. So how would you know if there is evidence for ghosts or not?Joe
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
05:43 PM
5
05
43
PM
PDT
Your passion and brilliance is being wasted on Bronze Age mythsStarbuck
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
05:28 PM
5
05
28
PM
PDT
What proper noun designates the practitioner of scientism? I would suggest, a 'nescientist': in popular parlance, a 'know-nothing'. With their insane assumptions - never mind if the corporate funders of todays' seats of higher learning say otherwise - no academic accreditation, no matter how elevated, can offset the baneful bankruptcy of their intellectual dereliction. I couldn't help thinking of these infinitely gullible pseudo-sceptics, when reading the opening paragraph of Chapter 6, Amid the Demigods, of Palle Yourgrau's book, A World without Time, the forgotten legacy of Godel and Einstein. '6/ Amid the Demigods "When pygmies cast such long shadows, it must be very late in the day" GIAN-CARLO ROTA 'Princeton is not Vienna. Having fled Nazi-occupied Austria, Godel and Adele found themselves in an Ivy League college town, small, provincial and inbred, dominated by the imposing presence of the University, itself outclassed by the still more prestigious Institute for Advanced Study. Princeton's students may have touted themselves as the creme de la creme; the institute could boast that mere students, of whatever calibre, were not welcome. In these streets, it was hard to avoid rubbing shoulders with the intellectual elite, and with those who thought themselves as such. Bertrand Russell was unimpressed, He found Princeton 'full of new Gothic, and... as like Oxford as monkeys can make it.' Einstein was more delicate (evidently, Yourgrau's tongue is as wickedy satirical as either): Princeton is a wonderful piece of earth and at the same time an exceedingly amusing ceremonial backwater of tiny, spindly-shanked demigods.' The pygmies on stilts would have to make way for the entrance of two giants. If only... Incredible as it seems, Godel felt intimidated by the pygmies' culture of nescience to the point where he was ashamed of his Christian faith and sought to conceal it! What is perhaps still more fantasmagorical, is that those great exponents of the merits of the common-sense belief in, nay, the certainty of Intelligent Design, and indeed, their peers, such as Planck and Bohr, would still be 'on the back foot, today!!!!! Albeit for not much longer.Axel
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
05:24 PM
5
05
24
PM
PDT
Multiple witnesses claimed to see uri geller bending spoons, and this supernatural claim (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc) was debunked on national tv, but not before fooling many. I'm not against testimony as evidence, it's just unreliable, which is why many on death row get off on DNA inference. Come back to us, come back to mainstream society, come back to the 21st century. There's so much you all can do.Starbuck
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
05:14 PM
5
05
14
PM
PDT
Some miracles are rare, others are so commonplace that we have stopped recognizing them for what they are.Mung
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
04:35 PM
4
04
35
PM
PDT
Even "scientific evidence" is based upon witness testimony. So by all means, let's disregard all witness testimony. And scientists believe in things they cannot even see, or measure! How's that for a step down from belief in ghosts?Mung
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
04:32 PM
4
04
32
PM
PDT
Graham2 @ 14. You don’t seem to understand what Chesterton is saying. He is not saying we have to suspend our credulity with regard to every single account of a supposedly supernatural event no matter how absurd. Let’s use your “bus from heaven” as an example. As a rule miracles do not occur. That’s why we call them miracles. If you told me that story I would be skeptical. In fact, I would not believe it. But what if hundreds of unrelated people from all walks of life reported the same miraculous event? And what if they persisted in their story while being tortured to death when all they had to do to stop the torture was to recant? Chesterton and I would say, “We have to be open to at least the possibiliy that they are telling the truth.” You, being a dogmatic materialist would not have that option. Instead, you would have to say they allowed themselves to be tortured to death when all they had to do was recant a story they knew to be a lie. Occam’s razor indeed.Barry Arrington
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
Alan Fox: “If we are talking about ghosts, then people’s imagination is the only evidence we have for ghosts.” Another statement emanating from your dogma. How do you know that every single one of the thousands upon thousands of eye witness accounts of ghosts is solely the product of imagination? Answer: Your dogma demands it. Alan, your inability to see this simple truth is another manifestation of your dogmatism.Barry Arrington
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
03:43 PM
3
03
43
PM
PDT
Hehe, uneducated superstitious peaseants arent the only ones to report paranormal or supernatural phenomena. Scientists, some of which were atheists or materialist, have reported supernatutal phenomena such as reanimated corpses and other such things. Many of these reports are well documented in Craig Keeners book, "Miracles". In short people from all walks of life and all sorts of educational and cultural backgrounds have reported supernatural experieces, throughout all of history and into the present. Not just " superstitious peasants." I really wish atheist skeptics would drop the presumption that they get to speak for every rational person on the planet and that their mundane personal experience is universally shared among intelligent people. As for video evidence of ghosts, LOL! Would that even faze the skeptic? They could just claim its fake or whatnot. And btw there is video evidence of ghosts.kuartus
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
Barry quoting Chesterton;
If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural.
I prefer to speak of reality and imagination. If we are talking about ghosts, then people's imagination is the only evidence we have for ghosts. There is incidentally, an imaginative ( ;) ) explanation as to why people are prone to imagine scary critters lurking in the dark. There may be some survival advantage. Dogmatism, Barry? I'll let you judge. Seems you have a talent for it!
Are there any materialists out there who will come onto this thread and attempt to negate Chesterton’s argument instead of providing further proof of its validity?
Sorry, I'm a realist.Alan Fox
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them You bet. Ockams razor. Barry: If I told you my bus was late this morning, and then told you that when it arrived, it descended from the sky accompanied by a heavenly choir, I think (I hope) you would regard the 2 pieces of information with very different levels of skepticism.Graham2
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
@Alan re[9]: "Barry, of all people, (I would have thought) would be aware of the danger in condemning anyone on the word of a single witness." How about thousands of witnesses Alan? Cheterton again: “If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural.” I assume you will discount all of them, and that, of course, is Chesterton’s point. You are a dogmatist, and dogmatists are not open to any amount of evidence. They will always find a reason to be skeptical of evidence that contradicts their dogma. Are there any materialists out there who will come onto this thread and attempt to negate Chesterton’s argument instead of providing further proof of its validity?Barry Arrington
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:50 PM
2
02
50
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply