Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

G.K. Chesterton on Why Materialists, Not Theists, Are The Dogmatists

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them. The open, obvious, democratic thing is to believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a miracle, just as you believe an old apple-woman when she bears testimony to a murder. The plain, popular course is to trust the peasant’s word about the ghost exactly as far as you trust the peasant’s word about the landlord. Being a peasant he will probably have a great deal of healthy agnosticism about both.

Still you could fill the British Museum with evidence uttered by the peasant, and given in favour of the ghost. If it comes to human testimony there is a choking cataract of human testimony in favour of the supernatural. If you reject it, you can only mean one of two things. You reject the peasant’s story about the ghost either because the man is a peasant or because the story is a ghost story.

That is, you either deny the main principle of democracy, or you affirm the main principle of materialism — the abstract impossibility of miracle. You have a perfect right to do so; but in that case you are the dogmatist. It is we Christians who accept all actual evidence — it is you rationalists who refuse actual evidence being constrained to do so by your creed.

But I am not constrained by any creed in the matter, and looking impartially into certain miracles of mediaeval and modern times, I have come to the conclusion that they occurred. All argument against these plain facts is always argument in a circle. If I say, “Mediaeval documents attest certain miracles as much as they attest certain battles,” they answer, “But mediaevals were superstitious”; if I want to know in what they were superstitious, the only ultimate answer is that they believed in the miracles. If I say “a peasant saw a ghost,” I am told, “But peasants are so credulous.” If I ask, “Why credulous?” the only answer is — that they see ghosts.

Comments
I am perfectly happy for the ID people to be endorsing the evidential value of uneducated, superstitious peasants claiming to have seen ghosts. Although it's a little funny that no one has managed to get one on video in the modern age, what with the ghosts being so commonly seen and all.NickMatzke_UD
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:49 PM
2
02
49
PM
PDT
I mean independent evidence of murder and landlords, yes.Starbuck
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PDT
@starbuck - Starbuck you have a problem because you do exactly what Chesterton says, your decision is not based on all the evidence, but is based on your rejection of some evidence. Your problem ( which I expect you think is rational, but is actually incredibly irrational (see further down) ) is you reject all but scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is a particularly limited set of evidence which is rarely present in large quantities. This is because of the stringent requirements of an ensemble of controllable, repeatable events. In any investigation of a singular event we are only making a probability calculation. Given the hypothesis what is the probability of it being true? When you say we have evidence for murders or landlords - all you are saying is you have a whole lot of repeatable, controllable events that we classify with the abstract labels "landlords" and "murders". There can be no scientific evidence of a singular, non-controllable event. All miracles by definition are singular and non-controllable. Thus the circular argument. I only accept scientific evidence => I will never find evidence for the miraculous. This is the essence of dogmatism. ________ Now the reason i say the your rejection of all but scientific evidence is irrational is that your claim of rationality has no scientific basis. In order to make a rational decision, you must make your decision based solely on piecing together the immaterial abstract ideas to make a choice. The reason this must be done in the immaterial abstract world is otherwise we can not possibly compare all the evidence. For example - If I am going to claim there is a fire - I need to integrate sense of touch ( it's hot ), sense of sight ( it's bright ), sense of smell ( it's smells like ash ) along with immaterial ideas ( some bloke just shouted "FIRE!" ), ( someone else told me last week that there was flammable material here ). In order to do the comparison and contrast of all the information, we must either import the immaterial ideas to the physical world, or import the physical inputs to the immaterial abstract world. Since the decision itself ( I think a fire exists ) belongs to the immaterial set of ideas, we must be importing the physical facts to the realm of immaterial information. We then make a rational decision. So rationality itself depends on us being able to import physical information into the realm of the immaterial. You may classify this immaterial realm as "natural" as some do, or "supernatural" as I do. But either way it is not physical ( i.e. it has no lifetime ( it is always present), and does not respond to any natural forces ( strong nuclear, electro-weak, gravitational ). So the claim to make rational decisions depends on the existence of a world beyond the physical. Rational decisions are therefore non-physical entities that only exist in the immaterial world. Simply put, to believe in only physicalism and profess rationality, is irrational. So let's investigate your claim that you make "rational" decisions. Since a rational choice involves the comparison between non-physical entities, there can be no scientific evidence that you made a rational decision. I can therefore reject your claim you made a rational decision because you present no scientific evidence for it.JDH
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:33 PM
2
02
33
PM
PDT
You reject the peasant’s story about the ghost either because the man is a peasant or because the story is a ghost story.
I'm sceptical about any story involving discontinuities and I am also aware that people are eminently capable of making things up, as, say, with Chesterton's Auberon Quin. Shared experience and other such corroboration is a good test. Barry, of all people, (I would have thought) would be aware of the danger in condemning anyone on the word of a single witness.Alan Fox
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
Moreover, the correct ‘top down’ structure of how our bodies are constructed certainly support "Ghosts",,,
1.The lowest level of our bodies are the material atoms of our body. 2.The next higher level of our bodies is the energy of our bodies (biophotons). 3.The next higher level of our bodies is the quantum entanglement/information of our bodies (of which the classical information that is encoded on our DNA is found to be a subset of that quantum information). 4. The highest level of our bodies is the consciousness of our mind.
References: Light is found to be directing the chemical reactions of the material particles in the body by the following:
Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.” http://viewzone2.com/dna.html
Moreover, Quantum entanglement/information is now found in our body on a massive scale:
Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight – 2009 Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn’t be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That’s a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo’s equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein-folding/
The implications of finding 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum information/entanglement in our body on a massive scale are fairly self evident:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence/Conservation of Quantum Information) - Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video https://vimeo.com/39982578
Music and verse:
The Police – Spirits In The Material World – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq0KW-_48Cc Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
01:56 PM
1
01
56
PM
PDT
As to evidence for 'ghosts': NDE's (Ghosts) certainly trump Evolution in terms of evidence:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
As to the plausibility of NDE's (ghosts) concerning the structure of physical reality, well, they are found to be very plausible from what we can make out of the structure of physical reality: It is important to note that higher dimensions are invisible to our physical 3 Dimensional sight. The reason why ‘higher dimensions’ are invisible to our 3D vision is best illustrated by ‘Flatland’:
Dr. Quantum in Flatland - 3D in a 2D world – video http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/9395/Dr_Quantum_Flatland_Explanation_3D_in_a_2D_world/
Perhaps some may think that we have no scientific evidence to support the view that higher ‘invisible’ dimensions are above this 3 Dimensional world, but a person would be wrong in that presumption. Higher invisible dimensions are corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please note the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light:
Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/
The preceding video was made by two Australian University physics professors. Here is the interactive website, with link to the relativistic math at the bottom of the page, related to the preceding video;
Seeing Relativity http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/
As well, as with the 'scientifically' verified tunnel for special relativity to a higher dimension, we also have scientific confirmation of extreme ‘tunnel curvature’, within space-time, to a eternal ‘event horizon’ at black holes;
Space-Time of a Black hole http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8
It is also interesting to point out that a ‘tunnel’ to a higher dimension is also a common feature of Near Death Experiences:
Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/
The following testimony, at the start of the following video, is interesting for the NDEr (Vicki) tells of trying to reach out to someone in the operating room and yet her hand passed right through their shoulder:
Near Death Experience Tunnel - Speed Of Light - Turin Shroud - video http://www.vimeo.com/18371644
Vicki also commented:
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!" – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth - quote taken from first part of the preceding video
What’s more is that special relativity (and general relativity) also confirm the ‘eternity’ for this higher dimension. i.e. Time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12
It is also interesting to point out that this 'eternal' framework for time at the speed of light is also witnessed in Near Death Experience testimonies:
'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences 'Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything - past, present, future - exists simultaneously.' - Kimberly Clark Sharp - NDE testimony
‘Time dilation’, i.e. eternity, is confirmed by many lines of scientific evidence but basically the simplest way to understand this 'eternal framework' is to realize that this higher dimensional, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is also shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. This paradox is only possible for time at the speed of light if temporal time is a lower dimensional time that was created from a higher dimension that ‘contains all temporal time’,bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
Absolutely fabulous!!! Thank you Starbuck and LarTanner. I put up a post in which Chesterton makes a particular point, and then you come into the comment section and prove Chesterton’s point. Your Christmas present is either a little late or a lot early. Thanks again.Barry Arrington
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
01:32 PM
1
01
32
PM
PDT
Materialists dont get to decide what counts as evidence and what doesnt, nor do they get to impose their self serving definition of evidence onto others. Geez, the arrogance of these people! They just dismiss whole swaths of human experience with the wave of a hand.kuartus
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
Starbuck, Do you mean, evidence other than eyewitness testimony?Collin
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
I like the way Chesterton cites fact after fact.LarTanner
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:03 AM
11
11
03
AM
PDT
The problem is that we have evidence of murders and landlords, but none of ghosts.Starbuck
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:55 AM
10
10
55
AM
PDT
Chesterton was spot on, as usual. I think people are beginning to appreciate him more these days. I saw a website of a G K Chesterton Club in Argentina or Brazil recently.Axel
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply