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Gay marriage and the loss of civility

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In the wake of the recent Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage, Professor Jerry Coyne has authored a post in which he offers his thoughts on the ruling. In a telling passage which is remarkable for its myopia, he writes:

To those who oppose gay marriage, I say this: Is it really hurting you? What does an opponent have to lose if two homosexuals get married? I suppose they could say it could lead to the dissolution of society, but that’s clearly not the case.

Is it really hurting us? Yes, and for a very simple reason: from now on, those who oppose the Supreme Court’s decision will be branded as hateful bigots who are morally on a par with members of the Ku Klux Klan, despite the fact that most American blacks say gay rights are not the same as civil rights, and despite the fact that the Reverend Martin Luther King, America’s foremost civil rights activist, described the homosexual lifestyle as a “problem” in need of a “solution” – a “habit” stemming from a series of negative “experiences and circumstances.”

A Canadian commenter named Timocrates explains how bad things are going to get in America, in a response to philosopher Ed Feser’s brilliantly written blog article, Marriage and the Matrix (June 29, 2015):

Well, coming from Canada, let me warn my American friends about what you are soon going to be facing for anything remotely like denial of legitimacy or anything short of outright approval of homosexuality and all sexual deviance.

1. Social ostracism:
– In your workplace, where you are likely to be fired and not hired at all if you are known to have “controversial” views on homosexuality;
– You family. Friends stick out much longer than they will, but even they will become much, much more quiet and reserved and increasingly hesitant to help you.

2. Social madness and increased degeneracy:
– Polite social parties may well include the suggestion, nonchalantly, to consider throwing on some porn for entertainment;
– Men in women’s bathrooms in gyms, and they kick the people who try to intervene or complain about it out of the gym
– Endless sensitivity training in the workplace so everybody knows what they are and are not allowed to say or suggest to ensure a ‘safe and comfortable’ working environment ‘for everybody’

3. School torture
– Kids will begin learning about sex and how two moms and two dads are a normal kind of family as early as 6
– Sex-ed will begin as early as Grade 6, including descriptions of oral sex
– Any child who at any time identifies with any sex will be accommodated, whether bathroom or locker room

And the final stage that is now happening in Canada, the Trannies.

Transgender people will increasingly agitate that society, government, institutions and businesses facilitate their lies. They will agitate that dating sites and services simply portray them as their chosen sex without any warning to normal, unsuspecting users of services.

That last line is arguably the scariest for single people, especially single young men. We all know how a man is likely to respond after finding out she isn’t actually a she at all – and with gender change surgeries now, this may come later.

And here’s an excerpt from a poignant article on Patheos by Rebecca Hamilton, an 18-year member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, titled, Gay Marriage Sets Friend Against Friend, Brother Against Brother (July 3, 2015):

I’m going to share my own experiences in trying to deal with the question of saving relationships in the face of gay marriage and abortion. I don’t have a magic bullet to offer. What I bring instead is a hard reality.

Here’s what I’ve learned in my own life about the question of keeping your gay friends and following Christ: You can’t do it. They won’t let you. And that’s it.

The deepest personal wounds I’ve suffered since I became a Christian have to do with gay friends that I loved and trusted with all my heart. Two of my gay friends turned on me in a sudden, absolute and public way.

One of them, in particular, I loved with all my heart. He was — and is — as dear to me as my own blood. We shared so many good things through the years. I trusted him and cherished him.

I never once tried to change him or argued with him about these differences in our beliefs. In fact, I tried to avoid talking to him about it altogether. When he realized that I did not support gay marriage, he flew into a rage and … well … it was a horrible experience.

Among other things, he accused me of lying to him because I hadn’t been more up front on the issue.
Then, he went on the internet and publicly attacked me.

The other friend turned on me over abortion. I know, gay men and the abortion industry seem to be bizarre allies, but the gay men I’ve known are pro abortion fanatics. In fact, a good many gay men work for Planned Parenthood.

I do not have one encouraging word to share with those of you who want to keep your relationships with gay people and still follow the Church. My experience is that, no matter how you try, you cannot keep your relationships with your gay friends and follow your faith. They will not let you.

Even sadder, my experience is that they do not just end the friendship. They then go out and do everything they can to hurt you.

I can honestly say that I have not retaliated. I have never broken the confidences they shared with me. I have never attacked them. I have never tried to hurt them. And I never will.

Representative Hamilton adds:

I know one homosexual person who has been willing to accept me as an individual and at least be professional friends with me. When I told her I opposed gay marriage, she said, “I would never try to force you to violate your personal morality.”

I was so grateful to her I almost cried.

But she is unique in my experience. And, as I said, we have a professional friendship, not a deep personal friendship.

Finally, in a recent article on RealClearReligion titled, Beware of the Gaystapo (July 6, 2015), Catholic author Mark Judge equates the treatment of Christians by the gay rights movement to a form of emotional abuse:

Christian America is being emotionally abused by the gay rights movement.

Emotional abuse is a sinister human reality, arguably more iniquitous in its slow-drip subtlety than outright physical abuse or political aggression. In emotional abuse a partner … is lured in by love and affection, only to have their spouse or significant other exert more and more psychological and spiritual control, then curdling into abuse. The abuser might start as a loving person with a slight edge of sarcasm, but over time they methodically pick apart the self-esteem of their partner. The occasional cutting quip becomes a steady stream of put-downs. Nothing the abused person can do is enough.

Eventually there is an atmosphere of chaos and unpredictability. Victims often have emotional breakdowns…

In his article, Judge chronicles the events leading up to this abuse:

In the beginning, advocates for gay marriage assured us that they loved America. The country wasn’t perfect, but mostly what gay activists wanted was the ability to express love without violent reprisal. They didn’t want to control the rest of us, or dictate terms or tell us what to believe. No one would lose their job or business because of gay marriage…

For a few years things went well. Gay people got to live more openly. There were more homosexual characters on television and in politics. States were debating gay marriage.

But then something changed. Liberals didn’t just accept civil unions, they demanded gay marriage — or else.

Anyone who didn’t only accept gay marriage but celebrate it was isolated as a hateful bigot. Bullying and gas-lighting of resisters became common. Gay marriage advocates ignored or denied that they had ever argued that no one would lose their job if gay marriage was passed… Like an abuser who refuses to ever acknowledge wrong doing, preferring to turn the tables on the abused, gay marriage advocates now refuse to answer the most simple questions. To ask “What is marriage?” is to be emotionally blackmailed (shame!), isolated (go back to the 1950s!) and bullied (damn right, you’ll lose your business).

Judge’s last question, “What is marriage?” gets right to the heart of the matter. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court majority, in their recent ruling (Obergefell vs. Hodges), nowhere attempted to provide a clear definition of the term “marriage.” Instead, we were told that the meaning of marriage has evolved over time, despite documents cited by dissenting Chief Justice John Roberts, showing that the term “marriage” has been understood for centuries to mean: the lifelong union of a man and a woman.

Much play has been made in the media of Elena Kagan’s facile argument that if marriage were really about procreation, as traditionalists supposedly hold, then there should be laws on the books prohibiting elderly couples from typing the knot, as there is no chance that they will procreate. But the argument overlooks two very important points.

First, what defines marriage is not procreation , but its essentially monogamous character: it is a union of one man and one woman, for life. (There have of course been societies which tolerated polygamy, but the practice invariably results in the exploitation of women. What’s more, even in societies where the practice is allowed, it is relatively uncommon: the vast majority of men have one wife.) Now, there are heterosexual couples who have what they call “open marriages,” these are relatively uncommon, and even today in America, 90% of people still regard adultery as morally wrong. However, the great majority of gay “marriages” are not sexually monogamous: they are open relationships. And even if there are some gay couples practicing monogamy, I know of no gay couple who are willing to declare that open relationships between gays (or straight people, for that matter) are not real marriages. For this reason alone, then, a strong case can be made on legal grounds for refusing to recognize gay marriage: doing so would inevitably force people to publicly sanction relationships in which sexual monogamy is no longer even recognized as an ideal. That would in turn mean that schoolchildren are no longer taught that married people should be faithful to one another until death do them part.

Second, even if it is not the case that every marriage is potentially procreative, it is certainly true that the institution of marriage would not exist, were it not for the fact that humans procreate sexually. In a hypothetical world where intelligent life-forms reproduced asexually, there would be no marriage, since there would be no need for it. Why, then, do we allow elderly couples to wed? Simple enough: because the bond between them is of the same sort as that existing between couples who wed when they were young, had children, and have now grown old. In both cases, the couples in question physically express their love in exactly the same way, and under the same conditions: they promise to be faithful to each other until death do them part. Gay marriage does not even get a foot in the door here: the physical expression of their love is quite different, and there is usually no intention to remain sexually monogamous.

In his recent post, Professor Coyne argues that people who oppose gay marriage must do so because they regard it as un-Biblical and/or unnatural. But the argument I put forward in the foregoing paragraphs made no mention of the Bible or of natural law. All it assumed was that marriage is essentially monogamous – a sentiment still upheld by the vast majority of Americans.

But I can safely bet that gay rights advocates in America will make no attempt to respond to arguments like the one I have put forward above, in civil terms. Ridicule, scorn and abuse are weapons which suit their cause better, and no attempt must be spared to make their opponents look absurd. If Professor Coyne wants to know how the legalization of gay marriage has hurt ordinary people who oppose it, I can sum it up in one sentence: thoughtful public discussions of the pros and cons of gay marriage will no longer be possible, because one side has been demonized.

What do readers think?

Comments
Zachriel
They certainly thought they did, and pointed to the Bible and to the natural moral law to justify their views on slavery and segregation.
Their mistake was to ignore reason, read their cultural biases and prejudices into the Scriptures, and then dump the resultant theology into their natural law model. On the contrary, Natural Law is not written down, it is apprehended by reason. We grow in our knowledge of the natural moral law by shaping our morality to fit the facts about our human nature. Properly understood, it cannot be used to justify either racial discrimination or chattel slavery. Both violate the inherent dignity of the human person, which is inseparable from the natural moral law.StephenB
July 11, 2015
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Z
They certainly thought they did, and pointed to the Bible and to the natural moral law to justify their views on slavery and segregation.
StephenB explained this very well in his first paragraph @188. Natural Las thinkers have worked out the meaning and application of the natural moral law with new circumstances as they arise. This is work done by those who accept the natural law and who uncover its meaning over time. As it stands, homosexual marriage has not been viewed by any natural law thinkers as consistent with moral norms. To argue that those who reject or deny the existence of the natural moral law also accept that gay marriage is consistent with it is a non-sequitur. The framers of the American government accepted the natural law and used it as the foundation of moral arguments.Silver Asiatic
July 11, 2015
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They certainly thought they did,
Irrelevant.Virgil Cain
July 11, 2015
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harry: They didn’t correctly base their views on Biblical principles or the natural moral order. They certainly thought they did, and pointed to the Bible and to the natural moral law to justify their views on slavery and segregation.Zachriel
July 11, 2015
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Zachriel @195
Devout conservative Southern Baptists in the 19th century did not hold that view. Indeed, many held segregationist views well into the 20th century, and they based their views on Biblical principles and what they saw as the natural moral order.
They didn't correctly base their views on Biblical principles or the natural moral order. They have gotten past their error. All the Southern Baptists I know are staunch defenders of traditional morality and Biblical values, and would not even think of defending slavery with the Bible. Now it is the atheists' turn to get past their errors, expressed in social engineering via eugenics. euthanasia, abortion and population control. Unlike Christians, though, atheists have nothing within to guide them out of their errors. Apparently they are not even willing to believe of each and every human being: "You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.”harry
July 11, 2015
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Great discussion StephenB!! Thanks.Eugen
July 11, 2015
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harry: Even those who don’t believe every human being has been endowed with basic rights by their Creator, should be able to see that either every human being possesses certain intrinsic rights, or none of us do. Devout conservative Southern Baptists in the 19th century did not hold that view. Indeed, many held segregationist views well into the 20th century, and they based their views on Biblical principles and what they saw as the natural moral order. "You must be firm with inferiors but you must be gentle with them, especially darkies.” — Gerald O'Hara, Gone with the WindZachriel
July 11, 2015
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Hi, Zachriel,
Not merely a positive good, but justified by the natural moral order.
Right. Some of their arguments remind one of "Christians" defending the "right" to take the life of the child in the womb. As it is put in the Desiderata, "You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here." That applies to every human being. One doesn't need to be Christian to see that killing innocent human beings, or buying, selling and breeding them like they are animals, is wrong. Even those who don't believe every human being has been endowed with basic rights by their Creator, should be able to see that either every human being possesses certain intrinsic rights, or none of us do. "Human" is all any of us are. To "legally" trample on the rights of any segment of humanity destroys the rights of all humanity. One might not always remain among those who exercise such "legal" rights. One might end up among a segment of humanity whose rights may be "legally" trampled upon by others. To defend the intrinsic rights of any and every human being is to defend one's self. Although it seems that those who aggressively do so tend to be serious Christians, as were the Abolitionists, and as are most serious Pro-Lifers. I think this is because serious Christians are led to look at the plight of others, to love their neighbor as themselves, to see in the alleviation of the injustice suffered by others an opportunity to respond to the love Christ showed them in accepting horrific suffering for their sake.harry
July 11, 2015
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harry: Most of the Founders thought that the ending of the slave trade would end slavery in the United States. Slave breeding became the next growth industry. harry: Those making all that money financed apologists and politicians who began promoting the institution of slavery as a positive good. Not merely a positive good, but justified by the natural moral order.Zachriel
July 11, 2015
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Wow. How interesting, Stephen. Poetic justice in the pipeline, too, by the look of it.Axel
July 11, 2015
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StephenB @188
It is also likely that some jurists or legislators were lying bigots who wanted to use the name of God to justify and vent their outrage, especially during pre-Civil War ear. That may be why some Court decisions and Constitutions strayed from the principles in the Declaration of Independence. It served their interests.
The Civil War ended slavery but not the legal positivism that corrupted American jurisprudence while slavery was being aggressively defended by its proponents. The American Founders were embarrassed by slavery and knew quite will it was irreconcilable with the principles proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. They saw slavery as an institution that was on its way out. Consider Horace Greeley's remark from his book on the history of slavery in the United States. After listing all the clauses in the Constitution that were claimed to have a bearing on slavery:
It will be noted that the word "slave," or "slavery" does not appear therein. Mr. Madison, who was a leading and observant member of the Convention, and who took notes of its daily proceedings, affirms that this silence was designed -- the Convention being unwilling that the Constitution of the United States should recognize property in human beings. In passages where slaves are presumed to be comtemplated, they are uniformly designated as "persons," never as property. Contemporary history proves that it was the belief of at least a large portion of the delegates that slavery could not long survive the final stoppage of the slave trade, which was expected to (and did) occur in 1808. -- A history of the struggle for slavery extension or restriction in the United States: from the Declaration of independence to the present day, Horace Greeley, 1811-1872
Most of the Founders thought that the ending of the slave trade would end slavery in the United States. Slavery was seen by these Founders as an evil to be temporarily tolerated for the sake of the Union. They were wrong. Slavery didn't end. It had become very lucrative on large plantations where labor-intensive cash crops could be grown. Those making all that money financed apologists and politicians who began promoting the institution of slavery as a positive good. What had been seen as a necessary evil, only to be temporarily tolerated, was transformed into a positive good, defended from the Scriptures (with an asinine interpretation) by leading scholars, jurists and preachers. Money talks. The big plantation owners had plenty of that. As you said: It served their interests to deny the principles in the Declaration of Independence. The legal positivism introduced into American jurisprudence in defense of the indefensible -- slavery -- eventually led to the disastrous Dred Scott vs. Sanford, Roe vs. Wade, and Obergefell vs. Hodges decisions. Legal positivism will eventually destroy America. Unless, of course, by the miraculous grace of God, the original natural law jurisprudence of the Founders is once again established. One has to believe in miracles to entertain such a hope. But nothing is impossible for God.harry
July 11, 2015
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[1] Acorns are nuts. Acorns are not nuts, acorns are oak trees. Where do these people go to school!?Mung
July 10, 2015
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SB: I ask again, is it a constitutionally protected right for a man to marry his mother, or his father, or his son (if of age) or his daughter (if of age)? If not, why not? People have always had this right and it has always been constitutionally recognized and protected under the 14th amendment.Mung
July 10, 2015
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On 167 : 169, Working through the natural moral law requires a continuous application of reason and a willingness to build on what we have already learned. It took centuries for natural law thinkers to figure out the boundaries of human freedom. Progress is possible because the unchanging standard of human dignity and human nature allow the unchanging principles to remain firm even as their application is always changing. Their knowledge of objective morality becomes deeper. Accordingly, there are many kinds of slavery and many of them do not necessarily offend human dignity. Consider, for example, the difference between chattel slavery at one extreme, and indentured servitude at the other extreme. It was these same natural law thinkers that provided the categories. How do we know, for example, that sex slavery or child slavery is far worse than "bonded labor?" It is because reason and the natural moral law as understood in the context of human dignity tell us so. The latter evils are so great that no development or extended reason is necessary to apprehend it. Both are self-evidently wrong. No one ever has tried to justify them by appealing to Divine law or natural law. Because we know the difference between the best and the worst, we can know that debt labor, for example, can be morally justified. If we don't have the natural moral law, we cannot make moral calculations. We cannot place the categories in rank order unless we have an unchanging standard with which to rank them. Yes, some natural law claimants have been wrong about chattel slavery at different times in history if they didn't really understand natural law or they mistakenly conflated it Divine Law, or if they injected their own biases and prejudices into their biblical theology. It is also likely that some jurists or legislators were lying bigots who wanted to use the name of God to justify and vent their outrage, especially during pre-Civil War ear. That may be why some Court decisions and Constitutions strayed from the principles in the Declaration of Independence. It served their interests. Still, it is this ongoing application of reason that continues to make the moral image sharper and sharper. The more we think about it, the closer we get to the truth---that is, if we accept the objective principle of the natural moral law. So it is with homosexuality. We have experienced both extremes. At one end, uneducated bible thumpers design ugly placards that say, "God hates fags.” At the other end, trendy theologians claim that compassion is defined by kindly accepting the gay lifestyle, as if allowing the culture to be destroyed is an act of love. In the middle of that chaos, Natural law gets it right: Hate the sin; love the sinner. Meanwhile, my questions for sean and REC persist. Will they try to buy more time by looking for loopholes in what I just wrote, or will they engage me in dialogue?StephenB
July 10, 2015
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REC
StephenB We’ve done this bit. Go to 167 and 169. Think. Reply. Or don’t.
We haven't done this bit at all. My questions are on the table.StephenB
July 10, 2015
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StephenB We've done this bit. Go to 167 and 169. Think. Reply. Or don't. What did those past applications of "natural law" get wrong? I'd say it is the "consistent with human nature and human dignity" part. What is human nature? Dangerously subject to interpretation.REC
July 10, 2015
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SB: “Why do you respond to my questions with another question?” REC
Because they are an absurd attempt to steer this thread off topic. I have no idea where you are going with it.
Absurd? It was you who started this line of questioning. When you did, I immediately provided an honest answer. I can stretch out on it if you like. Because the natural moral law is self evidently true, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, I can know that same natural moral law through the application of my reason. All along, I have explained all my answers in terms of that same natural moral and the inherent dignity of the human person. A moral act is one that is consistent with human nature and human dignity; an immoral act is one that is not. Thus, I can, in principle, know right from wrong. You have given me nothing but sneers. So, I would like to know your position on the matter. Do you know that chattel slavery is wrong? Do you know that it is wrong for a court to uphold it? If you like, I can make it easier for you with a multiple choice menu: [a] Yes, I know that chattel slavery is wrong. [b] I don't really know, but it just doesn't feel right. [c] No, chattel slavery is not wrong. ------------------------------------------- [a] Yes, any court finding that supported slavery was wrong. [b] I don't really have an opinion, but it doesn't feel right. [c] No, the courts were right to uphold slavery.
You’ve lost the natural law argument, so now what, you want to punt?
I don't think our readers would agree with your assessment given your unwillingness to engage.StephenB
July 10, 2015
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"Why do you respond to my questions with another question?" Because they are an absurd attempt to steer this thread off topic. I have no idea where you are going with it. The problem you have is you can't, with any consistency, demonstrate why Obergfell was decided wrongly and Loving, etc... were decided correctly. You've lost the natural law argument, so now what, you want to punt?REC
July 10, 2015
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REC @182 Why do you respond to my questions with another question?: Do you know that chattel slavery is wrong? Do you know that it is wrong for a court to uphold it?StephenB
July 10, 2015
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Ok, you're sure slavery is wrong, that anti-miscegenation laws are wrong, that women have the right to peruse careers.... but that same sex marriage is wrong because: _____________________________________________________ (fill in the blank here)REC
July 10, 2015
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REC
But you’re certain these courts, which have cited the laws of nature, man, God, and the Declaration of Independence are wrong and that you are right
On the contrary, I know that chattel slavery is wrong, and that the Declaration of Independence is right, and that jurists who defy it are wrong. The question, though, is this: Do you know that chattel slavery is wrong? Do you know that it is wrong for a court to uphold it?StephenB
July 10, 2015
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"Courts have ruled that slavery is moral and courts have ruled that slavery is immoral; courts have ruled that anti-racial marriage is moral and courts have ruled that anti-racial marriage is immoral. Courts have ruled that discrimination against blacks is moral, and courts have ruled that discrimination against blacks is immoral. Obviously, courts cannot always be trusted......" But you're certain these courts, which have cited the laws of nature, man, God, and the Declaration of Independence are wrong and that you are right, and that you have unquestionable access to a moral standard they do not, one that lets you say same sex marriage should be illegal???REC
July 10, 2015
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[above] "anti-racial" should be "interracial"StephenB
July 10, 2015
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sean
Question answered, you just don’t like my answer.
You didn’t answer. The ability to consent is not an issue in my examples. The mother or father can be 40 and the child can be 20. I ask again, is it a constitutionally protected right for a man to marry his mother, or his father, or his son (if of age) or his daughter (if of age)? If not, why not?
Only the requirement that the Courts explain their decisions, that the Courts be insulated from corrupting influences to the extent that it can be.
Courts have ruled that slavery is moral and courts have ruled that slavery is immoral; courts have ruled that anti-racial marriage is moral and courts have ruled that anti-racial marriage is immoral. Courts have ruled that discrimination against blacks is moral, and courts have ruled that discrimination against blacks is immoral. Obviously, courts cannot always be trusted to tell us which laws are just and which ones are not. Some other standard must be used. You have no other standard.
To say that God does anything is religious; the First Amendment does not just ban establishment of religion, it bans all laws “respecting an establishment of religion”. This means no law can even be a first, tentative step TOWARD establishment of religion.
You are assuming a meaning of “establishment of religion” that is far different from what was intended by the founders. Do you know what that meaning was? (Hint: It has to do with sectarian differences in religious beliefs.)
The Declaration of Independence is a PRE-constitutional political statement. It is years older than the Constitution, and it is NOT a law.
It IS a law and it identifies itself as a law. It is a law that governs all other laws. That is precisely why it was written. People deserve to be free BECAUSE the Creator conferred natural rights on them. That is the law of nature. It is the most important law of all, the standard by which all other laws are to be judged. The Declaration of Independence provides the “why” The Constitution provides the “how.” The two documents are inextricably tied together.
Here is your logic: [1] Acorns are nuts. [2] Oak trees grow from acorns. By your logic, that means that [3] Oak trees are nuts. Ah, no.
I didn’t give you logic, I gave you a fact. To state a fact is not to perform a syllogism. If you don’t understand the difference between Natural law, which is apprehended by reason, and Divine Law, which is said to be supernaturally revealed, I cannot help you.
If it assumes a deity is the source of moral law, that OF ITSELF, makes the “natural moral law” religious.
To apprehend the existence of the Natural law through reason is not to assume a deity. The deity can be inferred only after the law is apprehended, The point is that you can’t assume something and infer it at the same time. Please try to grasp that point. Meanwhile, it is clear that you have no idea where rights come from and you have no idea how they could be (or why they should be) inalienable.StephenB
July 10, 2015
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Sorry, REC. Here it is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141142220 Wouldn't want to disappoint you.Axel
July 10, 2015
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Axel@175 What post are you referring to? Mackdaddy? "Mendacity or skipping blithely over falsehoods, is evidently par for the course for the others." Could you give us an example, or are you just shouting "LIARS!!!"REC
July 10, 2015
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To revert to my point about the shameless mendacity of seemingly a large majority of homosexual activists, here is just one example. Note the word, 'simplistic' in the post by mackdaddy (which ought to be 'mendacious' or 'erroneous' - the only poster who raised a red flag, albeit hesitantly. Mendacity or skipping blithely over falsehoods, is evidently par for the course for the others. The 'red mist' comes down and the Alice in Wonderland world takes over.Axel
July 10, 2015
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To StephenB, Andre, and Zachriel; StephenB @171:
How do you know that they [same-sex marriages] do no harm to others?
How does anyone know that something does not exist? Those who claim it does can provide no evidence, much less proof. Many harms have been claimed but none survive even superficial scrutiny.
Some say that it [legalized same-sex marriage] does harm by requiring others to accept the homosexual lifestyle ...
Obergefell does not require one to accept anything except that same-sex marriages are legal and that no one can impose their beliefs on others.
[harm caused] by encouraging the state to punish those who believe differently.
Hysteria. As long as those who believe differently do not obstruct the rights of others, there’s no reason to punish them. Also Chutzpah: before the idea of marriage equality, the State was punishing those who believed differently from you.
Why should your opinion about harm be given preference over their opinion?
Why should the opponent of same-sex marriage have their opinions given preference over that of same-sex couples? Anyone can claim a harm from anything, but if the claimant cannot reasonably show the harm, the State should regard their claims as unmerited. None of this is new or radical.
Clearly, the notion of “harm” cannot possibly serve as a standard for justice.
It can, but the harm must be actual and unjustified, not merely claimed.
Question not really answered. Do you have constitutional right to marry your mother, assuming she has free choice? If not, why not?
Question answered, you just don’t like my answer. In summary: it depends on facts that I don’t have and you haven’t supplied. And if you read my answer (I suspect not.) then you’d know my concern is not with the mother’s choice, but the child’s.
You are not really addressing the question. Who decides which claims of rights are really rights? What is to prevent those who make that determination from reversing themselves?
I addressed the question you asked. Now you ask two different questions: who decides? and what prevents errors? Who decides is a problem whether you believe rights come from some “natural moral law” or not. You have already said that slavery is obviously wrong, and yet Federal and State Courts founded on “natural moral law” still upheld it; it took a War to get rid of it. Who decides? The Courts do, who else? What prevents errors? Only the requirement that the Courts explain their decisions, that the Courts be insulated from corrupting influences to the extent that it can be. Both these problems exist whether you accept or reject the primacy of some “natural moral law”.
Not everyone agrees. For Justice Clarence Thomas, it [The Declaration of Independence] does have legal standing, as it does for a number of legal scholars. Moreover, it does have a legal standard insofar as it provides the only possible standard for distinguishing a just law from an unjust law. So you claim of fact isn’t really a fact.
There are many opinions about many things. Appellate courts can use anything they want as “persuasive authorities”; they can use Mark Twain’s stories, or Emerson’s poetry, or the Declaration. But neither Mark Twain’s stories, or Emerson’s poetry or the Declaration have standing as Law, which is the fact I stated.
To say that God grants rights is not an establishment of religion. It is a statement about the source of rights. It’s really kind of important to know the difference.
To say that God does anything is religious; the First Amendment does not just ban establishment of religion, it bans all laws “respecting an establishment of religion”. This means no law can even be a first, tentative step TOWARD establishment of religion. Further, there are differences of opinion regarding whether there even is a god, much less what that god’s role might be; these are RELIGIOUS differences, and the State cannot pass laws taking sides in those disputes.
In effect, you are saying that the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional, which is pure lunacy.
The Declaration of Independence is a PRE-constitutional political statement. It is years older than the Constitution, and it is NOT a law. So the lunacy is yours. The First Amendment says “no law”; it does not say “no political statement”.
All you have to do is consult Wikipedia to learn that the natural law is not “thoroughly religious” Otherwise Aristotle would not have taught it as an objective fact independent of religion.
Here is your logic: [1] Acorns are nuts. [2] Oak trees grow from acorns. By your logic, that means that [3] Oak trees are nuts. Ah, no. What “natural moral law” IS now is different from WHERE IT CAME FROM. It is NOW, in practice if not in fact, thoroughly religious. If it assumes a deity is the source of moral law, that OF ITSELF, makes the “natural moral law” religious.
Question unanswered again. The Declaration of Independence is a statement that expresses why men deserve to be free, namely because natural rights flow from the natural moral law. You may not like it, but those are the facts.
Question answered, you just don’t agree. That the Declaration borrows ideas from a source does not make it part of that source.
Question unanswered, as usual. Clearly, you have no idea where rights come from and you have no idea how they could be inalienable.
Question answered, as usual you just don’t agree. You predicated the question about inalienable rights on my saying that rights come from the state:
If there [sic] source is the state, how can they be inalienable?
Since I don’t think rights come from the state (and I was clear about where I think they come from) then I don’t need to answer that question. If you want me to weigh in on that, ASK THE QUESTION!
And, as we discovered, you have no standard for knowing the difference between a just law and an unjust law.
I do, you just don’t like my answer. Andre @172:
Where exactly in your mind does liberty, freedom and human rights come from?
Natural rights properly come from nature, reason, history, and the facts of human sociology and psychology.
Do you think its the state?
No. The role of the State is to recognize and protect our rights.
What is the standard you are defending?
That natural rights properly come from nature, reason, history, and the facts of human sociology and psychology; and the role of the State is to recognize and protect our rights.
I’m curious how you can advocate these rights but have no ultimate source for them?
I have ultimate sources: Nature, reason, history, the facts of human sociology and psychology. If you’ve been reading this thread, you know that I’ve shown that using God as an “ultimate source” solves nothing and violates Religious Liberty. Zachriel @173:
Slavery was built into the original Republic of Texas constitution.
In deed. One of the “outrages” that lead to the rebellion against Mexico is that Mexico committed the tyrannical act of banning slavery. sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2015
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StephenB: Later, when they decided to leave, they reversed course No. Slavery was built into the original Republic of Texas constitution.Zachriel
July 10, 2015
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Sean Where exactly in your mind does liberty, freedom and human rights come from? Do you think its the state? What is the standard you are defending? I'm curious how you can advocate these rights but have no ultimate source for them?Andre
July 9, 2015
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