Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Gay marriage and the loss of civility

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In the wake of the recent Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage, Professor Jerry Coyne has authored a post in which he offers his thoughts on the ruling. In a telling passage which is remarkable for its myopia, he writes:

To those who oppose gay marriage, I say this: Is it really hurting you? What does an opponent have to lose if two homosexuals get married? I suppose they could say it could lead to the dissolution of society, but that’s clearly not the case.

Is it really hurting us? Yes, and for a very simple reason: from now on, those who oppose the Supreme Court’s decision will be branded as hateful bigots who are morally on a par with members of the Ku Klux Klan, despite the fact that most American blacks say gay rights are not the same as civil rights, and despite the fact that the Reverend Martin Luther King, America’s foremost civil rights activist, described the homosexual lifestyle as a “problem” in need of a “solution” – a “habit” stemming from a series of negative “experiences and circumstances.”

A Canadian commenter named Timocrates explains how bad things are going to get in America, in a response to philosopher Ed Feser’s brilliantly written blog article, Marriage and the Matrix (June 29, 2015):

Well, coming from Canada, let me warn my American friends about what you are soon going to be facing for anything remotely like denial of legitimacy or anything short of outright approval of homosexuality and all sexual deviance.

1. Social ostracism:
– In your workplace, where you are likely to be fired and not hired at all if you are known to have “controversial” views on homosexuality;
– You family. Friends stick out much longer than they will, but even they will become much, much more quiet and reserved and increasingly hesitant to help you.

2. Social madness and increased degeneracy:
– Polite social parties may well include the suggestion, nonchalantly, to consider throwing on some porn for entertainment;
– Men in women’s bathrooms in gyms, and they kick the people who try to intervene or complain about it out of the gym
– Endless sensitivity training in the workplace so everybody knows what they are and are not allowed to say or suggest to ensure a ‘safe and comfortable’ working environment ‘for everybody’

3. School torture
– Kids will begin learning about sex and how two moms and two dads are a normal kind of family as early as 6
– Sex-ed will begin as early as Grade 6, including descriptions of oral sex
– Any child who at any time identifies with any sex will be accommodated, whether bathroom or locker room

And the final stage that is now happening in Canada, the Trannies.

Transgender people will increasingly agitate that society, government, institutions and businesses facilitate their lies. They will agitate that dating sites and services simply portray them as their chosen sex without any warning to normal, unsuspecting users of services.

That last line is arguably the scariest for single people, especially single young men. We all know how a man is likely to respond after finding out she isn’t actually a she at all – and with gender change surgeries now, this may come later.

And here’s an excerpt from a poignant article on Patheos by Rebecca Hamilton, an 18-year member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, titled, Gay Marriage Sets Friend Against Friend, Brother Against Brother (July 3, 2015):

I’m going to share my own experiences in trying to deal with the question of saving relationships in the face of gay marriage and abortion. I don’t have a magic bullet to offer. What I bring instead is a hard reality.

Here’s what I’ve learned in my own life about the question of keeping your gay friends and following Christ: You can’t do it. They won’t let you. And that’s it.

The deepest personal wounds I’ve suffered since I became a Christian have to do with gay friends that I loved and trusted with all my heart. Two of my gay friends turned on me in a sudden, absolute and public way.

One of them, in particular, I loved with all my heart. He was — and is — as dear to me as my own blood. We shared so many good things through the years. I trusted him and cherished him.

I never once tried to change him or argued with him about these differences in our beliefs. In fact, I tried to avoid talking to him about it altogether. When he realized that I did not support gay marriage, he flew into a rage and … well … it was a horrible experience.

Among other things, he accused me of lying to him because I hadn’t been more up front on the issue.
Then, he went on the internet and publicly attacked me.

The other friend turned on me over abortion. I know, gay men and the abortion industry seem to be bizarre allies, but the gay men I’ve known are pro abortion fanatics. In fact, a good many gay men work for Planned Parenthood.

I do not have one encouraging word to share with those of you who want to keep your relationships with gay people and still follow the Church. My experience is that, no matter how you try, you cannot keep your relationships with your gay friends and follow your faith. They will not let you.

Even sadder, my experience is that they do not just end the friendship. They then go out and do everything they can to hurt you.

I can honestly say that I have not retaliated. I have never broken the confidences they shared with me. I have never attacked them. I have never tried to hurt them. And I never will.

Representative Hamilton adds:

I know one homosexual person who has been willing to accept me as an individual and at least be professional friends with me. When I told her I opposed gay marriage, she said, “I would never try to force you to violate your personal morality.”

I was so grateful to her I almost cried.

But she is unique in my experience. And, as I said, we have a professional friendship, not a deep personal friendship.

Finally, in a recent article on RealClearReligion titled, Beware of the Gaystapo (July 6, 2015), Catholic author Mark Judge equates the treatment of Christians by the gay rights movement to a form of emotional abuse:

Christian America is being emotionally abused by the gay rights movement.

Emotional abuse is a sinister human reality, arguably more iniquitous in its slow-drip subtlety than outright physical abuse or political aggression. In emotional abuse a partner … is lured in by love and affection, only to have their spouse or significant other exert more and more psychological and spiritual control, then curdling into abuse. The abuser might start as a loving person with a slight edge of sarcasm, but over time they methodically pick apart the self-esteem of their partner. The occasional cutting quip becomes a steady stream of put-downs. Nothing the abused person can do is enough.

Eventually there is an atmosphere of chaos and unpredictability. Victims often have emotional breakdowns…

In his article, Judge chronicles the events leading up to this abuse:

In the beginning, advocates for gay marriage assured us that they loved America. The country wasn’t perfect, but mostly what gay activists wanted was the ability to express love without violent reprisal. They didn’t want to control the rest of us, or dictate terms or tell us what to believe. No one would lose their job or business because of gay marriage…

For a few years things went well. Gay people got to live more openly. There were more homosexual characters on television and in politics. States were debating gay marriage.

But then something changed. Liberals didn’t just accept civil unions, they demanded gay marriage — or else.

Anyone who didn’t only accept gay marriage but celebrate it was isolated as a hateful bigot. Bullying and gas-lighting of resisters became common. Gay marriage advocates ignored or denied that they had ever argued that no one would lose their job if gay marriage was passed… Like an abuser who refuses to ever acknowledge wrong doing, preferring to turn the tables on the abused, gay marriage advocates now refuse to answer the most simple questions. To ask “What is marriage?” is to be emotionally blackmailed (shame!), isolated (go back to the 1950s!) and bullied (damn right, you’ll lose your business).

Judge’s last question, “What is marriage?” gets right to the heart of the matter. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court majority, in their recent ruling (Obergefell vs. Hodges), nowhere attempted to provide a clear definition of the term “marriage.” Instead, we were told that the meaning of marriage has evolved over time, despite documents cited by dissenting Chief Justice John Roberts, showing that the term “marriage” has been understood for centuries to mean: the lifelong union of a man and a woman.

Much play has been made in the media of Elena Kagan’s facile argument that if marriage were really about procreation, as traditionalists supposedly hold, then there should be laws on the books prohibiting elderly couples from typing the knot, as there is no chance that they will procreate. But the argument overlooks two very important points.

First, what defines marriage is not procreation , but its essentially monogamous character: it is a union of one man and one woman, for life. (There have of course been societies which tolerated polygamy, but the practice invariably results in the exploitation of women. What’s more, even in societies where the practice is allowed, it is relatively uncommon: the vast majority of men have one wife.) Now, there are heterosexual couples who have what they call “open marriages,” these are relatively uncommon, and even today in America, 90% of people still regard adultery as morally wrong. However, the great majority of gay “marriages” are not sexually monogamous: they are open relationships. And even if there are some gay couples practicing monogamy, I know of no gay couple who are willing to declare that open relationships between gays (or straight people, for that matter) are not real marriages. For this reason alone, then, a strong case can be made on legal grounds for refusing to recognize gay marriage: doing so would inevitably force people to publicly sanction relationships in which sexual monogamy is no longer even recognized as an ideal. That would in turn mean that schoolchildren are no longer taught that married people should be faithful to one another until death do them part.

Second, even if it is not the case that every marriage is potentially procreative, it is certainly true that the institution of marriage would not exist, were it not for the fact that humans procreate sexually. In a hypothetical world where intelligent life-forms reproduced asexually, there would be no marriage, since there would be no need for it. Why, then, do we allow elderly couples to wed? Simple enough: because the bond between them is of the same sort as that existing between couples who wed when they were young, had children, and have now grown old. In both cases, the couples in question physically express their love in exactly the same way, and under the same conditions: they promise to be faithful to each other until death do them part. Gay marriage does not even get a foot in the door here: the physical expression of their love is quite different, and there is usually no intention to remain sexually monogamous.

In his recent post, Professor Coyne argues that people who oppose gay marriage must do so because they regard it as un-Biblical and/or unnatural. But the argument I put forward in the foregoing paragraphs made no mention of the Bible or of natural law. All it assumed was that marriage is essentially monogamous – a sentiment still upheld by the vast majority of Americans.

But I can safely bet that gay rights advocates in America will make no attempt to respond to arguments like the one I have put forward above, in civil terms. Ridicule, scorn and abuse are weapons which suit their cause better, and no attempt must be spared to make their opponents look absurd. If Professor Coyne wants to know how the legalization of gay marriage has hurt ordinary people who oppose it, I can sum it up in one sentence: thoughtful public discussions of the pros and cons of gay marriage will no longer be possible, because one side has been demonized.

What do readers think?

Comments
SB: If gays have a constitutional right to marry, do other citizens have the constitutional right to marry their mothers, daughters, and horses? If not, why not? sean samis
No right is absolute. Gays and lesbians have a right to marry because their marriages do no harm to others; because there is no rational, legitimate purpose to preventing their marriages.
How do you know that they do no harm to others? Not everyone agrees with you. Some say that it does harm by requiring others to accept the homosexual lifestyle and by encouraging the state to punish those who believe differently. Why should your opinion about harm be given preference over their opinion? Clearly, the notion of "harm" cannot possibly serve as a standard for justice.
Likewise, we’d need to determine if the kinds of marriages you list are reasonably likely to give rise to harms. Marriage is a right, which means choosing not to marry is a valid exercise of that right, and circumstances that put the voluntariness of the marriage in doubt are suspicious. Children marrying parents is one of those cases; it is reasonable to suspect that such marriages might involve improper influence of one person (the parent) over the other (the child)
. Question not really answered. Do you have constitutional right to marry your mother, assuming she has free choice? If not, why not? [b] If the state can grant rights, what is to prevent it from taking them away?
States don’t grant rights, States recognize rights. What is to prevent a State from erroneously failing to recognize a right? Whatever that is, the risk is not mitigated by appeals to some other source of rights.
You are not really addressing the question. Who decides which claims of rights are really rights? What is to prevent those who make that determination from reversing themselves? [c] Why do you ignore the clear language in the Declaration of Independence, which explicitly states that God grants rights?
I do not ignore the Declaration, but it has no legal standing as a Law.
Not everyone agrees. For Justice Clarence Thomas, it does have legal standing, as it does for a number of legal scholars. Moreover, it does have a legal standard insofar as it provides the only possible standard for distinguishing a just law from an unjust law. So you claim of fact isn’t really a fact.
The Framers of the Constitution gave us the First Amendment which prohibits the State from any law respecting the establishment of religion, so the State cannot treat rights as coming from some religion’s concept of a god; Religious Liberty bars it
To say that God grants rights is not an establishment of religion. It is a statement about the source of rights. It's really kind of important to know the difference. In effect, you are saying that the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional, which is pure lunacy. [d] The natural moral law is totally distinct from religion. It is based solely on man’s capacity to reason and apprehend the morality of human nature. Why would you falsely claim that it is a “religious construct?”
This is a stupidly worded question. It is quite clear from its history and use that the so-called “natural moral law” is thoroughly religious, and has always been so. In ancient times this was understandable; when humans knew less about the natural world, the necessity of deities seemed reasonable. We know more now. We don’t need deities any more to understand how nature informs morality.
All you have to do is consult Wikipedia to learn that the natural law is not “thoroughly religious" Otherwise Aristotle would not have taught it as an objective fact independent of religion. [e] You said that the natural moral law is “merely religious prohibitions disguised as appeals to nature.” Are you now claiming that the Declaration of Independence is a religious document disguised as an appeal to nature?
Since the Declaration is not a part of the “natural moral law”, the attributes of one do not hold for the other, and vice-versa. The Declaration borrows from “natural law” but it is not itself “natural law”
Question unanswered again. The Declaration of Independence is a statement that expresses why men deserve to be free, namely because natural rights flow from the natural moral law. You may not like it, but those are the facts. [g] If natural rights do not come from God, what is their source? If there source is the state, how can they be inalienable?
Natural rights properly come from nature, reason, history, and the facts of human sociology and psychology. The role of the State is to recognize and protect our rights. Given the text of your question, I can ignore the matter of being inalienable or not.
Question unanswered, as usual. Clearly, you have no idea where rights come from and you have no idea how they could be inalienable. And, as we discovered, you have no standard for knowing the difference between a just law and an unjust law.StephenB
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
07:42 PM
7
07
42
PM
PDT
@168 Thanks Sean. I am curious why the author of this thread hasn't returned to defend his post. I'd like to see a response to my criticism at 3.REC
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
07:41 PM
7
07
41
PM
PDT
Scott v. State, (1869), 39 Ga. 321, 324: "The amalgamation of the races is not only unnatural, but is always productive of deplorable results. Our daily observation shows us, that the offspring of these unnatural connections are generally sickly and effeminate, and that they are inferior in physical development and strength, to the full blood of either race. Bradwell v. Illinois (denied an otherwise qualified woman the right to practice law) "nature herself, has always recognized a wide difference in the respective spheres and destinies of man and woman. Man is, or should be, woman's protector and defender. The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life."REC
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
07:38 PM
7
07
38
PM
PDT
REC @167 Well written. Isn’t it interesting how far we’ve wandered from the original topic? sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
07:31 PM
7
07
31
PM
PDT
StephenB, Regarding TX: "That is when they came up with the nonsense about a “Divine Law” to justify slavery" is incorrect. Texas's secessionists state: "the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color–a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law.” Against nature and experience AND Divine Law. "In case after case, legislation prohibiting racial inter-marriage was justified as unbending tradition rooting in received natural law." Lewis et al., v. Harris, et al. New Jersey Superior Court I could go on, but you have google. The weak part of natural law is that ALL you have to say is that someone-blacks, women, gays have an apparently different nature, and there you have it.... What does invoking "natural law" in this case then mean other that you don't like homosexuality and would prefer same sex marriage remain persecuted? So why do you even use the term natural law? It gives you a chance to elevate your prejudice to a metaphysical level where you think no one will will dare to criticize or even think about it. It gives it an noble air. But slavers and segregationists and the Nazis did the same. It does also reek of religion, where "Natural Law" has replaced "God's Law" and indeed, they are often linked together.REC
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
07:26 PM
7
07
26
PM
PDT
REC @164, The DOI's unchanging Natural Law, which is known by reason, is not synonymous with differing interpretations of Divine Law, which often depend on whimsical claims about Biblical revelation. Even Texas subscribed to the principles in the US Declaration of Independence, as reflected in the Constitution of the Republic of Texas (1836), which reads, "All men have equal rights." That is the natural moral law. Later, when they decided to leave, they reversed course and said, "all white men are equal." That is when they came up with the nonsense about a "Divine Law" to justify slavery. The take home lesson is that natural law is not synonymous with Divine Law. Meanwhile, my questions @163 for sean persist. Would you care to have a go at them?StephenB
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
06:19 PM
6
06
19
PM
PDT
StephenB @163:
Here are just a few of the questions that you have ignored, either directly or indirectly,: [a] If gays have a constitutional right to marry, do other citizens have the constitutional right to marry their mothers, daughters, and horses? If not, why not?
No right is absolute. Gays and lesbians have a right to marry because their marriages do no harm to others; because there is no rational, legitimate purpose to preventing their marriages. Likewise, we’d need to determine if the kinds of marriages you list are reasonably likely to give rise to harms. Marriage is a right, which means choosing not to marry is a valid exercise of that right, and circumstances that put the voluntariness of the marriage in doubt are suspicious. Children marrying parents is one of those cases; it is reasonable to suspect that such marriages might involve improper influence of one person (the parent) over the other (the child). Likewise, how can a horse demonstrate that it is aware of what being married means, aware of its rights within a marriage, and so forth? Does the horse really want to marry, or is it just a prop for the vexatious human? Given that horses cannot easily demonstrate such knowing, voluntary consent, their marriages are foreclosed. If you can produce a horse interested in marrying you and capable of testifying to that fact; you have a different situation. Until then, no.
[b] If the state can grant rights, what is to prevent it from taking them away?
States don’t grant rights, States recognize rights. What is to prevent a State from erroneously failing to recognize a right? Whatever that is, the risk is not mitigated by appeals to some other source of rights.
[c] Why do you ignore the clear language in the Declaration of Independence, which explicitly states that God grants rights?
I do not ignore the Declaration, but it has no legal standing as a Law. The writers of the Declaration stated what they believed at the time. If it turns out that there is no deity, or that there are better bases for rights, that does not diminish the stature of the Declaration. The Framers of the Constitution gave us the First Amendment which prohibits the State from any law respecting the establishment of religion, so the State cannot treat rights as coming from some religion’s concept of a god; Religious Liberty bars it.
[d] The natural moral law is totally distinct from religion. It is based solely on man’s capacity to reason and apprehend the morality of human nature. Why would you falsely claim that it is a “religious construct?”
This is a stupidly worded question. It is quite clear from its history and use that the so-called “natural moral law” is thoroughly religious, and has always been so. In ancient times this was understandable; when humans knew less about the natural world, the necessity of deities seemed reasonable. We know more now. We don’t need deities any more to understand how nature informs morality.
[e] You said that the natural moral law is “merely religious prohibitions disguised as appeals to nature.” Are you now claiming that the Declaration of Independence is a religious document disguised as an appeal to nature?
Since the Declaration is not a part of the “natural moral law”, the attributes of one do not hold for the other, and vice-versa. The Declaration borrows from “natural law” but it is not itself “natural law”.
[f] You appear to be totally confused about the substance of natural law arguments. Do you understand the difference between the epistemology of apprehending the natural moral law without appealing to religious faith and the ontological claim that the Natural Moral Law logically requires a lawgiver. If so, why do you continue to conflate them?
If I conflate them it is because appeals to the “natural moral law” tend to conflate them. If you and others distinguish them, so will I.
[g] If natural rights do not come from God, what is their source? If there source is the state, how can they be inalienable?
Natural rights properly come from nature, reason, history, and the facts of human sociology and psychology. The role of the State is to recognize and protect our rights. Given the text of your question, I can ignore the matter of being inalienable or not. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
05:39 PM
5
05
39
PM
PDT
StephenB, You know the Declaration of Independence has no more influence on US law than, say, the Texas articles of succession which clearly state slavery and white superiority are both God-given and part of the natural order?REC
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
03:23 PM
3
03
23
PM
PDT
sean samis
The debate is about human rights. This is why your side lost, you’re telling us that some people have fewer rights because the dictionary says so, we are talking about human rights.
It is easy to make claims of that sort, but it is not so easy to provide a rational justification for your position. That may be why you have been so evasive. Here are just a few of the questions that you have ignored, either directly or indirectly,: (I will keep it brief) [a] If gays have a constitutional right to marry, do other citizens have the constitutional right to marry their mothers, daughters, and horses? If not, why not? [b] If the state can grant rights, what is to prevent it from taking them away? [c] Why do you ignore the clear language in the Declaration of Independence, which explicitly states that God grants rights? [d] The natural moral law is totally distinct from religion. It is based solely on man’s capacity to reason and apprehend the morality of human nature. Why would you falsely claim that it is a “religious construct?” [e] You said that the natural moral law is “merely religious prohibitions disguised as appeals to nature." Are you now claiming that the Declaration of Independence is a religious document disguised as an appeal to nature? [f] You appear to be totally confused about the substance of natural law arguments. Do you understand the difference between the epistemology of apprehending the natural moral law without appealing to religious faith and the ontological claim that the Natural Moral Law logically requires a lawgiver. If so, why do you continue to conflate them? [g] If natural rights do not come from God, what is their source? If there source is the state, how can they be inalienable?StephenB
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
anthropic #28 'I have relatives with a son who has gone into the homosexual lifestyle. It’s been rough for them, but they have made great efforts to show him love and to reassure him that he is still part of the family. That’s not enough, though. As he told them, “I don’t want you to love me despite me being gay, I want you to love me BECAUSE I’m gay!”' It seems very reminiscent of the syndrome which I believe psychiatrists today call, 'the Little Emperor syndrome', i.e. that of the normal baby: infinitely imperious and demanding (who knows what?), but bellowing its heart out. 'Whatever I want, I want now! I want it! I want it! I want it! And I want it this instant! A little monster of uncomprehending, declamatory esurience.Axel
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
#65 KF As regards 'My Genes Made Me Do it', KF, I've long been convinced there is a Nobel Prize awaiting the person who identifies the gene that has prompted some male dogs - I'm sure very kindly disposed towards me - to try to copulate with one of my legs.Axel
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
01:48 PM
1
01
48
PM
PDT
jw777 @159:
Again, I’ll go back to my original question which has completely flown over most people’s heads. Why does the secular state have any interest in promoting marriage, let alone between delusional deviants?
And again we’ll give you the answer that keeps flying over your head: legal recognition of same-sex marriage is not about promoting it; it’s about allowing same-sex couples to govern their own lives as they see fit just like different-sex couples, inter-faith couples, and inter-racial couples. Obergefell does not promote same-sex marriage, it merely removes barriers to it. The main delusion being promoted is the delusional thought that sexual orientation only comes in one natural form. Nature says otherwise. Another delusion being promoted is the delusion that marriage is all about procreation. It is not, it has not been so for many, many years. There is much more to marriage than procreation; procreation does not even make it to the top of the list.
Everyone keeps changing the subject to morality and civil rights and the like.
This is because it is a civil rights issue. Religious Liberty and Equality before the law are civil rights issues. Many people think it is also a moral issue. To the extent that protecting human rights is a moral issue they are right.
The secular state has no interest in gay marriage ...
Likewise, the secular state has no interest in obstructing same-sex marriage. The rest of that paragraph (and most of the others) was a muddle of truths and falsehoods, I have no interest in straightening it all out. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
Vc @ 158: Agreed. All friends and family should have visitation rights, or decision making rights if previously consented to by the affected person. I once attended an insurance enrollment presentation during which a presenter gave us an illustration of "people who take advantage of the policies" by lying about being married or even lying about still being married after their divorce. In particular she was bringing up a specific example where the ex wife had a fairly serious medical condition. Her ex husband was trying to keep her alive by not alerting the provider of their divorce for quite a while. Out loud I said, "yeah, those terrible snakes in the grass who want to save the lives of someone they know." My sarcasm was lost on these people. They genuinely thought it was "wrong" for someone to have access to life saving treatment because it pulled money out of the pool. We should've had universal health care 80 years ago, which would've also prevented part of this debacle. But the real snakes who've turned medicine into a business rather than a public service are unaffected no matter how this goes. Unfortunately, gay marriage is just another distraction and the reality is that we are all still getting railroaded. A secular state should be out of the business of marriage altogether. Adding gays to the roster does not fundamentally change the things that needed to change. We have some of the most expensive and least effective therapies in the world and no good science around chronic conditions. People think that gay marriage was some sort of win against these things. It's just an oligarchic appeasement to public emotion so that we don't pay attention to the actual needed change. Gay marriage is not equal to heterosexual marriage, but frankly, people are perhaps too dumb to understand this. Again, I'll go back to my original question which has completely flown over most people's heads. Why does the secular state have any interest in promoting marriage, let alone between delusional deviants? Everyone keeps changing the subject to morality and civil rights and the like. I never said anything about telling people who they live with, have sex with, etc. I have no issue with people living out their lives as they see fit as long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else. Promoting delusion is part of a deeper philosophical artifice. People much smarter than you hold disproportionate sums of wealth and power. They allowed this to happen, as they do any policy change, to carry out their broader goals of monopoly. Don't think for a second this was not part of a bigger play to keep our eyes off the ball. As already pointed out by several contributors, oligarchs have misused Bible passages to perpetuate cheap labor. Why do you think they're beyond using appeals to equality and civil rights to do the same? Why do you think you are beyond having your own ideals parroted by oligarchs so that they can manipulate you into cheapening your labor? Our only protection is clear thinking where we let empirical fact trump the non-empirical. Lofty metaphysical platitudes are great for individual motivation. They hold NO place in the policy discussion for a secular state. The secular state has no interest in gay marriage if we think of the state as a very broad collective. If, instead, the state is a small handful of people, then the answer is obvious: anything, including gay marriage, is in the interest of the state as long as it obscures roles and thinking. The greatest growth in economical leverage the American people ever enjoyed was during the defining of traditional marriage between 1950 and 1980. One person could work 35-45 hours per week and provide for an entire household. Over that thirty years real wages went up for nearly all workers. We are now slaves, with two people working over 60 hours each and making less real income versus the cost of living than 50 years ago. Are there no free thinkers on here? Who has the most to gain with gay marriage? It isn't gays. It isn't religious or anti religious. It is people who are successfully continuing to consolidate all of our work into their wealth.jw777
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
12:04 PM
12
12
04
PM
PDT
The sad part is the bulk of the issue is that companies extend insurance coverage to an employee's family- spouse and children- but refused to do so for same-sex couples. And same-sex couples needed that coverage as their partner(s) were most likely very ill and couldn't get insurance nor medical attention. That is where the Supreme Court should have ruled and we wouldn't be having this discussion. BTW driving is a privilege, not a right. And understanding who has a "right of way" is part of that privilege. Those who don't get it lose that privilege.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
10:15 AM
10
10
15
AM
PDT
Stephen: There is no right to gay marriage in the constitution, just as their is no right to marry your mother or to marry your daughter, or to marry your horse. And no right to different sex marriage in the federal constitution either, the state controls the statutory marriage laws, of course the supremacy clause pertains. Now if a majority of Texans approved of legal horse marriage ... The constitution does not guarantee the legitimization of every perverse desire. Of course, that does not stop judicial tyrants from saying so. Of course not. Not a fan of democracy? That’s not the way it works. Your right to a free college education takes away my right to keep some of my income. You have the same right to that education ,just as everyone has the same obligation to pay for the society they freely choose to live in.You can always go Galt if you find the arrangement too burdensome. You can't lose a right that you don't have to begin with. Your right to not be offended takes away my right to free speech There is no right not to be offended per se. Every right takes away some other right. The only way that is true is if you believe you have the right to deny others the rights you enjoy.You don't. No, that is incorrect. You do not have the same exact right as the other driver, which is the right to go first. No that is incorrect, you want the right to go first no matter what, neither driver has that right . You are deprived of the abilty to take away the other driver's rights per an objective law , that is not a right you ever possessed to lose.velikovskys
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
09:57 AM
9
09
57
AM
PDT
A busy night on this thread, here is a reply to several comments. StephenB @107:
[The definition of marriage] is precisely what the debate is about. One side says [a] marriage means what those who who first defined it (and who explained why it benefits society) say it means, and the other side says, [b] no, it means whatever I want it to mean–except for the fact that I can’t define it. The second formulation is irrational.
The debate is about human rights. This is why your side lost, you’re telling us that some people have fewer rights because the dictionary says so, we are talking about human rights. Your point [a] basically claims that marriage belongs to Christians to define. That is just plain wrong. Your mischaracterization in [b] shows just how little you’ve been paying attention to what your opponents have been SUCCESSFULLY arguing. StephenB @111:
Any right granted to one group always takes away a right from another group. The latest Supreme Court decision, for example, gives primacy of the state over the family.
A mischaracterization, the Obergefell holding just recognizes the human rights of same-sex couples; nothing more. No one lost any right. StephenB @116:
If the state can grant rights, then the state can take them away. That means that there are no longer any inalienable rights, including the right to free speech or the right to religious expression. To grant one group a right always means taking away a right from another group.
Pure hysterics. You’re having a panic-attack.
If, on the other hand, God grants rights, then we get to keep them no matter what the state says. Both the government and the people are morally obliged to follow the natural moral law and to establish civil laws on that basis. It is the only basis upon which one can differentiate a just law from an unjust law.
Religious Liberty makes this unconstitutional. jw777 @118:
Does transgenderism exist on a deserted island? No.
Yes, it would, if there was one transgender person on the island, even if they were the only person on that island.
We can extend this to the bunker scenario test...
Your hypo doesn’t matter because we don’t live in that hypo. It is intentionally extreme and so only might guide us in extreme circumstances, not in our ordinary times. jw777 @120 Regarding your views on reproduction and biology, they are irrelevant because marriage decoupled from procreation centuries ago. When you find yourself talking about reproduction or biology, you have changed to some other topic; this thread is supposed to be about same-sex marriage and civility. jw777 @124:
I think it will come as no surprise to anyone that civil rights are a predominantly religious concept. The abolition of slavery owes thanks to no one except crazed religious zealots.
False history. Many Christians used their Bible to justify slavery.
We are better off establishing and maintaining a certain quota of norms, ...
Equal Protection of the Law and Religious Liberty are part of the “norms” we have created, and these two forbid banning same-sex marriage. jw777 @128:
Why is conflict resolution preferable to conflict? ...
Even a totally secular state has an interest in peaceful resolution of conflict. You don’t need a god for that.
...people can’t even help themselves quote nearly verbatim from sermons and Biblical versus in order to make any argument, ...
Borrowing ideas and language from the Bible does not mean the Bible is the source of all truth. There’s a great deal of chaff, but still some valuable kernels. The same can be said about the Quran or the Vedas or Taoist texts or Lakota teachings.
You keep using very Western Christian appeals to treatment of the individual. Those are not secular, friend. Stick to empirical data. Stick to biology. Your tune will change if you make an earnest effort toward consistency,
When you demonstrate this behavior, then you can tell others to do so. StephenB @133:
Well, the US did just that. It arrogated unto itself the power to revise the definition of marriage, a power not granted to it by the Constitution. There is no rational justification for it.
We’ve been over this repeatedly. SCOTUS did not revise the meaning of marriage, it recognized marriage as a Right, and determined that it is a Right that same-sex couples are entitled to participate in just like different-sex couples, inter-racial couples, and inter-faith couples. Religious Liberty and Equal Protection require this outcome.
No “right” was granted in Loving vs Va. An unconstitutional law was overturned.
Exactly what happened in Obergefell. No new right was created or granted; an unconstitutional law was overturned.
Name a specific right that was ever granted to one group or individual and I will show you which right was taken away from another group or individual. There is no such thing as a one way right. If you have the right of way at a stop sign, I automatically lose that same right. A right is always a zero sum gain.
Religious Liberty Equal protection of the law Freedom of speech Freedom of the press Right to peaceably assemble Right to petition the government
What is it about the Natural Moral Law that you find so mysterious?
There is no distinction between “Natural Moral Law” and Religion. Religious Liberty makes secular application of “Natural Moral Law” unconstitutional.
Everyone knows (and knew) that slavery (chattel slavery, not indentured servitude) violates the Natural Moral Law. ...
This is historical revisionism. Jefferson might have agreed with you, but the vast majority did not agree with him. Their own words prove this.
Indeed, you also know that slavery violates the natural moral law.
And we all know that there were those who though it was a morally justified institution. Their own words prove this. goodusername @140:
It’s amazing how many Biblical teachings have taken almost 2 millenia for Christians to discover.
Amen! StephenB @148:
[The Lovings] were not granted any rights by the Supreme Court. The right to marry is a “natural right: bestowed by God. Only God can grant an inalienable right. The Supreme Court simply restored something that the state presumed to withdraw.
That’s all fine, but again, that’s what the Court did in Obergefell; it restored rights that the State presumed to withdraw; the rights of Religious Liberty, Equality before the Law, and Marriage.
Whenever the state presumes to grant a right to anyone, someone else will always lose a right. Again, I invite you to find an exception to that rule.
Religious Liberty Equal protection of the law Freedom of speech Freedom of the press Right to peaceably assemble Right to petition the government
Natural rights are a product of natural law. If there is no natural law, then there can be no natural rights—only state sponsored rights, which as indicated, can also be taken away.
Natural Law is not the only source of natural rights. Reason can supply those without reference to any god. There’s nothing new here.
I have already explained that I oppose judicial tyranny and also that judicial tyranny does not always or necessarily decide wrongly. ... The point is, and always has been, very simple. The state cannot grant basic rights. The state is in the business of protecting basic rights, not granting them.
Obergefell was a properly decided case; it protected basic rights. It is not an example of “judicial tyranny”.
Since natural law forbids homosexual marriage, there can be no natural right to homosexual marriage.
Natural law is a religious construct, so its prohibitions are merely religious prohibitions disguised as appeals to nature. This are forbidden to the States to enforce by the First Amendment. There is nothing in Nature that forbids same-sex marriage. Nothing.
The” natural law” is known by reason.
... but that reasoning is enslaved to religion. If Reason is allowed free reign, it rejects most of what passes for “Natural Law” as being unsupported by nature or reason.
I didn’t say that everyone always and immediately knows that interracial marriage is wrong, which requires a more consistent application of reason. The natural moral law is inseparable from reason, which means that if you refuse to use your reason, it will escape you. Still, anyone who really thinks about it, without allowing their biases and prejudices to interfere, can grasp even is more subtle aspects.
“Natural Law” requires religious biases and prejudices; without them it disintegrates. Apart from religious beliefs, nature and reason have no objection to same-sex marriage.
Later in his life, Falwell confessed that his “cultural context” (Fundamentalist upbringing) formed his formerly racist attitudes, which he repudiated.
Someday, religious conservatives will “regret” their opposition to same-sex marriage in a similar manner. StephenB @151:
The constitution does not guarantee the legitimization of every perverse desire.
Homosexuality is not a “perverse desire”, no more than heterosexuality is. You use the term “judicial tyranny” whenever you see a ruling you don’t like.
That’s not the way it works. Your right to a free college education takes away my right to keep some of my income. Your right to not be offended takes away my right to free speech. Every right takes away some other right. There are no exceptions. It is the nature of a right.
Your examples of zero-sum rights are not even rights. Here (again) are some actual rights; please tell us who’s lost when these rights are protected: Religious Liberty Equal protection of the law Freedom of speech Freedom of the press Right to peaceably assemble Right to petition the government Zachriel @154:
There is no marriage under the U.S. Constitution. However, if the legislature decides to regulate marriage, then it is bound by equal protection and due process clauses.
This says it pretty well, although you can add Religious Liberty to the mix; bans on same-sex marriage are almost universally predicated on religious beliefs (which include the so-called “natural law”). Same-sex couples obviously disagree religiously, and have the right to their free exercise too. States cannot make marriage available to some but not to others without a legitimate, rational purpose. There is no legitimate, rational purpose to banning same-sex marriage. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
09:17 AM
9
09
17
AM
PDT
groovamos: And what you and your favorite teddy bear, the State, have appropriated to yourselves is a thousands of years old institution having to accommodate itself to the State and not the other way around as it has always been. You mean the institution that a man can have as many wives as he can subjugate? jw777: We can extend this to the bunker scenario test. It is peri-apocalyptic and we are making decisions about who goes into the bunker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaTR46iU1DoZachriel
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
06:11 AM
6
06
11
AM
PDT
StephenB: Irrelevant to the argument that I was refuting. We directly addressed your comment. StephenB: To argue that judicial review sometimes gets it right is not to argue that judicial review is a good thing or that it should be retained. Judicial review is the check on a government entity passing laws in contradiction to the constitution. Without judicial review, then the constitution has no meaning, and the limits of laws are the limits set by legislatures. StephenB: By definition, a marital act is always open to the transmission of life. Sodomy is not. A lot of married couples would disagree that the only "marital acts" must be "open to the transmission of life". StephenB: One side says [a] marriage means what those who who first defined it (and who explained why it benefits society) say it means You mean a wife is worth two sheep and a goat? StephenB: and the other side says, [b] no, it means whatever I want it to mean–except for the fact that I can’t define it. Under equal protection, if government is in the business of marriage, it has to be open to all couples, absent a compelling and valid public purpose. StephenB: Any right granted to one group always takes away a right from another group. Human rights are inherent. StephenB: The latest Supreme Court decision, for example, gives primacy of the state over the family. That is very harmful to me or anyone else who values his freedom. What? How does allowing gays to marry harm you? If you don't want to call it marriage, then don't. Catholics don't recognize marriage after divorce. StephenB: To use the lower digestive tract as a sex organ is to engage in a sexual act. Or the upper digestive tract. Are you going to outlaw kissing? StephenB: If the state can grant rights, then the state can take them away. Rights are inherent. The ruling was based on the Fourteenth Amendment due process and equal protection clauses which embody this fundamental principle. StephenB: No, they were not granted any rights by the Supreme Court. The right is equality before the law. StephenB: Study the Supreme Court finding very carefully. It was based on the equal protection and due process clauses of the Constitution. StephenB: I said that everyone knows that slavery is wrong. Not historically.
Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens: Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
StephenB: There is no right to gay marriage in the constitution There is no marriage under the U.S. Constitution. However, if the legislature decides to regulate marriage, then it is bound by equal protection and due process clauses.Zachriel
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
velikovskys: Actually what you lose the ability to take away the right from others. And what you and your favorite teddy bear, the State, have appropriated to yourselves is a thousands of years old institution having to accommodate itself to the State and not the other way around as it has always been. Marriage is no longer wedlock to you because of the Supreme court decision. Marriage is no longer matrimony to you. Future schoolchildren will be indoctrinated accordingly. Matrimony as a ceremonial framework for sex, procreation and child-rearing has been heavily damaged and will be killed as such in the schools. Wedlock, sealed by vows for the sake of offspring, is done with in the schools. According to your logic, it is a normal and good thing children will be asking their parents what it means for a man to marry his daughter - or son. Because according to your logic, us neanderthals have no business interfering with your right to marry an offspring, or a dog for that matter.groovamos
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
02:45 AM
2
02
45
AM
PDT
REC Do you understand that the very fact that we have the ability to override natural moral law does not mean it does not exist. It is actually evidence of our free moral agency......Andre
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
12:39 AM
12
12
39
AM
PDT
velikovskys
states cannot pass any law which deprives citizens of those rights enumerated in the Constitution, the Supreme Court found lacking any compelling state interest banning SSM violated the 14th.
There is no right to gay marriage in the constitution, just as their is no right to marry your mother or to marry your daughter, or to marry your horse. The constitution does not guarantee the legitimization of every perverse desire. Of course, that does not stop judicial tyrants from saying so. SB: Name a specific right that was ever granted to one group or individual and I will show you which right was taken away from another group or individual. There is no such thing as a one way right. If you have the right of way at a stop sign, I automatically lose that same right. A right is always a zero sum gain.
Actually what you lose the ability to take away the right from others.
That's not the way it works. Your right to a free college education takes away my right to keep some of my income. Your right to not be offended takes away my right to free speech. Every right takes away some other right. There are no exceptions. It is the nature of a right.
You have the same exact right at the stop sign as the other driver but what you don’t have is the special right to always have the right of way.
No, that is incorrect. You do not have the same exact right as the other driver, which is the right to go first.StephenB
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
12:18 AM
12
12
18
AM
PDT
I see the word love is used on this thread 25 times most of in support of gay marriage with the saying .... when two people love each other........ Can anyone give us a definition of love in a materialist framework? Love is nothing but a chemical reaction under materialism. Who can argue that this chemical reaction is not in actual fact a defect? Should we not encourage this chemical imbalance to be eradicated from society? Or God is love gives meaning to us on what love actually is, something immaterial and above, and not reducible to chemicals.Andre
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
12:07 AM
12
12
07
AM
PDT
goodusername "To make sense out of our world an atheist, implicitly, presupposes Christian theism. This is spot-on because Christianity supplies the required pre-essentials for the laws of thought. These laws are necessary for communication and for the intelligibility of human experience." http://goddoesexistuknowit.blogspot.com/2015/03/logic-grounded-by-god-vs-atheistic.html Take off that which you presuppose and then try and make sense of this world.... Good luck.Andre
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
11:44 PM
11
11
44
PM
PDT
SB: “No “right” was granted in Loving vs Va. An unconstitutional law was overturned.” REC
The Lovings, an interracial couple were not allowed to marry, jailed, and exiled from the South. Following the Supreme Court ruling, they were married and could not be prosecuted for it. They were granted their rights.
No, they were not granted any rights by the Supreme Court. The right to marry is a “natural right: bestowed by God. Only God can grant an inalienable right. The Supreme Court simply restored something that the state presumed to withdraw.
So, who lost their rights when the supreme court extended marriage rights to include interracial couples?
The state did not grant any rights. Whenever the state presumes to grant a right to anyone, someone else will always lose a right. Again, I invite you to find an exception to that rule.
Playing the semantic game, we could phrase it that a pre-existing right in the 14th amendment was extended to a couple deprived of it. But again, how is that different between the two cases?
Natural rights are a product of natural law. If there is no natural law, then there can be no natural rights—only state sponsored rights, which as indicated, can also be taken away.
You chop up my post and reply to lines of it, but there is no coherent argument. The cases are too similar (so similar, you were opposed to Loving as “judicial tyranny” before you figured out what it was).
I have already explained that I oppose judicial tyranny and also that judicial tyranny does not always or necessarily decide wrongly. Try to grasp the point. Meanwhile, it was you who began the chopping. The point is, and always has been, very simple. The state cannot grant basic rights. The state is in the business of protecting basic rights, not granting them. The right marry is basic for heterosexuals because natural law governs it. Since natural law forbids homosexual marriage, there can be no natural right to homosexual marriage. Study the Supreme Court finding very carefully. Or read the dissenting opinions. You will find no rational justification for gay marriage. They just pulled it out of thin air. If you think you can provide some rational basis for gay marriage, please feel free to disclose it. SB: “Everyone knows (and knew) that slavery (chattel slavery, not indentured servitude) violates the Natural Moral Law.”
A quote for you: “….to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color–a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law.”
Obviously, that passage violates the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence, such that “all men are created equal.”—according to the “Laws of Nature,” and “Nature’s God.” Yes, these people knew they were doing the wrong thing. It is impossible to not know that slavery is wrong. What is it about the Declaration of Independence that prompts you to avoid any discussion about it? The” natural law” is known by reason. That is why the Declaration of Independence characterize natural rights as “self evident” truths. Biblical references to “Divine Laws are something else. They are claims about supernatural revelation made by fundamentalists who interpret Scriptures to fit their own biases.
Do you think all these people–and lets throw in segregationists like Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones–were just big liars?
You are moving the target. I said that everyone knows that slavery is wrong. It obviously violates the natural moral law. I didn’t say that everyone always and immediately knows that interracial marriage is wrong, which requires a more consistent application of reason. The natural moral law is inseparable from reason, which means that if you refuse to use your reason, it will escape you. Still, anyone who really thinks about it, without allowing their biases and prejudices to interfere, can grasp even is more subtle aspects. Some people allow their Biblical fundamentalism to compromise their ability to think clearly. Later in his life, Falwell confessed that his “cultural context” (Fundamentalist upbringing) formed his formerly racist attitudes, which he repudiated. He made sure that Liberty University, which was his legacy, rose above such nonsense. He came to understand the natural moral law. Meanwhile, you are silent on my observation that you, yourself, know that chattel slavery is wrong. Do you deny it? Please address this topic.StephenB
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
goodusername..... Deny 1 all you like, self evident truth has everything to do with reality. How long have you been frequenting this site? How many time do we have to regurgitate the same things before you snap out of it and get it? When will you have your Eureka moment? Without God, rationality, reason, logic, consciousness, free will have absolutely no meaning whatsoever, you can't even give a reason for reason without God.Andre
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
11:33 PM
11
11
33
PM
PDT
Andre,
1. Everything.
uh huh
2. You have no basis for them outside theism…..
How does theism give such things a basis?goodusername
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
11:22 PM
11
11
22
PM
PDT
goodusername 1. Everything. 2. You have no basis for them outside theism..... 3. I don't really care what you think......Andre
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
11:12 PM
11
11
12
PM
PDT
Andre,
That’s not difficult to answer here we are in 2015 and most people including you still deny the authenticity of Christ.
What has my not being a Christian got to do with the American Forefathers not knowing what's in the Bible?
You deny free will, you deny human consciousness, you deny reason and you still don’t have a grasp on the concept that there is nothing in the known universe engineered like you.
I don't deny any of those things.
Are you surprised? I’m not for 34 years I believed in what you do now…….
Surprised by what? I would be surprised by your post if I hadn't read previous ones.goodusername
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
10:57 PM
10
10
57
PM
PDT
velikovskys Right it is clear that you don't understand your own constitution...... Let me help you here...... Rights of man in your own constitution is not given by any government only by God. (An objective Moral law) Marriage is not an invention of man. God instituted marriage. According to God’s plan, man and woman together form the unit of humanity. A man or a woman alone is only part of an entirety. This new law the government ignored their own limited power to play God thus an objective moral law has now become a subjective moral law..... And you know how this works when it is subjective and open for interpretation as it has now become anything goes..... Animal and human marriage, child marriage, polygamy..... you name it and it can now be abused as anyone sees fit. Why? Because we can! Was it not Obama's election cry? Yes we can!Andre
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
10:29 PM
10
10
29
PM
PDT
goodusername.... That's not difficult to answer here we are in 2015 and most people including you still deny the authenticity of Christ. You deny free will, you deny human consciousness, you deny reason and you still don't have a grasp on the concept that there is nothing in the known universe engineered like you. Are you surprised? I'm not for 34 years I believed in what you do now.......Andre
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
10:20 PM
10
10
20
PM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6 7 10

Leave a Reply