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Given Materialism, What Reason Do We Have to Trust Ourselves?

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Two years ago I asked this question:  How Can We Know One Belief Selected for By Evolution is Superior to Another?

I illustrated the conundrum faced by the evolutionary materialist (EM) with this little back and forth:

Theist: You say there is no God.

EM: Yes.

Theist: Yet belief in God among many (if not most) humans persists.

EM: I cannot deny that.

Theist: How do you explain that?

EM: Religious belief is an evolutionary adaption.

Theist: But you say religious belief is false.

EM: That’s correct.

Theist: Let me get this straight. According to you, religious belief has at least two characteristics: (1) it is false; and (2) evolution selected for it.

EM [looking a little pale now, because he’s just figured out where this is going]: Correct.

Theist: You believe the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis [NDS] is true.

EM: Of course.

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: ___________________

Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Today I was reading an essay by Alvin C. Plantinga in The Nature of Nature that bore on this topic, and I decided to go to Google to see if anyone had attempted to fill in the blank.  And I found this by someone who posts as “Robin”:

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: Because I don’t have any belief in NDS; I understand through actual study of the data and parameters how it works and, in many cases, why it works the way it does.

Barry: Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Done and done, wanker.

I thought this response was amusing (especially the smug “wanker” at the end), because Robin does not even understand the issue raised by my post, far less how to address it.  Let me elucidate.

The Issue

I will let Dr. Plantinga set out the issue:

[Evolutionary materialist philosopher Patricia Churchland] insists that the most important thing about the human brain is that it has evolved; this means, she says, that its principal function is to enable the organism to move appropriately:

Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four F’s: feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism’s way of life and enhances the organism’s chances of survival [Churchland’s emphasis. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.

What Churchland means, I think, is that evolution is directly interested (so to speak) only in adaptive behavior (in a broad sense including physical functioning) not in true belief. Natural selection doesn’t care what you believe; it is interested only in how you behave. It selects for certain kinds of behavior: those that enhance fitness, which is a measure of the chances that one’s genes are widely represented in the next and subsequent generations. It doesn’t select for belief, except insofar as the latter is appropriately related to behavior . . . Churchland’s claim, I think, can perhaps be understood as a suggestion that the objective probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable, given [evolutionary] naturalism . . . is low.

Alvin C. Plantinga, Evolution Versus Naturalism, The Nature of Nature, 137

Now immediately the materialist might object that we are slicing this topic way too thinly, because while it is true that natural selection cares only about how we behave and not how we believe, our behavior necessarily follows from our beliefs.  Therefore, natural selection indirectly selects for true belief.  Not so.  As Dr. Plantinga explains, adaptive behavior and true belief are not necessarily connected at all.  He posits Paul, a prehistoric hominid who sees a hungry tiger.  Fleeing is obviously the most adaptive behavior.  But that behavior may be compelled by a large number of belief-desire pairs:

Perhaps Paul very much likes the idea of being eaten, but when he sees a tiger, always runs off looking for a better prospect, because he thinks it unlikely that the tiger he sees will eat him. This will get his body parts in the right place so far as survival is concerned, without involving much in the way of true belief . . . Or perhaps he thinks the tiger is a large, friendly, cuddly pussycat and wants to pet it; but he also believes that the best way to pet it is to run away from it . . . or perhaps he thinks the tiger is a regularly recurring illusion, and, hoping to keep his weight down, has formed the resolution to run a mile at top speed whenever presented with such an illusion; or perhaps he thinks he is about to take part in a 1600 meter race, wants to win and believes the appearance of the tiger is the starting signal; or perhaps . . . Clearly there are any number of belief-cum-desire systems that equally a given bit of behavior. (WPF 225-26)

You might object that Paul is a loon and his beliefs are ludicrous and unlikely to happen.  But that is exactly Plantinga’s point.  Even ludicrous belief, if it produces survival enhancing behavior, will be selected for, and this reinforces the point that natural selection selects for behavior, not true belief.

Plantinga also makes a point similar to that in my original post:  “Religious belief is nearly universal across the world; according to naturalists it is false, but nevertheless adaptive.”

So Robin misses the boat entirely when she dismisses the challenge of the original post with: “Because I don’t have any belief in NDS; I understand through actual study of the data and parameters how it works and, in many cases, why it works the way it does.”

Let’s examine her errors: 

Error 1:

Robin asserts she does not have any “belief in NDS” (i.e., the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis).  Nonsense.  Of course you do, and it is absurd to suggest otherwise.

You obviously misunderstood the word “belief” in the context of the post.  Wikipedia says this about “belief” in its article on epistemology:

In common speech, a statement of “belief” means that the speaker has faith (trust) that something will prove to be useful or successful— the speaker might “believe in” his favorite football team or “believe in” his dad. This is not the kind of belief addressed within epistemology. The kind dealt with simply means any cognitive content accepted as true whether or not there is sufficient proof or reason. For example, to believe that the sky is blue is to accept the proposition “The sky is blue” as true, even if one cannot see the sky. To believe is to accept as true.

In her comment Robin used “belief” in the “common speech” sense.  Obviously, I was using the word in the epistemological sense of “to accept as true.”  In that sense Robin obviously has a “belief” about the NDS.  She accepts it as true.

Error 2:

Robin says “I understand through actual study of the data . . .”

Well, that’s the question isn’t it?  The fact that you believe Darwinism is true (no matter how much you have studied) has no bearing on the question of whether your cognitive faculties are reliable in the first place.  You are essentially saying, “My cognitive faculties give me confidence that the product of my cognitive faculties (i.e, belief in the truth of Darwinism) is true.”  And that’s like saying, “You should believe I tell the truth because I am telling you that I always tell the truth.”  So your argument begs the question.

Conclusion

Reductive materialist Darwinism is irrational, because it is self-referentially incoherent.  It affirms at one and the same time two mutually exclusive propositions:  (1) A belief in reductive materialist Darwinism is a true belief; and (2) There is no way to rule out whether in any given case reductive materialist Darwinism has selected for a false belief.

So, Robin, the next time you call someone a “wanker” after you think you have just defeated their argument, you might want to find a person smarter than you (that shouldn’t be hard) and check with them  to make sure you understand the question, much less the answer to the question.

Comments
How extremely muddled the thinking of the Churchlands is becomes apparent when they state ‘(…) no neuron in my brain under-stands English, although my whole brain does.’ So the ‘whole brain’ understands English. If each and every neuron doesn’t understand English why would all the neurons combined suddenly understand English? Where does this – almost philosophical – 'insight' in the relation between the whole and the parts come from? What is the ontological status of this understanding ‘whole brain’ in Churchland’s naturalism? What kind of understanding ‘entity’ cannot be reduced to its unknowingly neurons?Box
March 16, 2013
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Yes, they do say that brains cognize -- that brain-states are cognitive states -- where I hesitate, though, is about the term "thinking," because Churchland is quite clear in holding that nothing at the neurological level corresponds to propositional attitudes. So if thinking involves propositions, then brains don't think. (But perhaps I'm conflating the Churchland view with my own.)
The way I see it is that the brain consists of matter and inside the brain is matter. Matter is governed by the laws of physics rather than the laws of reason.
Yes, there's a nice distinction at work here -- what Sellars and McDowell call the distinction between "the realm of law" and "the space of reasons." The question, of course, is whether or not this distinction can be accommodated within metaphysical naturalism. It seems perfectly obvious to me that it can; it seems perfectly obvious to you that it cannot. So we're at an impasse. But I do recognize that the onus is on me to develop a theory of reason as a natural phenomenon. The reason why I think this can be done is because, on my view, rationality is just the synergy between ordinary animal mindedness and language, neither of which looks like a promising place for explanations that transcend the natural world. (Put slightly otherwise: if ordinary animal mindedness -- the mindedness of a cat or dog or whatever -- is a natural phenomenon, and language is a natural phenomenon, then so too is rationality.)
BTW if there are maps of any kind in the brain it would be of no use in a naturalistic world, because there would be nobody to look at them.
The brain doesn't use a map; it instantiates it. More precisely: the habits of an animal are its map of its habitat because of causally-grounded relations between features of its environment and features of its brain. I take it that this is obviously true of, say, eagles or wolves or frogs. (Whether it's true of, say, spiders is a really interesting question.) And of course it's true for a great deal of human cognition, such as the kind we employ to negotiate traffic or make dinner. The Hard Question is, what's the relation between this kind of cognition and the kind of thinking we engage in when we make or assess an inference, ascribe an inconsistency to someone, or other kinds of rational thought. Or, in my preferred idiom, the Hard Question is: how did creatures whose lives are structured by habits evolve into creatures whose lives are structured by habits and also by rules?Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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thaumaturge:
You are a possible being, not a necessary one. Why would your non-necessary existence imply that there must be necessary beings?
vividbleau:
There can only be one necessary being.
If a necessary being necessarily creates a second being, then the second being is also necessary.
Furthermore since I am a contingent being and it is possible for me not to exist I am left with four options. 1) An infinite regress of causes or an infinite regress of effects (take your pick)2)I am uncaused. 3)I am self caused.4)Something exists necessarily. I am open to other options you might suggest.
The option you are missing is that there could be a first cause which is not a necessary being. thaumaturge:
You’re confusing “non-contingent” with “necessary”. A non-contingent being needn’t be a necessary being, and vice-versa.
vividbleau:
How so?
I just gave examples of both. A being that is necessarily created by a necessary being is necessary but contingent. A first cause that is not necessary is non-contingent but not necessary. Necessity and non-contingency are not the same thing. thaumaturge:
Sure, God is free to choose what he wants. But he’s only free to want the things that are in accordance with his attributes.
vividbleau:
What you characterize as limited I characterize as freedom. What can be more free than to want and choose the things that are in accordance with ones likes and dislikes (attributes)? Your idea of freedom is actually to limit God.Your idea of freedom is that God must be free to want and choose things that are not in acoordance with His likes and dislikes.
No. Like you, I am a compatibilist, so I have no problem with the idea that freedom consists in doing that which is in one's nature to do. But compatibilist free will is in fact limited, by your own criterion. Remember, you stated that
A necessary existence would have to be infinite in whatever attributes it possesses. Ifit is knowing it would have to be all knowing.If powerfull all powerfull etc, etc.The reason for this is that anything that is limited has potentiality, what has potentiality is limited.
And by that reasoning, a being that does some things has to do everything, or else it is not a necessary being. Since a good God does not do evil, he does not do everything. He therefore cannot be a necessary being by your criterion. P.S. Earlier in the thread, you wrote:
I cannot phantom such a notion as a causeless cause.
I think the word you want is "fathom", not "phantom". Anyway, since you're a theist, don't you think that God is a "causeless cause"?thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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KN: I don’t know if the Churchlands would say that a brain thinks. I’m inclined to say that they wouldn’t put it that way.
Wouldn’t that be politically correct or something? Well it is ok for them to say that a computer thinks – they say that all the time. ‘How does the brain achieve cognition?’ is one of the questions they ponder upon. That’s pretty close, isn’t? Or does the brain achieve cognition without thinking?
KN: Still, it doesn’t follow from that that brains are purely syntactical. Brains can contain semantic content, (…) maps of local environments (…) non-propositional quasi-semantic maps (…) propositionally-organized theories and languages.
The way I see it is that the brain consists of matter and inside the brain is matter. Matter is governed by the laws of physics rather than the laws of reason. BTW if there are maps of any kind in the brain it would be of no use in a naturalistic world, because there would be nobody to look at them.Box
March 16, 2013
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I don't know if the Churchlands would say that a brain thinks. I'm inclined to say that they wouldn't put it that way. The problem here is that thinking, as we commonly construe it, is something that's done with "propositions" -- sentence-like units of information. But the Churchlands point out that brains don't contain propositions. Still, it doesn't follow from that that brains are purely syntactical. Brains can contain semantic content, just not propositional semantic content. Better, they argue, to think of brains as containing maps of local environments: brains represent their environments by mapping its objects and features. So the Hard Question, by my lights, is figuring out the relation between (1) the non-propositional, quasi-semantic maps through which brains represent their environments and (2) the propositionally-organized theories and languages through which persons represent their worlds.Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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KN, I gather that the Churchlands are arguing that a computer can be like a brain, or can mimic a brain. I have no objection to that at all. I synchronized those two in my argument in post 59 - both are matter. The Churchlands work under the (weird) assumption that the brain thinks and is conscious. So they 'prove' that a computer thinks and is conscious when it is shown that it could work like a brain. In post 59 I express my problems with the assumption that the brain is thinking and is conscious. Do let me know if I have missed something.Box
March 16, 2013
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Isn't Churchlands’ view something like that Searle is wrong for assuming that the Chinese room will not in fact be a manifest consciousness and will not have some experience of understanding the semantics and meaning underlying its input and output exchanges of Chinese characters? Seems like a good assumption to me. Maybe someone in China will have to "speak" to the Chinese Room and inform it that its very being relies on an Englishman following English instructions, cranking levers and turning valves within its roomself.MrMosis
March 16, 2013
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Box, if I have time later on I'll post what I imagine would be Churchlands' response to the challenge. In the meantime, by all means take a look at their article and judge its merits for yourself. For what's worth, I don't share the Churchlands' views, but I they are worth taking very seriously -- partly because their views are usually misrepresented, even grossly misrepresented, by their critics.Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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KN Would you be so kind to summarize Churchland's counterargument - if there is one - to what I have stated in post 59? BTW I'm aware of Searle's intentions regarding the Chinese Room.Box
March 16, 2013
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Box, I bring to your attention the Churchland's response to Searle, "Could a Machine Think?". They argue that Searle is not entitled to the assumptions which make his thought-experiment appear convincing. In particular I point out their "Luminous Room" parody of Searle's "Chinese Room" as a way of showing just what is wrong with Searle's critique. (By the way, it must be pointed out, Searle never intended for the Chinese Room to be a critique of materialism -- he intended it to be a critique of A.I. Searle is a materialist himself, insofar as he thinks that the mind is the brain. He just thinks that brains have causal powers that computer programs, being mere lists of instructions, cannot have.)Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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According to materialism, thoughts are produced by matter – which is itself not in the business of thinking. Matter is doing something else. The same goes for computers: ‘they’ are not thinking. Even if what matter does may sometimes look like thinking it will never be actually thinking. That is, it will never be an activity that is governed by the laws of reason – such as logic. It will always be an activity governed by the laws of physics – which are not designed for thinking. For me Searle’s Chinese Room is a perfect example of something that looks like thinking but actually is not. This is an important reason why ‘material thinking’ – even if it exists - is in principle unreliable. According to materialism thinking is produced by something which is not thinking.Box
March 16, 2013
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kairosfocus:
T: You have twisted what I said into unrecognisable pretzels.
Not at all. Here's what you wrote, verbatim:
Plantinga deliberately chose a patently absurd case, but the issue is not that it is absurd and that one can pretend that somehow nature and nurture will magically deliver a sound mental system, but that this sort of absurdity is a commonplace of evolutionary materialist systems once we see the self referentiality involved. The matter is not so easily brushed aside as you imagine, once we substitute for Paul, actual and important cases that wore the holy lab coat for decades.
Yes, you made a silly error, but that's no reason to accuse me of twisting your words.thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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T: You have twisted what I said into unrecognisable pretzels. It should be clear that if we were made to be reasoning creatures, we would be capable of knowledge and would be equipped with senses and common sense to use them well, in their appropriate environment; which is what we experience empirically. Evolutionary materialism, as is shown from several actual cases that dominated in the halls of science and the academy for decades, has no such luxury. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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The difference between the theistic premise and the materialist one is that through the theistic premises of free will and a perfect arbiter of truth, humans have the potential to deliberately discern true statements from false. Under the materialistic premise, true statements cannot be deliberately discerned; they can only be uttered or believed by chance. While both premises leave truth-discernment open to error, only the theistic premises offers the **potential** of successful deliberate truth-discernment. Since all arguments presume that true statements can be deliberately discerned (potential), and that we're all using the same (universal, absolute) arbiter of true statements (logic), one can argue all they want that there is no difference between theistic and materialist assumptions, but they are still necessarily employing theist premises to make their argument and expect it to be soundly evaluated by those reading.William J Murray
March 16, 2013
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kairosfocus kindly (but inadvertently) makes my point for me:
The matter is not so easily brushed aside as you imagine, once we substitute for Paul, actual and important cases that wore the holy lab coat for decades.
Which means that if kairosfocus is right about theism, then our God-given minds are so unreliable that "actual and important cases" have "worn the holy lab coat" for decades before the errors were discovered. As I said at the beginning:
Theists are no better off than “reductive materialist Darwinists” when it comes to this issue.
Plantinga aims his weapon at "evolutionary naturalism" but theism ends up as collateral damage.thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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Cabal @ 5:
I believe this is a discussion better left to professional philosophers and psychologists. To me it seems poorly suited for making an argument questioning the validity of the scientifc theory of evolution. Especially since after twenty years, I still don’t know anything about ID except that ID is not in opposition to ToE, it is just the claim that magic (the effort of a mythical “designer”) is a better explanation for some signficant aspects of the evolutionary record of life.
Let's take that apart, step by step: >> I believe this is a discussion better left to professional philosophers and psychologists.>> 1 --> The history of C20 philosophy and psychology -- as in schools of self referential absurdity that dominated for decades -- has shown beyond doubt that the matter is too important to be left in their hands as experts to be taken on trust >>To me it seems poorly suited for making an argument questioning the validity of the scientifc theory of evolution.>> 2 --> What is at stake is not the scientific theory of evolution (and for that, if empirically grounded modelling that is reliable against observational tests is a criterion, is confined to micro evolutionary variations and adaptations of already existing body plans . . . ) but the a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism a la Lewontin et al. 3 --> It is then highly important to know that, ever since Plato in The Laws Bk X, 2350+ years ago, it was known that such reduced to undermining of the possibility of knowledge beyond radical relativism and opens the door to destructive nihilistic factions. 4 --> And in particular it is important to know, as was outlined already, that such runs into serious difficulties explaining the origin of a credibly knowing mind, a necessary condition of science. >>Especially since after twenty years, I still don’t know anything about ID except that ID is not in opposition to ToE,>> 5 --> If by theory of evolution you mean the matter of limited or universal common descent of life forms, ID is indeed not opposed to evolutionary theory, but once such theorising is loaded with ideological a priori materialism -- including by the back door of redefining science as explaining natural phenomena by naturalistic causes [As the US NAS and NSTA have done and have sought to impose on education systems under threat of holding children hostage . . . as in a certain threatening letter to Kansas] -- then design theory is opposed to the ideologically loaded theory of evolution. >> it is just the claim that magic (the effort of a mythical “designer”) is a better explanation for some signficant aspects of the evolutionary record of life.>> 6 --> this is a deliberate strawman caricature, as it reflects knowledge of the actual definition of the focus of design theory, but twists it into a more rhetorically convenient target. This is dishonest. 7 --> Design theory, FYI, asks and seeks to answer the question as to whether cause by design can and does leave signs that allow the process of cause by design to be reliably inferred from observation of its effects. 8 --> the answer to this, save to the ideologically committed and/or blinded is obvious, as the post you made lets us see by virtue of being an example: functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] is a commonly encountered, inductively reliable sign of design. One that can be quantified and further tested to be reliable. 9 --> As for the further demand that design theory as a scientific investigation then produce the suspect, that too is a strawman caricature. For, we all know that we have ever so many cases of known designs where we have not got credible reason to conclude to a chief suspect. As in cold case files aplenty in many police departments, for a simple case. 10 --> In the case of evident design of life, we have good reason per DNA and its codes and associated implementation machines etc, to infer to design. That gets us to that tweredun. That we currently do not have enough evidence on whodunit as a scientific matter, does not detract from that. 11 --> In the case of cosmological fine tuning, the evidence points to a designer of awesome power and knowledge beyond the cosmos. Philosophy has to take over from there, especially through the logic of cause and its implication of a necessary being at the root of reality. 12 --> But, phil is not sci. That does not mean it is useless or cannot deliver pretty strong warrant for key conclusions, if we are willing to listen. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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F/N: Of course, AF's increasingly threadbare excuse is that he does not read what I have to say. That, sadly, speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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AF: I am afraid it is not so easy to brush the issue aside as that, especially as one who faced the thinking of Marxists, Freudians and Behaviourists in the 70's. Here is my comment on the way that such evolutionary materialist (explicit or implicit) systems repeatedly and reliably end up consistently in self referential incoherence:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view: . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.] i: The famous geneticist and evolutionary biologist (as well as Socialist) J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity.
Plantinga deliberately chose a patently absurd case, but the issue is not that it is absurd and that one can pretend that somehow nature and nurture will magically deliver a sound mental system, but that this sort of absurdity is a commonplace of evolutionary materialist systems once we see the self referentiality involved. The matter is not so easily brushed aside as you imagine, once we substitute for Paul, actual and important cases that wore the holy lab coat for decades. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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G2: First, observe that we live in a credibly contingent cosmos as contingent beings. We have beginnings, and ends. There are possible worlds in which we are not. A necessary being is not like that. As a simple and non-controversial case, in no possible world -- even an empty one with no physical objects in it, will we have 2 + 3 != 5. This truth has no beginning, no end, no cause, it is necessary. Similarly, reflect on a burning match. Absent any one or more of heat, fuel, oxygen or the like oxidiser, and it will not come to be or will cease. It is contingent on external causal factors that enable its existence. Now, conceive a being, B, that is not like that, having no external causally enabling factors that it depends on. It would not have a beginning, it would have no ending, it would have to be in all possible worlds. Which means, that if in any possible world, B is IMPOSSIBLE, it cannot be in ANY world, and also if in any possible world B would be, it is so in all possible worlds. That is, if something is a serious candidate to be a necessary being (unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters need not apply), is will either be impossible or it will be actual. Now, as we said to begin with the world we inhabit is credibly contingent, and in particular seems to have had a beginning. It is causally dependent on something else, then. We can trace that as deeply as we want, the whole chain of such beings is dependent on something else. If something is, and that something is contingent, then there is something else that is necessary in the sense we have. Used to be, 100+ years ago, it was thought to be the observed universe as a whole. Post Hubble and the 1920's observations [multiplied by those of the 1960's], dead. So, the issue is not IF there is an underlying necessary being causally connected to the observed cosmos, but of what nature. Let's switch for a moment. God, as understood, is a candidate necessary being, the root of existence; and, obviously, a serious one. So, the real issue is not whether God is a necessary being as conceived, but if such a God is possible. That is, atheism asserts to know that such a God is impossible, or at least implies it. Formerly, it was easy to see arguments to that end by atheists: the deductive form of the problem of evil. Post Plantinga, those have largely collapsed and disappeared and there is sometimes a pretence that such arguments were never put. Sorry, I was there, on the ground to hear them, and to have to answer them. So yes, within living memory, atheists commonly argued that God is an impossibility. Now that the argument used to do that collapsed, the argument seems to be switching to, why should we accept that God is a candidate necessary being at all. I guess in the background, there is a back-handed recognition of the force of the logical issue of necessity, and actuality. The obvious answer to this, is the very nature of God as conceived -- root of existence, ground of being etc -- immediately and strongly implies that necessity of being. And that is before we get to the longstanding traditions that definitively conceive of God in terms that entail that: eternal, immortal, etc. So, I read the sort of objection that is now emerging as being inadvertently revealing. That is, instead of openly acknowledging the issue that God is a serious candidate necessary being, it wants to say, you show that to me, it is your burden to prove to me -- often, while I sit comfortable on selective hyperskepticism -- and I refuse to see that my view implies that God as historically and commonly conceived, is an impossibility. Which translates to: I probably cannot show God to be impossible, so the best rhetorical strategy onward, is to push the burden of proof back a step, and to sit on the claimed default. To explicitly state that is its own refutation. At worldviews level, every tub must stand on its own bottom. Coming back, the real issue is what is the necessary being at the root of nature as we observe and experience it. That being will be the ground of reality and will be eternal, of whatever nature. In answer, I suggest that the evidence of the world of life and the fine tuning/arrangement of the cosmos in which such life exists, both point to design, as is in fact historically the dominant view of the educated across time as well as the traditional view of theism. Our time is an aberration, historically, for for some decades it was imagined that there was an adequate system that got away from having to address the root of being. Now, collapsing. That is why, this logic is back on the table and refuses to be diverted from through the usual rhetorical devices. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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Graham2: 1. To prevent infinite regress with a causeless cause 2. To provide a source of free will, without which we cannot hope to deliberately discern truth 3. To provide a source of a perfect arbiter of truth, without which all arguments are subject to arbitrary and subjective conclusions. 4. To provide a source of a perfect, objective good, without which morality cannot be anything other than subjective and arbitrary - "anything goes" 5. To provide a reasonable explanation for the fine-tuning of the cosmos 6. To resolve the problem quantum wave function collapse presents to the formation of a universe prior to the presence of any physical observers Whether you call the entity that resolves those issues god or donald duck, it's still a necessary entity.William J Murray
March 16, 2013
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To Vividbleau at #32: Why is god necessary ? Why is he any more necessary than Donald Duck ?Graham2
March 16, 2013
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NS selects for genes? LoL! NS doesn't select and the traits are what get selected, not the genes- didn't evos just get done telling us that? Also beliefs effect behaviour, which is definitely something that can effect survival and reproduction. Meaning of course it would be part of natural selection's domain.Joe
March 15, 2013
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I see there is discussion of Barry's post elsewhere:
1. NS does not select for belief. 2. Plantinga and Arrington have no evidence NS selects for "ludicrous beliefs." The "ludicrous beliefs" that Plantinga suggests are all MORE COMPLEX than non-ludicrous beliefs, thus they waste brain power relative to simpler beliefs, and they are non-robust. Overly complex hypotheses are NOT ROBUST, that is, they do not adapt well to newly acquired data; overly complex hypotheses are less accurate in predicting data points that have not yet been observed, as any statistician can tell you. Plantinga and Arrington have no evidence NS selects for beliefs of any kind, least of all, overly complex, non-robust, "ludicrous beliefs." 3. NS selects for genes, which affect brain structure, which affect brain function, which affect beliefs. 4. Some brain functions (A) seek the simplest explanation for data, for reasons of ROBUSTNESS and minimizing wasting brain energy, and other brain functions (B) don't. The scientific method is an example of (A), religion is an example of (B). 5. Beliefs about invisible intangible entities that do not interact with matter are of type (B), so no brain functions will cause differences in beliefs of this type to converge to a single, simplest, most robust solution. Historically, differences of opinion here will only be resolved through non-mental functions, typically force and violence. The history of religion confirms this. 6. The belief in the primacy of reason is heresy according to the most important Christian theologians. Martin Luther: "Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets." — Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
linkAlan Fox
March 15, 2013
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@ Kantian Naturalist G. E. Moore seems to take issue with Kant. Are you really* convinced by Husserl's phenomenology? *couldn't resist!Alan Fox
March 15, 2013
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I was, as no other, indoctrinated by this Darwinian nonsense for 43 years...
Gil, I've seen you make this claim several times. I wonder how did your atheism manifest itself? Did you ever come out of the closet, or were you an atheist in private, only?Alan Fox
March 15, 2013
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"You are a possible being, not a necessary one. Why would your non-necessary existence imply that there must be necessary beings?" There can only be one necessary being. Furthermore since I am a contingent being and it is possible for me not to exist I am left with four options. 1) An infinite regress of causes or an infinite regress of effects (take your pick)2)I am uncaused. 3)I am self caused.4)Something exists necessarily. I am open to other options you might suggest. "You’re confusing “non-contingent” with “necessary”. A non-contingent being needn’t be a necessary being, and vice-versa." How so? "Sure, God is free to choose what he wants. But he’s only free to want the things that are in accordance with his attributes." What you characterize as limited I characterize as freedom. What can be more free than to want and choose the things that are in accordance with ones likes and dislikes (attributes)? Your idea of freedom is actually to limit God.Your idea of freedom is that God must be free to want and choose things that are not in acoordance with His likes and dislikes. If someone is choosing something they dont most want to choose and not in accordance with their likes and dislikes then that means their choices are being restricted or coherced somehow and in someway, in short limited. You stand freedom on its head. Vividvividbleau
March 15, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer:
Of course, this statement of your is merely one more inference, being made by a Thing Under Suspicion like all the rest. Don’t you see, if materialist is true, your own reasoning is discredited. Including your statement quoted above.
Not discredited, but under suspicion. And if theism is correct, you have exactly the same problem.
Now, it may be a true statement nonetheless. But only true by accident. Having such inferential power (to whatever degree it is “useful”) may be “favored” by “natural selection.” But how could one confidently rely on it for the Big Questions, such as the truth or falsity of materialism or theism in the first place?
Again, you have the same problem even if you are a theist. How does a theist know that her God-given intellect is reliable for the "Big Questions"? She doesn't. Just like the atheist, she has to do the best she can within her limited capabilities.thaumaturge
March 15, 2013
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bevets:
Theism is just a launching point. I will be moving on to the written propositional Truths in the Word of God and confirmation by the physical historical resurrection of Jesus.
Any further arguments you make from that launching point depend on fallible human reasoning, and are therefore subject to error. No matter how many layers you add to your argument, it might be wrong, because the foundation itself is in question.
What external (non tautological) evidence to you have that fit beliefs are more likely to be True beliefs?
We're surrounded by evidence. Consider my earlier example of the rock balanced on the edge of a cliff. Think of as many distinct false beliefs about that rock as you can. Then for each of those false beliefs, ask yourself whether it will tend to improve fitness or decrease it. You'll find that the majority of false beliefs decrease fitness.
How can you be sure one of the unknown unknowns is not fatal to your ENTIRE system of beliefs?
I can't be sure, but neither can you. That's my point. Whether you are a theist or an atheist, your knowledge is finite and your reasoning is imperfect. Plantinga seeks to raise doubts about our cognitive faculties, assuming that evolution is true. His argument backfires, however, because the same doubts can be raised if we assume that theism is true.thaumaturge
March 15, 2013
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thaumaturge:
There is nothing incoherent about a reality in which there are no necessary beings. Everything might be possible but not necessary.
vividbleau:
I exist therefore something must exist necessarily.
You are a possible being, not a necessary one. Why would your non-necessary existence imply that there must be necessary beings?
A finite God would not be a neccesary existence. A finite god is no god at all just another contingent existence just like us. Whatever exists contingently would owe its existence to something else. That something else would either exist necessarily or trace its existence to a necessary existence.
You're confusing "non-contingent" with "necessary". A non-contingent being needn't be a necessary being, and vice-versa.
There is every reason to assume that if God exists it exists necessarily.
You haven't presented any such reasons.
Sure it could have chosen otherwise. God is free to choose otherwise if that is what God wants to do. Nothing prevents God from choosing whatever it is He wants.There is no freedom greater than to choose what one wants to choose.
Sure, God is free to choose what he wants. But he's only free to want the things that are in accordance with his attributes. For example, if God is perfectly good, then he is incapable of choosing pure evil. It is a potentiality that he can never realize. He is limited to choosing good. Thus, by point 2c in my previous comment, he is not a necessary being.thaumaturge
March 15, 2013
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"1. There is nothing incoherent about a reality in which there are no necessary beings. Everything might be possible but not necessary." I exist therefore something must exist necessarily. "2. In such a reality, God might not exist at all, or he could be finite." A finite God would not be a neccesary existence. A finite god is no god at all just another contingent existence just like us. Whatever exists contingently would owe its existence to something else. That something else would either exist necessarily or trace its existence to a necessary existence. "3. There is no reason to assume that God is a necessary being." There is every reason to assume that if God exists it exists necessarily. "4. If you believe that God has libertarian free will, then your argument runs into trouble." No I dont think God has a libertarian free will. "5. On the other hand, if you think that a) God doesn’t have free will or b) God has free will, but of the compatibilist kind, then your argument also runs into trouble. Such a being could not have chosen otherwise, which means he is limited, and by 2c, a limited being is not a necessary being." Sure it could have chosen otherwise. God is free to choose otherwise if that is what God wants to do. Nothing prevents God from choosing whatever it is He wants.There is no freedom greater than to choose what one wants to choose. To say God is limited because He is free to choose anything He wants is ludicrous. Vividvividbleau
March 15, 2013
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