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Given Materialism, What Reason Do We Have to Trust Ourselves?

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Two years ago I asked this question:  How Can We Know One Belief Selected for By Evolution is Superior to Another?

I illustrated the conundrum faced by the evolutionary materialist (EM) with this little back and forth:

Theist: You say there is no God.

EM: Yes.

Theist: Yet belief in God among many (if not most) humans persists.

EM: I cannot deny that.

Theist: How do you explain that?

EM: Religious belief is an evolutionary adaption.

Theist: But you say religious belief is false.

EM: That’s correct.

Theist: Let me get this straight. According to you, religious belief has at least two characteristics: (1) it is false; and (2) evolution selected for it.

EM [looking a little pale now, because he’s just figured out where this is going]: Correct.

Theist: You believe the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis [NDS] is true.

EM: Of course.

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: ___________________

Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Today I was reading an essay by Alvin C. Plantinga in The Nature of Nature that bore on this topic, and I decided to go to Google to see if anyone had attempted to fill in the blank.  And I found this by someone who posts as “Robin”:

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: Because I don’t have any belief in NDS; I understand through actual study of the data and parameters how it works and, in many cases, why it works the way it does.

Barry: Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Done and done, wanker.

I thought this response was amusing (especially the smug “wanker” at the end), because Robin does not even understand the issue raised by my post, far less how to address it.  Let me elucidate.

The Issue

I will let Dr. Plantinga set out the issue:

[Evolutionary materialist philosopher Patricia Churchland] insists that the most important thing about the human brain is that it has evolved; this means, she says, that its principal function is to enable the organism to move appropriately:

Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four F’s: feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism’s way of life and enhances the organism’s chances of survival [Churchland’s emphasis. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.

What Churchland means, I think, is that evolution is directly interested (so to speak) only in adaptive behavior (in a broad sense including physical functioning) not in true belief. Natural selection doesn’t care what you believe; it is interested only in how you behave. It selects for certain kinds of behavior: those that enhance fitness, which is a measure of the chances that one’s genes are widely represented in the next and subsequent generations. It doesn’t select for belief, except insofar as the latter is appropriately related to behavior . . . Churchland’s claim, I think, can perhaps be understood as a suggestion that the objective probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable, given [evolutionary] naturalism . . . is low.

Alvin C. Plantinga, Evolution Versus Naturalism, The Nature of Nature, 137

Now immediately the materialist might object that we are slicing this topic way too thinly, because while it is true that natural selection cares only about how we behave and not how we believe, our behavior necessarily follows from our beliefs.  Therefore, natural selection indirectly selects for true belief.  Not so.  As Dr. Plantinga explains, adaptive behavior and true belief are not necessarily connected at all.  He posits Paul, a prehistoric hominid who sees a hungry tiger.  Fleeing is obviously the most adaptive behavior.  But that behavior may be compelled by a large number of belief-desire pairs:

Perhaps Paul very much likes the idea of being eaten, but when he sees a tiger, always runs off looking for a better prospect, because he thinks it unlikely that the tiger he sees will eat him. This will get his body parts in the right place so far as survival is concerned, without involving much in the way of true belief . . . Or perhaps he thinks the tiger is a large, friendly, cuddly pussycat and wants to pet it; but he also believes that the best way to pet it is to run away from it . . . or perhaps he thinks the tiger is a regularly recurring illusion, and, hoping to keep his weight down, has formed the resolution to run a mile at top speed whenever presented with such an illusion; or perhaps he thinks he is about to take part in a 1600 meter race, wants to win and believes the appearance of the tiger is the starting signal; or perhaps . . . Clearly there are any number of belief-cum-desire systems that equally a given bit of behavior. (WPF 225-26)

You might object that Paul is a loon and his beliefs are ludicrous and unlikely to happen.  But that is exactly Plantinga’s point.  Even ludicrous belief, if it produces survival enhancing behavior, will be selected for, and this reinforces the point that natural selection selects for behavior, not true belief.

Plantinga also makes a point similar to that in my original post:  “Religious belief is nearly universal across the world; according to naturalists it is false, but nevertheless adaptive.”

So Robin misses the boat entirely when she dismisses the challenge of the original post with: “Because I don’t have any belief in NDS; I understand through actual study of the data and parameters how it works and, in many cases, why it works the way it does.”

Let’s examine her errors: 

Error 1:

Robin asserts she does not have any “belief in NDS” (i.e., the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis).  Nonsense.  Of course you do, and it is absurd to suggest otherwise.

You obviously misunderstood the word “belief” in the context of the post.  Wikipedia says this about “belief” in its article on epistemology:

In common speech, a statement of “belief” means that the speaker has faith (trust) that something will prove to be useful or successful— the speaker might “believe in” his favorite football team or “believe in” his dad. This is not the kind of belief addressed within epistemology. The kind dealt with simply means any cognitive content accepted as true whether or not there is sufficient proof or reason. For example, to believe that the sky is blue is to accept the proposition “The sky is blue” as true, even if one cannot see the sky. To believe is to accept as true.

In her comment Robin used “belief” in the “common speech” sense.  Obviously, I was using the word in the epistemological sense of “to accept as true.”  In that sense Robin obviously has a “belief” about the NDS.  She accepts it as true.

Error 2:

Robin says “I understand through actual study of the data . . .”

Well, that’s the question isn’t it?  The fact that you believe Darwinism is true (no matter how much you have studied) has no bearing on the question of whether your cognitive faculties are reliable in the first place.  You are essentially saying, “My cognitive faculties give me confidence that the product of my cognitive faculties (i.e, belief in the truth of Darwinism) is true.”  And that’s like saying, “You should believe I tell the truth because I am telling you that I always tell the truth.”  So your argument begs the question.

Conclusion

Reductive materialist Darwinism is irrational, because it is self-referentially incoherent.  It affirms at one and the same time two mutually exclusive propositions:  (1) A belief in reductive materialist Darwinism is a true belief; and (2) There is no way to rule out whether in any given case reductive materialist Darwinism has selected for a false belief.

So, Robin, the next time you call someone a “wanker” after you think you have just defeated their argument, you might want to find a person smarter than you (that shouldn’t be hard) and check with them  to make sure you understand the question, much less the answer to the question.

Comments
vividbleau @ 32, Your (or Geisler's) argument seems to boil down to this:
1a. Necessary beings must exist (by definition). 1b. God is a necessary being. 1c. Therefore, God exists. 2a. A necessary being must be all actuality, no potentiality. 2b. A being that is limited in any way has the potential to be greater. 2c. Therefore, a being that is limited in any way is not a necessary being. 3a. God is a necessary being. 3b. A being that is limited in any way is not a necessary being (from 2c). 3c. Therefore, God is not limited in any way.
There are several problems with this argument. Here are a few: 1. There is nothing incoherent about a reality in which there are no necessary beings. Everything might be possible but not necessary. 2. In such a reality, God might not exist at all, or he could be finite. 3. There is no reason to assume that God is a necessary being. 4. If you believe that God has libertarian free will, then your argument runs into trouble. For any choice God makes, he could have chosen otherwise (according to the libertarian view). That means he had the potential to choose otherwise. A being with potentiality is not a necessary being (from 2a), so God cannot be a necessary being. 5. On the other hand, if you think that a) God doesn't have free will or b) God has free will, but of the compatibilist kind, then your argument also runs into trouble. Such a being could not have chosen otherwise, which means he is limited, and by 2c, a limited being is not a necessary being.thaumaturge
March 15, 2013
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I'd like to correct something I said in #35:
We must assume we (and those we are attempting to make a point to) have libertarian free will. We must assume both of those things – logic and free will – are uncaused, universal, non-arbitrary.
Rather, we must assume free will and logic are uncaused, and that logic is universal and non-arbitrary.William J Murray
March 15, 2013
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thaumaturge @ 30: The problem is that RMD's not only have a faulty brain (not mind, for an RMD, don't steal the concept), as you say, they have no presumed means by which to check and correct the output of their faulty brain; they have no presumed non-arbitrary standard by which to evaluate arguments; they have no presumed supervening capacity to evaluate evidence and argument above whatever causes them to think whatever they think with their faulty brain. Theists have such propositions, which are necessary for the expectation that we can supervene the faulty processes of the brain and reach true understandings. Note: I said necessary for the expectation. That doesn't mean it isn't hard and that it isn't imperfect - it means we have the expectation that true statements can be parsed and agreed upon as binding. There is no reason to have this expectation unless we posit free will and a universal, non-arbitrary arbiter of truth. Without uncaused free will, there is no reason to argue. We're just dogs barking at each other as our molecules command, whether we make sense or not. Without universal, non-arbitrary logic, there is no way to parse an argument as sound - there is just however the barking makes you personally feel and however it makes you react. That may be what the world is; there may be no god, and we might all be caused, biological automatons processing molecular interactions into voice and text and thoughts, like dogs barking or monkeys flinging feces at each other, with no universal arbiter of truth or any free will to supervene over our thoughts and behavior. But I'm not arguing about what the world **is**, I'm pointing out - whether you realize it or now, and whether you accept it or not - that there are assumptions that must underlie any argument where you expect someone else to be able to reach a sound conclusion about the truth-value of your argument. RMD's deny those assumptions, but unwittingly steal them in every argument they make. Because without those assumption, there's no reason to make an attempt at a "sound argument" in the first place.William J Murray
March 15, 2013
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thaumaturge @ 4 As long as true beliefs are in general more conducive to survival than untrue beliefs, then evolution will favor the development of reliable cognitive faculties.
Of course, this statement of your is merely one more inference, being made by a Thing Under Suspicion like all the rest. Don't you see, if materialist is true, your own reasoning is discredited. Including your statement quoted above. Now, it may be a true statement nonetheless. But only true by accident. Having such inferential power (to whatever degree it is "useful") may be "favored" by "natural selection." But how could one confidently rely on it for the Big Questions, such as the truth or falsity of materialism or theism in the first place? See the problem?CentralScrutinizer
March 15, 2013
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thuamaturge @31: My argument is not about "what the world is" - it could be anything. The rock could actually exist; it could a hallucination; it could exist in many different states at once depending upon the nature of the observer. My argument is about the nature of what must be assumed in order to make sound arguments and make statements that imply true knowledge - such as the ones you make in your post. We must assume logic is a universal arbiter of truth-values. We must assume we (and those we are attempting to make a point to) have libertarian free will. We must assume both of those things - logic and free will - are uncaused, universal, non-arbitrary. Logic is an abstract concept that only exists in the mind; for it to be non-arbitrary and universal, it must be a fundamental aspect of universal mind. Free will cannot be caused and still be free will; the source of it must be a willful, causless cause (note: "source" is not to be confused with "cause"). Whether or not god exists, and whether or not all of this is a solipsistic delusion, and even if I vehemently disagree that I must assume those things, and even if I vehemently deny that logic is non-arbitrary and universal, or that free will must be libertarian; those denials, those statements - regardless of my protestations - still depend on those very assumptions. If you make an argument, you expect others others to be able to parse the soundness of your argument. But, parse it with what? Unless there is an unspoken agreement that the both of you are parsing it with the same device - such as logic - why should you expect the other person to even understand your argument, much less be convinced by it? The tool they can be using to parse the value of your argument is whether or not they can physically beat you up, or by how you look, or who your parents are, or what job you have. But no - you expect them and everyone to use the same argument arbiting device as you - a fundamental assumption that that which arbits truth is not arbitrary. People can deny that all they want, but any argument they make - unless rhetorical or as attempted manipulation or bullying, or some kind of irrelevant pleading - still assumes it.William J Murray
March 15, 2013
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vividbleau @27:
However we are talking about uncaused souls and wills which seem to me to be effects, effects by definition require a cause, at least thats my position. Whats yours?
Effects do, by definition and logical necessity, require a cause. If our will is an effect - of anything, matter or God - then our will is caused, and is not independent. Free will, mathematics, logic, moral good - these things exist as aspects of god. If you were to say that god created a human and "gave" him free will, morality, logic, and mathematics (as simple as 1+1=2), what does that mean? Is there a place outside of god where god can create an "in the image of" being with versions of those qualities? Of course not. Nothing exists outside of god. All god can do is wrap a "portion" of itself up in some kind of apparent separation (which Eastern philosophies call maya, or illusion) - a body of some sort that distinguishes it and gives apparent self-identity. The "free will", morality, mathematics, and logic that this "body" and personality have access to is not separately created; they are the very same commodities that are fundamental aspects of god. They are uncreated, causeless things. This is why morality is not arbitrary, even for god; god cannot change what is moral, the fundamentals of mathematics, or logical principles. These are not arbitrary even for god, and are not arbitrary in anything god is creating. Without these non-arbitrary, uncaused commodities, whether they are in god or humans, argument & philosophy & reason breaks down. So IMO, our soul isn't "caused by god"; it is god - an aspect of god, a wave of the ocean, a child of god, a holographic "in the image of" god particle, which bears the same fundamental qualities of free will, moral good, etc. This is my working view on the subject, of course, to better argument and/or evidence.William J Murray
March 15, 2013
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thaumaturge @ 4 Assuming the existence of a God doesn’t imply anything about the cognitive capabilities of his creatures. Bevets @ 7 If God exists He fully and accurately comprehends Reality. If God exists He is able to communicate meaningful Truth to humans. This is not a proof that God exists (or even that humans have received Truth), however atheists have no similar hope of epistemological confidence. thaumaturge @ 4 Theism doesn’t say anything about our cognitive abilities. Theism is just a launching point. I will be moving on to the written propositional Truths in the Word of God and confirmation by the physical historical resurrection of Jesus. thaumaturge @ 4 As long as true beliefs are in general more conducive to survival than untrue beliefs, then evolution will favor the development of reliable cognitive faculties. So while any particular belief might be true or false, it is more likely to be true under an evolutionary scenario than under theism. Your teleology is showing. Why do you assume that [all] life is more likely to survive than to go extinct? What external (non tautological) evidence to you have that fit beliefs are more likely to be True beliefs? How can you be sure one of the unknown unknowns is not fatal to your ENTIRE system of beliefs?bevets
March 15, 2013
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thaumaturge re 28 "hat’s an unwarranted assumption. There’s nothing incoherent about a God of limited knowledge or finite reasoning power." There is everything that is incoherent about a god of limited knowledge or finite reasoning power To borrow from Geisler. It is undeniable that something exists.No one can deny his existence without affirming it.One must exist to deny it.Whatever is undeniable is true and whatever is unaffirmable is false. This existenc e fits into three logical categories.impossible, possible or necessary.Since my existence is neither impossible or necessary it is possible for me not to exist. Becasue I exist my existence is possible and not impossible. Further my existence is not necessary. A ncessary existence i an existence that canot not exist. A necesary existenc e would be pure actuality with no potentiality whatsoever.If it had any potentiality regarding its existence it would be possible for it not to exist. But a ncessary existence can not not exist. A necessary existence would be changeless.whatever changes has the possibility to change but a necesssary being has no possibility whatsoever. A necesary existence would have to be non temporal and non spatial existence.Its being cannot change and space and time change. A necessary existence would have to be eternal.If it ever did not exist it would not be a ncessary existence rather a possible existence. A necessary existence would have to be infinite in whatever attributes it possesses. Ifit is knowing it would have to be all knowing.If powerfull all powerfull etc, etc.The reason for this is that anything that is limited has potentiality, what has potentiality is limited. A necessary existence mut be an uncaused being. God is a necessary being thereforeit is incoherent to say " "here nothing incoherent about a God of limited knowledge or finite reasoning power." That may be true for Zeus or Thor but not for the necessary existence we call God I apologize for the typos Vividvividbleau
March 15, 2013
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William J. Murray:
Please note how you phrase your response as if objectively valid “true statements” exist, which is only meaningful if an objective arbiter of “what is true” exist. You statements assume a theistic premise, where “what is true” is not the province of “whatever colliding molecules happen to assert is true”.
William, I'm afraid I don't see the problem. Consider this scenarios: A rock is balanced precariously on the edge of a cliff, and I'm trying to decide whether I should sleep at the base of the cliff tonight. My "colliding molecules" may believe the rock is there, or they may not. I might be hallucinating, or I might not. However, the rock is objectively there, and this remains true whether I believe it or not. The objective truth of the statement "the rock is balanced on the edge of the cliff" only depends on whether the rock is in fact balanced on the edge of the cliff. Nothing else. It doesn't depend on my state of knowledge. It also doesn't depend on whether God exists, and I don't see why you think it does.thaumaturge
March 14, 2013
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Brent:
The fact that the possibility exists that we are wrong about something does not mean we have good reason to think we are.
Correct. Neither evolution nor theism guarantees that every belief is true, but that doesn't mean we should all start doubting that fish swim.
Barry is saying it happens to be the case that the materialist has a good reason to think that he/she is wrong about something. Your reply sounds childish (sorry), “Well! You aren’t 100% certain about anything either, so there!”
No, I'm saying something quite different, which is that theists have no more reason to trust their minds than atheistic evolutionists do. In fact, as I explained to bevets above, theists actually have less of a reason to do so.thaumaturge
March 14, 2013
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GilDodgen @26:
. . . logic and evidence — the two great enemies of Darwinism.
I love it!Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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bevets:
If God exists He fully and accurately comprehends Reality.
That's an unwarranted assumption. There's nothing incoherent about a God of limited knowledge or finite reasoning power.
If God exists He is able to communicate meaningful Truth to humans.
Another unwarranted assumption. He might or might not have that ability. Furthermore, having the ability to communicate truth doesn't guarantee that he'll do so in any particular instance. God, if he exists, has left humans in the dark about many, many things -- including some very important ones.
This is not a proof that God exists (or even that humans have received Truth), however atheists have no similar hope of epistemological confidence.
Evolution doesn't guarantee the truth of any particular belief, but neither does theism. Yet atheistic evolutionists actually have more reason than theists to be "epistemologically confident". Theism doesn't say anything about our cognitive abilities. They might be wonderful, horrible, or anything in between -- whatever God chooses to bestow upon us. As long as true beliefs are in general more conducive to survival than untrue beliefs, then evolution will favor the development of reliable cognitive faculties. So while any particular belief might be true or false, it is more likely to be true under an evolutionary scenario than under theism. Plantinga's argument thus backfires on him (and on Barry), with evolutionists coming out ahead in the end.thaumaturge
March 14, 2013
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WJM Thanks for your thoughtfull response. "What never changes is the uncaused cause, the soul, the free will observer that chooses what to focus its will upon." Not knowing your metaphysical beliefs I can only comment as it relates to mine. FWIW I think of myself as a Classical Theist so I do not think that my soul is uncaused nor my will for that matter. "Whether you can fathom a causeless cause or not, existence requires it (to avoid infinite regress)," To be frank I dont think we are capable of phantoming an uncaused cause however I agree. I think existence does require it. However we are talking about uncaused souls and wills which seem to me to be effects, effects by definition require a cause, at least thats my position. Whats yours? Vividvividbleau
March 14, 2013
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EM: Religious belief is an evolutionary adaption. Gil: Which random mutations would be required to rewire a primitive simian brain for religious belief? What is the probability that they would occur and be fixed in the population, given the available probabilistic resources? EM: Say what? Gil: EM, "Junk science" is a term that is insufficient to describe your proposition. Making up stories based on a conclusion that was reached in advance is the antithesis of legitimate scientific investigation. Barry, It is with perhaps some, but very little, apology for my transparent cynicism, that I ask: How can an educated, intelligent, rational person still accept this Darwinian drivel, given the ubiquitous availability of information showing it to be irrational, self-contradictory, mathematically absurd, and consistently falsified both empirically and by everyday experience? I was, as no other, indoctrinated by this Darwinian nonsense for 43 years, but quickly figured it out, once presented with logic and evidence -- the two great enemies of Darwinism.GilDodgen
March 14, 2013
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WJM re 18 I cannot phantom such a notion as a causeless cause. Did you exercise your will when you wrote “causeless cause” or did your will do it without any cause? Vivid
I am, at the most fundamental level, free will. Without it there is no "I", there is just a caused thing. Looks change. The body changes. The mind changes. Personality changes. What never changes is the uncaused cause, the soul, the free will observer that chooses what to focus its will upon. If I say I use my free will, or employ it; it is a euphemism. For a materialist, it would be like saying "I used my brain to figure it out" .. as if "I" and "brain" are two separate things when - to a materialist - they are not. Whether you can fathom a causeless cause or not, existence requires it (to avoid infinite regress), action requires it (to provide sufficient cause), and any hope of finding truth requires it in the form of free will.William J Murray
March 14, 2013
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Eric Anderson: I don’t disagree that emergence is a confession of ignorance. But I don’t think we should trick ourselves into thinking that claiming consciousness came about via some other wholly unspecific, unfathomable process, is much better, at least insofar as we are asking for an “explanation” for consciousness.
Never have I heard a materialist argue that theists have no explanation for consciousness. This has never been an issue. And rightly so. God as starting point for the explanation for consciousness is infinitely better than an explanation of consciousness in terms of unguided material processes.Box
March 14, 2013
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WJM re 18 I cannot phantom such a notion as a causeless cause. Did you exercise your will when you wrote "causeless cause" or did your will do it without any cause? Vividvividbleau
March 14, 2013
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BA @20:
Actually, from what I can tell, selection just so happens to select whatever Darwinists need to explain away:
Well said.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Barry @16:
“Emergence” can be dismissed out of hand. It is not an explanation; it is a confession of total ignorance trying (poorly) to disguise itself as an explanation. They might as well say, “Poof! It just happened.”
I don't disagree that emergence is a confession of ignorance. But I don't think we should trick ourselves into thinking that claiming consciousness came about via some other wholly unspecific, unfathomable process, is much better, at least insofar as we are asking for an "explanation" for consciousness. My point is more focused. Specifically, if one takes the position that consciousness can result from a created system (e.g., God makes the human body, or God makes the spirit out of some kind of spirit matter or whatever and then puts it into the human body), then we cannot begrudge the materialist taking the same position: namely, that consciousness can result from a created system. [Note, I'm setting aside for a moment the possibility that consciousness always existed.] So our real beef with the materialist (and indeed, the beef you expressed in the above quote), is not so much that a created system cannot result in consciousness, but rather that there is no good reason to think that a purely natural and material process could ever produce such a system. It is preposterous. Which is essentially the same argument we can make for any other biological system characterized by complex specified information. As to the reliable search for truth, I think KN's response @19 is typical for the materialist: selection would favor a reliable cognitive system. So the argument needs to home in on the details of such a system and show that there is considerable doubt as to whether selection would indeed favor such a system in specific instances. In summary, I think it is not quite correct to say that the materialist does not have an explanation for a reliable cognitive system. The materialist has an explanation. Two actually: (i) selection dunnit, and (ii) Stuff Happens. The key is to show that these are inadequate. Which is the same thing we do with all systems that manifest complex specified information. You've put some good thoughts on the table toward that end. And I think it is more an argument of "weight of the overall evidence" than it is an argument of "by definition the materialist story is self-contradictory."Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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KN as to:
It’s quite clear (well, to me at any rate) that selection would have favored the emergence of brains that build generally reliable cognitive representations of their environments.
Actually, from what I can tell, selection just so happens to select whatever Darwinists need to explain away:
Why Do We Invoke Darwin? By Philip Skell Excerpt: The efforts mentioned there are not experimental biology; they are attempts to explain already authenticated phenomena in Darwinian terms, things like human nature. Further, Darwinian explanations for such things are often too supple: Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive – except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed – except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery. http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/16649/title/Why-Do-We-Invoke-Darwin-/ An Early Critique of Darwin Warned of a Lower Grade of Degradation - Cornelius Hunter - December 2012 Excerpt: And as for Darwin’s grand principle, natural selection, “what is it but a secondary consequence of supposed, or known, primary facts.” Yet Darwin had smuggled in teleological language to avoid the absurdity and make it acceptable. For Darwin had written of natural selection “as if it were done consciously by the selecting agent.” Yet again, this criticism is cogent today. Teleological language is rampant in the evolutionary literature. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-early-critique-of-darwin-warned-of.html "Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing…. Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets." The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics, 2001 (pp. 199-200) William Provine - Professor of Evolutionary Biology - Cornell University
Moreover, since successful reproduction is all that really matters on a neo-Darwinian view of things, how can anything but successful reproduction ever be consistently 'selected' for? Any other function besides reproduction, such as sight, hearing, thinking, etc.., would be highly superfluous to the primary criteria of successfully reproducing, and should, on a Darwinian view, be discarded as so much excess baggage since it would, sooner or later, slow down successful reproduction. All the other baggage that Darwinists try to attribute to selection, besides successful reproduction, is nothing more than pipe dreams masquerading as science, and that have absolutely nothing at all to do with explaining the creation of any complex functional information!
EXPELLED - Natural Selection And Genetic Mutations - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4036840 "...but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have..." Maciej Marian Giertych - Population Geneticist - member of the European Parliament - EXPELLED In a Tadpole's Eye: Another Case of Darwinism's Plasticity Problem - David Klinghoffer - March 1, 2013 Excerpt: Organisms of all sorts are capable of intelligent, goal-directed, adaptive behavior that cannot possibly be accounted for on the basis of the theory of natural selection. *Never in the evolutionary history of human beings was there selection for "seeing" with the tongue. *Never in the evolutionary history of fruit flies was there selection for adaptation to an inverted visual field. *Never in the evolutionary history of ferrets was there selection for the brain reorganization necessary to see with the auditory cortex. *And never in the evolutionary history of the slime mold was there selection for solving mazes. Of course, the Darwinist will say that there is no need to posit past selection for plasticity. Instead, we will be invited to view plasticity as a "spandrel" -- an accidental side effect of other abilities that were selected for. But that would be entirely ad hoc. There is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/in_a_tadpoles_e069691.html
Moreover,, it seems that where we have the best fossil record for humans that 'selection' has fallen off the job of producing more complex brains in humans:
If Modern Humans Are So Smart, Why Are Our Brains Shrinking? - January 20, 2011 Excerpt: John Hawks is in the middle of explaining his research on human evolution when he drops a bombshell. Running down a list of changes that have occurred in our skeleton and skull since the Stone Age, the University of Wisconsin anthropologist nonchalantly adds, “And it’s also clear the brain has been shrinking.” “Shrinking?” I ask. “I thought it was getting larger.” The whole ascent-of-man thing.,,, He rattles off some dismaying numbers: Over the past 20,000 years, the average volume of the human male brain has decreased from 1,500 cubic centimeters to 1,350 cc, losing a chunk the size of a tennis ball. The female brain has shrunk by about the same proportion. “I’d call that major downsizing in an evolutionary eyeblink,” he says. “This happened in China, Europe, Africa—everywhere we look.” http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking
bornagain77
March 14, 2013
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It's quite clear (well, to me at any rate) that selection would have favored the emergence of brains that build generally reliable cognitive representations of their environments. (I'd be shocked if Platinga or Craig would deny this, but maybe they do.) That being the case, the EAAN requires that "true beliefs" be something over and above generally reliable cognitive representations. What is that "over and above"? What do true beliefs have that generally reliable cognitive representations not have?Kantian Naturalist
March 14, 2013
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All the characteristics you assign to human consciousness (“. . . free agency required to disengage itself from material causation and the physical programming of molecular interactions and evolution . . .”) could just as well exist if a material system, at some level of development and complexity, somehow gives rise to consciousness. Indeed, this is the whole premise of the artificial intelligence enterprise.
Free will cannot be caused and still be free will, regardless of how "consciousness" comes into existence. Free will must be a causeless cause. Similarly, the means of arbiting truth cannot be caused, or else it is whatever causes it says it is. Unless you are saying that matter can create causeless causes (a self-contradiction), then the RMD has no means by which to make a coherent argument of any sort other than by stealing theistic concepts.William J Murray
March 14, 2013
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WJM (13) The 2 premisses seem necessary indeed. The first one - free will - is no problem whatsoever for naturalistic emergentism. It goes like this: *poof* free will. The second seems more problematic. I don't think naturalists have the belly to overcome the qualms about invoking the emergence of 'an objective valid arbiter of truth'.Box
March 14, 2013
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Eric @ 11 and 14: “Namely, if consciousness cannot be the result of a created system, then either (a) it must have always existed, or (b) it must have come into existence in some other (largely unfathomable) way that does not involve the use of any matter.” You left out a third option asserted by all honest materialists: Consciousness does not exist. It is an adaptive illusion foisted on us by our genes (I see you circled back to this at 14). “Emergence” can be dismissed out of hand. It is not an explanation; it is a confession of total ignorance trying (poorly) to disguise itself as an explanation. They might as well say, “Poof! It just happened.” Be that as it may, your objection (or caveat) does not really go to the point of the post. Consider Paul and his encounter with the Tiger again. Let us concede for the sake of argument that Paul is a conscious agent. We can even say his consciousness is an emergent property of his brain (for all the good that does us). The issue is not whether Paul is conscious. The issue is whether his mental faculties are reliable in the search for truth. As the OP shows, given materialism, there is no reason to believe so.Barry Arrington
March 14, 2013
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Well, I think the notion that conscious may 'emerge' from a material basis is completely absurd. William Lane Craig, in short order, revealed the sheer bankruptcy that materialism (Metaphysical Naturalism) has in ever explaining many traits of consciousness.
1. The argument from the intentionality (aboutness) of mental states implies non-physical minds (dualism), which is incompatible with naturalism 2. The existence of meaning in language is incompatible with naturalism, Rosenberg even says that all the sentences in his own book are meaningless 3. The existence of truth is incompatible with naturalism 4. The argument from moral praise and blame is incompatible with naturalism 5. Libertarian freedom (free will) is incompatible with naturalism 6. Purpose is incompatible with naturalism 7. The enduring concept of self is incompatible with naturalism 8. The experience of first-person subjectivity (“I”) is incompatible with naturalism
I strongly suggest watching Dr. Craig’s following short presentation, that I have linked, to get a full feel for just how insane the metaphysical naturalist’s position actually is.
Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ The Mind and Materialist Superstition - Six "conditions of mind" that are irreconcilable with materialism: Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html
Moreover, even Nagel drew this point out in his recent book that ruffled so many atheistic feathers,,,
Nagel Asks, Is the World Really Knowable? - Joshua Youngkin - October 26, 2012 Excerpt: science even at its best could never offer a complete picture of the world. That is, science as science will necessarily lack the vocabulary to capture and express the myriad private worlds of subjective, conscious experience. To take Nagel's famous example, science could tell you everything you want to know about bats except what it is like to be a bat, to "see" via echolocation. Similarly, brain scientists could in principle learn every objective fact about your brain and how it works yet they wouldn't by virtue of this knowledge know what sugar tastes like to you. In the final chapter of the book, Nagel sums the matter up this way: "In attempting to understand consciousness as a biological phenomenon, it is too easy to forget how radical is the difference between the subjective and the objective, and to fall into the error of thinking about the mental in terms taken from our ideas of physical events and processes." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/nagel_asks_is_t065761.html
It is interesting to note how Nagel's argument broadly relates to Hawking's claim that God was no longer needed as creator of the universe since Hawking thinks "because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing",,,
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
But besides the overwhelming strength of these philosophical arguments (Many of which William Murray and StephenB are well versed in), we also have very, very, strong empirical warrant to presuppose consciousness precedes material reality:
The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: 1. Consciousness either precedes all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. [14] 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. references at bottom of this page https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
In contrast, here is a interesting quote noting just how far materialists have come in establishing empirical warrant for their position:,,
Darwinian Psychologist David Barash Admits the Seeming Insolubility of Science's "Hardest Problem" Excerpt: 'But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can't even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don't even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.' David Barash - Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist
bornagain77
March 14, 2013
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WJM @13: All the characteristics you assign to human consciousness (". . . free agency required to disengage itself from material causation and the physical programming of molecular interactions and evolution . . .") could just as well exist if a material system, at some level of development and complexity, somehow gives rise to consciousness. Indeed, this is the whole premise of the artificial intelligence enterprise. Personally I am quite skeptical that a material system can give rise to consciousness and am quite skeptical of the ultimate goals of artificial intelligence. That said, it is not correct to assert that the only materialist position available is that consciousness is not separate from "material causation and the physical programming of molecular interactions." Some materialists may hold to this view in public and declare that consciousness is an illusion (although when pressed, they sometimes back away from it). But other materialists (probably the majority, I'm guessing) view consciousness as something real, but they view it as having arisen due to a certain complexity state of matter. The OP is relevant to the minority materialist view that consciousness, knowledge, truth are all an illusion. If everything is an illusion then, yes, it is self-refuting. But many materialists would view that as a strawman caricature. They believe in things like consciousness, knowledge, truth, love, etc. So, the question very much at issue is in fact how consciousness arises. The self-contradictory nature of the denial of consciousness and truth is self-evident. Where consciousness comes from is not, however, self-evident. If a theist asserts that God, for example, created man and endowed him with consciousness, then the question immediately arises about what we mean by being "endowed:" (i) did the consciousness arise as a result of the creation God made out of matter, (ii) was it made from some other thing than matter (strange concept, but let's put it on the table for a moment), or (iii) was consciousness already in existence? Those are the only logical possibilities.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Eric, It doesn't matter how consciousness came to be; it doesn't matter what evidence there is in regards to how it came to be, or how it operates; it doesn't matter if it is eternal or created. The important fundamental part of the argument is what "truth" is, and what it means, and what must be assumed for truth claims to be made and for us to expect others to be able to meaningfully evaluate them. What does it mean to make a true statement, or to arbit a statement for its "truth" value? All sound arguments (that are not simply rhetorical or sophistry)and statements that imply truth-knowledge fundamentally assume that humans have a capacity to arbit true statements from false, even if they employ that capacity imperfectly. This assumption points to certain fundamental requirements. First, that human consciousness has the free agency required to disengage itself from material causation and the physical programming of molecular interactions and evolution; IOW, what we think cannot be sufficiently caused by blind, material forces, either lawful or by chance, or even as a property that "emerges" from blind, physical causation. Second, it requires that we assume there is an objective (non-arbitrary) means of evaluating the truth value of statements - otherwise, free will humans have no ruler by which to measure. If we all get to pick our own rulers, no sound arguments can be made. There is no expectation of any argument being compelling according to a universal means of arbitration. All we would have then is bullying and manipulation. You cannot measure a ruler with the same ruler; an evaluation system cannot evaluate itself for errors. This means we must assume there is a perfect, non-arbitrary, objective means of evaluating truth-values, even if humans employ that system imperfectly, or else all is lost. Everything becomes arbitrary - even the means by which we argue and evaluate arguments. "You're wrong because you have long hair" becomes as valid as "You're wrong because you've contradicted yourself." The concepts (1)that humans have libertarian free will and (2)that an objectively valid arbiter of truth exists are necessary premises that underlie all attempts at sound arguments and are embedded in all statements that imply truth. Only under theism do humans have both libertarian free will and an objective means to arbit true statements from false.William J Murray
March 14, 2013
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Please note how you phrase your response as if objectively valid “true statements” exist, which is only meaningful if an objective arbiter of “what is true” exist. You statements assume a theistic premise, where “what is true” is not the province of “whatever colliding molecules happen to assert is true”.
I find that this assumption, which is much-used in our discussions here, so far from obvious as to at least call out for some sort of argument. Here's the assumption I have in mind:
The Objectivity-Needs-Arbitration (ONA) Thesis: There are objectively valid assertions if and only if there is an arbiter of such assertions.
Why should we accept ONA? Why is ONA reasonable? Why would be unreasonable or irrational to reject ONA? Is ONA a "first principle"? What is the exact status of ONA? (Clearly, if ONA is itself an objectively valid assertion, we invite a familiar paradox -- so is ONA not an objectively valid assertion?)Kantian Naturalist
March 14, 2013
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I want to sound a note of caution regarding this thread. I have some sympathy for the "materialism is self-referentially incoherent" line of argumentation. I also think this argument can be useful for pinning down materialists and making them clarify their position. However, I do not think the argument is a slam dunk against materialism. Further, it runs dangerously close to being a strawman. Here's why: Most thoughtful materialists do not hold to the view that everything is just a result of unguided natural processes, end of story. Rather, they hold to the view that everything is just a result of unguided natural processes, and at some point in time the system created by such processes resulted in consciousness.* (A subset of the 'emergence' ideas.) Now, we can dispute this idea on the basis that it is preposterous, that it is probabilistically unlikely, and so on. But that just takes us back to the normal design probability calculations of how such a system came about, not whether such a system could exist, and is not germane to the question of whether a given system could result in consciousness. At this point someone is likely to hark back to a different thread and provide evidence that consciousness is not reducible to pure physical matter. But before doing so, we need to be cautious, for the following reason: There is a fundamental and binary question we can ask about the existence of consciousness, namely: Is it possible for a system to be created that results in the emergence of consciousness? (i) If so, then it is logically possible the materialist is correct that at some point in the course of unguided and undirected natural processes, a system was created that resulted in the emergence of consciousness. Again, we can attack this viewpoint by challenging the likelihood of a system arising from purely natural and material means, but that is the same challenge we have with any biological system, so we are not attacking a self-referential problem but just falling back on the probability calculations. (ii) If not, then we have a different issue. Namely, if consciousness cannot be the result of a created system, then either (a) it must have always existed, or (b) it must have come into existence in some other (largely unfathomable) way that does not involve the use of any matter. Thus, it is not clear to me that the religious observer is in much better shape than the materialist as to an explanation for consciousness. - If he asserts that God created man from physical matter and the arrangement of that physical matter is what gives rise to consciousness, he is in agreement with the materialist about (i), but just disagrees about the "how," and the whole issue can fall back to the general inquiry regarding the likelihood of biological systems arising through purely natural processes. - If he asserts that God created our consciousness, but not out of matter, then he avoids (i), but places himself in a position of essentially asserting a religious/metaphysical statement that is not amenable to any dispute or falsification. - Perhaps the simplest explanation would be that consciousness always existed and was not created -- that individual consciousness is an eternal entity of some sort. That would be the simplest explanation, but may not sit well with some religious/philosophical traditions. ----- In summary, the existence of consciousness and all it entails -- self-awareness, truth-seeking, truth-recognition, and so on -- is an exceedingly interesting question. However, on the question of whether it can be created we are not likely in much better position to answer than the materialist. So at the end of the day the focus comes back to the likelihood of such a system arising through purely natural and material processes. In other words, it is not so much a question of whether the materialist position is self-referentially incoherent, but whether the materialist position holds water as to its alleged creative powers. ----- * Note, I am using the word "consciousness" here because of the importance of self-consciousness or self-awareness in the truth-seeking enterprise, but don't get hung up on this word. If you prefer "awareness" or "intelligence" or some other word, fine. The point is how whatever allows us to be conscious, to reflect, to recognize truth, etc. came about.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Theists are no better off than “reductive materialist Darwinists” when it comes to this issue.
Please note how you phrase your response as if objectively valid "true statements" exist, which is only meaningful if an objective arbiter of "what is true" exist. You statements assume a theistic premise, where "what is true" is not the province of "whatever colliding molecules happen to assert is true". Otherwise, if RMD (reductive materialist Darwinism) is true, there is no assumption of an objective arbiter of true statements. "Truth" can be nothing more, in essence, than "what views produce the most hardy and prolific offspring". Theists are, in fact, "better off" when it comes to this issue, because under RMD, "true" can only mean "whatever produces the most successful, prolific offspring". So, theism - by the RMD measure, is "true", and materialism - which has produces and currently produces far fewer offspring - is false. So, under both paradigms, when evaluated logically through the premises of each paradigm, theism is true. It's only when you steal the concept of an objective truth and a means to arbit it beyond the consequence of happenstance, colliding molecules and natural selection - which RMD cannot offer - that one can say that Theism is false. RMD's cannot coherently claim that theism is false, and cannot coherently make truth claims of any sort predicated on assumption of objective truth and a means to arbit them accordingly. Which is what you do throughout your post:
All of us, theists and materialists alike, know ...
Know .. as in, believe to be true? In the theistic-premise sense, or the RMD-premise sense? You're again stealing a theistic concept as if it can be applied from the RMD perspective.
that human cognition is not perfectly reliable. (If we were wrong about that fact, then that in itself would be an error, thus proving the point.)
More assertions that cannot be held as "true" in any meaningful sense under RMD; this could just be nonsense that evolution has generated through you. You are assuming Logic is more than just whatever any individual organism has been conditioned by biology and physics through natural selection to believe it is. Under RMD, the logic you are applying has no capacity to arbit objectively true statements or conclusions. You're stealing a concept again. The rest of your post is chock full of truth assertions that requires (1) objective truth to exist, and (2) you and those you argue with to have access to an objectively valid system of arbiting true statements, even if humans use that system imperfectly. For your post to make any sense from an RMD perspective, whenever you imply that a statement you make is "true", what you must be referring is that it will produce more successful offspring. But, unfortunately, even that assessment can only be meaningfully held as true from a theistic perspective. IOW, RMD's cannot claim to make true statements; they can only claim to make statements that have helped the procreation of their species. And they cannot even claim that assessment to be "true".William J Murray
March 14, 2013
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