Golden ratio in guitar solos?

_{News
December 2, 2014

Intelligent Design, Mathematics, News

2}_{Categories
Intelligent Design
Mathematics
News}

Share: Facebook; Twitter/X; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

Golden rectangle/Ahrecht (Original), Pbroks13, Joo

Further to Does the golden ratio, 1.618, unify science?

A reader kindly writes to say that his high school guitar teacher told him that one can find the golden ratio in guitar solos that sneak into songs:

Golden section and golden rectangles, the harmonic series and the model of its ideal behavior simplified, equal temperament and just intonation and a description of the beat frequency conflict produced by the deviations between simultaneous sounding of harmonic partials and prime frequencies and how it affects the tone and timbre of the guitar. Read to the end for some cool videos demonstrating the properties detailed here.

Design? Chance? Chance only if there are a zillion universes that don’t have anything like this. So the evidence for their existence is… ? Uh, right.

Chances are, today’s art establishment won’t take the golden ratio seriously unless it helps chimps fling poop at each other. That’s art too, didn’t you know? Well, it will be if some project gets funded.

See also: The multiverse: Where everything turns out to be true, except philosophy and religion

and

Human origins: The war of trivial explanations

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments

Wd400 said Seriously, SA, if you want to make something of the golden ratio in nature then you are going to have to point to examples of it existing in nature. I say, The ratio exists outside the cave like all Platonic forms. It's a special kind of poverty to stare at the shadows and somehow conclude that there is no reality in the shapes they approximate. The forms don't exist "physically" in the cave. To do so would be to constrain themselves to the merely materiel. The whole point is that the forms transcend the cave yet still influence the shape of the shadows they cast peacefifthmonarchyman_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
03:11 PM
3
03
11
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiastic #46
What is the origin of the rules that create such symmetry and beauty with such simple and elegant mathematics? Something more harmonious and beautiful?
Why does there have to be an 'origin'? What if the rules just arise from the act of combining the basic building blocks of the universe? Why can't that be the case? Consider my example of all the primes (except for the bad boys 2 and 3) being +1 or -1 from a multiple of 6. At first glance that doesn't sound right at all. That's too easy. But it is true. Check it out. Now, is that some great cosmic design or is that just the way the dice fall? Check out your own beliefs. What are your leanings? Towards 'this was designed' or 'this arises from the basic structure'. And THEN . . . try and prove your belief.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
03:11 PM
3
03
11
PM
PDT}

Where in Nature, Wd400? Google "Golden Ratio in Nature" for plenty of examples. "That's not a Golden Ratio to 7 decimal places". True, general guidance not strict 7 decimal place guidance. "That's not guidance, that's oops." "That's not guidance, thats inevitable. Like a rock falling due to gravity." Disagree there. Nature is guided sometimes by the Golden Ratio. Mountains of scientific evidence.ppolish_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic #52
Ok, but would you be open to the idea that mathematical rules don’t just arise from matter and energy?
Make your case and I will do my best to consider it with an open mind.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic #51
I was referring to #38 where I quoted you:
Ah yea, got it now. Okay here's the rant/diatribe: I hear a lot of people say that atheists have go no feeling in their life, no meaning, no moral grounding. No bottom. In my experience this is just not the case. All the atheists I have known are terribly thankful for the time they have on earth, want very much to leave the planet in a better state than when they entered it, try very hard to understand other points of views, really, really love the natural world, really, really love poetry, cinema, drama, music, literature . . . Where does this notion that atheists/materiallists are boring, dull, machine-like beings come from? They love poetry, drama, music, theatre, whatever just as much as you do. Why would you assume otherwise? Unless you looked at them as being limited in some way. Flawed. Lesser. IF so then whose bias is that? If none of this applies to you, please pass on and ignore. I am finding it surprisingly difficult to prove that people who don't believe in God can still see beauty and passion and truth in the world.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:59 PM
2
02
59
PM
PDT}

Seriously, SA, if you want to make something of the golden ratio in nature then you are going to have to point to examples of it existing in nature. I don't know how I could say that more plainly.wd400_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT}

Jerad
My opinion: they arise from the universe being built with a basic set of building blocks. So certainly patterns are bound to arise.
Ok, but would you be open to the idea that mathematical rules don't just arise from matter and energy?Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:43 PM
2
02
43
PM
PDT}

Jerad #48 I was referring to #38 where I quoted you: Jerad:
I’d like to add that I think this notion that rationalists and materialists have no poetry in their soul is complete rubbish.
I also asked you a question before that, but it's ok if you don't want to answer.Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:39 PM
2
02
39
PM
PDT}

wd400
Folks keep saying this, but they can’t poitn to any, so I’m a little confused.
I'm a little confused also because you said, recently:
The other point is that most of the example of golden ratios/spirals just aren’t true — galaxies spirals aren’t golden, nor are nautilisues or the overwhelmeing majority of snail shells (I guess by chance some are close), most flowers don’t have Fibonacci numbers of petals.
You might have meant "all" rather than "most" because otherwise you said that "some flowers have Fibonacci numbers of petals", etc. As for your claim that "some snails are close", I could ask "which snails are you talking about"? But since you already explained yourself to mean ("but with > 60 000 species one of them must grow at someting like the rate required to generate it") individual snails, then I wouldn't ask you to go out and find them. Again, I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss the pattern because it doesn't conform with mathematical precision (and yet state some are "close").
The only really good ones I know are packing of seeds and leaves, but there is not magic there, so I’m a little confused to why people are trying to make so much and of something that can’t actually point to.
If you're saying that there's really nothing to appreciate about these mathematical patterns in nature then I'm not convinced. At the same time, I understand what you're getting at and why you're arguing this way.Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:35 PM
2
02
35
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic #46
What is the origin of the rules that create such symmetry and beauty with such simple and elegant mathematics? Something more harmonious and beautiful?
My opinion: they arise from the universe being built with a basic set of building blocks. So certainly patterns are bound to arise. What kind of analogy can I present .. . . Okay, how about this: every prime number (after 2 and 3 which are not nice and don't play well) is either +1 or -1 from a multiple of 6. This is easily verifiable as true but it feels too pat too . . . easy. How can one of the most intractable mathematical sequences, the primes, still be bound by this simple rule. But they are because of the way the natural numbers are 'made'.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:33 PM
2
02
33
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic #41
If you’d like to try to convince me that there’s nothing of beauty in this, or nothing to generate awe and wonder, I’m open to what you have to say. But I’m afraid you’d only be supporting the notion that Jerad claimed was “complete rubbish”.
Without trawling back through all the previous posts to be sure I'm sure which post SA is referring to can I just say that: Some of the claims about the golden ratio being present in this or that structure are rubbish. Or are extremely generous interpretations of the sites. The important point here must surely be: did the architects of those sites intend to represent the golden ratio in their constructions? If We're not sure then we can not say yes. Yet. Always stay open to new data. But, it is the case that some of the Fibonacci numbers do occur in nature. No ambiguity. No question. I think this is an indication that nature is built upon a set number of basic building blocks and therefore it's reasonable to expect some patterns to occur. No one understands it all yet but I'm enjoying the journey of discovery. As should we all. We live in very interesting times. We should be very, very appreciative of that fact.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT}

Nature shows spiral patterns in many forms and many of these conform to the golden spiral. Folks keep saying this, but they can't poitn to any, so I'm a little confused. The only really good ones I know are packing of seeds and leaves, but there is not magic there, so I'm a little confused to why people are trying to make so much and of something that can't actually point to.wd400_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:07 PM
2
02
07
PM
PDT}

Jerad 40 You're asking great questions. I hope you're willing to be open to ideas that are very much connected to them.
Is there a meta-pattern above?
What is the origin of the rules that create such symmetry and beauty with such simple and elegant mathematics? Something more harmonious and beautiful?Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
02:02 PM
2
02
02
PM
PDT}

wd400
I agree the series are beautiful ...
I'm glad to agree with you.
Where in nature?
You've already admitted that they are found in nature so I'm sure you're not giving me this loaded question to argue that they don't exist. Nature shows spiral patterns in many forms and many of these conform to the golden spiral. If you're saying, as with your example of snails, that the spirals often don't conform with exact mathematical precision to the golden spiral, I'd wonder more about why you'd make that kind of response than I would about the correctness of it. It seems that you're reacting to something, rather than expressing some admiration for the beauty you recognize (which Jerad did more openly).Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT}

Where is nature being guided be the golden ratio?wd400_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PDT}

WD, Nature is being guided by Laws like the Golden Ratio. Does not have to be "mystical" guidance, just non-material guidance.ppolish_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PDT}

Where in nature? I agree the series are beautiful, I'm taking about the claim they are in spiral galaxies and shells and all that... that's mostly mysticism.wd400_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
12:48 PM
12
12
48
PM
PDT}

What marvels are there in relation the golden ratio in nature, SA?
I would guess that from your perspective there are none - right? From my perspective, the beauty and mathematical symmetry of these sequences, found in different aspects of nature are a marvel to observe and consider. What is the origin of the golden ratio? Fibonacci drew his own conclusions as did other mathematicians like him. I'll suggest that a lot of people today think the same thing. You could try Googling 'fibonacci' 'marvel', for example, and see what people have to say about it? If you'd like to try to convince me that there's nothing of beauty in this, or nothing to generate awe and wonder, I'm open to what you have to say. But I'm afraid you'd only be supporting the notion that Jerad claimed was "complete rubbish".Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic #38
So, it’s interesting, but not really. Make sure to dismiss any of the marvels we actually observe. “By chance snails are close” but there’s nothing poetic or beautiful here, or at least nothing worth talking about.
I'm not going to put words into anyone else's mouth but I do think the study of nature and the finding of mathematical structures therein is beautiful and wondrous. But I do agree that much of the golden ratio searching is pseudo-mathematics. Just like the guys who say they can read Pi in the Egyptian pyramids to some stupid amount of decimal places.
Zachriel added something similar:
Fibonacci shows up because it represents optimal spiral packing, either for space or for contact.
Nothing to admire or appreciate here at all, apparently. Fibonacci just “shows up”. Nature needed something “optimal” so there it is. No big deal.
But he is right! And figuring that out is a fabulous stroll through a mathematical landscape!! For me nature is grand and glorious and, for some reason, it abides by certain rules and exhibits patterns. It's hard to explain the pleasure and joy of chasing down those patterns and rules. I look at the world as being a magical manifestation of a surprisingly small number of 'rules' and 'laws'. The fact that there's so much 'play' in the system, that so much can come of what may only be a handful of particles and principles is mind-boggling and awesome. How lucky are we to be alive and to be able to, even in a small way, come to terms with and understand some of that underlying structure? We are so lucky and so fortunate. On my very bad, worst days I still (fortunately) am able to look around and see so much to love and learn and appreciate. The number of spirals on a pine cone turn out to be a Fibonacci number!! And that's a pattern. It doesn't mean (to me) that there's a design behind it. Don't say it is the meaning, it is just a pattern. But it does mean I have reached out and touched a (very small) truth of this universe. How amazing is that? The pattern isn't the story. The story is getting deeper into the universe. And figuring out why the patterns occur. Is there a pattern to the patterns? Can we quantify it? Can we use this pattern to understand other patterns? Can two patterns be explained by the same rule? Is there a meta-pattern above? Are the patterns simple and elegant or messy and difficult? so much beauty, so little time . . . .Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
12:39 PM
12
12
39
PM
PDT}

What marvels are there in relation the golden ratio in nature, SA? BTW, i don't know of any snails that are close to the golden spiral, but with > 60 000 species one of them is must grow at someting like the rate required to generate it. That's all I meant by "Some must be close" to a golden spiral.wd400_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
12:22 PM
12
12
22
PM
PDT}

The exchange between BA77 and Jerad was one of the more interesting things I've read here - thanks to both. I liked Jerad's expression that the sequences are "spooky" - that signified some admiration and wonder about them. Jerad's later comments were similar and surprising, from what I had read elsewhere. So that was good.
Jerad: What makes you think I’m an atheist anyway?
Are you a theist? Jerad:I’d like to add that I think this notion that rationalists and materialists have no poetry in their soul is complete rubbish. He said, just before wd400 added ...
wd400 Sequences and series and number theory are interesting, but most of the golden ratio stuff is numerology.
So, it's interesting, but not really. Make sure to dismiss any of the marvels we actually observe. "By chance snails are close" but there's nothing poetic or beautiful here, or at least nothing worth talking about. Zachriel added something similar:
Fibonacci shows up because it represents optimal spiral packing, either for space or for contact.
Nothing to admire or appreciate here at all, apparently. Fibonacci just "shows up". Nature needed something "optimal" so there it is. No big deal.Silver Asiatic_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT}

ppolish #36
BTW, I don’t know how the calculation of Golden Ratio is done for music, but it would not suprise me it was part of M.Ronson’s guitar playing in the Rebel Rebel link I posted. Supposedly his best guitar playing there;)
:-) Don't ask me, my wife is the Bowie fan. I'm a Who-man. In fact I saw The Who live at Leeds a couple of nights ago. Fab-u-lous. One of the best concerts I've been to. Ever. No question.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
12:07 PM
12
12
07
PM
PDT}

BTW, I don't know how the calculation of Golden Ratio is done for music, but it would not suprise me it was part of M.Ronson's guitar playing in the Rebel Rebel link I posted. Supposedly his best guitar playing there;)ppolish_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
11:45 AM
11
11
45
AM
PDT}

ppolish #34
Jared, my son used to be my daughter:0 Maybe us bringing her to a Bowie Concert while in the womb played a part. Gene Genie Genes?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH :-) (That's appreciative laughter for the joke in case anyone would prefer to think I"m being dismissive.) Now I AM going to have put on Cha-cha-cha-changes. :-) I just dropped my son off at Cadet training. I"ve got some paradigm shifting of my own to start!!Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
11:15 AM
11
11
15
AM
PDT}

Jared, my son used to be my daughter:0 Maybe us bringing her to a Bowie Concert while in the womb played a part. Gene Genie Genes? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U16Xg_rQZkAppolish_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT}

ppolish #32
Jerad, I’m not complaining and I’m not hating. Just explaining that it’s easy to lose patience. Sometimes losing patience helps everyone involved.
That is true!! Sometimes I do that with my son in hopes he actually listens!!Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
10:21 AM
10
10
21
AM
PDT}

Jerad, I'm not complaining and I'm not hating. Just explaining that it's easy to lose patience. Sometimes losing patience helps everyone involved.ppolish_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT}

ppolish #28
Unappreciative spoiled children. Take Take Take. Take everything for granted until pain. Then they complain the loudest. “It’s not fair waa!”
I'm not sure who you are referring to but those sentiments definitely do not apply to any of my atheist or Christian friends (yes, I have quite a few). I find that people with a certain level of intelligence take nothing for granted, work hard, believe in and support laws and rules and do their very best to not complain unless they have a very, very good case. Perhaps you should try getting to know some of the people you are complaining about and not just react through a stereotype?Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
09:59 AM
9
09
59
AM
PDT}

BA77 #26 I didn't say you hated atheists but you did say:
despite all the flowery language atheists try to pour on their Nihilistic worldview, at rock bottom in atheism, there is no real reason, no beauty, for why anything happens in the universe.
Which is not very understanding or true. Which is why I think you haven't really got to know any atheists.
I simply pointed out the incoherence of atheism.
I would NEVER EVER tell a person of faith on this forum that their beliefs were incoherent because I think that's unecessarily rude and definitely OFF THE POINT.Jerad_{December 4, 2014
December
12
Dec
4
04
2014
09:52 AM
9
09
52
AM
PDT}

Prev 1 … 6 7 8 9 Next

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply