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Gregory and the Subject of Human Extension

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The following is a one-shot guest post by regular UD commenter, Gregory. I offer this because I know that Gregory’s been talking about Intelligent Design for years, and because it was my intention to give him the chance to make his case for the social sciences’ relevance to the ID discussion. As before, my posting this shouldn’t be taken as endorsement – in fact I’m very skeptical of the direction of Gregory’s project for a number of reasons, which I may or may not mention later in comments. But he was civil and sincere enough, and I thought the regulars at UD would find his thoughts interesting, whether to consider or point out the flaws.

Anyway, here I cede the floor to the social sciences. Have at it, folks.

Human Extension: an Alternative Way to Look at Intelligent Design
By Gregory Sandstrom, PhD
“The endless cycles of idea and action
Endless invention, endless experiment
Brings knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.”
– T.S. Eliot

Thanks to nullasalus for agreeing to post this guest thread on Uncommon Descent.

This post contains an article that includes 3 internet links to works on evolution, creation, intelligent design and human extension that I have produced or been involved with in recent months. It also means that I am ‘coming out of the closet’ by revealing my true name. At this point in time (summer 2012), I consider that to be a risk worth taking.

When I accepted an invitation to attend the Discovery Institute’s summer program for humanities and social sciences in 2008, I did so not as an IDer, but rather as someone researching in the subfield now called sociology of science (SoS). I wanted to see who these people are that accept and promote intelligent design (ID) and learn more about the home base for the intelligent design movement (IDM), the Discovery Institute (DI) in Seattle, Washington. It was a professional curiosity regarding IDers and the IDM as much as it was a personal interest in science, philosophy and religion discourse that brought me to knock on the DI’s door.

The first day at the summer program we were given a presentation (including both the natural-physical sciences as well as the humanities and social sciences participants) by Bruce Gordon, CSC Senior Fellow. According to Gordon, there are 3 types (or definitions) of evolution: 1. change-over-time, 2. universal common descent, and 3. neo-Darwinism (by which he meant natural selection plus random mutation). Gordon said that ID has no problem with 1 or (generally, if not specifically) 2, but that 3 is believed by IDers to be either wrong or insufficient.

This may sound unusual to some people (as it would to Bruce), but I disagree mostly with 1, take no issue with 2 (though I’m open to some kind of ‘uncommon’ descent scenario, specifically with respect to human beings, e.g. ‘divine election,’ while accepting an ‘old’ Earth), and don’t much care about 3, given that my interests are mainly outside of biology, botany, zoology and genetics. I treat neo-Darwinism as an ideology rather than as a science and consider (neo-)Darwinian evolution as a legitimate natural scientific theory that seems to have many ‘errors’ in it at the same time that it also possesses many truths (cf. Allchin 2009). To clarify, I reject calling ‘(neo-)Darwinism’ a ‘scientific theory’ because of the common ideological signifier ‘-ism’ which is attached to Darwin’s name.

Regarding point 1, ‘evolution’ should not be defined or expressed to mean ‘change-over-time’ because there are ‘other’ kinds of ‘change-over-time’ that are not ‘evolutionary’ (more on this below). In other words, change is the master category, rather than evolution. Evolution is a particular type of change (i.e. non-teleological or goal-oriented and without foresight) and people should not attempt to invert the linguistic priority by giving evolution a monopoly over change. Doing so improperly privileges evolution and leads to the possibility of turning evolution from a natural scientific theory into an ideology or even a materialistic or atheistic worldview.

Taking this approach over the years has allowed me to reframe the general discourse of evolution, creation and ID which I invite people visiting or participating at UD to consider as a view that both is contra-evolutionism and humanitarian. Here I define ‘evolutionism’ as the ideological exaggeration of evolutionary theory into fields or topics where it does not properly belong. One example of this is giving ‘evolution’ a monopoly over ‘change.’ Another is the faulty transference of evolution from biology into anthropology, psychology, sociology, politics, economics and cultural studies; socio-biology and evolutionary psychology being the simplest examples.

So, UD reader, if you are against the ideology of evolutionism, then you might be interested to openly consider the position I am putting forward here and elsewhere. Truth be told, however, this position differs in significant ways from ID as it is presented and advocated for today by the IDM. If you are an IDM-ID proponent, and if you likewise consider the position I’m putting forward as valid and potentially fruitful, then you will eventually be faced with a choice between IDM-ID and the more holistic approach to science, philosophy and religion presented here. This approach claims more relevance regarding human meaning, values, beliefs, morality and ethics, as well as the term ‘intelligence’ than anything yet produced by the IDM. This is said after having viewed the DI and IDM from within more than independent internet bloggers.

You might be wondering where I’m going with this since I’ve been working in the human-social sciences on the topic for over a decade (2010 defended a dissertation on comparative sociology). Is it my task to ridicule ID and mock you in the same way as materialists and Darwinists do? No. It turns out that I made a far-reaching discovery in 2001 that may seem counter-intuitive to some people at first, but which has held up under scrutiny, criticism and mentorship. It is either a non-ID or a neo-ID approach to knowledge and existence, thus this thread is titled “an alternative way to look at intelligent design.” Let me now explain the reasoning behind Human Extension.

This discovery effectively answers the question of ‘what doesn’t evolve’ and/or ‘what are the limits of evolution,’ while also providing a new contribution in the human-social sciences. Michael Behe writes of ‘the edge of evolution’ related to biology, but it doesn’t sound like the biological community has (yet) embraced his notion of ‘unevolvability.’ What I discovered and have tested over a decade for weaknesses and errors is an alternative approach to ‘unevolvability’ in a different core field than biology, where nevertheless evolutionary ideas are still active and current.

In short form, what I am suggesting is that it makes sense to say that technology and other human-made things (cf. ‘artificial selection’) do not ‘evolve.’ Instead, they ‘extend’ from human choices.
This human-social paradigm for science and technology studies (STS) can be expressed in two basic axioms:
Axiom 1 – Nothing human-made evolves into being (or having become);
Axiom 2 – Everything human-made extends from human choice(s), to do, to act or to make something.

If you wish to challenge Human Extension, it is with these two axioms that you should start.

The idea of ‘human extension,’ found in the work of internationally recognised culture, technology and media theorist Marshall McLuhan, the so-called ‘sage of the wired age,’ came to me before I had actually heard of ‘intelligent design’ (ID) and the intelligent design movement (IDM). When I later learned about the IDM (2002), I then became active in exploring the possibilities of their new idea, participating in discussion forums about ID and asking questions via e-mail to IDM leaders. I also visited the DI in Seattle, which was just a couple of hours drive from my home near Vancouver, Canada.

During the period of the following years, I continued to develop the answer I’d discovered, engaging with people around the world (in no less than 7 countries) on its history, possible relevance and application. After several presentations at academic conferences and then publications in scientific journals on this topic (from 2005-2010), finally in 2011 the time came to face an ‘alternative world of ID’ (Fuller 2012).

This alternative way to look at ID can be seen for the first time by visitors to UD in this TEDx talk, which raises the spectre of ID, but also goes beyond it by speaking of Human Extension and the courage of extending humanity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t85d6Bh9Nys.

One example of an ‘alternative world of ID’ that I had heard about during my journey is visible in the prolific work of American-British philosopher and sociologist of science, Steve Fuller. His approach to ID is imo on the cutting-edge, even if it is not well-known or widely accepted in the IDM. (Note for religious apologists: his Wikipedia profile is wrong – he is not an atheist or a ‘secular humanist,’ but rather an Abrahamist, educated by Jesuits.) Fuller was called as witness and participated at the 2005 Dover Trial, but that is far from being his most important contribution on this topic (see parallel thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/steve-fuller-in-id-philosophy-news/). His work as a social epistemologist facilitates people to consider the presuppositions and implications of ID theory, in ways that both distinguishes it from ‘creationism’ while also revealing its dependency on the worldview of its founders who all believe human beings are/were created in imago Dei. According to Fuller, without recognising this and the “deep theological roots” of ‘intelligent design,’ any theory that takes its name makes little sense from a historical or intellectual perspective.

As a result of following the trail Fuller has blazed, over the past few years I’ve come to realise that humanities and social sciences enable fresh access to ‘the bridge’ between natural sciences, philosophy and theology that IDers have written and spoken about but have yet to practically cross. Crossing such a bridge is possible because meaning, purpose and values are involved in humanities and social sciences in a way they are not in natural sciences. In other words, by ‘humanising ID’ into the humanities and social sciences, i.e. by recognising the inescapable ‘reflexivity’ (both individual and group-oriented) involved in defining and interpreting ‘intelligent design’ both now and in the first place (1980’s & 90’s), a new type of qualitative evaluation or meaning infusion can be revealed that is not now available in IDM-ID.

Towards this prospect, a series of short papers has been recently published on the topic (http://social-epistemology.com/2012/06/05/sandstrom-basboll-craddock-scott-intelligent-design-as-social-epistemology-collective-judgment-forum/), called “Intelligent Design as Social Epistemology” (ID as SE). The involvement of social epistemologists on the topic of ID actually realises the predictions that DI scholars made in the 1990s regarding the unique role of non-natural sciences in shaping the future and current meaning of ‘intelligent design.’ In other words, we are ahead of the IDM in looking at the social influences on and actual beliefs of IDers, thus providing a valuable service to scientists and laypeople from a sociological perspective.

This means that we don’t just look at ID as an ‘ontological’ view (i.e. the position that contends there *is* ‘detectable’ design in the natural world), but instead as an ‘epistemological’ view people hold that displays various pre-commitments and background assumptions. By looking closer at the personal-ideological features of ID, a contribution by humanities and social sciences can be welcomed. This is what is being suggested here now at UD, though much more work is presented elsewhere, and it is granted that even more remains on the road towards you being convinced.

If you’ve made it this far you may be wondering why this matters to the IDM? Why should people who are promoting ID predominantly in natural-physical and applied sciences pay any attention at all to social sciences and humanities? First, because admitting that ‘social epistemology’ is in *any* way involved with ID theory challenges the neutrality-myth that ID is merely a detached, impersonal, objectivistic, scientific theory of order, teleology and information. Also, because ‘Darwinism,’ the greatest singular ideological enemy of the IDM, has in some ways also affected the social sciences and humanities in the form of ‘social Darwinism.’

It may have seemed like a good idea to insist that ID-is-science-only using (copying, imitating, etc.) the preferred language of natural scientific methods. But in fact doing just that actually compromises the core meaning of ID, which imo has the higher potential to re-humanise, rather than to dehumanise via its connection with philosophy and theology. The neutrality-myth indeed can be seen as a burden on the soul of the scientist, just as much as some people consider it as a kind of liberation (or escape) from religion to study ‘just the facts.’ The meaning of ‘intelligent design’ as Fuller and I approach it is about ideas, pre-commitments and the personal worldview(s) of its proponents as much as it is about biological data and physical or material details. Admitting that the psychological dimension is inevitably part of ‘doing science’ will be a humbling experience for the neutrality-myth proponents of ID.

To suggest that ‘atheists could be IDers’ is also deemed as an ingenuous and highly unlikely if not impossible proposition. If one believes that the world is ordered, guided, and/or governed by a transcendent intelligence, like the Abrahamic God, as do Fuller and myself and presumably all other ‘real’ (authentic) IDers, then the suggestion that ‘atheistic ID’ is even a possibility is removed from the logical table of discussion. David Berlinski is thus a mere anti-Darwinist rather than a pro-IDer, sharing positive theological meanings of ‘design.’

Atheists can therefore become IDers, but they cannot disbelieve in God and also accept the core meaning of ID, that people are divinely-created (and are thus able to recognize ‘intelligence’ in the created world). IDers are persons of faith in a ‘designer/Designer,’ even if they do not often include (i.e. even sometimes purposely exclude) discussion about it in their persistent quest for ID’s scientificity. It is not controversial to grasp this or to express it.

What it speaks to is one of the most significant features of ID theory that often goes unnoticed. Without showing what ID has to do with actual persons, i.e. how ID makes a difference of meaning in people’s lives, the notion of ID ‘in biology’ or ‘in nature’ cannot properly resonate with or influence humanity. IDM-ID as a ‘neutral-natural-science’ thus obscures as much as it enlightens. That is why humanities and social sciences scholars need to be pro-actively invited for constructive dialogue with ID natural scientists, engineers, programmers and theologians. The former fields contain insights into meaning, purpose, value and ethics that natural and applied scientists simply do not possess. Objectivistic approaches to ‘intelligence’ and ‘design’ thus only give a partial view of the story, which can also be informed by subjectivity and personality.

By turning to ‘an alternative world of ID’ that places the central focus on human choices, purpose, meaning and teleology in opposition to universal evolutionism, a direct, realistic path opens up to overcoming naturalistic and materialistic ideologies that have tended to extinguish belief in the human spirit. It is expected that 99% of IDers support belief in the ‘human spirit’ and rejection of materialism as an obligation. Materialism is an ideology that is simply not satisfactory when employed on topics of choice and action. But the IDM has not (yet) satisfactorily explored these topics. This is where looking to Human Extension offers new hope for an end to the (Anglo-American) ‘culture wars’ over evolutionism, not to mention ‘Darwinism.’

The arrival of a social scientific approach to ‘intelligent design’ such as Human Extension is surprisingly what the DI already predicted in the 1990s and what is now finally coming to happen. Though it may appear to look like IDM-ID, in fact Human Extension differs considerably in speaking with emphasis anthropically and reflexively. Nevertheless, what some of you at UD mean by ‘design’ may be thought to be what I mean by ‘extension.’ Looking deeper at these two notions will thus help to clarify the differences and similarities; for now it is enough to say that the two positions share a common opposition to evolutionism.
The greatest indictment of evolutionary philosophy: it brings “knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.” This is how extension is able to challenge evolutionary philosophy by insisting that pauses and lack of change, voids and moments of stillness are part of human life and existence. Unceasing eternal/temporal change is as impossible to the human mind, body and soul as eternal/temporal sameness.

What people are seeking today is thus a balance between statics and dynamics, between more and enough, between science, philosophy and religion. This is what Human Extension helps people to more directly explore and encounter than is possible through the lens of evolutionary philosophy or naturalistic ID.

Change is involved in human living, whether we call it ‘evolution’ or not. But there are also pauses or gaps or voids or stillness, which are a part of human existence. The way we label this recognition will inform the post-evolutionistic epoch. Even those who subscribe to theistic evolution (TE) or evolutionary creation (EC) will find it helpful that ‘evolutionism’ can be safely exposed as ideology and removed from carrying a label of ‘scientific.’ This is what my work over the past decade has shown, which is now revealed at UD under the label of Human Extension, as it has been called elsewhere. For those interested to pursue the idea further, much more than this short introduction is written and available elsewhere (just follow the link on my name).

Human Extension is an example of ‘change-over-time’ that is not evolutionary; it involves purpose, plan, goal(s), meaning and direction (teleology) that is not present in biological evolutionary theories. It is a human-social scientific (reflexive) contribution to knowledge and discourse involving evolution, creation and intelligent design. By allowing choice a foot in the door via Human Extension, the ideology of evolutionism can be overcome, allowing a significant step to be taken in human-social thought toward more balanced, collaborative dialogue between the major realms of science, philosophy and religion.

There is now therefore a new position available in the conversation to contemplate, a post-neo-evolutionary position, which draws on rich and deep traditions in a variety of scholarly fields, from philosophy and theology to communications, psychology, geography, anthropology, mathematics and economics. This position, not one from biology, engineering, informatics or origins of life studies, offers a sincere, deliberate and long-prepared challenge to evolutionism and IDM-ID. This includes hope for clarification and collaboration, as well as a reality check to the IDM’s narrow naturalistic notion of ‘intelligent design,’ which so far (purposely) excludes human meaning.

So, now that I’ve come out of the closet and revealed myself and this dynamic-static, more-enough, counter-evolutionistic approach that has been in the works for years, is it possible that you will you respond favourably and with constructively critical comments, challenges or questions? Will you instead drop the plastic hammer of condemnation by stating how irrelevant the social sciences are in the contemporary world, how humanity doesn’t actually matter very much for intelligent design, evolution and creation topics, that they involve nothing but objective or empirical scientific questions? Or will you keep the option open that a new paradigm or heuristic could arise to shed new light on old problems, including issues of whether or not mind, consciousness or spirit are involved (reflexively) in the world of human nature?

I met many good and decent people at the DI’s summer program and carry no personal grudges with the IDers and friends I met there. I may disagree with their ‘blind’ acceptance of ID, but I don’t reject them as persons. The choice is now up to you: in what way you will extend your hand to me and to this new possibility of Human Extension as an integrative insight into science, philosophy and theology?

“Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.” – Pope John Paul II

Extension is a “fundamental notion concerning the nature of reality.” – A.N. Whitehead

Sources:
Allchin, Douglas (2009). “Celebrating Darwin’s Errors.” The American Biology Teacher, Vol. 71, No. 2. Earlier form adapted and posted here: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~allch001/papers/D-errors-NYU.pdf
Dembski, William (2004). The Design Revolution. Inter-Varsity Press.
Fuller, Steve (2006). The New Sociological Imagination. Sage Publications.

McLuhan, Marshall (1964). Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man. New York: McGraw-Hill

Comments
"Who made the violin – no idea. No label on it, and I didn’t witness its construction. But it was designed." - Optimus Could you not do some investigative/detective work and find out who 'designed/made/constructed' your violin, where, when and how? Surely you're not saying it just fell out of the sky or that human designers and crafters were not involved in producing/making it?Gregory
July 31, 2012
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Optimus
beautiful violin sitting on a shelf – clearly a designed object given its carefully shaped parts, fitted together in such a way as to accomplish a function, namely producing music
You determined that the violin was designed because you know what its function is, and you can tell that its parts are made to perform that function. Presumably you've also determined that life was designed. So my question to you is: What is the function of life?lastyearon
July 31, 2012
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(cont’d) I accept Timaeus’ nuanced teeth-pulling answer to my simple and direct (no tricky language) question: “All scientific theories — not just ID, but all of them — are conceived by human minds…if your point is that theories are a human thing (and hence unlike rocks and snails) — yes, of course.” Yes, exactly. And this is what enables Human Extension to study theories, languages, artefacts, movements and other ‘human-made’ things, including IDM-ID and the IDM itself. Otoh, IDM-ID is necessarily focused (in one or a few limited fields) on biological information, organisms and origins of life; it is “necessarily [be] focused on questions of natural science”. Optimus has nailed down the key issue: “ID is agnostic to the identity and nature of the designer, so it is irrelevant whether the designer is human or not. Without prior or empirical knowledge of the designer it is impossible to say with absolute certainty what or who the designer was.” Thus, if ID *CAN* possibly speak about ‘artifacts’ (as most people at UD have affirmed), then it can also speak ‘with absolute certainty’ about “the identity and nature of the designer,” i.e. about human beings. This is true as long as ID is not a ‘historical science’ looking into the deep past, beyond the ‘records of mankind.’ Most analyses of ‘artifacts’ take place today, here and now, or in recent memory, with documents, signatures, photos, even videos or audio recordings to provide evidential support. And even in the case of ‘historical sciences’ dealing with long-ago-designed/created-extended artifacts, the designers are nevertheless still known (or assumed) to be human beings, even if the specific human beings are not known (or knowable). Iow, IDM-ID is unnecessarily agnostic about “the identity and nature of the designer” when the realm is artifacts that are by-definition human-made. This is a gap in IDM-ID that Human Extension exploits. In fact, it is *not* “irrelevant whether the designer is human or not.” Instead it is crucial to define whether ID theory as theory is interested in human-intelligence or only in non-human-intelligence. In the case of human designers, we already have “prior or empirical knowledge of the designer.” In the case of non-human designers, we have no such “prior or empirical knowledge.” This divides the two examples into different categories of knowledge discovery. Yet at the same time, Optimus also hedges his bets, saying “ID methodology can be applied successfully to things of either human or nonhuman origin.” So what is this mysterious ‘ID methodology’ that can supposedly be applied to “things of human origin,” but which at the same time can’t (i.e. refuses to) speak about “the identity or nature of the designer”? It sounds either deviously contradictory or else purposefully obscurantist. Why not clearly and precisely apply ID to human-made things if people are saying this is possible? Human Extension otoh is absolutely clear that it can and wants to study “the identity and nature of the designer.” That is why it is a thorn in IDM-ID’s side; it agrees to do what IDM-ID refuses to do, to study designers and designing processes. Steve Fuller suggests that specifying the intelligence behind the design is important: “why should our intelligence be taken as a guide to intelligence in things we had nothing to do with creating? Well, this is where the imago dei doctrine comes in. In fact, I can’t see how you could justify using intelligence as a principle for explaining natural order otherwise…If there is some other account of ‘intelligence’ that makes sense in this context, and would be scientifically fruitful, please do tell.” Nobody here has stood up to Fuller’s challenge, not even Timaeus, to give “some other account of ‘intelligence’.” And some people here have even been hesitant to acknowledge the imago Dei doctrine as being involved in the coining of 'IDM-ID' in the 1980s-'90's. It would seem then that a significant upgrade or overhaul of IDM-ID is necessary, given these significant deficiencies that have been shown. “ID is the place where the science-theology nexus is taken seriously as an intellectual project, and is in fact what makes ID an exciting research orientation.” – Steve Fuller That’s something that has not yet been embraced here at UD, but which, if it was, would go a long way to improving the IDM-ID paradigm as it is currently articulated and communicated. Thankfully, at least StephenB has agreed to a ‘synthesis’ in terms of ‘interdisciplinary cooperation’ between science, philosophy and theology. We hope he means this to include ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design.’Gregory
July 31, 2012
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Gregory- The issue is you are quote-mining me. You cannot accept my answers without the explanations. After all you asked for explanations also. We use our knowledge of cause and effect relationships- vis-a-vis our study of artifacts and nature, operating freely. So yes ID properly applies to artifacts as they give us the knowledge required to be able to differentiate between nature, operating freely and when some agency was involved. And that gets to the root of Newton’s four rules of scientific investigation- no adding unnecessary entities. and Yes termite mounds, beaver dams and spider webs also apply- termites, beavers and spiders are all agencies capable of manipulating nature for their purpose. That said Intelligent Design is not about human and animal artifacts. Those just give us the observations and experiences required for a uniformitarian PoV- biological organisms appear designed because they were designed according to our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Joe
July 31, 2012
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O.k. now that there have been several answers to the survey question, here is my response. Joe says, “Intelligent Design [capitalised] is not about human and animal artifacts” (#81). But he also claims “ID properly applies to artifacts” (#76). So, there seems to a double-sided coin involved in his approach to ID. How can IDM-ID ‘not be about,’ but at the same time ‘properly apply to’ artifacts? In my view, it can’t. StephenB says (#69): “the [ID] method can be applied to any artifact,” i.e. to human-made things. And he answers clearly ‘Yes’ in #82, that ID theory properly applies to artifacts. So, my pregnant question to StephenB: If we can apply ID methods to artifacts, then can we not logically and properly speak about the ‘designers’ (i.e. human beings) and the ‘designing processes’ (well-documented) involved in making artifacts, i.e. by studying the human beings involved in ‘human-made things’? If not, then why not, since you’ve already suggested that artifacts *can* be studied using ‘ID methodology’? If yes, then why is there currently little to no work being done on human designers and design processes by DI Fellows if you’re saying ID method(s) can be applied to artifacts? Timaeus answers deceptively with a No/Yes hedged bet: “’intelligent design’ — lower-case ‘id’ — embraces both ‘Human Extension’ and ‘ID’ — upper case ‘Intelligent Design.’ The ID proponents are interested in upper case ID; Gregory is interested in Human Extension; both activities could be thought of as divisions of ‘id’.” He continues: “confirming the human origin of artifacts is not what ID — capital ID — is about. From the start it has been about questions of biological and cosmic origins.” So, we’ve got two different answers from Timaeus, no surprise. I already said above that I accept small-id, and previously that in my view so do all Abrahamic theists; we believe the world is designed and/or created-extended. By small-id I mean both that “In the beginning God created…” and also on a smaller scale that ‘designers’ are human beings who can be studied and questioned for their/our reflexive ‘acts of designing.’ Human Extension thus focuses on small-id, but not on Big-ID. To say small-id embraces Big-ID (and Human Extension) as Timaeus does is problematic. There are many (one might argue all) TE’s and EC’s who accept small-id and yet do not embrace Big-ID. So Timaeus is obviously falsifying reality, off on another of his “inventing things out of thin air on behalf of ‘ID people’” maneuvers. This is most likely because he doesn’t understand or care to know about (or even to acknowledge!) social movements (such as the IDM). We’ve got three different names coming from Timaeus: ‘capital ID (and non-capital) ID,’ ‘upper case/lower case ID’ and ‘small-id/Big-ID’ (as he used it here first, of his own accord). I’m going to assume these denote the same difference to him. They denote the same difference to me also, but I give an additional definition that Timaeus does not. Timaeus claims Big-ID (that’s the shortest form, which I will use henceforth) is about just the Movement (social, cultural, educational, religious, political, etc.) and its institutional reality at Discovery Institute. I’m suggesting that Big-ID also denotes the claim that ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ can (and has!) be(en) proven ‘scientifically.’ Will Timaeus recognise that definition of Big-ID or not? I don’t accept the Big-ID natural scientific proof notion of ‘design in nature’; I think that over-reaches its proper domain. Small-id, however, also can be expressed as a study of human-made things, for which we can study both the designers and the designing processes they use. That is what Human Extension speaks to directly and clearly, leaving aside IDM-IDs desire to ‘uncover the mystery of life’s origins’ instead searching for a better understanding of human beings and our everyday lives, including our technologies, goals, plans, dreams, etc. This is what can be studied with Human Extension, but which has no part of IDM-ID. Timaeus, to his credit, however, seems more aware of the significant difference between IDM-ID studying ‘organisms’ OR Human Extension studying ‘artifacts’ than most others here. He wrote (#49): “Gee, I must be slow on the uptake. I thought that a call for ID to switch its focus from what happens in nature to what happens with the design of artifacts and social systems would be a massive changeover from one kind of investigation to a completely different kind of investigation…” Timaeus also agreed with me in #51 that “‘artifacts’ are by definition ‘designed,’ i.e. by human designers.” Iow, he understands that one doesn’t have to try to prove something that is already assumed. Thus, Timaeus’ tentative words of support for Human Extension come with the realisation that there is a vast fruitful landscape open for study in the realm of ‘human-made things’, regardless of whether that involves classic YEC-TE/EC-IDM-ID controversies. My attempt to chart a new way forward is obviously disconcerting to him, thus the repeated personal attacks and insults he has publically written about me in recent days at UD. “we also know that these patterns [from intelligent agents, aka human agents] come from no other source. So, when we see those same patterns in nature, we conclude that they, too, were designed.” – StephenB This is the argument from analogy between human intelligence and non-human intelligence. It does not hold up to scrutiny once one realises that natural sciences and social sciences have different methodological rules. From above re: Human extension - "It begins with human beings acknowledging they/we are ‘reflexive’ creatures." To KF, who says: “If you want a method of inventive design look up TRIZ.” Go back and read again more carefully. I wrote the entry for ‘TRIZ’ at ISCID in 2003 and included the link above. Going further, I’ve studied it in two languages (including the original) and recently prepared a short course on TRIZ. Yes, obviously I agree it’s important! If you didn’t catch that then you’ve been ignoring or selectively reading what I say. The topic of TRIZ directly over-laps with non-IDM-ID ‘design theories’ that IDM-IDers don’t usually acknowledge. There is much more to ‘design theory’ than is represented solely in the IDM. But many IDM-IDers don’t care or don’t want to know because they are more interested in implications and apologetics than in reality. From what I can see, W. Dembski would like to do more with TRIZ, since he speaks about it in his 2004 book “The Design Revolution” Chapter 43, “Research Themes.” There he includes “6. Technological Evolution” and talks about “conceptual leaps (i.e. design).” But of course in TRIZ, we know and assume that the designers are human beings and that we are studying human design processes; not ultimate origins. This shows how TRIZ differs from IDM-ID. Dembski writes: “Mapping TRIZ only biological evolution provides a potentially fruitful avenue of design-theoretic research that is entirely consonant with the principle of methodological engineering…the process of technological evolution is itself designed” (2004: 313) Again, here we see a purposeful leaping analogy between human-made things and non-human made things; between human-intelligence and non-human-intelligence. Iow, IDM-ID's “design without (needing to speak about) a designer” may pretend to work in biology and (crudely in) archaeology, SETI, forensics (i.e. having to do with law). But this quite obviously does not work the same in engineering, computer science and human-social sciences, the latter in which we predominantly know who the ‘designers’ are and what they are doing. This is a very good reason for making a clear and rigorous distinction between human-made and non-human-made, between human-intelligence and non-human intelligence, which this survey was aimed to consider.Gregory
July 31, 2012
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--"I thought it would be fair to ask the question one last time, given the perspective I’ve read previously here at UD to the contrary." *From what source did you receive the "contrary" perspective? --"Do we have an “ID can but ID shouldn’t study human-made things or human designers or design processes” consensus here at UD?" *Is that the way you interpret the comments that you just read?StephenB
July 31, 2012
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Are there any negative answers to the survey question? Does anyone here at UD think that ID theory *does not* or *should not* apply to artifacts, i.e. to human-made things, but rather *only* to organisms, i.e. to non-human-made things? Before I respond to the helpful answers given already, I thought it would be fair to ask the question one last time, given the perspective I’ve read previously here at UD to the contrary. Do we have an “ID can but ID shouldn’t study human-made things or human designers or design processes” consensus here at UD?Gregory
July 31, 2012
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"Yes termite mounds, beaver dams and spider webs also apply- termites, beavers and spiders are all agencies capable of manipulating nature for their purpose." since all living things construct, therefore all living things are intelligent and are designed specifically? sergiosergiomendes
July 30, 2012
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In a world full of butchers, bakers and candle-stick makers, who would make the violin? There must have been someone else in that tub...Joe
July 30, 2012
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@ Gregory Yes. ID methodology can be applied successfully to things of either human or nonhuman origin. ID simply states that designed objects tend to exhibit reliable indicators that intelligent agency was involved in their creation (e.g. complex / functionally-specified info and/or mechanical complexity). ID is agnostic to the identity and nature of the designer, so it is irrelevant whether the designer is human or not. Without prior or empirical knowledge of the designer it is impossible to say with absolute certainty what or who the designer was. For instance, I have a beautiful violin sitting on a shelf - clearly a designed object given its carefully shaped parts, fitted together in such a way as to accomplish a function, namely producing music. Who made the violin - no idea. No label on it, and I didn't witness its construction. But it was designed.Optimus
July 30, 2012
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PS: If you want a method of inventive design look up TRIZ. If you want to get inside the head of designers, try Tesla's famed ability to build a novel electrical machine in his head, run it for weeks then take it apart and inspect for wear. Or visit with Einstein in a park squinting at the sun then thinking about taking a ride on a beam of light and rewriting physics as a result. Then there is the musical prodigy Bluejay, who HEARD his new symphonies playing and transcribed into music. I mean full symphonies.kairosfocus
July 30, 2012
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GS: Beavers work in teams to build highly successful dams (and other structures) that are site-specific, gravity or arch. These exhibit high FSCO, and we see a built-in albeit limited -- non verbal -- intelligence. Any identifiable entity capable of the like exhibits a certain degree of intelligence. And I would love to see R Daneel Olivaw. KFkairosfocus
July 30, 2012
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--Gregory: "Survey Question: Does ID theory (or ID methodology, ID science, etc.) properly apply to artifacts, i.e. to human-made things or not? I’m looking for a Yes or No answer and welcome your concise explanatory support for your Yes or No either way." Yes. We know for a fact that intelligent agents produce patterns that contain high levels of Functionally Specified Complex Information, and we also know that these patterns come from no other source. So, when we see those same patterns in nature, we conclude that they, too, were designed. Obviously, then, the process by which we draw that inference applies to artifacts as well as organisms. --"A social survey is a democratic process. Timaeus is attempting to subvert democracy by telling people what they must think and say about ID. This should be seen as unacceptable to anyone with a democratic spirit." Timaeus was simply trying to provide you with the correct answer about which there is no dispute. Joe, kairosfocus, Timaeus, myself, or anyone else acquainted with the literature, or even our FAQ, will answer the same way. There is no mystery here. Again, I hasten to remind you of the critical importance of understanding the methods that you presume to critique.StephenB
July 30, 2012
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Yes termite mounds, beaver dams and spider webs also apply- termites, beavers and spiders are all agencies capable of manipulating nature for their purpose. That said Intelligent Design is not about human and animal artifacts. Those just give us the observations and experiences required for a uniformitarian PoV- biological organisms appear designed because they were designed according to our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Joe
July 30, 2012
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Gregory, we continue the discussion: “The way to do it is with Human Extension. We make observations of ‘human nature’ and identify the ‘presupposed design’ in that ‘artefacts’ are human-made. There is no need to prove ‘artefacts’ *are* (speaking ‘ontologically’) human-made, i.e. ‘designed.’ It is redundant to say, ‘Look, a designed artefact.’ Timaeus agreed with this meaning of ‘artifact.’” *You have yet to present the step-by-step, Human Extension process and show how it indicates that a human artifact was made. You have promised to develop such a methodology in your next book, and I certainly believe that you will make that attempt. As it stands, though, you appear to have nothing to put on the table. Notice, though, that we are not, at the moment, discussing the process of human extension. We are discussing your critique of, and recommendations for, ID’s process. In that context, you are insisting that ID begins its methodology with the presupposition of imago Dei and that it does not begin with the observation of data. Further, you insist that ID should acknowledge that practice to the world. So I am asking you to show me exactly where that happens. --“Archaeology is a study of objects known to be human-made; it does not address “the question of life’s origins” and it is not, strictly speaking, a ‘natural science.’ Archaeology is therefore not a field that is relevant to IDM-ID, except by analogy with human-made things. It is this ‘human intelligence’ vs. ‘non-human intelligence’ analogy which forks Stephen C. Meyer in his philosophy of (natural) science, and which Steve Fuller importantly raised in his response in this thread” *If imago Dei is theologically true, and we both agree that it is, then we should, from a philosophical/theological perspective, expect that our art would, in some modest way, would resemble God’s art. So, if human design leaves Functionally Specified Complex Information, and if Functionally Specified Complex Information exists, in nature, then nature’s design seems like a perfectly reasonable inference. Notice again, though, that the process by which I infer design is empirical, that is, I didn’t presuppose imago Dei in making that inference, thought I certainly hold that view theologically. Notice, also, that our theology is illuminating our science, as it is supposed to, but it is not intruding on its methods. The inference component comes from the bottom up, but the faith component comes from the top down. The whole point is that the former confirms the latter. Faith and reason are compatible, but they are not the same thing. “You are looking for a simple Yes or No answer as a conclusion of ‘the ID model/method’: was it designed or not? I am interested in that too (wrt human-made things), but also in much more than that. I want to be able to study the designing process and also the designer(s) (small-d = human designers). Human Extension methodology (HEM) allows me and anyone else to do that; ID methodology does not.” ID has a process with recognizable limitations. Any legitimate, rigorous process, must, by definition, affirm its objective and negate all other objectives. In that same sense, it can be critiqued for what it cannot do. In ID’s case, the paradigms used cannot describe the design process. *Any researcher would be interested in the “how” of design, but at this juncture, no one has been able to conceive of a scientific paradigm that could achieve that goal. ID’s claims and goals are modest precisely because its paradigms are conscious of their limitations. By contrast, the claims of Human Extension seem extravagant to me since there appears to be no process that could take us through the steps necessary for arriving at the hoped for knowledge. In that sense, I cannot critique a process has not yet been developed or even articulated. The ID proponent can justifiably turn to you and say, “physician, heal thyself.” Spend your intellectual capital developing your own paradigm and you will more clearly understand how to critique ID’s paradigm. “The purpose of Human Extension is to address the question of ‘extensions of man(kind) and to discern an answer to this question: was it human made or not and, if so, how was it made, when where and why.” *Perhaps, but you have not presented the methodology that could serve that purpose. I am not criticizing the effort or the goal (which seems noble enough to me). The point is that the “how to” (the methodology) just isn’t there. "IDM-ID doesn’t care about (or at least, gives no attention to) how, when, where and why; that’s just not a part of its current mandate. This is a major difference between these two approaches.” *Clearly, ID knows what it doesn’t know—an eminently valuable virtue. The great danger comes from those who think they know what they don’t know (or those who think they have a method when they don’t). “Please remember, StephenB, what Timaeus openly admitted: “Physical processes we can talk about. Design processes, I don’t see how.” Additionally, “The ‘design’ takes place,” he claims, “inside the mind(s) of the designer(s).” But we’re not allowed according to IDM-ID to look “inside the mind(s) of the designer(s),” like we are with Human Extension, which is more psychologically than cosmologically-oriented. So, in terms of learning about ‘intelligent agency’ and ‘design process,’ Human Extension clearly has more explanatory power than IDM-ID. This should not be a debatable or shameful proposition, since you folks have already stated that ‘ID methodology’ just isn’t about ‘design process’ or identifying the ‘designer(s)’ of ‘things that *are* designed.’ *I question the proposition that we can look inside n anyone’s mind from a scientific perspective—Divine or human. Can anyone know how Bach conceived and designed the "Goldberg Variations?" Could Bach have known? How could ID explain the unexplainable? Conversely, I cannot comment on HE’s explanatory power since I know of no rigorous HE process that could do the explaining, though I am open-minded enough to seriously consider any such offering that doesn’t appear in the form of a promissory note. “In my view, IDM-ID *both* presupposes *and* ought to include imago Dei forthrightly in the ‘scientific’ and ‘cultural renewal’ aspects of its mission. There is no contradiction in these two things” *This brings us back to my original and ongoing challenge. If you think ID presupposes imago Dei in its paradigms (or methods), then show me when and where it happens. Provide a specific example. “Otoh, if we are speaking about ‘just the science,’ as Timaeus often attempts to do (though he is not a scientist), e.g. stating “ID theory…will necessarily be focused on questions of natural science,” then what needs to be stated up front is that IDM-ID, in its original formulation, by Charles Thaxton, Stephen C. Meyer, Philipp Johnson, William Dembski, Michael Behe, Paul Nelson (YEC), Jonathan Wells, et al. *all* interpret the world not just with scientific eyes, but also through the eyes of faith. The two (science and faith) cannot be separated artificially by objectivistic claims to ‘just (natural) science,’ although many people try to do this, even today.” *When the Astrophysicist “discovers” the finely-tuned constants of the universe, he is doing science and using scientific methods; When the Cosmologist “draws an inference to the “Big Bang, he is doing science and using scientific methods. Faith does not provide those insights. Religion may well anticipate them or inspire the project, but the finding is solely scientific because it is based solely on observation. Science involves a replicable process. I have applied it many times in the laboratory. “This is why I view ID as (properly) a ‘science, philosophy, religion (or theology)’ discourse, ‘by nature’ or ‘by character’ of ID as a knowledge-seeking enterprise. And it is also what differentiates my view of ID from IDM-ID as currently formulated.” *You are conflating the INTRA-disciplinary, scientific process with the INTER-disciplinary dialogue between science, philosophy, and religion. This is a problem. “From the “legitimate presuppositions to science” StephenB highlights from William Lane Craig, #s 3-9 can all be said to imply imago Dei, which is consistent with Craig’s openly and apologetically Christian worldview.” *You are confusing a presupposition with an implication. Big Bang Cosmology "implies" a creator. That does mean that it "presupposes" a creator. “Because Craig’s list is ‘extra-scientific’ by definition, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever in recognising reflexive features of his list. That is, as a Christian, Craig’s list makes sense as coming from a person who (believes he) is created imago Dei; the same is true of the founding/coining of ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ theory.” *You are confusing Craig’s capacity to reason (imago Dei) with the substantive fruits of his reason (his arguments and the facts presented). His list makes sense as coming from anyone, including those who do not believe they were created imago Dei. The presuppositions for science are the presuppositions for science--period “The two are necessarily intertwined unless or until they unravel. ‘IDM-ID,’ the way I use it refers to ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ (both are sometimes meant, with the common acronym = ID) as expressed by people who are advocates or proponents of ID according to the meanings of the Discovery Institute’s CSC and its leading Fellows, several of whom are mentioned above.” *You labor under the misconception that every idea that resides in your mind must automatically correspond to reality simply because it resides in your mind. This is a very dangerous assumption and a highly undisciplined practice. It is the least effective of all methodologies. “There are non-IDM-ID advocates and proponents of ID, like Mike Gene, John Lennox and Steve Fuller, who mean something differently when they speak of ID than IDM-ID, with its openly political and ‘cultural renewal’ aspects.” *Here’s a novel idea. Why not just listen carefully to what each man says, regardless of which camp you think he belongs to, and then take his words as evidence for what he means—as opposed to putting your own words in his mouth. “Yes, the IDM and whatever methodology(ies) it uses are two different things; but they are not mutually exclusive because ‘methodology’ is used by persons and does not exist in a vacuum.” *If they are different, then you should not treat them as if they were the same. “It is worth noting that StephenB speaks of ID methodology, while Timaeus speaks of ID theory, which is of course not the same thing.” *Are you suggesting that our arguments are not consistent? Or, is this another argument by insinuation? “So, unless StephenB is saying something like, “Forget the founders and leaders of IDM-ID, we at UD and I in particular are/am taking control of ‘the methodology’ by ourselves/myself,” then IDM-ID logically remains as the most-talked-about and ‘most common’ meaning of ID. But it is not the only meaning of ID, which is why I clarify this by denoting IDM-ID.” *No, StephenB is saying that those who criticize ID methodology should learn something about it so that their objections will be pertinent. *I define ‘synthesis,’ therefore, as interdisciplinary cooperation between the various branches of knowledge in the pursuit of the one truth. Clearly, theology (and philosophy) can illuminate science in many ways—and vice versa. “Yet, above, you wrote: “The way that science, philosophy, and religion should interact is clear: Dialogue, yes; synthesis, no.” *Yes, because I was responding to your definition of “synthesis,” which allows for theology to tamper with science’s methods. My definition, however, corrects that difficulty. I am trying to define the proper interdisciplinary relationship between the science, philosophy, and religion. If you are entitled to reframe ID’s well-defined concepts in your own words even to the point of distorting their meaning, then I am surely entitled to define more precisely the words you have left undefined.StephenB
July 30, 2012
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A social survey is a democratic process. Timaeus is attempting to subvert democracy by telling people what they must think and say about ID. This should be seen as unacceptable to anyone with a democratic spirit. The survey question is direct, clear and basic. It regards what people view as the proper domain for ID theories. Timaeus has given his one voice; he should now rest his pregnant tongue and be patient awaiting the results of the survey. Democracy affords everyone a voice to contribute; attempting to speak on behalf of ‘ID people’ when no mandate has been given does not. Since the people who visit this site are quite capable of expressing their own voice without Timaeus’ persuasion, it is hoped that even as they may be influenced by Timaeus’ words, that they would still openly share their own thoughts, as democracy allows. Joe says: “yes ID properly applies to artifacts.” kairosfocus thinks animal-made things are part of ID theory’s proper domain. Timaeus says “From the start it [ID theory] has been about questions of biological and cosmic origins.” It ‘can be’ applied to human artifacts, he claims, but isn’t supposed to be. StephenB expresses the same 'ability' for ID theory/methodology to be applied to artifacts, but there is still a lack of clarity re: his views. So, there are differences of opinions about the proper domain of ID theory/methodology, which I view as a healthy thing. I am not trying to “redefine it [ID] as the science that deals with human design.” I am simply trying to clarify the proper domain of IDM-ID by asking people here. UD is a site where ‘ID people’ participate. This survey can thus help us to understand the beliefs of ID supporters and proponents about ID theory. Let freedom reign, beyond the divertive tactics of ‘Timaeus,’ who is trying to force his opinion on everyone re: what they should think about ID. Survey Question: Does ID theory (or ID methodology, ID science, etc.) properly apply to artifacts, i.e. to human-made things or not? I’m looking for a Yes or No answer and welcome your concise explanatory support for your Yes or No either way.Gregory
July 30, 2012
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Thanks for your answer to the survey question, Joe. That's exactly the kind of answer, of one position or another, I was inviting.Gregory
July 30, 2012
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Gregory's question (75) is easily answered; no "survey" is needed. *Of course* the methods of design detection employed by ID proponents to talk about biological and cosmic origins can also be applied to human artifacts and other results of human activity. For example, we can look at an odd-shaped stone and deduce that it is an arrowhead, and therefore was shaped by some human hand. However, confirming the human origin of artifacts is not what ID -- capital ID -- is about. From the start it has been about questions of biological and cosmic origins. A veterinarian has knowledge that would enable him or her to deal with certain human injuries and illnesses, but that does not make a veterinarian into an M.D. The veterinarian's interest is not in dealing with human injuries and illnesses, but in dealing with animal injuries and illnesses. It would therefore be foolish to redefine veterinary science as "the science that deals with human injuries and illnesses." And that is what Gregory is trying to do with ID -- redefine it as the science that deals with human design, even though ID people, though knowing something about human design, are focused on designs in nature that appear to come from non-human minds. ID -- capital ID -- is happy to leave any general "phenomenology of human design" to people like Gregory. On the other hand, "Human Extension," as defined by its leading (only?) proponent, Gregory, consciously eschews making the design inferences that ID is particularly interested in -- design inferences concerning natural things. It therefore *cannot* embrace ID in its project. Another way of putting it would be: "intelligent design" -- lower-case "id" -- embraces both "Human Extension" and "ID" -- upper case "Intelligent Design." The ID proponents are interested in upper case ID; Gregory is interested in Human Extension; both activities could be thought of as divisions of "id." Gregory should find this distinction helpful, since he has, scores of times, distinguished between "id" and "ID." Indeed, what seems inconsistent -- if not downright hypocritical -- in Gregory's interminable argument on this thread is that, in the past, he has been positively scornful of "ID" and encouraging only of "id"; yet now he wants to hijack the term "ID" to support his project of Human Extension. What happened to your utter condemnation of upper-case ID, Gregory? Why was it formerly a misguided term, that should have been replaced by "id," whereas now it is a good term, if interpreted in terms of your own theory of Human Extension? It's as if you recognize that ID now has some cultural currency, and that your tune has changed to "If you can't beat 'em, co-opt 'em." Well, you aren't going to co-opt our term. Not even with the help of Steve Fuller (whose understanding of ID is not the same as yours in any case). Cultural usage has been established, and it can no more be changed by two people than the sea could be pushed back by King Canute. Give it up, Gregory. You're spitting against the wind.Timaeus
July 30, 2012
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Gregory:
ID theory: to be or not to be…about (non-human-made) organisms or (human-made) artifacts or both?
We use our knowledge of cause and effect relationships- vis-a-vis our study of artifacts and nature, operating freely. So yes ID properly applies to artifacts as they give us the knowledge required to be able to differentiate between nature, operating freely and when some agency was involved. And that gets to the root of Newton's four rules of scientific investigation- no adding unnecessary entities.Joe
July 30, 2012
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Do you allow participant surveys at UD? If so, then I’d like to make one now, while waiting for StephenB to respond also on this question. One might say I don’t bruise easily, but I confuse easily when quite a few people are saying different things and one person is telling (nay, berating) me that obviously they’re all saying the same thing. ID theory: to be or not to be…about (non-human-made) organisms or (human-made) artifacts or both? First, to the terminology regarding ‘intelligent design’, here is what has been written so far in this thread: “the ID model,” “the ID methodology,” “the ID theory,” “the ID process,” “ID science,” “the design inference process,” “the design detection process,” “ID’s design-detection methodologies,” etc. (& ‘ID people’ 64 times by the same person!) LYO suggests ID theory actually can be applied to artifacts (though he is not an IDer), highlighting the definition of ID on this blog – “features of the universe and of living things”. StephenB seems to allow for an ID approach to both organisms and artifacts, but his meaning imo is still not clear. If ID theory can study 'artifacts,' then it can study designers and their/our designing process too! kairosfocus speaks of beaver dams (but not on the level of human-made things). Nevertheless, surely everyone here, scholar or layperson, agrees that ‘artifacts’ are ‘features of the universe,’ so that poses the challenge of my question. Human-made things: Was the Berlin Wall ‘intelligently designed,’ was the Protestant Reformation (and the Counter-Reformation) ‘intelligently designed,’ was the atomic bomb ‘intelligently designed,’ is vast human inequality and poverty on a global scale ‘intelligently designed,’ etc.? Here then is my Uncommon Descent survey question: In your opinion, reader, contributor, lurker, does ID theory (or ID methodology, ID science, etc.) properly apply to artifacts, i.e. to human-made things or not? I’m looking for a Yes or No answer and welcome your concise explanatory support for your Yes or No either way.Gregory
July 30, 2012
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Gregory wrote (72): "The two (science and faith) cannot be separated artificially by objectivistic claims to ‘just (natural) science,’ although many people try to do this, even today." Interesting. This is exactly what BioLogos, and most American TE/EC people do -- compartmentalize "truths known via science" and "truths known by faith" -- so that the two can never contradict each other. Yet I never heard Gregory once complain about the strict separation of science and faith advocated by the theistic evolutionists. It's only when ID people make such distinctions that he objects. I wonder why there's a double standard. Be that as it may, I think there *are* places where truths of science *can* be separated from truths of faith or even the influence of faith. "A pressure of X thousand pounds per square foot will burst Boulder Dam" is a scientific statement which does not require any religious assumptions, not even about the image of God. It requires only the assumption that nature is regular. Similarly, Mike Behe's books -- which Gregory refuses to read, though he doesn't refrain from talking about Behe -- offer a discussion about the probability of certain evolutionary events. There are no religious assumptions in any of Behe's discussions. The only assumption is that nature is regular. If Gregory responds that the regularity of nature is a religious assumption, it would be more accurately described as a metaphysical assumption. But either way, it was held by the ancient Greeks, who had not read Genesis on the image of God, so it's not a Christian assumption, and it's Christian assumptions that Gregory is talking about. But it's useless arguing with Gregory. Being a grand visionary who traffics in big general concepts, he doesn't like getting his hands dirty with details, and that's why he refuses to read ID books, but those of us who have read ID technical books know that there are *no* religious arguments in them. Gregory cannot prove otherwise unless he reads the books, and since he refuses to read the books, he must yield the point by default. But he won't do so. At that point, what can one say, but: "You don't know what you are talking about, because you haven't done the necessary homework," and walk away from the discussion? Gregory also writes: "This is why I view ID as (properly) a ‘science, philosophy, religion (or theology)’ discourse, ‘by nature’ or ‘by character’ of ID as a knowledge-seeking enterprise. And it is also what differentiates my view of ID from IDM-ID as currently formulated." How Gregory views ID doesn't matter. He doesn't get to define the term. The people who get to define the term are the people who gave the term its current meaning. It means what they say it means, whether Gregory likes it or not. And they are not going to change the definition one iota, no matter how long Gregory fulminates on the subject. Nor should they. Gregory is an outsider who has contributed precisely zero help to ID; and he has no natural-science training which would cause him to be respected by ID people, and further, he won't even read ID people's technical writings, and show the ID people that he understands them, which gives them even less cause to respect his opinions. Even here at UD, the only people listening to him are ID supporters, not ID scientists. Gauger, Axe, Sternberg, Behe, Dembski, Meyer, etc. are completely ignoring everything he writes here -- as they have always completely ignored everything he has written under three or four different names on various web sites. They have no reason to care what a sociologist at an Eastern European university thinks about biochemistry, probability theory, cosmic fine-tuning, non-coding DNA, information theory, etc. So he is simply wasting his breath. The meaning of the term ID will not change. Gregory will sell maybe a few hundred "copies" of his e-book online; Mike Behe's first book alone sold a quarter of a million copies, and tens of thousands of copies of other ID books are in people's homes and in libraries. He has about as much chance of changing the meaning of "ID" in the public mind as he would have of changing the meaning of "gay" back to its original sense by writing an e-book about that. He would do better to stop banging his head against the wall, accede to the ID people's own use of the term, and sell "Human Extension" on its own merits, and not try to connect it in any way with ID. But I don't expect that he will listen to pragmatic advice. Gregory reminds me very much of Don Quixote.Timaeus
July 30, 2012
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One quick add-on: “I define ‘synthesis,’ therefore, as interdisciplinary cooperation between the various branches of knowledge in the pursuit of the one truth. Clearly, theology (and philosophy) can illuminate science in many ways—and vice versa.” – StephenB Yet, above, you wrote: “The way that science, philosophy, and religion should interact is clear: Dialogue, yes; synthesis, no.” Now you seem to have changed (or re-defined) your position and are suggesting ‘Yes’ to ‘synthesis’ between science, philosophy and religion (or theology) as ‘interdisciplinary cooperation.’ Again, if you do believe this, I’m glad to hear it! This is what Steve Fuller and I are promoting (e.g. his ‘divine technology’ and my ‘human extension’) and which ‘ID-as-natural-science-only’ fails to enable or embrace.Gregory
July 30, 2012
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Thanks for your patience with a slightly slower pace than usual at UD. StephenB, unfortunately we’ve hit a snag and need some clarification to be able to move forward. You have accused me of contradiction and now I must return the favour. “Yes, ID is primarily concerned with organisms, though I hasten to add that the method can be applied to any artifact.” – StephenB It looks like you’re now hesitating on your agreement in #53, with a defence behind something called ‘the method.’ I’ll turn to that a bit later, but let me address your concern here. “You seem to think that it is possible to have it both ways (to begin with an observation of nature and also to presuppose design) which would seem to indicate that you know of a way to do it. I am simply asking you to show me that way.” - StephenB The way to do it is with Human Extension. We make observations of ‘human nature’ and identify the ‘presupposed design’ in that ‘artefacts’ are human-made. There is no need to prove ‘artefacts’ *are* (speaking ‘ontologically’) human-made, i.e. ‘designed.’ It is redundant to say, ‘Look, a designed artefact.’ Timaeus agreed with this meaning of ‘artifact.’ I wrote: “It was my understanding that ‘artifacts’ are by definition ‘designed,’ i.e. by human designers. I thought ID was instead focussed on ‘organisms’ and other biological objects (e.g. bacterial flagellum) – non-human-made things, not on ‘artifacts’ – human-made things.” You seemed to agree (in #53), but now want ID to (be able to) focus on artifacts too. Unfortunately, you can’t have it both ways, StephenB, when speaking of 'THE ID method'. So, which is it? (Survey to come on this important question.) Archaeology is a study of objects known to be human-made; it does not address “the question of life’s origins” and it is not, strictly speaking, a ‘natural science.’ Archaeology is therefore not a field that is relevant to IDM-ID, except by analogy with human-made things. It is this ‘human intelligence’ vs. ‘non-human intelligence’ analogy which forks Stephen C. Meyer in his philosophy of (natural) science, and which Steve Fuller importantly raised in his response in this thread. From ‘the ID model’ [cf. method?] according to StephenB: “The purpose of the ID model is to address the question of life’s origins and discern the answer, design or no design.” You are looking for a simple Yes or No answer as a conclusion of ‘the ID model/method’: was it designed or not? I am interested in that too (wrt human-made things), but also in much more than that. I want to be able to study the designing process and also the designer(s) (small-d = human designers). Human Extension methodology (HEM) allows me and anyone else to do that; ID methodology does not. “The purpose of Human Extension is to address the question of ‘extensions of man(kind) and to discern an answer to this question: was it human made or not and, if so, how was it made, when where and why.” IDM-ID doesn’t care about (or at least, gives no attention to) how, when, where and why; that’s just not a part of its current mandate. This is a major difference between these two approaches. Please remember, StephenB, what Timaeus openly admitted: “Physical processes we can talk about. Design processes, I don’t see how.” Additionally, “The ‘design’ takes place,” he claims, “inside the mind(s) of the designer(s).” But we’re not allowed according to IDM-ID to look “inside the mind(s) of the designer(s),” like we are with Human Extension, which is more psychologically than cosmologically-oriented. So, in terms of learning about ‘intelligent agency’ and ‘design process,’ Human Extension clearly has more explanatory power than IDM-ID. This should not be a debatable or shameful proposition, since you folks have already stated that ‘ID methodology’ just isn’t about ‘design process’ or identifying the ‘designer(s)’ of 'things that *are* designed.' “all designs originate in and proceed from minds, not from pencils, drafting boards, organizational meetings, etc.”- Timaeus If Timaeus had read McLuhan and grasped his work with understanding, he would realise that this is exactly the point of ‘understanding media’ as ‘the extensions of man.’ Neither McLuhan nor I are discounting minds; that is not the neo-Thomist way. We’re talking about the decisions and actions of minds(, hearts) and bodies in society, as they/we are involved in physical/embodied processes and activities, rather than just in the Platonic, abstract, unembodied, detached way that Timaeus is presenting of ‘design/Design.’ Here ‘extension’ is closer to what Timaeus means by ‘creation,’ i.e. the ‘design’ takes place before the ‘creation,’ the latter which actualises the former’s potency. That is why I speak of ‘human-making,’ fully acknowledging that this does not lay any claim at all to interpreting or navigating ‘origins of life’ studies or ‘origins of biological information.’ Human Extension has an alternative purpose, which is what this thread was designed and created-extended to show. Now I will briefly answer what appears to StephenB as a contradiction in my approach. There are other issues in his #69 worth addressing later and I appreciate his courtesy in confronting Human Extension directly and wrestling with my word choice (including neologisms), even as it differs from his. In my view, IDM-ID *both* presupposes *and* ought to include imago Dei forthrightly in the ‘scientific’ and ‘cultural renewal’ aspects of its mission. There is no contradiction in these two things. Of course, this would not appeal the same way to Muslims as it would to Christians and Jews, but that seems to be a part of the trade-off and there are other features of ID that could appeal to Muslims in the cooperative dialogue between science, philosophy and religion (or theology). In so far as the goal of IDM-ID is to appeal to agnostics or to those who are anti-spirituality or anti-soul, i.e. to operate as an apologetic tool inspiring cultural renewal (against materialism, naturalism, scientism, reductionism, biologism, nihilism, etc.), then Yes, it simply needs to put more emphasis on the religious roots of the scientific enterprise, including ‘ID (proto-)science,’ which Fuller among many others supports. Otoh, if we are speaking about ‘just the science,’ as Timaeus often attempts to do (though he is not a scientist), e.g. stating “ID theory…will necessarily be focused on questions of natural science,” then what needs to be stated up front is that IDM-ID, in its original formulation, by Charles Thaxton, Stephen C. Meyer, Philipp Johnson, William Dembski, Michael Behe, Paul Nelson (YEC), Jonathan Wells, et al. *all* interpret the world not just with scientific eyes, but also through the eyes of faith. The two (science and faith) cannot be separated artificially by objectivistic claims to ‘just (natural) science,’ although many people try to do this, even today. This is why I view ID as (properly) a ‘science, philosophy, religion (or theology)’ discourse, ‘by nature’ or ‘by character’ of ID as a knowledge-seeking enterprise. And it is also what differentiates my view of ID from IDM-ID as currently formulated. (But Meyer’s reported admission to Fuller in Cambridge gives hope for a new path forward for IDM-ID in this respect!) From the “legitimate presuppositions to science” StephenB highlights from William Lane Craig, #s 3-9 can all be said to imply imago Dei, which is consistent with Craig’s openly and apologetically Christian worldview. Because Craig’s list is ‘extra-scientific’ by definition, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever in recognising reflexive features of his list. That is, as a Christian, Craig’s list makes sense as coming from a person who (believes he) is created imago Dei; the same is true of the founding/coining of ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ theory. It makes sense also that I now answer StephenB’s concern: “As long as you continue to use the phrase IDM-ID, implying that the ID movement is synonymous with ID methodology, your analysis will be faulty.” The two are necessarily intertwined unless or until they unravel. ‘IDM-ID,’ the way I use it refers to ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ (both are sometimes meant, with the common acronym = ID) as expressed by people who are advocates or proponents of ID according to the meanings of the Discovery Institute’s CSC and its leading Fellows, several of whom are mentioned above. There are non-IDM-ID advocates and proponents of ID, like Mike Gene, John Lennox and Steve Fuller, who mean something differently when they speak of ID than IDM-ID, with its openly political and ‘cultural renewal’ aspects. Since the term ‘intelligent design’ pre-exists the IDM, the term ‘IDM-ID’ is meant as a helpful way to make clear distinctions based on the various views people hold. Yes, the IDM and whatever methodology(ies) it uses are two different things; but they are not mutually exclusive because ‘methodology’ is used by persons and does not exist in a vacuum. It is worth noting that StephenB speaks of ID methodology, while Timaeus speaks of ID theory, which is of course not the same thing. If one acknowledges there actually *is* an IDM (which Timaeus does not seem to wish to do, stuck as he is on debating ‘just the science,’ refusing any human connection involved with a ‘movement’), that is enough already to justify the term IDM-ID. The IDM invented ‘ID methodology’ or ‘ID methodologies’ or ‘ID hypotheses’ or ‘ID theories’ or ‘ID science,’ or ‘ID philosophy’ or ‘ID worldview,’ etc. – this means basically that the leaders of the IDM designed and created-extended those things (e.g. in books, articles, institutions, clubs, etc.). So, unless StephenB is saying something like, “Forget the founders and leaders of IDM-ID, we at UD and I in particular are/am taking control of ‘the methodology’ by ourselves/myself,” then IDM-ID logically remains as the most-talked-about and ‘most common’ meaning of ID. But it is not the only meaning of ID, which is why I clarify this by denoting IDM-ID. Hopefully that helps in the communicative realm, StephenB. I await your clarification on ‘organisms’ vs. ‘artifacts’ with interest.Gregory
July 30, 2012
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Timaeus, thank you for your coments @70. I appreciate it. In keeping with some of your points, two things occur to me: [A] I think ID could benefit from a PR standpoint by adopting one element of Steve Fuller’s approach as I understand it. While the ID scientist, by virtue of his phenomenological approach, cannot pass judgment on the nature of the designer, he can certainly put on his philosopher’s hat long enough to provide a common-sense interpretation of what can appear to be, but is not, in my judgment, a concession to materialist ideology. The ID proponent could, for example, say something like this: “The archeologist , who detects design in an ancient hunter’s spear, cannot , by virtue of his methodological limitations, identify the hunter. Similarly, the ID scientist, who detects design in nature, cannot, by virtue of those same limitations, identify the designer or even comment on the designer’s nature. In that same context, he cannot, in principle, rule out a material designer—not because he believes that it is or even could be so--but because his experience-based methodology, which cannot probe beyond the nature of effects, requires an agnostic response, in the same way that the experience-based methodology that informs theories of Big Bang Cosmology and Astrophysical Fine Tuning requires an agnostic response.” “HOWEVER: I am not only a scientist, I am also a human being (Gregory will like this) capable a reason and equipped with the capacity to examine issues from the higher perspective of philosophical analysis. I know that the designer I detected through scientific methods must be personal and cannot be material. If the first cause of the universe was material, then the universe, as matter, would also have to be eternal, but know that it is not. Further, we know that matter once began to exist, that it could not have been its own cause, and must, therefore, have been caused by an immaterial being. Further still, a material, eternal law c could not cause the universe to come into being because a law can do only what it has always done, and is not, therefore, flexible enough to change its behavior and perform a creative act.” In other words, ID scientists ought to calm the concerns of neo-Thomists (and other Christian observers) who know that the creator of the universe cannot be possibly be material and dramatize the point that they are NOT indulging in materialist assumptions, ever for the sake of argument. In other words, they must press the difference between scientific methodology and philosophical reasoning and celebrate the latter with the same enthusiasm as the former. [B] I am not yet clear on Steve Fuller’s broader argument. To be more precise, I am still trying to figure out if he is stumping for a better dialogue among science, philosophy, and religion (sounds good to me) or a new methodology (how exactly would this be possible and what does the finished product look like). I cannot find the answer in his writings, Even so, I think a piece of the puzzle may be found in a you tube video entitled, “Professor Steve Fuller talks about Intelligent Design.” If you have time to listen to it (it’s only about 6 minutes), I would be interested in your interpretation. I would especially be interested in evaluating the concept of biology as “Divine technology.” I am not entirely closing my mind the idea. I just want to be clear about what he is proposingStephenB
July 29, 2012
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StephenB: Number 69 was a well-argued post. I like the way you defend the Classical and Christian rationality which has sustained the West, and oppose various positions which tend to damage or obscure sound intellectual distinctions. As far as I can tell, Steve Fuller is arguing that Christianity provides a powerful motivation for looking at the world as designed, but is not advocating that ID proponents actually intermingle theological propositions with scientific arguments. With Gregory, it is harder to tell, because he shifts his emphasis from post to post. Sometimes he seems to be saying that all ID people need to do is publically acknowledge their Christian motivation, and then go on with their scientific work; other times he seems to be demanding something more of ID people, but what that something more is, is not clear. It appears to have something to do with acknowledging the human origin of the concept of design, and it appears to imply that there is something very suspect about applying "design" to natural beings such as organisms. If the latter is the case, then Gregory is contradicting himself, saying on the one hand that Axe, Gauger, etc. can get on with their work, and that is fine with him, but on the other that the ID movement's conception of design is somehow incompetent, naive, or misapplied when employed to determine the origins of natural things. I don't know whether this confusion is strategic on Gregory's part -- e.g., whether he is deliberately altering what he says just to "yank our chains" or for some other manipulative purpose -- or whether it reflects confusion in Gregory's mind over what exactly his problem with ID science is. In any case, I'll now restate my position: 1. There is nothing wrong with a humanities/social science analysis of the phenomenon of "design" (or related concepts, such as purpose); I'm quite happy for Gregory to spend his time doing such work. 2. Gregory has not made the case -- hasn't even provided one concrete instance -- where some result of such a humanities/social science analysis would help the ID people make their arguments stronger. 3. I suspect that this is not simply because it's hard to imagine how Gregory's analysis *could* help ID arguments; I suspect Gregory doesn't really *want* to help ID arguments, because he is not really sympathetic with the project. He's already admitted to a belief in the designed origin of life that springs from faith, not the analysis of living organisms, and he won't comment on whether any further design was needed after the origin of life; plus, he says he has no interest in biological questions or natural science questions generally. I have the distinct impression that if Behe, Dembski, Meyer, etc. were all kidnapped by aliens and taken to the Andromeda Galaxy, never to return, and all ID research stopped, that Gregory would not feel that anything bad had happened to the study of biological and cosmic origins, or that anything bad had happened to the Christian counterattack against the new atheism. In short, Gregory is not on our side. 4. However, he does want to hijack the label "ID", giving it an "alternative" interpretation, and attach such prestige as the term has acquired to his own social-science project. I see no reason why ID people should let him do that unopposed. They've worked long and hard and against fierce opposition, and often at great personal cost (e.g., permanent denial of academic employment, something Gregory has not so far had to suffer), and they've done that to advance our understanding of nature and to remove bad arguments against religious faith. They don't deserve to have their brand name stolen by a social scientist who basically doesn't care whether their project lives or dies.Timaeus
July 28, 2012
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Gregory, let's probe a little more deeply into the subject matter. “ Thus, we are in agreement that ID is “focussed on ‘organisms’ and other biological objects (e.g. bacterial flagellum) – non-human-made things, not on ‘artifacts’ – human-made things.” *Yes, ID is primarily concerned with organisms, though I hasten to add that the method can be applied to any artifact. That is why I sometimes allude to archeology’s capacity to discern design in an ancient hunter’s spear. “Human Extension involves a simple, single methodology, which will be released in my second book (really first one, the first is more like a long e-pamphlet – about 60 pages), hopefully in 2013. Indeed, there I call it Human Extension Methodology (HEM). If you’d like to adopt that acronym for it, you are welcome, but there’s no need to get ahead of ourselves.” *We can certainly look forward to that day. What you have presented so far, though, does not rise to the level of a rigorous process. My reason for raising the issue was not to find fault with your general approach, which may have possibilities, but to point out that there is not, as of yet, any sociological process by which the ID methodology (as opposed to the ID cultural movement) can be rationally criticized or evaluated. As long as you continue to use the phrase IDM-ID, implying that the ID movement is synonymous with ID methodology, your analysis will be faulty “Again, I’m not interested in trying to “provide a better one.” (Improvement on ID’s methodology). I’m not convinced that ‘design’ is something that can be ‘empirically proven/detected in nature’ … *unless* ‘human nature’ is involved ‘reflexively’ in the process.” *I understand that you question the claim that ID models are effective at detecting design. However, you seem to have presented two incompatible themes: At times, you insist that the ID process ALREADY presupposes the notion of “imago Dei”, which is why I presented the ID model to make it clear that no such presupposition exists in the methodology. There is no assumption of imago Dei, for example, in the explanatory filter. It just isn’t there. This is not a matter of interpretation; it is a matter of fact. At other times, though, you seem to argue, in contrary fashion, that ID OUGHT TO INCLUDE the notion of imago Dei and get into the spirit of an interdisciplinary synthesis. In that sense, you appear to be saying that ID could improve its methodology by making that inclusion. Accordingly, I have made it clear, I think, that the ID model simply cannot incorporate such a theme and, at the same time, remain an empirical process. By contrast, you seem to think that it is possible to have it both ways (to begin with an observation of nature and also to presuppose design) which would seem to indicate that you know of a way to do it. I am simply asking you to show me that way. It seems evident that if you cannot provide a specific example of what that new and improved methodology would look like, from beginning to end, then you have no warrant for saying that any such improvement is possible, much less advisable. Yes. Christians do believe that humans are designed with a design detector (they are made in God’s image with the gift of a rational soul) and are situated in a designed universe ripe for design detection. Clearly, this conception launched the modern scientific enterprise. Also, this same belief system does, no doubt, inspire most ID scientists and ID philosophers of the past to do their work. Still, a psychological motivation is one thing; a metaphysical presupposition is something else. What we are discussing pertains to the matter of what happens after the ID thinker, duly motivated, begins his work. Aquinas, for example, certainly believed in a designer God, but no such presupposition exists in his famous arguments for God’s existence. His faith did not in any way drive his methodology. Otherwise, his so-called proofs would have been trivial tautologies—the conclusion would have already been built into the presupposition. That is why he always made it a point to begin with observation and reason his way back to the Creator. It is for the same reason that the ID process begins with an observation. The objective is not to presuppose the cause but to search for the cause. Otherwise, there would be no need to conduct the investigation since the conclusion would be embedded in the presupposition. ID's approach is to allow the evidence to speak for itself so that the scientist can follow where it leads. By contrast, ID's competitors and critics, typically begin with a faith commitment and a strong resolve to lead the evidence in the direction of the hoped-for conclusion. Granted, some legitimate presuppositions for science do exist and William Lane Craig has provided a comprehensive list as follows: (1)The existence of a theory-independent, external world; (2) the orderly nature of the external world; (3) the knowability of the external world; (4) the existence of truth; (5) the laws of logic; (6) the reliability of our cognitive and sensory faculties to serve as truth gatherers and as a source of justified true beliefs in our intellectual environment; (7) the adequacy of language to describe the world; (8) the existence of values used in science (e.g., “test theories fairly and report test results honestly”); (9) the uniformity of nature and induction; (10) the existence of numbers. Notice, though, that there is nothing on that list concerning the subject of imago Dei. There is a good reason for the exclusion: Reason’s rules are metaphysical, not theological. Again, notice that the concept of “design” also didn’t make the cut. As principles of Christian faith,” imago Dei” and” design” may serve to inspire the scientist, but they have nothing to do with the intellectual standards for gaining new knowledge or interpreting evidence reasonably. That is the exclusive business of philosophy. “Sure, one needn’t be religious to do good science. But then again, like Steve Fuller asks as a title to one of his book chapters, “What has atheism – old or new – ever done for science?” His answer: “Atheism as a positive doctrine has done precious little for science.” *This is a great point and I agree with it without qualification. “Dialogue, yes; synthesis (or synergy) and harmony, that’s the attempt.” *Everything turns on what you mean by synthesis. I hold that truth is unified. In other words, there are many aspects to truth, but only one truth. One truth does not exist for science, another for philosophy, and another for theology. Why does this matter? If science, philosophy, and theology all present diverse aspects of the same truth (as opposed to each arriving at its own truth) then, on condition that each uses its proper methods, any truths arrived at from one domain will always be compatible with truths arrived at in another domain. Conversely, any apparent truth arrived at in one field must be false if it contradicts a known truth in another field. Lawrence Kraus, a popular scientist, says that the universe could have created itself out of nothing. This ridiculous claim contradicts both the law of identity and the law of causality. There is no reason to take it seriously because evidence, interpreted rationally, cannot possibly support his contention. He can only come to such a perverse conclusion by interpreting the evidence irrationally. I define "synthesis," therefore, as interdisciplinary cooperation between the various branches of knowledge in the pursuit of the one truth. Clearly, theology (and philosophy) can illuminate science in many ways—and vice versa. I am not suggesting that each branch has nothing to do with the other. Quite the contrary, every specialty overlaps horizontally with its neighbor specialty (social psychology, sociology, anthropology) and finds its level vertically with higher and lower sciences (physics>>chemistry>>biology) (Theology>>philosophy>>mathematics>>science). A specialist who has no general knowledge of his relationship with the big picture is a danger to himself and others. May the saints preserve us from scientists who know nothing about philosophy and philosophers who know nothing about science. What it all add up to is this: no thinker from any one area of knowledge should ever presume to tell someone in another field what methods to use or what problems to address. As far as I know, this novel attempt by anti-ID partisans to intrude on ID’s methodological practices is unprecedented in the annals of intellectual pursuits. Darwinists want to impose “methodological naturalism, neo Thomists push their philosophy of nature, TEs intrude with their theodicy, and now sociologists are weighing in with “reflexivity” and “imago Dei. As Jimmy Durante used to say, “Everybody wants to get in on the act.” There is a reason for that as well. The ID community remains as the only real threat to Darwinists and the only one they take seriously. Because ID is a significant social force, many hope to make their career by attacking it. They survive as parasites only because ID lives. I have higher hopes for you.StephenB
July 28, 2012
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Gregory (66): I'll answer your question this way: All scientific theories -- not just ID, but all of them -- are conceived by human minds. Whether we should say they are "made" by human minds is another question. That sounds kind of Viconian to me, and, as you might guess, I'm a Platonist. *Theoria* means something different to me than it does to most modern people. But if your point is that theories are a human thing (and hence unlike rocks and snails) -- yes, of course. But I need no social science or sophisticated modern jargon from philosophy of science to see that. I just need the sort of recognition that was obvious in ancient times to people like Cicero and Aristotle. Now, I've answered your question. How about answering mine? (And by the way, while the masses may not recognize the term "stochastic" they understand perfectly well the issue the term points to, i.e., the difference between "with large enough numbers you get lucky now and then" and "for some things, large numbers aren't enough; you need planning.") So, the question: Do you think that, given the first cell, which you've already admitted to have been specially created (thus burning your bridges with 3/4 of the TE/EC crowd), all the other species were derived without any intervention or front-loading? Or do you think God was tinkering, or loaded up the early genome with some long-running programs which eventually had to generate a set of creatures very much like what we see? Or are you going to duck the question, on the grounds that "biological questions" (unimportant things like whether or not we are all the products of cosmic caprice) don't interest you because you are a sociologist?Timaeus
July 28, 2012
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F/N: For those interested in TMLO, cf the text here, now free for download. Notice the actual issues and concerns, as well as the analytical techniques brought to bear in especially Chs 7 - 9. Since then, it has been found more widely useful to shift focus to a closely related concept, information. Particularly, information that is relevant to items that per functional requisites are complex and specified. It is in that context in which for example Dembski's Chi metric was developed, and from which we have derived and discussed the log reduced modified metric Chi_500 = I*S - 500.kairosfocus
July 28, 2012
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Of course, you always have a better question, even if you have no answers. It couldn't be otherwise. That is part of your individual 'textual scholar' without personality reason for choosing the pseudonymous name 'Timaeus.' 'Stochastic mechanisms' resonating with 'millions of people', yeah right!! ;) Still my simple, proletarian (dedicated worker), everyday person question remains for you. Why? Because human-made things are a daily, existential concern and interest for everybody. Is ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design theory’ in your opinion a ‘human-made thing’? Yes or no? 'Timaeus' may be a 'real person,' an IDM-ID pseudo-celebrity at UD. But then again, he may be just a 'bot' with an attitude and no personal choice or character until he answers. (And it's actually really not a difficult or complex question!)Gregory
July 28, 2012
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PS: In short, I am asking for a focus of attention on one of the real-world foci of design theory since TMLO in 1984, OOL.kairosfocus
July 28, 2012
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