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Guest Post: Part 1 of 2: Qualitative Complex and Specified Information within genes – An Introduction

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Today’s guest post comes to us from one of our regular commenters, Dr.JDD. All that follows is his:

I would like to start off this post by emphasising this is not meant to be seen in any way as a “disproof” nor an “attempt to disprove” the appearance of complex proteins in eukaryotic cells through proposed unguided evolutionary mechanisms. This is rather I hope something to stir up discussion and engage thought in particular to those who wish to understand better the real complexities and challenges that are needed to be overcome, if indeed we were to accept such proposed mechanisms as genuine and real.

We all know that mutations in DNA can result in a different amino acid appearing in a protein. For example the DNA triplet codon if read as “CTT” would be translated to the amino acid Leucine (L; obviously via the mRNA intermediate). However, if there was a mutation from the C to the G, the frame would read “GTT” and this would be translated into a Valine (V). As we all further know, we can have deleterious, neutral, and beneficial mutations (in a given context). Additionally, a mutation in the third letter of the DNA triplet codon is often redundant at the level of the amino acid because of the redundant nature of the genetic code (“perfectly optimised” many would say). Obviously then, removal of or insertion of a new DNA base will have a much greater impact on the sequence (as you will shift the reading frame) and therefore is usually deleterious.

Now I would make a request that I am not attacked for over-simplifying this concept, but to talk very simply about evolutionary change, mutations will occur at random in certain positions in the DNA sequence and this may be inherited (germline mutations) with a consequence of either deleterious, neutral or beneficial, with most “thought to be near-neutral.”

There remains a question though that has fascinated me for a while, and led me to look at some examples of this. What if we discovered other layers of code within the same gene? What would be the impact of a mutation on this other code, relative to the foremost code? How much would this then limit the availability of more than one code to co-evolve, realistically?

Now these are not questions I personally can easily answer nor have the capacity to answer, to any full degree. But I think it is something interesting that others who are perhaps smarter and of a more “code-orientated” training and mind-set should consider, especially in the context of the ID paradigm.

Just to make a “disclaimer” as well – I profess to not be an expert in this area. My PhD and some of my first post-doctoral work was in the endocytic pathway and protein trafficking and I then moved on to human Immunology. I am no longer in academia but rather the pharmaceutical world so the way I approach research and scientific questions is perhaps a little different than the academic approach, but personally I do not see that as a bad thing. I am not a geneticist is the main point I am making, although I obviously have some training in that field (not that this is an exceptionally useful thing).

Now with the advance of proteomics and our ability to detect peptides and “map” the human proteome, a lot of information has come to light. In particular, it is apparent we are “missing” a lot of proteins found in cells but not annotated as genes in our databases. Surprisingly, for quite some time the field has held to the dogma of one gene, one Open Reading Frame (ORF) – and potentially many different proteins due to alternative splicing events, for example. Yet recent studies mapping the human proteome (“A draft map of the human proteome.” Kim et al. 2014. Nature. 509, 575-581) have yielded many MS spectra that cannot be assigned to annotated genes in the human genome. With that publication in the prestigious Nature journal, one researcher made a very insightful comment which I would like to focus on (emphasis mine):

 

Xavier Roucou 2014 Jul 15
Among several significant contributions in this work, the discovery of 44 novel protein-coding open reading frames (ORFs) illustrates the complexity of the human proteome. Recently, we reported the discovery of 83,886 previously undescribed ORFs termed alternative ORFs (AltORFs) Vanderperre B, 2013. AltORFs are defined as ORFs present in the transcriptome that are different from annotated ORFs. We detected 1,259 proteins translated from AltORFs in human biological samples Vanderperre B, 2013. While the role and importance of this “alternative proteome” will require substantial further validation, there can be no doubt that a comprehensive description of the human proteome must include the distinct possibility of a vastly greater number of functional proteins than has been traditionally considered. Given the existence of the alternative proteome, it is not surprising that Kim et al. found that nearly 50% of the 35 million MS/MS spectra of human proteins did not match proteins in the NCBI’s RefSeq human protein sequence database. In an attempt to identify these novel proteins, the authors translated the human reference genome, RefSeq transcript sequences, non-coding RNAs, and pseudogenes. Among the 193 newly identified proteins, 44 were translated from novel uORFs, ORFs located in an alternate reading frame within coding regions of annotated genes, or ORFs located in 3’-UTRs. The astonishing failure to have detected the alternative proteome years ago results from the fact that MS-based proteomic methods rely on existing protein sequence databases that are far from complete and therefore do not allow the assignment of all MS/MS spectra. Recent ribosome profiling and footprinting approaches have suggested the significant use of unconventional translation initiation sites in mammals Ingolia NT, 2011 Lee S, 2012 Michel AM, 2012, and these alternative proteins should have been detected. In order to better define the human proteome, we generated a new database of alternative ORFs (AltORFs) present in NCBI’s RefSeq human mRNA sequence database. AltORFs overlap the annotated or reference protein coding ORF (RefORF) in an alternate reading frame, are located in the 5′- and 3′-UTR regions of an mRNA, or partially overlap with both the RefORF and an UTR region. This approach led to the discovery of 83,886 unique AltORFs with a minimum size of 40 codons Vanderperre B, 2013. The majority of mRNAs (87%) have at least one predicted AltORF, with an average of 3.88 AltORFs per mRNA. Additionally, the evolutionary conservation of many of these reading frames suggests functional importance. These AltORFs were translated in silico and included in an alternative protein database we used to interpret unmatched MS/MS spectra. So far, we and others have identified nearly 1300 alternative proteins in different human cell lines and tissues Vanderperre B, 2013, Klemke M, 2001 Oyama M, 2004 Vanderperre B, 2011 Bergeron D, 2013 Slavoff SA, 2013 Menschaert G, 2013, including certain of the 44 new proteins mentioned in the Kim et al. study: the alternative protein translated from the AltORFs mapping to the 5’-UTR of the SLC35A4 gene (or AltSLC35A4), was detected in Hela cells and lung tissue; the AltC11orf48 was detected in Hela cells, colon, lung and ovary tissues; and the AltCHTF8 was detected in Hela cells Vanderperre B, 2013. Twenty four of the 44 novel ORFs detected by Kim et al. were, in fact, already present in our AltORF database, and 9 of the 44 proteins translated from these novel ORFs were previously detected: AltASNSD1, AltSLC35A4, AltMKKS, AltSMCR7L, AltCHTF8, AltRPP14, AltSF1, AltC110rf48, AltHNRNPUL12. In this sense, Kim et al.`s study strongly supports the existence of the alternative proteome. Clearly, the alternative proteins detected by Kim et al. and by our team are the proverbial tip of the iceberg. A full map of the human proteome is thus still years away, and will require several important changes in our current thinking concerning the proteome and the concept that each mature mRNA only codes for one protein.

I could spend quite a long time talking about how fascinating this is, how little we know about proteins at present and how dogma has led us down a path to ignore an abundance of proteins just because they do not fit the standard model of thinking. It is truly amazing how little attention this line of work receives. For example, >90% of people I work with are PhD-level molecular and cellular biologists, and I have not yet met one who, when I have spoken of these things to them, is aware such layers of complexity exist. The dogma changes very slowly.

However what I wish to focus on are these AltORFs that are present in different reading frames of an already existing gene. Hopefully some of you will find this as utterly fascinating as I have. Hopefully some of you will even be able to think about the probabilistic implications to the evolutionary paradigm that this may (or may not) raise. I think most of us are fascinated by biology in one way or another so hopefully at least the first purpose will see some fulfilment.

As already discussed, a protein product is translated from an initial DNA code (via messenger RNA). This code is in triple – so 3 bases code for 1 amino acid, usually. However the reading frame is important. For example, consider the set of 3-letter words below:

THE CAT WAS NOT FAT

That makes sense and gives a message. Now let us change the way we read that by starting the 3-letter words from a reading frame shifted 1 letter over:

HEC ATW ASN OTF

What you notice is the message is completely lost – you cannot see any similarity to the first message, when looking at the triplets. Note – this is not one of those naïve attempts to use language to represent what happens with DNA code. That is different because in language you need to have particular combinations of letters to make the message viable. Whereas with DNA code, all you need are 3 of the four bases – any combination will give a message, either one of the 20 (usually) amino acids, or a stop code (or a start but that is the same as an amino acid, Met). That does not mean functionality of the polypeptide, but there is still a message. So this is just to illustrate you change the message – not you lose it!

Equally then, let us shift the reading frame over one again:

ECA TWA SNO TFA

All 3 messages are quite different. So what about with a DNA code and reading in different frames? Here is an example:

ATG CTT CAA TGC AGA TTC CCG GTT TCT TAG

Now ATG in DNA codes for the start codon and is a Methionine (M). TAG is one of several stop codons. So the translated result of such a code would be:

M-L-Q-C-R-F-P-V-S-*(STOP)

However, if you were to read in an alternative frame (shifted over 2 times from the original), you would see that starting at the 9th letter, we now observe a potential start codon of ATG appear:

(AT) GCT TCA ATG CAG ATT CCC GGT TTC CTT (AG)

This would then translate to (caveat – no stop codon here):

M-Q-I-P-G-F-L-…

As you can see, this looks quite different to the first peptidic sequence (ignoring the unavoidable starting Met). Given such a vastly different sequence, one may expect quite a different looking protein to be produced: a protein with different folds, structure and function (obviously this case is an example and neither sequence are long enough to be considered a “protein” as such but rather a short peptide, but this is merely to illustrate a principle).

So again, those that like to be fascinated by these things and consider paradigms let us consider a few things:

1) How does this affect the evolution of a protein when proposed to be through unguided processes?

2) What constraints are placed on apparent “neutral” or near-neutral mutations?

3) How does this affect the way you interpret an apparent “redundant” mutation in the DNA code?

4) Given the vastly different nature of the amino acid code (and thus strong chance of differing structure, folds and function), what are the probabilistic likelihood of such an alternative ORF (AltORF) encoding for a protein that plays a very close role with the common ORF it is found within?

Just to speak to some of those questions in particular with regards to points 1-3, I think broadly speaking this makes unguided evolution a lot harder. The reason being is any evolutionary changes to this region of overlapping ORFs in different frames means that a change has to be tolerated by BOTH proteins simultaneously. Where a mutation may have been neutral/near neutral before for the standard ORF now has to also be likewise (or beneficial) for the AltORF. As you are in a completely different reading frame, a conservative point mutation in the DNA code could very easily insert an aberrant stop codon for example into the AltORF. Suddenly, the layers are complicated (and this is just considering one single AltORF that overlaps). Thus without full understanding of the potential AltORFs present in a gene, one cannot simply state that a mutation is either a) neutral/near neutral/beneficial, b) redundant or c) conservative.

For example, in the above case we have as the 7th triplet in the original ORF, CCG which translates to a P (Proline). Let us say that we have a mutation from CCG to CCC – a single point mutation. This, in the original ORF is redundant – you still encode for a P. However, in the altORF that mutation has now changed a GGT to a CGT which is a Cysteine (C) to an Arginine (R). Those amino acids are not even close to being conservative (e.g. an L to a V might be considered a conservative change as these are both small hydrophobic residues). So you can see that the impact now of a single mutation which under the usual accepted paradigm of DNA code is seen as conservative or even redundant, suddenly becomes the opposite of this.

In part 2, I will try to review and summarise a paper that describes one such AltORF that overlaps with an existing normal gene, with implications in disease. Putting it into this context I think will help fascinate those of interest further, and also demonstrate some of the challenges unguided evolution must overcome.

Comments
Popperian @ 78 asserted,
Again, I’m not aware of any independent, first person accounts of his miracle.
Just to set the record straight . . . 1. There were many first-person accounts. Some were collected into a single corpus, but many of the witnesses, including all but one of the apostles were slaughtered in imaginative and cruel ways to suppress the “tribe of Christians” as Josephus termed them. Despite the holocaust against Jesus' followers, enough people survived to provide a continuous chain of trust across the centuries to the present. 2. You're confusing the kingdom of God with the Day of the Lord. They are completely different! The kingdom of God is a quiet but powerful divine sovereignty that authentic Christians cherish in their lives, resulting in the continuous power of God's forgiveness, transformation of their values, attitudes, and actions, and a profound inner peace. The power of the Holy Spirit arriving at Pentecost might also be alluded to. The Day of the Lord is God's direct intervention into humanity's destruction of themselves and the planet, and judgment of the nations. 3. The transliterated word in Greek is genea, which could mean race, family, or generation depending on context. Jesus said, “Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Thus, in context, it seems that the Jews born around the same time as the terrible ecological disasters, wars, and genocides that Jesus had been predicting begin to happen, will not be wiped out as certain religio-political forces intend. But as I'm sure you agree, there are no forces in the world today committed to the destruction of the Jews, right? -QQuerius
June 3, 2015
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Dr JDD
You have completely deflected, ignored and avoided my question. Rather, you have chosen to assume my line of reasoning, jump over the question asked and by predicting what you think I would say in response, use your rejection of that line of reasoning (I have not even made yet) as justification for not entertaining my questioning scenario.
First, I asked you where you disagreed, starting out with what i suspected was uncontroversial aspects of biology. That was a key point in my argument. However, the resurrection of biological life is not uncontroversial, regardless of who supposedly caused it. Second, my criticism was such that, regardless who supposedly performed the miracle or when it supposedly occurred, there are thousands of people who supposedly witness them. This is the case, even today. So, I didn't just jump over your question arbitrarily. I specifically did so to contrast claims of miracles and the sort of credulity many people exhibit towards them. That you accept some miracles, but not others, is relevant to the controversial point from which you started.
I really do not think you have studied very well the case for Jesus, unfortunately. I could spend pages replying to what you have said but it has been done to death elsewhere, and available for you to look into if you so wish. I suspect you do not want to know the truth.Sathya Sai Baba is a very different case. His critics deny his powers.
Actually, that's my point. Despite the differences, thousands of people believed Baba actually performed miracles. For Jesus to have genuine critics, there would need to be independent, first person accounts of his miracles. To my knowledge, no such independent, first person accounts exist.
Now, listen carefully. Not one of Jesus’ contemporary critics ever questioned if these miracles were real or not. At best, they interrogated a man and others around him to see if he really was blind from birth. But not once do we see them saying it was a trick, claiming that. In fact we are told they sought to kill him because he raised someone from the dead! Why? Because they hated His teaching and wanted Him gone as He taught against them, their authority and arrogance. The ones who sought to murder Him did not question his daily miracles. They attributed it to demonic activity, as that was the only way they could accept it without accepting His claim – that He was God incarnate.
Again, I'm not aware of any independent, first person accounts of his miracle. Second, many people believe in Baba's miracles despite his critics and despite the fact that he refused any kind of investigation. See the quotes in my original comment. Not to mention that supernatural intervention was commonly accepted at the time of Jesus. Robert Wright's The Evolution of God outlines how the supernatural beings were invoked to explain phenomena we simply did not understand. However, we no longer think lighting is the result of God's anger.
Sathya Sai Baba predicted he would not die until 2019.
Yet, there are headlines that read: Sathya Sai Baba’s Physical Death Prediction Comes True. How? His followers appealed to the possibility that Baba was referring to lunar years. Jesus predicted his return in the lifetime of his followers. Yet, Jesus' followers claim his prediction was accurate. How? They appeal to the possibility that what Jesus actually predicted was his transfiguration, not his return. Or that 'generation' actually meant 'race', or that “this generation shall not pass away” refers to the generation at the end time, or that “The time is near” and “coming quickly” is not in human scale, but God's scale. IOW, it's unclear why you accept rationalizations of Jesus' predictions, but not Baba's. Again, something simply doesn't add up.Popperian
June 3, 2015
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Dr JDD [OT?] Here's a link to a post in another UD thread, which might shed some light on the current state of affairs in the ongoing 'evo-devo' debate: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-564085 Note that other posts in that same thread deal with the same subject too, but the above linked post references a very recent paper published in a peer-reviewed journal by authors who have been working on that subject quite a long time. When carefully reading research papers*, shouldn't we be very discerning and ask the most basic questions that may put the given paper to test? Perhaps the most fundamental question those papers should answer was popularized by a famous Wendy's TV ad: "where's the beef?" Also, those papers should meet a very important condition that was popularized by a famous Hollywood movie: "Show me the money!" :) (*) perhaps this includes a paper referenced @40 here in this thread?Dionisio
June 1, 2015
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Kim et al: We identified eight cases where we observed peptides that mapped to an ORF located in an alternate reading frame within coding regions of annotated genes.
Dr.JDD: However what I wish to focus on are these AltORFs that are present in different reading frames of an already existing gene. Viruses are known to have proteins from alternate reading frames, but they seem to evolve without much trouble. See, for instance, Firth at al., Mapping overlapping functional elements embedded within the protein-coding regions of RNA viruses, Nucleic Acids Research 2014. Most alternative readings only form short peptides, and when they form proteins, they often don't fold. If an alternate reading leads to a functional protein, then gene duplication would allow decoupled evolution of each protein.Zachriel
June 1, 2015
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Popperian, to answer now your second point (which did not answer my question but jumped straight over it):
So, why does should the supposed miraculous accounts of Jesus, of which took place thousands of years ago in the Palestine, become the basis for an entire world view, when we supposedly have miracles happening right now?Something just doesn’t add up.
I really do not think you have studied very well the case for Jesus, unfortunately. I could spend pages replying to what you have said but it has been done to death elsewhere, and available for you to look into if you so wish. I suspect you do not want to know the truth.Sathya Sai Baba is a very different case. His critics deny his powers. Investigating his life show contradiction in his claims to his reality - they question his motivations and activities, therefore they call into question his reliability and trustworthiness in many of the claims made. Did 1000s of people witness raising Walter Cowan from the dead? I think not. There is strong speculation this was fabricated. His critics have provided plausible explanations for his apparent “miracles” as being largely sleight of hand. Look at any modern magician and making something appear out of apparently nothing is quite easily done.What, however, is not easily done is to every day heal the sick, make people born blind to see, heal in front of people a man with a withered hand, heal the lame, and, raise a man who had been dead and stank of decomposition, from the dead.Now, listen carefully. Not one of Jesus’ contemporary critics ever questioned if these miracles were real or not. At best, they interrogated a man and others around him to see if he really was blind from birth. But not once do we see them saying it was a trick, claiming that. In fact we are told they sought to kill him because he raised someone from the dead! Why? Because they hated His teaching and wanted Him gone as He taught against them, their authority and arrogance. The ones who sought to murder Him did not question his daily miracles. They attributed it to demonic activity, as that was the only way they could accept it without accepting His claim – that He was God incarnate.I could make many other points about the history, the verification, the documentation, the reliability (Luke was perhaps one of the greatest historians ever to live) but it has been done over and over again elsewhere.What however, we must also remember about Jesus is that He lived His words, he predicted His death, and every prediction He made was true. He predicted the measure of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem 40yrs before it happened. Sathya Sai Baba predicted he would not die until 2019. He failed that test. Sathya Sai Baba also has strong links to molesting young boys and possessed huge amounts of wealth, found after his death. Therefore we have many reasons to doubt that Sathya Sai Baba was who he claimed to be, and was just a good and convincing con artist that preyed on what people wanted and needed.Jesus however, was the exact opposite of what those people thought they needed and wanted. They wanted a king to take back their land and lead them as a conquering nation to rule the world. Jesus said He had to die and resisted being made a king – the crowds even tried to by force after he fed ~20,000+ of them. Further, we have very specific (and numerous) prophecies/predictions made about Jesus several 100 years prior to His birth which He fulfilled. Where are those specific prophecies about anyone else ever to have lived?So I ask you again, independent of what you think my next line of reasoning is, please answer my original question as I would like to know how you would interpret those events.Dr JDD
June 1, 2015
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…ID proponents just don’t seem to care or even point out where they object, in detail. …I’ve mentioned it several times without any significant response…
Popperian, you are no doubt frustrated by the lack of direct response to your comments or questions posed to ID proponents, yet how can you expect significant response when you do not engage yourself with questions posed of you? You have completely deflected, ignored and avoided my question. Rather, you have chosen to assume my line of reasoning, jump over the question asked and by predicting what you think I would say in response, use your rejection of that line of reasoning (I have not even made yet) as justification for not entertaining my questioning scenario. As such, you avoid committing yourself to an answer that breaks down any hope we have of having a rational discussion about these things. My questioning was perfectly in line with how I can justify and interpret other lines of questioning (e.g. the one you are following through with me) from a personal point of view but you choose to ignore it and not answer it. So please do not complain about the actions of ID proponents when you are guilty of the same, as evidenced here. However, I am not one of tit-for-tat or recompensing like-for-like. So I will follow through your questions, if you find it useful (or entertaining).
– Saying that knowledge was previously located in one place (in an abstract designer) then copied to another (in organisms) does not explain the origin of that knowledge. It merely pushes the problem up a level without actually improving it. – As Popper pointed out, the more a theory prohibits, the better theory. Without some kind of limitations about the knowledge ID’s abstract designer possessed, when it possessed it, etc. one could appeal to ID’s designer to explain anything, including a biosphere that appeared to have evolved naturally.
Agree to a point. Where I differ is in the concept that the knowledge did not originate with the designer. So therefore what I am personally claiming/believe is that the origin of the knowledge is with the designer. You seem to be claiming that the designer was some sort of intelligent agent that passed on the knowledge by this statement. Tell me then, where did the origin of knowledge of how to build a computer come from? Of how to make a working watch? Are these not defined as coming from individuals? Or collections of individuals accumulating knowledge over time and piecing that knowledge together? If you say anything had knowledge but had to obtain it from elsewhere, you never solve the problem, as I believe you are saying. That is why when we see humans can innovate and be sources of knowledge, and we have good reason to believe a designer may design things that reflect their own attributes, we would conclude that a designer would be creative as well, i.e. be an originator of knowledge. Also known as the source of knowledge. So I would disagree that the designer has to have gained this knowledge from somewhere else. But I suppose you are coming onto the age-old question of “Who created God” which has been well discussed before, is a common fallacy and is of no worse position than any other theory described by any other human (just listen to Hawkins to see that – the universe can self-create, etc.). I agree. In and of itself, with no special revelation, a “god” can do anything and be anything you want it to be. Therefore on its own, a “god” is a rather substandard theory. So ask yourself this question – why do so many ID-supporters turn out to attach to a particular faith, often the Judeo-Christian origins of faith? Many argue that it was the chicken that came before the egg – religion drove them to choose ID and biases their view of the world. However the fact of the matter is that there are many where the egg came first. The natural world points to a designer, however this, as you say, is not a satisfying theory in and of itself. So therefore theology is turned to and without any revelation we are all just playing guessing games. So the question then comes to be, which revelation is true, if any? If you find one with strong evidence for truth, this can then reveal to you attributes about the designer that can be reapplied to the framework of scientific analysis and understanding observations. Now this will never be accepted by the scientific community as modern science has an a priori commitment to materialism and nothing but natural processes are capable of describing…natural processes! So it precludes the possibility of a designer (despite the theological aspect rooted in evidence itself, not on a whim). So I largely agree with what you write, especially, this:
the more a theory prohibits, the better theory.
The problem I have is two-fold (and I strongly suspect you will inherently disagree with this): The theory of evolution (macro/unguided UCD) accounts for every observation making it non-falsifiable thus little in difference to a “goddidit”. There have been many holes poked in the theory of evolution. Here with this OP I present a potential mountain that evolution has to climb and potentially one that is insurmountable with unguided processes in the proposed timescales (see part 2 when it comes out). This particular case needs more work to show that. But there have been many examples and mathematical models. Yet all evolutionary biologists roll over to the dogma and say that work is flawed. Having surveyed these arguments, including the contradictory nature of saying that truth is not selected for therefore things like self-awareness are illusions, it seems obvious to me that evolution is just as all-encompassing as theism. Even if evolution was much more restrictive than the design inference and so a “better” theory – that does not make it non-falsifiable and as per 1), when it is shown to fall short of what is necessary for it to be real, it must be dismissed. This is why there are the many members of “the third way” and other such movements away from neo-Darwinism. But, we do not see many hardcore atheistic evolutionary biologists even accepting the problems there are with this. That is telling. They downplay criticisms and refuse to rationally engage. They quote consensus thought and choose to perform character assassination rather than have a scientific discussion. In no other field within biology do you see such consistent and overwhelming lack of engagement with the criticisms. Yet that is exactly how science should progress: with null hypotheses and not relying on consensus. It seems philosophically obvious that people do not wish to reject Darwinistic evolution due to one’s worldviews and potential alternatives rather than where the science takes them. But this is the point – it should not matter what the alternative theory or theories are: if something cannot overcome the evidence and cannot explain the evidence, regardless of the alternative, it should be altered or dismissed. Even if in its current state it “prohibits more” as a theory. So ultimately we are not then pitting evolution vs ID. We are saying evolution fails. That does not mean ID wins. But ID is an alternative theory and until a better one comes about, it fits expectations.Dr JDD
June 1, 2015
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Popperian:
So, why does should the supposed miraculous accounts of Jesus, of which took place thousands of years ago in the Palestine, become the basis for an entire world view, when we supposedly have miracles happening right now? Something just doesn’t add up.
LoL LoL Muwahaha LoL LoL Muwahaha Muwahaha Moron. [Someone had to say it.]Mung
June 1, 2015
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Popperian: I’d also point out that ICEs are not replicators. They do not contain an internal set of instructions that indicate which transformations of raw materials should be performed to make copies of themselves. Nor do they appear out of thin air. They are most often made in factories, in which the knowledge of how to construct them is external. It’s unclear why this point totally escapes most ID proponents, as I’ve mentioned it several times without any significant response. Apparently, refusing to take theories they disagree with seriously considered an effective strategy for ID proponents? Which point? (a) not replicators? (b) no internal set of instructions? (c) not appearing out of thin air? (d) are most often made in factories? (e) the knowledge of how to construct them is external? Maybe the reason why "it's unclear" to you is that your argumentation is as clear as mud to us, referring to (a)~(e) above. I'm a trained engineer with advanced degree (although none in M.E.), AND a former Darwinian, so if you want to try again to tell us why self-replication excludes unfathomable genius and how we are somehow boneheaded to not to get it, please give it your best shot. I take it that you would accept the genius of the design of life if you could meet the genius in a corporate environment or read his story in the WSJ, or perhaps more likely Slate. Taking Darwinian theory seriously is not a problem for anyone on here I don't think; obviously that is the basis of this board. I take it seriously for drastically different reasons than when I believed it, after reconsideration for over 10 years.groovamos
June 1, 2015
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A few notes on the overlapping complexity in DNA
Multidimensional Genome – Dr. Robert Carter – video (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905048 The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin https://vimeo.com/106012299 Time to Redefine the Concept of a Gene? - Sept. 10, 2012 Excerpt: As detailed in my second post on alternative splicing, there is one human gene that codes for 576 different proteins, and there is one fruit fly gene that codes for 38,016 different proteins! While the fact that a single gene can code for so many proteins is truly astounding, we didn’t really know how prevalent alternative splicing is. Are there only a few genes that participate in it, or do most genes engage in it? The ENCODE data presented in reference 2 indicates that at least 75% of all genes participate in alternative splicing. They also indicate that the number of different proteins each gene makes varies significantly, with most genes producing somewhere between 2 and 25. Based on these results, it seems clear that the RNA transcripts are the real carriers of genetic information. This is why some members of the ENCODE team are arguing that an RNA transcript, not a gene, should be considered the fundamental unit of inheritance. http://networkedblogs.com/BYdo8 Duality in the human genome - Nov. 28, 2014 Excerpt: The gene, as we imagined it, exists only in exceptional cases. "We need to fundamentally rethink the view of genes that every schoolchild has learned since Gregor Mendel's time. Moreover, the conventional view of individual mutations is no longer adequate. Instead, we have to consider the two gene forms and their combination of variants,",,, "Our investigations at the protein level have shown that 96 percent of all genes have at least 5 to 20 different protein forms.,,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-11-duality-human-genome.html Design In DNA – Alternative Splicing, Duons, and Dual coding genes – video (5:05 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm67oXKtH3s#t=305 Duons: Parallel Gene Code Defies Evolution. - Jeffrey Tomkins - 2014 Excerpt: Protein-coding genes—those containing the key information to make proteins—hold the most-studied type of genetic code. Some of the most important chunks of code in genes are the exons, which specify the actual template for protein sequences. In exons, three consecutive DNA letters form what is called a codon, and each codon corresponds to a specific amino acid in a protein. Long sets of codons in genes contain the protein-making information that ends up being translated into entire proteins that may be hundreds of amino acids in length. Before this study, scientists were aware that the protein-coding regions of genes had mysterious signals other than codons that told the cell machinery how to regulate and process the RNA transcripts (copies of genes) prior to making the protein. Researchers originally thought that these regulatory codes and the protein template codes containing the codons operated independently of each other. In reality, the new results showed that these codes actually work both separately and together. While one set of codons specifies the order of amino acids for a protein, the very same sequence of DNA letters also specifies where necessary cellular machinery (transcription factors) are to bind to the gene to make the RNA transcript that codes for a protein. As a result of this new discovery, these dual-function code sites in exons have been labeled “duons.” Scientists just last year reported that transcription factors clamped onto some exons inside genes but did not understand this dual code system until now.2 The human mind struggles to comprehend the overall complexity of the genetic code—especially the emerging evidence showing that some genes have sections that can be read both forward and backward.3 Some genes overlap parts of other genes in the genome, and now it has been revealed that many genes have areas that contain dual codes within the very same sequence.1,4 Even the most advanced computer programmers can’t come close to matching the genetic code’s incredible information density and bewildering complexity. An all-powerful Creator appears to be the only explanation for this astounding amount of seemingly infinite bioengineering in the genome. http://www.icr.org/article/duons-parallel-gene-code-defies-evolution/ Dual-Gene Codes Defy Evolution...Again. - 2014 Excerpt: Not only does a codon provide the information for which specific amino acid to add in the making of protein, but the variant of that codon influences the information needed on how to regulate its folding. Thus, you have two different sets of information encoded in different languages in the same section of DNA! The researchers state, “Dual interpretations enable the assembly of the protein’s primary structure while enabling additional folding controls via pausing of the translation process.” What was once thought only to be meaningless redundancy has now been proven to be exactly the opposite. In fact, the researchers say, “The functionality of condonic [sic] redundancy denies the ill-advised label of ‘degeneracy.’” per icr org What Is The Genome? It's Certainly Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 Comparing genomes to computer operating systems - Van - May 2010 Excerpt: we present a comparison between the transcriptional regulatory network of a well-studied bacterium (Escherichia coli) and the call graph of a canonical OS (Linux) in terms of topology,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20439753 “Millions of DNA Switches That Power Human Genome’s Operating System Are Discovered.” - Sept. 2012 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120905135326.htm
bornagain77
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD:
And I also agree you push the problem of abiogenesis except I follow that through further than I suspect you do in that I believe the problem is pushed to a point that a naturalistic mechanism becomes implausible.
I've pushed the problem, in the context of my limited response, by merely proposing that material aliens did it. Nowhere did I present a theory about what does or does not represent the appearance of design, how it could be explained in a way that is comparable with no-design laws, etc., as indicated in the referenced paper. A such, we didn't end up with a better problem to solve than we started out with. Note: this is not to say I think an naturalist mechanism is impossible, but that I didn't provide one.Popperian
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD:
– a man dies, at least as can be verified through human observation (not machine) – the dead man is wrapped in grave clothes, not embalmed or had any procedure to avoid decay – the man is dead for 4 days – there is a stench from the body consistent with decay – another man commands a dead decomposing body to come out of the grave where the body has laid for 4 days – the man comes out, alive, no decomposition visible What would be a naturalistic explanation of those events? Let us assume he was truly dead and not in a coma?
First, the supposed life of Jesus was documented decades after it occurred. Nor is there any actual independent accounts to collaborate them. But even if that weren't the case, such claims are not enough to warrant their belief. Why? because many people attribute miraculous powers to people that live today. And they are so desperate to believe those powers exist the extent that they apply no criticism to supposed miraculous events on a regular basis. Example? Sathya Sai Baba supposedly miraculously and regularly manifested holy ash, jewelry and was even claimed to have raised the dead. Thousands of people supposedly witnessed these events first hand. And not just anyone. From the this CFI page on Sathya Sai Baba
In the documentary, T.N. Seshan, then chief election commissioner of India, held up a ring Baba gave him and said, “He gave this ring out of nowhere, which is set with nine gems; there is a ruby in it, a pearl in it, sapphire in it, there is an emerald in it, there is a diamond in it . . . he realized this for me out of nowhere.” Seshan later explained, “I am not a jumbly person. I’ve got a master’s degree in physics; I have a master’s degree in administration economics from Harvard. I find nothing contradictory between the physics and the fact that I believe this [ring] came out of the blue.”
Another example?
While Baba remained in the hospital, a miracle was proclaimed with followers and reporters flocking to see a four-foot wax figure of Baba “oozing perfumed oils from its feet” (Kumar 2011). The Times of India noted, “Devotees refused to consider that the wax idol could be melting in the sweltering heat and the oil was a resultant residue” (Kumar 2011). The same day, the Deccan Herald noted that the “idol stopped releasing the liquid after it was shifted to the ground floor of the residential complex” (“Axe Effect of Baba Wax Statue” 2011).
So, why does should the supposed miraculous accounts of Jesus, of which took place thousands of years ago in the Palestine, become the basis for an entire world view, when we supposedly have miracles happening right now? Something just doesn't add up.Popperian
May 31, 2015
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Right.... but subfunctionalization (basically, an existing core function being split across multiple genes) is not "inadequate" to describe the first pattern (even if perhaps it won't be the right explanation when we look closer). If you argument is that we should invoke mechanisms that are capable of explaining observations as explanations for those observations then I guess we agree. But it doesn't add up to much...wd400
May 31, 2015
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Mung:
I wonder how inefficient the internal combustion engine is.
Steel ICEs operate at 18 %-20 % efficiency on average.
Therefore not designed? Bad design??
From Wikipedia:
Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of 37 %.
So, they operate at an average of 85% of maximum possible efficiency. Mung:
Incompetent designer
Wikipedia:
There are many inventions aimed at increasing the efficiency of IC engines. In general, practical engines are always compromised by trade-offs between different properties such as efficiency, weight, power, heat, response, exhaust emissions, or noise. Sometimes economy also plays a role in not only the cost of manufacturing the engine itself, but also manufacturing and distributing the fuel. Increasing the engine's efficiency brings better fuel economy but only if the fuel cost per energy content is the same.
As I've been pointing out, variations around the thermodynamic limit of 37% can be explained a trade offs, based on human limitations, which includes limits on human knowledge. Electric motors are more efficient, but we lack the infrastructure to deploy them and the knowledge of how to build more efficient batteries. Also, the vast majority of electricity sources are themselves based on ICEs of some sort. Solar power is much more efficient, but we currently lack the knowledge of how to to replicate the efficiency as possible as well. IOW, we continue to use ICEs because we lack the knowledge to replace them en-mass without anoverwhelming cost that is greater than we would save. However, ID's designer is abstract and has no defined limitation to constrain it. This includes limits on resources, time or costs in rolling out entirely new infrastructure, etc. All ID can say is that biological organisms are as efficient as they are because, "That's just what the designer must have wanted.", which could be used to explain everything, which explains nothing. I'd also point out that ICEs are not replicators. They do not contain an internal set of instructions that indicate which transformations of raw materials should be performed to make copies of themselves. Nor do they appear out of thin air. They are most often made in factories, in which the knowledge of how to construct them is external. It's unclear why this point totally escapes most ID proponents, as I've mentioned it several times without any significant response. Apparently, refusing to take theories they disagree with seriously considered an effective strategy for ID proponents?Popperian
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD, OK, Going forward, here's where we will disagree. And we will disagree for philosophical reasons, not scientific reasons. Specially, we hold different epistemological views about what knowledge is, how it grows (or if it actually grows at all), etc., which you have not argued for, but merely implicitly assumed as theism is a special case of justificationism. ID's designer, by nature of being abstract and having no limitations, is an authoritative source of knowledge. This is, well, by design, as it allows a hole big enough to drive your preferred designer,
- Saying that knowledge was previously located in one place (in an abstract designer) then copied to another (in organisms) does not explain the origin of that knowledge. It merely pushes the problem up a level without actually improving it. - As Popper pointed out, the more a theory prohibits, the better theory. Without some kind of limitations about the knowledge ID's abstract designer possessed, when it possessed it, etc. one could appeal to ID's designer to explain anything, including a biosphere that appeared to have evolved naturally.
A designer that "just was", complete with the knowledge of just the right genes that would result in just the right proteins that would result in just the right concrete features, already present, doesn't serve an explanatory purpose. This is because one could more efficiently state that organisms "just appeared", complete with the knowledge of just the right genes that would result in just the right proteins that would result in just the right concrete features, already present. But, by all means, if you think ID has an explanation for that knowledge, then what is it? Note: I'm not suggesting the latter represents neo-Darwinism.Popperian
May 31, 2015
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Thank you. That's my point. Rationalizing an observation with inadequate existing mechanisms, retards the potential for discovery. However, I don't disagree with you that looking to the familiar tends to be our first natural response. -QQuerius
May 31, 2015
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It does not.wd400
May 31, 2015
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wd400 admitted,
The results are surprising to be, because they suggest either (a) subfunctinalisation is more common than I thought (b) genes rapidly get tied up in networks (which doesn’t seem to be the case generally) (c ) a bit of both of these. It’s also conceivable that some other process explains these results, but being skeptical means weighing new evidence against what we already know.
How does subfunctionalization relate to the following? http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6172/769.abstract -QQuerius
May 31, 2015
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Inefficient? Inefficient by whose standards?
"The brain of a small fruit fly uses energy in the micro-watts for complex flight control and visual information processing to find and fly to food. I don't think a supercomputer could yet simulate what the fruit fly brain does even while using megawatts of energy. The difference of over ten orders of magnitude and the level of energy used is an indication of just how incredible biological systems are. Professor Keiichi Namba, Osaka University http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uw0-MHI_248#t=1645s Seeing the Natural World With a Physicist’s Lens - November 2010 Excerpt: photoreceptor cells that carpet the retinal tissue of the eye and respond to light, are not just good or great or phabulous at their job. They are not merely exceptionally impressive by the standards of biology, with whatever slop and wiggle room the animate category implies. Photoreceptors operate at the outermost boundary allowed by the laws of physics, which means they are as good as they can be, period. Each one is designed to detect and respond to single photons of light — the smallest possible packages in which light comes wrapped. “Light is quantized, and you can’t count half a photon,” said William Bialek, a professor of physics and integrative genomics at Princeton University. “This is as far as it goes.” … Scientists have identified and mathematically anatomized an array of cases where optimization has left its fastidious mark, among them;,, the precision response in a fruit fly embryo to contouring molecules that help distinguish tail from head;,,, In each instance, biophysicists have calculated, the system couldn’t get faster, more sensitive or more efficient without first relocating to an alternate universe with alternate physical constants. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/science/02angier.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=seeing%20the%20natural%20world%20with%20a%20physicist%27s%20lens&st=cse
Moreover, the ATP molecular machine is found to be 100% efficient (which blows comparable man-made machines out of the water in terms of efficiency):
Thermodynamic efficiency and mechanochemical coupling of F1-ATPase – 2011 Excerpt: F1-ATPase is a nanosized biological energy transducer working as part of FoF1-ATP synthase. Its rotary machinery transduces energy between chemical free energy and mechanical work and plays a central role in the cellular energy transduction by synthesizing most ATP in virtually all organisms.,, Our results suggested a 100% free-energy transduction efficiency and a tight mechanochemical coupling of F1-ATPase. http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/12/1106787108.short?rss=1
As well the cell is found to be optimal in its metabolic efficiency:
Metabolism: A Cascade of Design - 2009 Excerpt: A team of biological and chemical engineers wanted to understand just how robust metabolic pathways are. To gain this insight, the researchers compared how far the errors cascade in pathways found in a variety of single-celled organisms with errors in randomly generated metabolic pathways. They learned that when defects occur in the cell’s metabolic pathways, they cascade much shorter distances than when errors occur in random metabolic routes. Thus, it appears that metabolic pathways in nature are highly optimized and unusually robust, demonstrating that metabolic networks in the protoplasm are not haphazardly arranged but highly organized. http://www.reasons.org/metabolism-cascade-design Making the Case for Intelligent Design More Robust - 2010 Excerpt: ,,, In other words, metabolic pathways are optimized to withstand inevitable concentration changes of metabolites. http://www.reasons.org/making-case-intelligent-design-more-robust Optimal Design of Metabolism - Dr. Fazale Rana - July 2012 Excerpt: A new study further highlights the optimality of the cell’s metabolic systems. Using the multi-dimension optimization theory, researchers evaluated the performance of the metabolic systems of several different bacteria. The data generated by monitoring the flux (movement) of compounds through metabolic pathways (like the movement of cars along the roadways) allowed researchers to assess the behavior of cellular metabolism. They determined that metabolism functions optimally for a system that seeks to accomplish multiple objectives. It looks as if the cell’s metabolism is optimized to operate under a single set of conditions. At the same time, it can perform optimally with relatively small adjustments to the metabolic operations when the cell experiences a change in condition. http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-optimal-design-of-metabolism Life Leads the Way to Invention - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: a cell is 10,000 times more energy-efficient than a transistor. “In one second, a cell performs about 10 million energy-consuming chemical reactions, which altogether require about one picowatt (one millionth millionth of a watt) of power.” This and other amazing facts lead to an obvious conclusion: inventors ought to look to life for ideas.,,, Essentially, cells may be viewed as circuits that use molecules, ions, proteins and DNA instead of electrons and transistors. That analogy suggests that it should be possible to build electronic chips – what Sarpeshkar calls “cellular chemical computers” – that mimic chemical reactions very efficiently and on a very fast timescale. http://creationsafaris.com/crev201002.htm#20100226a
In fact, optimal metabolism is found to be 'strikingly similar' across all life domains, thus strongly suggesting that all life on earth was Intelligently Designed with maximal efficiency in mind instead of reflecting a pattern of more or less random distribution that would be expected if Darwinism had occurred:
Mean mass-specific metabolic rates are strikingly similar across life's major domains: Evidence for life's metabolic optimum Excerpt: Here, using the largest database to date, for 3,006 species that includes most of the range of biological diversity on the planet—from bacteria to elephants, and algae to sapling trees—we show that metabolism displays a striking degree of homeostasis across all of life. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2572558/
ditto for photosynthesis:
Uncovering Quantum Secret in Photosynthesis - June 20, 2013 Excerpt: Photosynthetic organisms, such as plants and some bacteria, have mastered this process: In less than a couple of trillionths of a second, 95 percent of the sunlight they absorb is whisked away to drive the metabolic reactions that provide them with energy. The efficiency of photovoltaic cells currently on the market is around 20 percent.,,, Van Hulst and his group have evaluated the energy transport pathways of separate individual but chemically identical, antenna proteins, and have shown that each protein uses a distinct pathway. The most surprising discovery was that the transport paths within single proteins can vary over time due to changes in the environmental conditions, apparently adapting for optimal efficiency. "These results show that coherence, a genuine quantum effect of superposition of states, is responsible for maintaining high levels of transport efficiency in biological systems, even while they adapt their energy transport pathways due to environmental influences" says van Hulst. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130620142932.htm
bornagain77
May 31, 2015
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bornagain77 quoted,
Multiple Overlapping Genetic Codes Profoundly Reduce the Probability of Beneficial Mutation George Montañez 1, Robert J. Marks II 2, Jorge Fernandez 3 and John C. Sanford 4 – published online May 2013 Excerpt: In the last decade, we have discovered still another aspect of the multi- dimensional genome. We now know that DNA sequences are typically “ poly-functional” [38]. Trifanov previously had described at least 12 genetic codes that any given nucleotide can contribute to [39,40], and showed that a given base-pair can contribute to multiple overlapping codes simultaneously.
So, to use Dr.JDD's example, THE CAT WAS NOT FAT There might be an area where HASNT is included in the code: THE CAT WAS NOT FAT Thus if Trifonov is correct that there are 5-10+ overlapping codes in DNA, it would seem that any change might affect multiple genes. It would seem obvious then that overlapping codes would make DNA more compact at the expense of fragility and highlight the profound unlikelihood of any random change resulting in anything beneficial. It would also highlight the unlikelihood of an overlapping code evolving in the first place. -QQuerius
May 31, 2015
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Popperian: Having quickly read over your series of statements I cannot particularly find anything I would say I contend with right now. And I also agree you push the problem of abiogenesis except I follow that through further than I suspect you do in that I believe the problem is pushed to a point that a naturalistic mechanism becomes implausible. Let me ask you a series of questions now : - a man dies, at least as can be verified through human observation (not machine) - the dead man is wrapped in grave clothes, not embalmed or had any procedure to avoid decay - the man is dead for 4 days - there is a stench from the body consistent with decay - another man commands a dead decomposing body to come out of the grave where the body has laid for 4 days - the man comes out, alive, no decomposition visible What would be a naturalistic explanation of those events? Let us assume he was truly dead and not in a coma?Dr JDD
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD:
However as you have just proven, materialists aren’t willing to entertain that idea but rather emphatically state as fact these things are inefficient.
Actually wd400 is right. They are inefficient. But that's hardly a point in itself. Evolutionary theory needs to explain why.Mung
May 31, 2015
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Note that none of this suggests to wd400 that Darwinism could possibly be false!bornagain77
May 31, 2015
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Why would natural selection favor inefficient cells? But it must have.
No.wd400
May 31, 2015
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Your paradigm has just smothered an interesting finding with several speculations not based on any direct experimental evidence relating to the Drosophila findings.
Nah. I looked at new (to me) experimental evidence in the light of what we know about the world. Knowing something prior to reading a study is not the same as "smothering" the study's findings. The results are surprising to be, because they suggest either (a) subfunctinalisation is more common than I thought (b) genes rapidly get tied up in networks (which doesn't seem to be the case generally) (c) a bit of both of these. It's also conceivable that some other process explains these results, but being skeptical means weighing new evidence against what we already know. Again, it will be interesting to see how the fitness effects of mutations in new genes come about.wd400
May 31, 2015
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“New genes are no longer just vinegar, they are now equally likely to be butter and bread. We were shocked.” Shocked I tell you! Shocked! We were shocked!Mung
May 31, 2015
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wd400:
I don’t know why you keep going on about materialism, but evolutionary biologists don’t make these claims. For one, eukaryotic cells are plenty inefficient as it is.
And I think this nicely illustrates some of the points. I wonder how inefficient the internal combustion engine is. Therefore not designed? Bad design? Incompetent designer? Why would natural selection favor inefficient cells? But it must have.Mung
May 31, 2015
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wd400 retreated with,
It’s interesting, but why would you need “unknown meachanisms”. Subfunctionalisation (a classic model of gene evolution) should let to lots lethals in knockdowns of new genes. For other models of gene evolution you need only to have the new gene co-evolve with those in an existing network.
So why did you say that you were surprised? Your response quoted above is why I was surprised that you were surprised. Maybe my parenthetically excepting you was not a mistake after all. Your paradigm has just smothered an interesting finding with several speculations not based on any direct experimental evidence relating to the Drosophila findings. Again, why did you say you were surprised? -QQuerius
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD
This is just shifting goalposts and anyone with that view has the same problem. Namely, that any advanced intelligent agency confined to the observable time-space dimension contained within this universe still is subject to the same problem we are discussing here. Ultimately, the problem of natural abiogenesis.
You objected as I expected you would. All that does is push the problem of abiogenesis up a level without actually improving it, right? Yet, I've been pointing out that ID does the same thing. It merely pushes the problem of the origin of the knowledge found in organisms up a level without actually improving it. Yet, when I point this out, ID proponents just don't seem to care or even point out where they object, in detail. I'll illustrate why this is the case with a series of what we will both likely consider uncontroversial aspects of biology. Please indicate where in this series that you disagree. Perhaps you'll be the first to actually do so.
- Unlike cars or computers, organisms are not built in an "organism factory". Nor have we observed new organisms in recent history appearing out of thin air. Instead, organisms make copies of themselves. - As von Neumann pointed out, self-replication cannot occur without an internal recipe for how to perform the copy and a means of error correction to prevent an error catastrophe. In the case of biological organisms, self replication occurs when cells follow an internal recipe containing instructions of how to adapt raw materials such as air, water, etc. into copies of themselves. Cells contain discrete mechanisms that are reasonably effective enough against specific kinds of errors that can occur to, significantly more often than not, prevent a complete error catastrophe when copying its recipe. - The concrete features of an organism are a result of those transformations. Had an organism's cells contain a different recipe, it would have had different concrete features. Different organisms have different adapted concrete features because their cells contain different recipes.
With me so far? Again, I would think even you would find these aspects are uncontroversial, Right? if not, please indicate any objections you might have. However, as I continue, I suspect we may start to diverge somewhere below.
- An organism's recipe represent the knowledge of what transformations are necessary to result in an accurate copy of those organisms. Specifically, copies of organisms occur when the requisite knowledge of what transformations to perform are present in their cells. Again, organisms are not made in organism factories, where the knowledge of what transformations to perform would be external to the organism. Nor do organisms appear out of thin air by fiat. - As such, the origin of those features is the origin of the knowledge of what adoptions to perform.
Still with me? If not, where does your view differ and how?Popperian
May 31, 2015
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wd400, you are the one who is just plain wrong in your claim that 'conservation of sequence' overrules observed functionality i.e. overrules ENCODE. Darwinists have yet to demonstrate the origination of a single gene and/or protein by unguided material processes, and yet you seem more than willing to claim that it is beyond all doubt that all species arose spontaneously from a common ancestor and therefore conservation of sequence determines functionality better than actual functionality determines functionality? That claim is beyond ludicrous! That claim is so wildly beyond what the evidence states it is 'not even wrong'. As Egnor stated in regards to Darwinian claims: A Neurosurgeon, Not A Darwinist - Michael Egnor Excerpt: "I read all that I could find. Johnson. Dawkins. Wells. Berra. Behe. Dennett. Dembski. What I found is this: The claims of evolutionary biologists go wildly beyond the evidence. "The fossil record shows sharp discontinuity between species, not the gradual transitions that Darwinism inherently predicts. Darwin’s theory offers no coherent, evidence-based explanation for the evolution of even a single molecular pathway from primordial components. The origin of the genetic code belies random causation. All codes with which we have experience arise from intelligent agency. Intricate biomolecules such as enzymes are so functionally complex that it’s difficult to see how they could arise by random mutations.... "The fight against the design inference in biology is motivated by fundamentalist atheism. Darwinists detest intelligent design theory because it is compatible with belief in God. "But the evidence is unassailable. The most reasonable scientific explanation for functional biological complexity–the genetic code and the intricate nanotechnology inside living cells–is that they were designed by intelligent agency. There is no scientific evidence that unintelligent processes can create substantial new biological structures and function."There is no unintelligent process known to science that can generate codes and machines. I still consider religious explanations for biology to be unscientific at best, dogma at worst. But I understand now that Darwinism itself is a religious creed that masquerades as science. Darwin’s theory of biological origins is atheism’s creation myth, and atheists defend their dogma with religious fervor. - Michael Egnor is a professor and vice chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/06/neurosurgeon-intelligent-design-opinions-darwin09_0205_michael_egnor.htmlbornagain77
May 31, 2015
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Popperian complained,
The problem with Querius example is current race car “theory” is already well understood. As such, we have a relatively firm grasp of all the key problems that are associated with their operation and can perform an inventory or checklist of solutions that are needed to solve them.
This would imply that you're depending on a shroud of uncertainty in evolutionary explanations. The sports car engine is not understood by everyone, and history is replete with examples of reverse engineering. What I pointed out is the weakness in evolutionary speculation.
This would include a cooling fan, or some other means to dissipate heat. So, even before we start evaluating the car, we have a vast amount of knowledge we can utilize up front to identify functional components.
Which once again demonstrates the advantage of the ID paradigm---we're looking for advantages on the presumption of design rather than useless junk, vestiges of evolutionary development, or genetic drift.
Furthermore, racing is a highly competitive sport that hinges on hyper-efficiency. Unless it performs a compulsory role required to enter the race itself, such as safety or communications, we would not expect to find any significant components that have lost their function as they would unnecessarily increase the weight of the car.
Isn't evolution dependent on competition as well? :o
And we know what is necessary because, well, race car “theory” is already well understood.
As compared with evolutionary theory? Yes. Exactly. The ID paradigm is that it's likely that biological components that are poorly understood do have a purpose and are necessary to win the race for life. Disclaimer: I have not otherwise communicated with Popperian, nor is he my sock puppet. Everything he wrote was on his own initiative, not mine. -QQuerius
May 31, 2015
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