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Guest Post: Part 1 of 2: Qualitative Complex and Specified Information within genes – An Introduction

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Today’s guest post comes to us from one of our regular commenters, Dr.JDD. All that follows is his:

I would like to start off this post by emphasising this is not meant to be seen in any way as a “disproof” nor an “attempt to disprove” the appearance of complex proteins in eukaryotic cells through proposed unguided evolutionary mechanisms. This is rather I hope something to stir up discussion and engage thought in particular to those who wish to understand better the real complexities and challenges that are needed to be overcome, if indeed we were to accept such proposed mechanisms as genuine and real.

We all know that mutations in DNA can result in a different amino acid appearing in a protein. For example the DNA triplet codon if read as “CTT” would be translated to the amino acid Leucine (L; obviously via the mRNA intermediate). However, if there was a mutation from the C to the G, the frame would read “GTT” and this would be translated into a Valine (V). As we all further know, we can have deleterious, neutral, and beneficial mutations (in a given context). Additionally, a mutation in the third letter of the DNA triplet codon is often redundant at the level of the amino acid because of the redundant nature of the genetic code (“perfectly optimised” many would say). Obviously then, removal of or insertion of a new DNA base will have a much greater impact on the sequence (as you will shift the reading frame) and therefore is usually deleterious.

Now I would make a request that I am not attacked for over-simplifying this concept, but to talk very simply about evolutionary change, mutations will occur at random in certain positions in the DNA sequence and this may be inherited (germline mutations) with a consequence of either deleterious, neutral or beneficial, with most “thought to be near-neutral.”

There remains a question though that has fascinated me for a while, and led me to look at some examples of this. What if we discovered other layers of code within the same gene? What would be the impact of a mutation on this other code, relative to the foremost code? How much would this then limit the availability of more than one code to co-evolve, realistically?

Now these are not questions I personally can easily answer nor have the capacity to answer, to any full degree. But I think it is something interesting that others who are perhaps smarter and of a more “code-orientated” training and mind-set should consider, especially in the context of the ID paradigm.

Just to make a “disclaimer” as well – I profess to not be an expert in this area. My PhD and some of my first post-doctoral work was in the endocytic pathway and protein trafficking and I then moved on to human Immunology. I am no longer in academia but rather the pharmaceutical world so the way I approach research and scientific questions is perhaps a little different than the academic approach, but personally I do not see that as a bad thing. I am not a geneticist is the main point I am making, although I obviously have some training in that field (not that this is an exceptionally useful thing).

Now with the advance of proteomics and our ability to detect peptides and “map” the human proteome, a lot of information has come to light. In particular, it is apparent we are “missing” a lot of proteins found in cells but not annotated as genes in our databases. Surprisingly, for quite some time the field has held to the dogma of one gene, one Open Reading Frame (ORF) – and potentially many different proteins due to alternative splicing events, for example. Yet recent studies mapping the human proteome (“A draft map of the human proteome.” Kim et al. 2014. Nature. 509, 575-581) have yielded many MS spectra that cannot be assigned to annotated genes in the human genome. With that publication in the prestigious Nature journal, one researcher made a very insightful comment which I would like to focus on (emphasis mine):

 

Xavier Roucou 2014 Jul 15
Among several significant contributions in this work, the discovery of 44 novel protein-coding open reading frames (ORFs) illustrates the complexity of the human proteome. Recently, we reported the discovery of 83,886 previously undescribed ORFs termed alternative ORFs (AltORFs) Vanderperre B, 2013. AltORFs are defined as ORFs present in the transcriptome that are different from annotated ORFs. We detected 1,259 proteins translated from AltORFs in human biological samples Vanderperre B, 2013. While the role and importance of this “alternative proteome” will require substantial further validation, there can be no doubt that a comprehensive description of the human proteome must include the distinct possibility of a vastly greater number of functional proteins than has been traditionally considered. Given the existence of the alternative proteome, it is not surprising that Kim et al. found that nearly 50% of the 35 million MS/MS spectra of human proteins did not match proteins in the NCBI’s RefSeq human protein sequence database. In an attempt to identify these novel proteins, the authors translated the human reference genome, RefSeq transcript sequences, non-coding RNAs, and pseudogenes. Among the 193 newly identified proteins, 44 were translated from novel uORFs, ORFs located in an alternate reading frame within coding regions of annotated genes, or ORFs located in 3’-UTRs. The astonishing failure to have detected the alternative proteome years ago results from the fact that MS-based proteomic methods rely on existing protein sequence databases that are far from complete and therefore do not allow the assignment of all MS/MS spectra. Recent ribosome profiling and footprinting approaches have suggested the significant use of unconventional translation initiation sites in mammals Ingolia NT, 2011 Lee S, 2012 Michel AM, 2012, and these alternative proteins should have been detected. In order to better define the human proteome, we generated a new database of alternative ORFs (AltORFs) present in NCBI’s RefSeq human mRNA sequence database. AltORFs overlap the annotated or reference protein coding ORF (RefORF) in an alternate reading frame, are located in the 5′- and 3′-UTR regions of an mRNA, or partially overlap with both the RefORF and an UTR region. This approach led to the discovery of 83,886 unique AltORFs with a minimum size of 40 codons Vanderperre B, 2013. The majority of mRNAs (87%) have at least one predicted AltORF, with an average of 3.88 AltORFs per mRNA. Additionally, the evolutionary conservation of many of these reading frames suggests functional importance. These AltORFs were translated in silico and included in an alternative protein database we used to interpret unmatched MS/MS spectra. So far, we and others have identified nearly 1300 alternative proteins in different human cell lines and tissues Vanderperre B, 2013, Klemke M, 2001 Oyama M, 2004 Vanderperre B, 2011 Bergeron D, 2013 Slavoff SA, 2013 Menschaert G, 2013, including certain of the 44 new proteins mentioned in the Kim et al. study: the alternative protein translated from the AltORFs mapping to the 5’-UTR of the SLC35A4 gene (or AltSLC35A4), was detected in Hela cells and lung tissue; the AltC11orf48 was detected in Hela cells, colon, lung and ovary tissues; and the AltCHTF8 was detected in Hela cells Vanderperre B, 2013. Twenty four of the 44 novel ORFs detected by Kim et al. were, in fact, already present in our AltORF database, and 9 of the 44 proteins translated from these novel ORFs were previously detected: AltASNSD1, AltSLC35A4, AltMKKS, AltSMCR7L, AltCHTF8, AltRPP14, AltSF1, AltC110rf48, AltHNRNPUL12. In this sense, Kim et al.`s study strongly supports the existence of the alternative proteome. Clearly, the alternative proteins detected by Kim et al. and by our team are the proverbial tip of the iceberg. A full map of the human proteome is thus still years away, and will require several important changes in our current thinking concerning the proteome and the concept that each mature mRNA only codes for one protein.

I could spend quite a long time talking about how fascinating this is, how little we know about proteins at present and how dogma has led us down a path to ignore an abundance of proteins just because they do not fit the standard model of thinking. It is truly amazing how little attention this line of work receives. For example, >90% of people I work with are PhD-level molecular and cellular biologists, and I have not yet met one who, when I have spoken of these things to them, is aware such layers of complexity exist. The dogma changes very slowly.

However what I wish to focus on are these AltORFs that are present in different reading frames of an already existing gene. Hopefully some of you will find this as utterly fascinating as I have. Hopefully some of you will even be able to think about the probabilistic implications to the evolutionary paradigm that this may (or may not) raise. I think most of us are fascinated by biology in one way or another so hopefully at least the first purpose will see some fulfilment.

As already discussed, a protein product is translated from an initial DNA code (via messenger RNA). This code is in triple – so 3 bases code for 1 amino acid, usually. However the reading frame is important. For example, consider the set of 3-letter words below:

THE CAT WAS NOT FAT

That makes sense and gives a message. Now let us change the way we read that by starting the 3-letter words from a reading frame shifted 1 letter over:

HEC ATW ASN OTF

What you notice is the message is completely lost – you cannot see any similarity to the first message, when looking at the triplets. Note – this is not one of those naïve attempts to use language to represent what happens with DNA code. That is different because in language you need to have particular combinations of letters to make the message viable. Whereas with DNA code, all you need are 3 of the four bases – any combination will give a message, either one of the 20 (usually) amino acids, or a stop code (or a start but that is the same as an amino acid, Met). That does not mean functionality of the polypeptide, but there is still a message. So this is just to illustrate you change the message – not you lose it!

Equally then, let us shift the reading frame over one again:

ECA TWA SNO TFA

All 3 messages are quite different. So what about with a DNA code and reading in different frames? Here is an example:

ATG CTT CAA TGC AGA TTC CCG GTT TCT TAG

Now ATG in DNA codes for the start codon and is a Methionine (M). TAG is one of several stop codons. So the translated result of such a code would be:

M-L-Q-C-R-F-P-V-S-*(STOP)

However, if you were to read in an alternative frame (shifted over 2 times from the original), you would see that starting at the 9th letter, we now observe a potential start codon of ATG appear:

(AT) GCT TCA ATG CAG ATT CCC GGT TTC CTT (AG)

This would then translate to (caveat – no stop codon here):

M-Q-I-P-G-F-L-…

As you can see, this looks quite different to the first peptidic sequence (ignoring the unavoidable starting Met). Given such a vastly different sequence, one may expect quite a different looking protein to be produced: a protein with different folds, structure and function (obviously this case is an example and neither sequence are long enough to be considered a “protein” as such but rather a short peptide, but this is merely to illustrate a principle).

So again, those that like to be fascinated by these things and consider paradigms let us consider a few things:

1) How does this affect the evolution of a protein when proposed to be through unguided processes?

2) What constraints are placed on apparent “neutral” or near-neutral mutations?

3) How does this affect the way you interpret an apparent “redundant” mutation in the DNA code?

4) Given the vastly different nature of the amino acid code (and thus strong chance of differing structure, folds and function), what are the probabilistic likelihood of such an alternative ORF (AltORF) encoding for a protein that plays a very close role with the common ORF it is found within?

Just to speak to some of those questions in particular with regards to points 1-3, I think broadly speaking this makes unguided evolution a lot harder. The reason being is any evolutionary changes to this region of overlapping ORFs in different frames means that a change has to be tolerated by BOTH proteins simultaneously. Where a mutation may have been neutral/near neutral before for the standard ORF now has to also be likewise (or beneficial) for the AltORF. As you are in a completely different reading frame, a conservative point mutation in the DNA code could very easily insert an aberrant stop codon for example into the AltORF. Suddenly, the layers are complicated (and this is just considering one single AltORF that overlaps). Thus without full understanding of the potential AltORFs present in a gene, one cannot simply state that a mutation is either a) neutral/near neutral/beneficial, b) redundant or c) conservative.

For example, in the above case we have as the 7th triplet in the original ORF, CCG which translates to a P (Proline). Let us say that we have a mutation from CCG to CCC – a single point mutation. This, in the original ORF is redundant – you still encode for a P. However, in the altORF that mutation has now changed a GGT to a CGT which is a Cysteine (C) to an Arginine (R). Those amino acids are not even close to being conservative (e.g. an L to a V might be considered a conservative change as these are both small hydrophobic residues). So you can see that the impact now of a single mutation which under the usual accepted paradigm of DNA code is seen as conservative or even redundant, suddenly becomes the opposite of this.

In part 2, I will try to review and summarise a paper that describes one such AltORF that overlaps with an existing normal gene, with implications in disease. Putting it into this context I think will help fascinate those of interest further, and also demonstrate some of the challenges unguided evolution must overcome.

Comments
I don't know Q, this sounds like someone claiming something about conservation to me...
Evolutionary conservation is a highly misleading way to infer functional importance.
I see what you mean—there’s really no compelling evidence.
It's also just wrong. (It's not the only way to infer function, but no one has claimed that to be the case)
Yes. And it hasn’t been repeated by other labs and with other genes. Nevertheless, it still seems to have actually occurred, and there still must be an unknown mechanism involved.
It's interesting, but why would you need "unknown meachanisms". Subfunctionalisation (a classic model of gene evolution) should let to lots lethals in knockdowns of new genes. For other models of gene evolution you need only to have the new gene co-evolve with those in an existing network. It will be interesting to see how the fitness effects of mutations/deletions in new genes comes about, but it's not some dark mystery.wd400
May 31, 2015
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Wd400 said,
That is a surprising paper, but it’s hardly evidence that phylogenetically recent genes are generally as important as ancient ones.
No, I don't think anyone is generalizing yet, but that something like this exists at all is astonishing, something which you also seem to acknowledge, which quite honestly surprised me.
It’s one experiment in one species with a handful (200) of genes testing only lethality of complete knockdowns.
Yes. And it hasn't been repeated by other labs and with other genes. Nevertheless, it still seems to have actually occurred, and there still must be an unknown mechanism involved. Ask yourself this. Does this discovery make you curious as to how it occurred, or does it make you rather wish this evidence would go away or be discredited? The paper you referenced is of course what one would expect and a valuable addition to our knowledge.
My comment had nothing to do with paradigms. You claimed that evolutionary conservation wasn’t a good predictor of biological function.
I wasn't “claiming” anything about evolutionary conservation---it was news to me as well. I was reacting to the discovery “that the importance of a gene have (sic) been shown not to correlate with its genetic age” and what it means. The problem with paradigms is that one can easily become stuck in one and not realize it. This applies to me as well as you.
. . . but if you are so insulated from the evidence that you can get something this wrong then I don’t know why anyone would bother with your opinion.
The irony has been noted. ;-) -QQuerius
May 31, 2015
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photosynthesis is inefficient? care to cite? I certainly can cite evidence to the contrary! as to 'dead viruses": ERVs use to be a favorite of Darwinists to try to support common ancestry, but, in much the same fashion as new ORFan genes are found to be functional much earlier than thought, that claim was found to be false: Refutation Of Endogenous Retrovirus - ERVs - Richard Sternberg, PhD Evolutionary Biology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrEOe2E0Euc Sternberg, R. v. & J. A. Shapiro (2005). How repeated retroelements format genome function. Cytogenet. Genome Res. 110: 108-116. Excerpt: Employing an information science model, the "functionalist" perspective on repetitive DNA leads to new ways of thinking about the systemic organization of cellular genomes and provides several novel possibilities involving retroelements in evolutionarily significant genome reorganization. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16093662 Shapiro and Sternberg Anticipated the Fall of Junk DNA - Douglas Axe - September 13, 2012 Excerpt: "In 2005, I published two articles on the functional importance of repetitive DNA with Rick von Sternberg. The major article was entitled "Why repetitive DNA is essential to genome function." These articles with Rick are important to me (and to this blog) for two reasons. The first is that shortly after we submitted them, Rick became a momentary celebrity of the Intelligent Design movement. Critics have taken my co-authorship with Rick as an excuse for "guilt-by-association" claims that I have some ID or Creationist agenda, an allegation with no basis in anything I have written. The second reason the two articles with Rick are important is because they were, frankly, prescient, anticipating the recent ENCODE results. Our basic idea was that the genome is a highly sophisticated information storage organelle. Just like electronic data storage devices, the genome must be highly formatted by generic (i.e. repeated) signals that make it possible to access the stored information when and where it will be useful." - James Shapiro http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/shapiro_and_ste064291.html Endogenous retroviruses regulate periimplantation placental growth and differentiation - 2006 http://www.pnas.org/content/103/39/14390.abstract. Retrovirus in the Human Genome Is Active in Pluripotent Stem Cells - Jan. 23, 2013 Excerpt: "What we've observed is that a group of endogenous retroviruses called HERV-H is extremely busy in human embryonic stem cells," said Jeremy Luban, MD, the David L. Freelander Memorial Professor in HIV/AIDS Research, professor of molecular medicine and lead author of the study. "In fact, HERV-H is one of the most abundantly expressed genes in pluripotent stem cells and it isn't found in any other cell types. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130123133930.htmbornagain77
May 31, 2015
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. However as you have just proven, materialists aren’t willing to entertain that idea but rather emphatically state as fact these things are inefficient
There you go with "materialists" again... It's just true that many cellular processes are inefficient in eukaryotes. Our cells replicate dead viruses from millions of years ago, photosynthesis is inefficient, our polymerases could introduce fewer errors than they do, transcription produces abarent transcripts that our cells then have to go and mop up with various techniques... All I'm saying is that while we wait to learn how important alternative ORFs are, we should remember that simply detecting their products by MS is a long way from establishing a wide-spread role.wd400
May 31, 2015
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Dr JJ:
That is, if someone were to observe let’s say as Querius suggests, a cooling fan, there are 2 simple theories. One theory is it looks like some distant functional component of a “related” transport machine it derived from and has lost function. Another theory is that it serves an important function in the sports car and that it is not a lost unnecessary feature.
The problem with Querius example is current race car "theory" is already well understood. As such, we have a relatively firm grasp of all the key problems that are associated with their operation and can perform an inventory or checklist of solutions that are needed to solve them. This would include a cooling fan, or some other means to dissipate heat. So, even before we start evaluating the car, we have a vast amount of knowledge we can utilize up front to identify functional components. Furthermore, racing is a highly competitive sport that hinges on hyper-efficiency. Unless it performs a compulsory role required to enter the race itself, such as safety or communications, we would not expect to find any significant components that have lost their function as they would unnecessarily increase the weight of the car. And we know what is necessary because, well, race car "theory" is already well understood. However, in the case of biological organisms, we do not have nearly the same vast amount of similar knowledge we can utilize up front to identify functional components. And we lack a inventory or checklist because we are developing theories about how those systems actually work, in detail, at the same time. That is, we have outstanding problems to solve in the case of biological organisms, which we have already solved in the case of race cars. Which brings me back to my comment about best practices for problem solving. Merely assuming something has an abstract purpose doesn't actually help us solve those problems. That's because abstract functionally cannot be found in conflict with empirical observations. Rather, we must first conjecture some concrete functional role for it to play. While observation are plentiful, good explanatory theories to explain them are not. Nor would we start out with the most complicated and difficult theories for us to test even if they were. When we find our theories wanting, are not merely wanting in some abstract way, they are wanting in very specific ways that constrain the way we approach the problem going forward, which gives us clues we didn't have before. Until then, assuming parts have some abstract function doesn't actually helpful, in practice. IOW, there is no practical difference between a component that we think plays no role in solving a particular problem and a component for which we have no concrete idea of what functional role it plays in solving that same problem. Neither of which can be actually used to explain anything in science.Popperian
May 31, 2015
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wd400: Modern science is filled with examples of cellular processes that are deemed as we currently understand them to be, to be very highly efficient. Further, modern science has many examples of things in biology once thought to be quite inefficient yet when our understanding deepens we have found it was our misunderstanding rather than the reality. so while you may describe many cellular processes to be abberent and inefficient, I will prefer to sit on the fence and entertain the possibility that we just don't have a good understanding of them (and the cell as a whole) yet. I actually believe many findings in cellular biology support taking that view. However as you have just proven, materialists aren't willing to entertain that idea but rather emphatically state as fact these things are inefficient. Why? Because it fits nicely with their world view and to them pokes holes in the design inference. Low hanging fruit.Dr JDD
May 31, 2015
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wd400 at 41 claims
"That is a surprising paper, but it’s hardly evidence that phylogenetically recent genes are generally as important as ancient ones. It’s one experiment in one species with a handful (200) of genes testing only lethality of complete knockdowns."
Yet, Fruit Flies are considered model organisms to test general principles of metazoans on, so it is hardly 'one species'. The authors themselves comment that the implications of their study could very well be important for human health:
"I think it has important implications on human health," Chen said. "Animal models have proven to be very useful and important for dissecting human disease."
As to the only a 'handful of genes' gripe of wd400, it is interesting to note the full context of the study that wd400 tried to downplay the significance of:
"But when nearly 200 new genes in the fruit fly species Drosophila melanogaster were individually silenced in laboratory experiments at the University of Chicago, more than 30 percent of the knockdowns were found to kill the fly. The study, published December 17 in Science, suggests that new genes are equally important for the successful development and survival of an organism as older genes. "A new gene is as essential as any other gene; the importance of a gene is independent of its age," said Manyuan Long, PhD, Professor of Ecology & Evolution and senior author of the paper. "New genes are no longer just vinegar, they are now equally likely to be butter and bread. We were shocked." The study used technology called RNA interference to permanently block the transcription of each targeted gene into its functional product from the beginning of a fly's life. Of the 195 young genes tested, 59 were lethal (30 percent), causing the fly to die during its development. When the same method was applied to a sample of older genes, a statistically similar figure was found: 86 of 245 genes (35 percent) were lethal when silenced. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101216142523.htm
The authors also comment in the main paper:
New genes in Drosophila quickly become essential. – December 2010 Excerpt: The proportion of genes that are essential is similar in every evolutionary age group that we examined. Under constitutive silencing of these young essential genes, lethality was high in the pupal (later) stage and (but was) also found in the larval (early) stages. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6011/1682.abstract
Thus contrary to what wd400 tried to portray, the study's implications are hardly limited in scope. Of note to ORFan genes in general: The 'anomaly' of unique ORFan genes is found to be widespread. i.e. The 'anomaly' of unique ORFan genes is found in every new genome sequenced, taking up a fairly large percentage of each new genome sequenced:
,,,”Typical bacterial species. The smallest part of the pie are the genes that all bacteria share. 8% roughly. This second and largest slice (of the pie, 64%) are the genes that are specialized to some particular environment. They call them character genes. By far the biggest number of genes are the ones that are unique. This big green ball here (on the right of the illustration). These are genes found only in one species or its near relatives. Those are the ORFans (i.e. Genes with no ancestry). They said, on the basis of our analysis the genetic diversity of bacteria is of infinite size.” Paul Nelson – quoted from 8:53 minute mark of the following video Widespread ORFan Genes Challenge Common Descent – Paul Nelson – video with references http://www.vimeo.com/17135166
You can see the pie chart that Dr. Nelson used in his talk here on page 108 (figure 2) of this following article:
Estimating the size of the bacterial pan-genome Excerpt Figure 2 pg. 108: At the genomic level, a typical bacterial genome is composed of _8% of core genes, 64% of character genes and 28% of accessory genes,,, also from the cite: Estimating the size of the bacterial pan-genome - Pascal Lapierre and J. Peter Gogarten - 2008 Excerpt: We have found greater than 139 000 rare (ORFan) gene families scattered throughout the bacterial genomes included in this study. The finding that the fitted exponential function approaches a plateau indicates an open pan-genome (i.e. the bacterial protein universe is of infinite size); a finding supported through extrapolation using a Kezdy-Swinbourne plot (Figure S3). This does not exclude the possibility that, with many more sampled genomes, the number of novel genes per additional genome might ultimately decline; however, our analyses and those presented in Ref. [11] do not provide any indication for such a decline and confirm earlier observations that many new protein families with few members remain to be discovered. http://www.paulyu.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Estimating-the-size-of-the-bacterial-pan-genome.pdf The essential genome of a bacterium - 2011 Figure (C): Venn diagram of overlap between Caulobacter and E. coli ORFs (outer circles) as well as their subsets of essential ORFs (inner circles). Less than 38% of essential Caulobacter ORFs are conserved and essential in E. coli. Only essential Caulobacter ORFs present in the STING database were considered, leading to a small disparity in the total number of essential Caulobacter ORFs. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202797/pdf/msb201158.pdf
Multicellular creatures have the same 'anomaly' of unexpectedly large percentage of new ORFan genes found in each new species sequenced:
Genes from nowhere: Orphans with a surprising story - 16 January 2013 - Helen Pilcher Excerpt: When biologists began sequencing genomes they discovered up to a third of genes in each species seemed to have no parents or family of any kind. Nevertheless, some of these "orphan genes" are high achievers (are just as essential as 'old' genes),,, But where do they come from? With no obvious ancestry, it was as if these genes appeared out of nowhere, but that couldn't be true. Everyone assumed that as we learned more, we would discover what had happened to their families. But we haven't-quite the opposite, in fact.,,, The upshot is that the chances of random mutations turning a bit of junk DNA into a new gene seem infinitesmally small. As the French biologist Francois Jacob wrote 35 years ago, "the probability that a functional protein would appear de novo by random association of amino acids is practically zero".,,, Orphan genes have since been found in every genome sequenced to date, from mosquito to man, roundworm to rat, and their numbers are still growing. http://ccsb.dfci.harvard.edu/web/export/sites/default/ccsb/publications/papers/2013/All_alone_-_Helen_Pilcher_New_Scientist_Jan_2013.pdf
Moreover, such a large percentage of unique ORFan genes were certainly not predicted by Darwinian theory and by all rights, ORFan genes should have falsified Darwinian theory. But Darwinists simply ignored the falsification that ORFans presented to their theory and moved right ahead as if their theory had not, in fact, been dealt a devastatingly fatal blow:
Proteins and Genes, Singletons and Species - Branko Kozuli? PhD. Biochemistry Excerpt: Horizontal gene transfer is common in prokaryotes but rare in eukaryotes [89-94], so HGT cannot account for (ORFan) singletons in eukaryotic genomes, including the human genome and the genomes of other mammals.,,, The trend towards higher numbers of (ORFan) singletons per genome seems to coincide with a higher proportion of the eukaryotic genomes sequenced. In other words, eukaryotes generally contain a larger number of singletons than eubacteria and archaea.,,, That hypothesis - that evolution strives to preserve a protein domain once it stumbles upon it contradicts the power law distribution of domains. The distribution graphs clearly show that unique domains are the most abundant of all domain groups [21, 66, 67, 70, 72, 79, 82, 86, 94, 95], contrary to their expected rarity.,,, Evolutionary biologists of earlier generations have not anticipated [164, 165] the challenge that (ORFan) singletons pose to contemporary biologists. By discovering millions of unique genes biologists have run into brick walls similar to those hit by physicists with the discovery of quantum phenomena. The predominant viewpoint in biology has become untenable: we are witnessing a scientific revolution of unprecedented proportions. http://vixra.org/pdf/1105.0025v1.pdf Is the Origin of New Genes “Basically a Solved Problem”? - Cornelius Hunter - Sept. 11, 2014 Excerpt: If you read the headlines, you would have the impression that the problem is well in hand. For instance, super-star science writer Carl Zimmer wrote in the New York Times earlier this year that “researchers have documented the step-by-step process by which a new gene can come into existence.” Case closed right? Well not quite. In fact, not even close. What Zimmer tells his readers is a “step-by-step process” is what scientists affectionately refer to as a cartoon. In fact, here it is:,,, ,,,This evolutionary narrative is certainly not “basically a solved problem.” In fact, what evolutionists have are high claims of the spontaneous evolution of incredibly complex structures, not because of the evidence, but in spite of the evidence. So what gives evolutionist’s their confidence? It is not that they understand how such genes could have evolved, but that the genes must have evolved because solo genes are observed over and over: "Several studies have by now also shown that de novo emerged transcripts and proteins can assume a function within the organism. All of this provided solid evidence that de novo gene birth was indeed possible.",,, Does any of this mean that the de novo genes evolved from random mutations as the evolutionists claim? Of course not.,,, Only a few years ago they agreed that such evolution of new genes would be impossible. Now they have been forced to adopt it because the evidence unambiguously reveals solo genes, and evolutionists dogmatically insist that everything must have spontaneously evolved.,, http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/09/is-origin-of-new-genes-basically-solved.html
Moreover, Darwinists have yet to actually demonstrate that unguided material processes can create even a single gene of those hundreds to thousands of new genes being found in each new species sequenced:
"Charles Darwin said (paraphrase), 'If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.' Well that condition has been met time and time again. Basically every gene, every protein fold. There is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in a gradualist way. It's a mirage. None of it happens that way." - Doug Axe PhD - Nothing In Molecular Biology Is Gradual - video https://vimeo.com/118128889
bornagain77
May 31, 2015
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Popperian: This is just shifting goalposts and anyone with that view has the same problem. Namely, that any advanced intelligent agency confined to the observable time-space dimension contained within this universe still is subject to the same problem we are discussing here. Ultimately, the problem of natural abiogenesis. So either you MUST be a materialist or you are a theist (where your theism recognises intelligence outside the confines of the observable universe). There really is no alternative. Even if you want to believe in a multiverse and somehow an advanced intelligent alien traversed across to our universe. You still have a problem of naturalistic abiogenesis to overcome. That is why you rarely hear the view you have proposed. It's logical conclusion makes you still choose between theism and naturalism.Dr JDD
May 31, 2015
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Our materialist friends will however argue that they once were horribly inefficient (but provided benefit over even less efficiency before so selected for) it’s just that what we see around us now is the product of evolution: inefficiencies selected out. Which they claim is as predicted.
I don't know why you keep going on about materialism, but evolutionary biologists don't make these claims. For one, eukaryotic cells are plenty inefficient as it is. I have little doubt many of these altORFs will be aberrant, just like many alternative transcripts have turned out to be. As I understand it, most of these ORFs that have been validated are in UTRs where they may well be a kludgy way of controlling the timing/folding of translation of the primary transcript. There is certainly no requirement that a change provide a benefit in order for it to be fixed -- it only needs to make little or no difference to the host's fitness.wd400
May 31, 2015
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Bornagain77 mentioned it in 3. Here’s the link so you won’t have to scroll up:
That is a surprising paper, but it's hardly evidence that phylogenetically recent genes are generally as important as ancient ones. It's one experiment in one species with a handful (200) of genes testing only lethality of complete knockdowns. More generally, young genes are usually smaller, involved in fewer networks and less effected by purifying selection (i.e. more mutations are tolerated). A recent paper on this last point, with repsect to gene expression in particular: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25480033
A person’s preconceptions and chosen paradigm largely determines their perceptions and interpretation...
My comment had nothing to do with paradigms. You claimed that evolutionary conservation wasn't a good predictor of biological function. That's just wrong, I linked earlier to a paper in which phylogenetic conservation alone was shown to be a good predictor of a mutation's severity. You don't have to accept to evolutionary biology, but if you are so insulated from the evidence that you can get something this wrong then I don't know why anyone would bother with your opinion.wd400
May 31, 2015
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Mung #35: But we are talking about codes here, and first we have to get them to admit that the codes actually exist, and not just as a metaphor.
Indeed. Our materialist friends, as Dr JDD calls them, can get really nasty about "code", "protocol" and so forth, but when I put it to them that, under materialism, there is no such thing as an "organism"—that it is just fermions and bosons—then they suddenly make a U-turn and pretend not to understand.Box
May 31, 2015
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Mung:
But we are talking about codes here, and first we have to get them to admit that the codes actually exist, and not just as a metaphor.
Again, baffling, behavior. You'd essentially admitted to not reading the paper i referenced, which addresses that very issue. It's as if you think the answer has been revealed to you though some infallible source which is simply not subject to criticism.Popperian
May 31, 2015
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Dr DD wrote:
Our materialist friends will however argue that they once were horribly inefficient (but provided benefit over even less efficiency before so selected for) it’s just that what we see around us now is the product of evolution: inefficiencies selected out. Which they claim is as predicted.
I find this kind of talk baffling. What does being a materialist have to do with it? Couldn't the designer just as well be a highly advanced, material alien civilization that seeded our planet with simple, inefficient replicators, as described in the paper I referenced, that gets natural selection going?Popperian
May 31, 2015
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I’m sitting front row on this one. BTW I’m wondering how much AltORFs we humans share with chimpanzee/bonobo.
Exactly. Life has become increasing complex over time, and it will be very interesting to see how well these AltORF's map to that increase in complexity. But don't be surprised if humans and other primates share a great many of them.Mung
May 31, 2015
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It seems obvious to me that the only way to go for the evolutionist is to deny the existence of other layers of code. AltORFs—on a substantial scale—is something that his theory definitely cannot accommodate.
I have to disagree with Box. That the theory is very accomodating has been shown time and again. Some people even think that's a strength of the theory. But we are talking about codes here, and first we have to get them to admit that the codes actually exist, and not just as a metaphor. The Organic Codes: An introduction to semantic biology http://www.codebiology.org/artcodetheory.html Life is not meaningless. Life was imbued with meaning from the beginning.Mung
May 31, 2015
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Box, you will get no disagreement from me on your point! Our materialist friends will however argue that they once were horribly inefficient (but provided benefit over even less efficiency before so selected for) it's just that what we see around us now is the product of evolution: inefficiencies selected out. Which they claim is as predicted. So they can claim the eye is horribly inefficient which proves no designer then when we find it is near perfectly efficient in the way it is structured for its function, they can claim evolution has done an excellent job taking something efficient and selecting it to be inefficient. Heads they win tails you lose.Dr JDD
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD #32: (...) which again makes you wonder how such simple organisms could exist without efficient degradation components such as a proteosome or similar.
For such components to be "efficient", I would like to add, they must be incredibly fine-tuned. IOW exactly the incredible mind-boggling fine-tuning we see in 'modern' cells.Box
May 31, 2015
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Hi Silver, Indeed which is why pseudogenes were much loved by materialists. Further, any odd translatable regions of DNA whose functions are unknown are usually labelled as "material for evolution to build from" as in our current understanding we cannot otherwise assign function. Yet time and time again we now are observing function. Take pseudogenes for example: many now are showing functionality. And not in the sense they are translated, but rather as regulatory RNAs that work via complementary sequences (thus just look like pseudogenes). I have never bought the ability of a cell to possess such scratchpads if you like, and as you say, just magically replace the old one or just add to the functional genome only when they are useful. Just study neurobiology and you will see what happens when you don't have a tight control on what types of proteins are translated or not. Aggregation is a serious problem to a cell's viability and functionality which again makes you wonder how such simple organisms could exist without efficient degradation components such as a proteosome or similar.Dr JDD
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD
For example, >90% of people I work with are PhD-level molecular and cellular biologists, and I have not yet met one who, when I have spoken of these things to them, is aware such layers of complexity exist.
ID looks at the bigger picture which makes it easier to see the many anomalies and conflicts in the unguided 'model' (if there is such a thing). I think the biologists are looking only at the micro-level, lost in the details (can't see the forest for the trees). You advised wd400 to 'take his head out of the materialist paradigm' and that basically says it. There's a simplistic, naive attempt to explain DNA mutations through gene-copying, with a redundant version acting like a non-functioning scratch-pad and the original, functional version remaining conserved until or unless the scratch-pad randomizations come up with something good. So, THE CAT WAS NOT FAT somehow (magically) remains impervious to mutational change and is (magically) conserved but the duplicate goes on mutating for a few million years until you come up with HAT ACT SAW TON TEF Then that fits right in place as a beneficial modification and it switches places with the original. :-)Silver Asiatic
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD @28, I'm sitting front row on this one. BTW I'm wondering how much AltORFs we humans share with chimpanzee/bonobo.Box
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD Very interesting article. Thank you. Here's a relatively recent paper that might serve as illustration for some of the ongoing discussions: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-566910Dionisio
May 31, 2015
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Box @24: Wait until you read part 2. I was literally blown away when I read about a code within a code that aligns to nothing else in the genome and actually functions as a protein that interacts with (and likely has functionality with) the main protein encoded by the traditional ORF. I honestly cannot conceive the likelihood of such processes arising through naturalistic unguided means nor understand how this can even be modelled to understand the probabilistic likelihood.Dr JDD
May 31, 2015
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wd400 stated this
"Though, this other quote doesn’t give me much hope any of these comments are particularly attached to reality…"
in regards to this comment by Querius:
"I see what you mean—there’s really no compelling evidence. It’s simply an unproven assumption based on a faulty paradigm, circular logic, and ignorance."
Which Querius stated in regards to this observation,,
"So basically, for these Darwinists (critics of ENCODE), functionality did not determine if a sequence is actually functional, only ‘conservation of sequence’ determined what was functional. In other words, only if Darwinian evolution, (universal common descent), was assumed as true at the outset will Darwinists accept that a given sequence of ‘junk’ DNA may be functional! That is called ‘assuming your conclusion into your premise’ and is absolutely horrible science!"
That is a perfectly valid observation. And is completely 'attached to reality'. Darwinists always assume that Darwinian evolution is true at the outset of their investigation and never allow their theory to be fundamentally questioned or challenged. This dogmatic tendency of Darwinists to protect their theory from serious scrutiny is especially obvious in the ENCODE/Graur debacle.
Biological Information – (The Dan Graur incident) Criticizing ENCODE 12-13-2014 by Paul Giem – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhlFJO1WqVk
In this instance of finding widespread functionality for 'junk' DNA, the theory of universal common descent was used to determine whether the facts of widespread functionality, which ENCODE gathered by direct empirical observation, were correct.
Scientists go deeper into DNA (Video report) (Junk No More) - Sept. 2012 http://bcove.me/26vjjl5a Quote from preceding video: “It's just been an incredible surprise for me. You say, ‘I bet it's going to be complicated', and then you are faced with it and you are like 'My God, that is mind blowing.'” Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE 2012 ENCODE: Encyclopedia Of DNA Elements - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3V2thsJ1Wc Quote from preceding video: "It's very hard to get over the density of information (in the genome),,, The data says its like a jungle of stuff out there. There are things we thought we understood and yet it is much, much, more complex. And then (there are) places of the genome we thought were completely silent and (yet) they're (now found to be) teeming with life, teeming with things going on. We still really don't understand that." Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE
The empirical facts about widespread functionality were not used to determine whether the theory of universal common descent was correct. What should be needless to say, theory, instead of experiment, dictating what facts are allowed to be considered is completely backwards as to how science is suppose to operate!
The Scientific Method - Richard Feynman - video Quote: 'If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwY
Of related humorous note, Dr Wells has developed a overarching 'assuming your conclusion' template for successfully writing a neo-Darwinian paper that never questions the assumption of neo-Darwinism:
Darwinian 'science' in a nutshell: Jonathan Wells on pop science boilerplate - April 20, 2015 Excerpt: Based on my reading of thousands of Peer-Reviewed Articles in the professional literature, I’ve distilled (the) template for writing scientific articles that deal with evolution: 1. (Presuppose that) Darwinian evolution is a fact. 2. We used [technique(s)] to study [feature(s)] in [name of species], and we unexpectedly found [results inconsistent with Darwinian evolution]. 3. We propose [clever speculations], which might explain why the results appear to conflict with evolutionary theory. 4. We conclude that Darwinian evolution is a fact. https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/jon-wells-on-pop-science-boilerplate/
bornagain77
May 31, 2015
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BA77 #25, Very good choice of illustration for Popperian's style :)Box
May 31, 2015
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Popperian, Dr JDD asks, 'Who are you referring to?' I'm asking "Exactly WHAT are you referring to?" You make such broad, disconnected, strokes with your personal opinions that it is like looking at a palette rather than a canvas when one reads your posts. http://www.arttherapyblog.com/uimages/2011/01/art-therapy-career2.jpg As I quoted earlier, ‘Man, that thing is just a mess. It’s like looking into a room full of smoke.’ Berlinskibornagain77
May 31, 2015
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Dr JDD: What if we discovered other layers of code within the same gene? What would be the impact of a mutation on this other code, relative to the foremost code? How much would this then limit the availability of more than one code to co-evolve, realistically? (...) I think broadly speaking this makes unguided evolution a lot harder. The reason being is any evolutionary changes to this region of overlapping ORFs in different frames means that a change has to be tolerated by BOTH proteins simultaneously. Where a mutation may have been neutral/near neutral before for the standard ORF now has to also be likewise (or beneficial) for the AltORF.
It seems obvious to me that the only way to go for the evolutionist is to deny the existence of other layers of code. AltORFs—on a substantial scale—is something that his theory definitely cannot accommodate.Box
May 31, 2015
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Popperian: Who are you referring to? May I suggest something very simple (much like my car analogy was meant to be - illustrate a simple point with a common, simple example). That is, if someone were to observe let's say as Querius suggests, a cooling fan, there are 2 simple theories. One theory is it looks like some distant functional component of a "related" transport machine it derived from and has lost function. Another theory is that it serves an important function in the sports car and that it is not a lost unnecessary feature. Both are simple, testable feature. However if you favour one theory because it promotes your worldview, it stifles scientific progress. It is of no doubt that the attitude and commitment to junk DNA, and may I add the simplistic idea of a gene (as they fit with UCD and unguided evolution nicely) has therefore limited scientific research. so its not about foresight or over complicated theories, it's about being open to different theories regardless of the impact on.your worldview.Dr JDD
May 30, 2015
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wd400, Bornagain77 mentioned it in 3. Here's the link so you won't have to scroll up: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101216142523.htm I was astounded, but I assumed that you wouldn't be.
Though, this other quote doesn’t give me much hope any of these comments are particularly attached to reality…
A person's preconceptions and chosen paradigm largely determines their perceptions and interpretations---as you and others continually demonstrate. I once believed in evolution, so it's easy for me to temporarily adopt that mindset, or find fault with it. But whatever. -QQuerius
May 30, 2015
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Before a theory can be found in error by observations, you need to actually have a concrete theory, such as some percentage of genes actually are involved in expressing features in a particular way, such as directly coding for features. It's not helpful to merely assume all genes have some abstract functionality because that doesn't explain anything. Nor can merely serving some abstract function be criticized in hope of finding errors using empirical tests. Furthermore, we wouldn't start out by assuming some percentage of genes directly code for features, while some other percent modulate expression of those genes. That's because this idea only came about after conjecturing the idea that only some genes are directly responsible, noticing that theory has specific problems, in that it doesn't fully explain those features, conjecturing some other concrete way in the previous theory might be incorrect or incomplete, then testing that theory as well, etc. Nor is it clear how we could start from there, given that theories are not out there for us to mechanically derive from observations in the first place. We start out knowing they are conjectured, and therefore expect them to contain errors to some degree. So you might say theories are proposed, in a concrete way, for the explicit purpose of conflicting with reality. That's how we make progress. Theories are not merely wrong, they are wrong in very specific ways that constrain the way we approach the problem going forward. If you skip that step, where do you start looking? Not to mention it's unclear why you expect us to ignore best practices for solving problems. For example, you don't start out assuming the most complicated, convoluted and virtually impossible to test at the time theory, even if you somehow managed to have thought of it up front. Who actually does that, in practice? Rather, you start out with theories that can be excluded to get quick wins and help constrain future theories. For example, when debugging software, you don't start out by merely assuming the bug exists somewhere in the program. Where would you start looking: everywhere? No, you pick a possible cause for the problem that allows you to exclude the largest amount of the system with the least amount of effort, then try to exclude that as the cause of the problem. At which point you've significantly narrowed down the problem space. If that doesn't work, then you pick another potential cause that excludes the second largest amount of the system, with the second least amount of effort. And you repeat the process until you fix the bug. This is in contrast to simply randomly picking some possible cause, even if it takes two hours to generate a test file that allows you to exercise that part of the system, or requires you to travel to some other state to observe the program in operation. Yet, should we take the objections seen here seriously, that's essentially what you're asking researchers to do. How do you actually expect us to make progress? Then again, perhaps I'm being generous in assuming you actually want to solve problems in the first place.Popperian
May 30, 2015
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What’s particularly astounding to everyone (except wd400) is that the importance of a gene have been shown not to correlate with its genetic age.
I would be surprised if this was true, do have a citation? Though, this other quote doesn't give me much hope any of these comments are particularly attached to reality...
I see what you mean—there’s really no compelling evidence. It’s simply an unproven assumption based on a faulty paradigm, circular logic, and ignorance.
wd400
May 30, 2015
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