Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Guilt by Association

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Nick Matzke and other critics of ID like nothing better than to conflate ID with young-earth creationism (go here for the latest in this vein by Matzke). But as University of Wisconsin science historian Ron Numbers has noted, even though it’s inaccurate to conflate the two, this is “the easiest way to discredit intelligent design” (go here). Matzke, as a loyal Darwinist, is thus simply being true to form.

For the record, just because various non-ID conferences and events are reported here at UD (e.g., creationist, atheist, or theistic evolutionist) does not constitute an endorsement of those events. Nor does the appearance of an ID proponent at such events constitute complicity with the positions of the organizers. I myself have appeared at atheist (World Skeptics Congress), theistic evolutionist (Templeton conferences), and young-earth creationist (local gatherings here in Texas) events. I believe in getting the word out about ID and, frankly, am happy to have the opportunity to address people on the other side of these issues.

ID, per definitionem, is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the product of intelligence. It rests on two pillars: (1) that the activity of intelligent agents is sometimes detectible and (2) that nature may exhibit evidence of intelligent activity. How anyone gets young-earth creationism from this is a mystery.

Comments
Darwin started the strawman attacks when he argued that species are not fixed. Linneaus, who was a Creationist searching for the Created Kind, already noted that the observed "species" were NOT the Created Kind but had "evolved" from them. Thay said what Matzke and his ilk do not realize is that if we apply their standards to the theory of evolution it is a Creationist theory:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.- Charles Darwin "On the Origins of Species" 6th edition, last chapter, last paragraph and last sentence (bold added)
Mewonders if Matzke would have any issues with biology teachers reading that to every biology class. Also it is Matzke and his ilk who can least afford to have ID presented fairly in public schools- even if it is in something other than a science classroom- If ID is presented fairly all their lies will be exposed- but thta doesn't mean they will stop trying to "sell" them. But the sad part about people like Matzke is that if they just stand up and support their claims ID would go away. It is their failure to support their claims, along with our observations and experience that leads people to the design inference. Anthony Flew fought that inference his entire life until the evidence just became too much to ignore.Joseph
October 31, 2009
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Ultimately it is the bigotry against religion, and people of faith, sadly, that drives the popular conflations of ID with YEC. Those opponents of ID, for the most part, do not even take the time to thoroughly educate themselves on what the theory is defined to be, by it's theorists and advocates. Their inability to detect the CLEAR difference between ID and creationism proves this right off the bat. And this in general proves that the opponents of ID are primarily driven by an agenda which simply seeks to undermine the progress of ID and YEC, as opposed to trying to expose them as incorrect, which of course requires an intellectual commitment to proper philosophical demarcation, reasoning, honesty, and the facts. Basically they shew that they are not interested in perusing truth. When they do this however it exposes them for what they are, which is a politically motivated movement. Interesting how their criticisms of ID are actually projections of their own inadequacies. As soon as opponents of ID start the YEC conflations they have already dismissed the authority of their own objections- proving that they are either uninformed (ie ignorant) or disinterested in the truth (ie agenda driven to be intellectually corrupt). It is, as simple as that.Frost122585
October 31, 2009
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Guilt by association... hmmmm. Darwin, Nazis. Darwin, Columbine. Seems like there is a lot of that going around.Anthony09
October 31, 2009
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Here's a little ironic pot, kettle; John Wheeler bascially proposed that the universe is intelligently design by human consciousness - see this article http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C= and here, where his delayed-choice experiment was conducted: http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2007/216/4 ... via quantum retro-collapes, or "delayed choice". So, isn't John Wheeler an IDist and, by the inane definition most ID denialists use, a creationist? I guess that because Wheeler didn't actually use the term "intelligent design", that makes his theory of the intelligent design of the universe "scientific" enough to warrant respectable treatment in mainstream science publications.William J. Murray
October 31, 2009
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uoflcard #7: I have debated many ID denialists (that's what I call them now, since their argument is never based on evidence or logic). Whenever I point out the basic premises of ID theory, they call me a liar and ridicule me for not knowing anything about ID. They always do the same thing: cherry-pick quotes to "prove" that ID proponents believe that ID refers to a god, refer to the Dover decision, then proceed to use motive-mongering, character slander, and simple denials. The reiterate over and over that IDists conduct no science; when I refer them to the research, they simply deny it. If they cherry-pick a quote, I provide a full context that contradicts their characteriztion, they insist that the proponent in question was lying when they produced the quotes I refer to. When I point out that this impeaches their own witness, they go back to ridiculing me. And they do all this while completely admitting - and even being proud of the fact - that they have read absolutely no significant ID materials other than what is available on anti-ID sites. It astounds me that people will adamantly argue against something, ridiculing it and smearing the character and reputations of others, without even bothering to give a significant reading to the material they vilify ... and then insist that their position is the more logical and supportable, and that I - who have actually read the material - don't know waht I'm talking about.William J. Murray
October 31, 2009
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Well, at least he isn't trotting out that tired old "cdesign proponentsists" nonsense again.hummus man
October 31, 2009
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Dembski:
ID, per definitionem, is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the product of intelligence. It rests on two pillars: (1) that the activity of intelligent agents is sometimes detectible and (2) that nature may exhibit evidence of intelligent activity. How anyone gets young-earth creationism from this is a mystery.
From my observation, it is due to one of three options, on a case-by-case basis: 1. They have never heard or honestly considered the two axioms you just laid out. 2. They do not understand the two axioms. 3. They just use the "c word" to discredit ID without the need for silly things like evidence or logic. They themselves know it is not creationism. But the smart, open-minded segment of audience reading the "neutral" wikipedia page on ID (a.k.a. "neo-creationism") doesn't know. The word "creationism" immediately envokes images of a hell-fire-spittin' pastor hollerin' about the exact literal interpretation of Genesis.uoflcard
October 30, 2009
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AussieID - The problem is that they have a lot more resources, and those resources are automatically given more clout. Just think of the number of people who link to Talk.Origins as definitive on any subject. Making a project out of systematically countering such claims has extremely limited usefulness, which might be better spent doing other things.johnnyb
October 30, 2009
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Sorry, but I mistakenly posted this on PAV's thread (I would appreciate if someone could delete it there): I am aware of the fact that ID tries to distance itself from creationism. However, comments like the one below by tragic mishap on the “Darwin was really wrong” thread may harm the case of ID: 5 tragic mishap 10/30/2009 6:39 pm hdx, off topic, but it according to the Genesis account, Adam lived 930 years and had many sons and daughters. There are no dates, even relative dates, associated with the Cain and Able story, so we have no idea when they were born during Adam’s lifetime, how old they were when Cain killed Able, or how long Cain lived apart from his father’s family before he began building the city. When people live that long, a large population could develop quite quickly in terms of generations.osteonectin
October 30, 2009
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Jehu, I wish you would waste more time with him! It just goes to (continually) prove that points, made ever-so-forcefully, can still be wrong, and this tactic employed by the anti-ID crowd should be noted and noted well.AussieID
October 30, 2009
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Matzke will certainly use any underhanded dishonest tactic available, no matter how transparently stupid, to win a debate. I remind the readers of this Nick Matzke classic from a debate I had with him a couple of years ago.
Jehu: We are supposed to believe that in fewer reproductive events than malaria has in one year, mammals evolved from small shrew like animals into humans, bats and whales? So mammals can create mammary glands, fur, wings, flippers, human intelligence, echolocation, and placentas in fewer reproductive events than Malaria has in one year, yet after 100,000 years Malaria cannot adapt to cold weather? Interesting. Matzke: Um — is someone going to point out that the malaria parasite lives in adult mosquitos, but that in cold regions all the mosquitos (and all other flying insects) die when the temperature hits freezing, and that this provides a perfectly obvious explanation for the distribution of malaria which Behe and all his fans somehow, incredibly, shockingly, astoundingly missed?
How stupid is Matzke's argument? Hmmm, let me count the ways. 1. P. falciparum, the parasite that causes Malaria, cannot reproduce below 60ºF. 2. Water freezes at 32ºF. 3. The mosquitoes of the Anopheles genus that carry the Malaria parasite have a habitat that extends into cold climates, including freezing climates and is vastly larger than the warm areas where the Malaria parasite is found. 4. The reason for the distribution of malaria in warm climates is because they can't reproduce below 60ºF, not because mosquitoes freeze. 5. Many flying insects, including mosquitoes, do in fact survive in sub-freezing temperatures. 6. Not a single fact that Matzke spews out seems to be accurate in this particular quote. 7. Matzke fails to even connect his false facts into a logical coherent argument. 8. In spite of his embarrassing ignorance, Matzke's sarcasm and arrogance are uninhibited as he ridicules "Behe's fans" for missing his "perfectly obvious explanation" which is in fact an uninformed brain fart. I have never met anybody that could pack more wrongness, stupidity, and arrogance in a single paragraph than Nick Matzke. The above exchange is why I no long waste anymore time with him.Jehu
October 30, 2009
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I wonder, did Matzke ever publicly disavow his narrative of the evolution of the Bacterial flagellum after it was completely crushed by Genetic Entropy findings? I know it is probably a pointless question to ask seeing as how he is so willingly deceptive in how he purposely conflates ID with YEC without ever really addressing the merits of the empirical evidence that is clearly, and uncontentiously, present for ID.
Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe."
Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNi0YXYadg0 The flagellum has steadfastly resisted all attempts to elucidate its plausible origination by Darwinian processes, much less has anyone ever actually evolved a flagellum from scratch in the laboratory;
Genetic Entropy Refutation of Nick Matzke's TTSS (type III secretion system) to Flagellum Evolutionary Narrative: Excerpt: Comparative genomic analysis show that flagellar genes have been differentially lost in endosymbiotic bacteria of insects. Only proteins involved in protein export within the flagella assembly pathway (type III secretion system and the basal-body) have been kept... http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/msn153v1
Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Bacterial Flagella - A Paradigm for Design - Scott Minnich - video http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/92
Genetic analysis of coordinate flagellar and type III - Scott Minnich and Stephen Meyer Molecular machines display a key signature or hallmark of design, namely, irreducible complexity. In all irreducibly complex systems in which the cause of the system is known by experience or observation, intelligent design or engineering played a role the origin of the system.
STILL SPINNING JUST FINE: A RESPONSE TO KEN MILLER - William Dembski Excerpt: "Darwin's theory, without which nothing in biology is supposed to make sense, in fact offers no insight into how the flagellum arose." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2003.02.Miller_Response.htm
Flagellum - Sean D. Pitman, M.D. http://www.detectingdesign.com/flagellum.htmlbornagain77
October 30, 2009
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Apparently Matzke didn't get the memo from his boss: “Most ID proponents do not embrace a Young Earth, Flood Geology, and sudden creation tenets associated with YEC.” - Eugenie C. Scott, Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction (Greenwood Press, 2004) p. 128.kibitzer
October 30, 2009
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But Bill! Edwards v. Aguillard! Conspiracy!tragic mishap
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