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Hatred of Religion By Materialists More Virulent Than Previously Thought Possible

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See update at the end of this post.

In the comment section to the last post Bill Dembski alluded to an NSF staffer who attempted to justify surfing porn at work.  The staffer’s justification:  he was only trying to help provide a living to poor overseas women. Denyse O’Leary suggested that if this loser had really wanted to help poor women overseas he could have made a donation to any of the various religious orders that actually help poor women overseas instead of participating in ensnaring them in sexual slavery. Dembski responded by posing tongue-in-cheek the following question:

Denyse, You raise an interesting question for Richard Dawkins: If we had to choose one or the other, helping “poor overseas women” by (1) frequenting at taxpayer’s expense porn sites that pay these women a cut, the porn sites presumably constituting a purely secular activity or by (2) donating money to Catholic/Protestant charities that care for these women by providing shelter, food, and medical care, these charities constituting a religious activity, which should we prefer? I suspect RD, given his virulent hatred of religion, would opt for (1).

At least Dembski thought the question was tongue-in-cheek. Who could have expected the reply from someone who calls himself Seversky? First Seversky defended pornography on the ground that it has been around a long time. Seversky, rape, murder, and theft have been around for a long time too; does that make you in favor of those activities as well?

Then Seversky  takes a swipe at Christians who have caused scandals by falling to sexual sin. I suppose Seversky is pushing the risible notion that these handful of failures are somehow representative of the hundreds of millions of Christians who strive daily to live lives marked by adherence to the Golden Rule.

But Seversky’s defense of porn and his attempt to smear millions both pale in comparison to this gob-smacking passage: “I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization [sic] as part of their program.”

 There you have it. Our opponents count among their number a man who would rather see a young woman live in sexual slavery if that’s what it takes to insulate her from the influence of Christians who would try to help her. After I picked myself up from the floor, my first inclination was to delete the comment and ban this moral monster from the site. Then, I thought better of it. Instead, of deleting the comment, I will put it out there for everyone in the world to see. And I say this to our opponents who appear at this site: How do you answer Dembski’s question? Do you agree with Seversky? If not, will you remain silent or will you come on here and distance yourself from the views he expressed?

Update:  As I write this 27 comments have been made.  As I expected, the materialists have stood by their man Seversky, mainly by advancing patently absurd interpretations of his comments.  And they’ve even attacked me, also as expected.  Pathetic.  Again, I was tempted to delete their comments, but I will not.  Instead, I will leave their moral squalor on display for all to see.

41 comments now and still not one materialist has condemned Seversky’s views.  Astounding.

Comments
Let us refocus. Seversky was presented with two choices of how best to help poor women: #1 View pornography (presented by the NSF as a ludicrous excuse for their slacking off - one that would never be accepted in any workplace) #2 Donate to a Christian charity (presented by Ms. O'Leary as an alternative to #1 that has been proven to actually help poor women). The first part of Seversky's response was to expound on the naturalness and ubiquity of pornography. At best, this is a non-sequitur; at worst it implies Seversky supports the ridiculous excuse of the NSF. The second part of Seversky's response was to express his/her preference not to give to a Christian charity because Christian charities proselytize. At best, this is displays Seversky's eager acceptance of anti-religious stereotypes in that it implies that all Christian-based charities proselytize; at worst it implies that Seversky believes pornographic exploitation is more beneficial to women than charity and proselytism. Did Seversky ever condemn the NSF for its inappropriate use of tax dollars and research time? If not, how much pornography viewing on my part would constitute enough work to get ID accepted as good science by the NSF?angryoldfatman
October 5, 2009
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Quaggy
The key words here being “in effect”, indicating that you are not reiterating Seversky’s actual answer, but imposing one on him. For shame.
No, I don't think I am. First off, I reject the notion that the question as posed is a false dichomotmy. It isn't because Dembski wasn't implying that these two options represent all available options. He was making the larger point that if choosing between just these two options (and thus ignoring all other options), Dawkins (by virtue of both his atheism and his anti-Christian bias) would likely reject supporting a Catholic charity and opt for "help" by porn. Seversky's answer rejects supporting the Catholic charity, therefore by elimination he/she opts for the other alternative presented in this particular question.DonaldM
October 5, 2009
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Sorry about that. Not sure what happened. Donald M
I don’t think Seversky’s position is misrepresented at all. All he/she did was introduce an additional condition not present in the original post and responded to that.
The question, as originally posed, presented a false dichotomy and, as I see it, Seversky answered the question as if it was a real life choice. That is to say, he would prefer to support a secular charity. That he chose an answer not implied with the question is more indicative of a poorly constructed question.
Be that as it may, it changes nothing with respect to the implication of the argument, for Seversky is in effect saying that given the choice between “helping” women by using porn, or helping by funding a religious organization that may also engage in some sort of proselytization, he would, apparently prefer the former, since he finds proselytization a bad thing.
The key words here being "in effect", indicating that you are not reiterating Seversky's actual answer, but imposing one on him. For shame.quaggy
October 5, 2009
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DonaldMquaggy
October 5, 2009
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In case anyone's wondering about the source of my quote from Bradley Monton in #60, here it is: http://bradleymonton.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/reconciling-actions-with-belief/vjtorley
October 5, 2009
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In an earlier post (#42), I remarked upon an apparent inconsistency in Seversky's thinking: he seems to believe that it is futile to combat pornography, which he views as an ineradicable feature of human societies, and yet at the same time he labors mightily to discredit religion, which is even more ingrained in the human psyche than pornography is. If he were consistent, he would either attack both religion and pornography (I'm assuming here that Seversky does not approve of pornography) or leave them both alone. In this post, I'd like to draw attention to Seversky's professed distaste for charities which include religious proselytism as part of their program. (Note: in fairness to Seversky, apparently "proselytization" is a bona fide word in English. Like Barry, I was extremely doubtful when I first saw the word, but then I looked it up on the Internet and found that Merriam-Webster listed it. I have to say I still prefer "proselytism," and I should add that Wikipedia redirects readers who type in "proselytization" to its article on proselytism, although Seversky could justifiably urge that "proselytization" is a more precise word, as it refers exclusively to the act or process of proselytizing, whereas proselytism can also mean the state of being a proselyte.) First of all, I would like to say that I find it deeply ironic that Seversky characterizes religious charities as engaging in proselytism: that is about the last thing that they would think of doing, these days. Indeed, if I wanted to make a list of charities that focused entirely on deeds, not words, then the Salvation Army, the St. Vincent de Paul Society and the Brotherhood of St. Laurence would be up there at the top. The avowedly secular International Planned Parenthood Federation would be somewhere near the bottom. If pushing abortifacients on poor people, lecturing them on the evils of "overpopulation" and telling them how many children they should have isn't a form of proselytism, I don't know what is. In fact, I'd go so far as to call it bullying. It's also infanticide. I believe in calling a spade a spade. But let's assume for argument's sake that Seversky's portrait of religious charities is an accurate one - as it might have been, 40 or 50 years ago. Suppose that they do proselytize. My question is: what's wrong with that? I can hear splutters of outrage from the secular humanists, but it is one of their own number who has written the best defense of proselytism that I have read in a long time. I'd like to quote from the blog of the atheist philosopher, Bradley Monton:
[I]f Christians think that some people are saved and some are not, and there is something really worthwhile in being saved, and those who aren’t saved are really missing out, then why aren’t they spending more energy encouraging people to be saved? (One standard account is that the saved people go to heaven, while the unsaved don’t, but I recognize that different Christians differ on these details.) Yes, there are people who devote their lives, or at least significant portions of their lives, to missionary work and evangelism, and I admire them for following their convictions. It’s the Christians who don’t do this that I have trouble understanding. I know people who profess to be Christian and yet who live their lives pretty much like atheists do, except for the occasional trip to church, or prayer over dinner. For these people, their behavior is deeply at odds with their professed beliefs, and it makes me wonder if they really believe what they say they believe.
There you have it: an atheist who admires and respects proselytizers. Now there is a fair-minded man. I might add as a personal observation that in my experience, the proportion of atheists who proselytize is higher than the proportion of Christians who do, although there are, of course, plenty of atheists and Christians who don't.vjtorley
October 5, 2009
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Quaggy
Since so many commenters disagree with your representation of Seversky’s comments, I would find it useful for you to make the case that someone stating a preference for secular charities is equivalent to them wishing to keep women in sexual slavery. Now would be a good time to exerise those lawyering skills.
I can't answer for Barry, but will give you my own response. I don't think Seversky's position is misrepresented at all. All he/she did was introduce an additional condition not present in the original post and responded to that. Be that as it may, it changes nothing with respect to the implication of the argument, for Seversky is in effect saying that given the choice between "helping" women by using porn, or helping by funding a religious organization that may also engage in some sort of proselytization, he would, apparently prefer the former, since he finds proselytization a bad thing. That does seem to be the upshot if his comment (reproduced here)
As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization as part of their program.
The original choice was a)use porn or b)give to a Catholic (and thus by Seversky's lights, a proselytizing) agency, not between b and a secular (and presumably non-proselytizing)agency. So, I think it is a very fair reading of Seversky's comment that he would reject the Catholic charity in the original choice, and thus one can conclude he'd prefer "help" by using porn, seeing that as less bad than proselytizing, since that is the only other option on the table in the original post to which he/she responded.DonaldM
October 5, 2009
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Barry's post represents the nadir of discourse on this blog, IMHO.Dave Wisker
October 5, 2009
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I'm curious, BTW: What exactly is the problem with proselytizing? If someone just doesn't like it, then fine, that's their preference. But does anyone feel that it's actually wrong, or does it depend on the message?ScottAndrews
October 5, 2009
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While sidestepping the question of what Seversky meant, I'll say this: Anyone who discounts the seriousness of pornography clearly has never seen it pop up on their computer, and doesn't understand the effect it can have on people. One cannot take pleasure in such gross degradation of a woman (or anyone else) while still viewing her as fully human. (Some are sick enough to think that attractive women are "fortunate" to have such an option, and aren't being exploited.) And then we act surprised and shocked when men grab women and girls off the street, disregarding the interests of their victims as they fulfill their own desires. I'm not saying that one follow the other every time. But if society accepts pornography it should also accept rape, abduction, and the consequence of murder. Because pornography exploits fellow humans for pleasure, and the rest is certain to follow.ScottAndrews
October 5, 2009
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this is not a surprise. It like darwinists can see no wrong in darwin, or his theory. They will go to any lengths to excuse the racism and eugenics that are implicit in evolution, and have been practiced since the theory was first posited. this is why atheists side up with radical islam, and they see nothing wrong with it, they are too busy condeming christianity, which they hate with a passion.tsmith
October 5, 2009
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Barry, I believe I would meet your criteria as a "materialist" (I use methodological naturalism), and I second quaggy's comments: I deplore any statement that "...would rather see a young woman live in sexual slavery if that’s what it takes to insulate her from the influence of Christians who would try to help her." and I eagerly await your justification for this outrageous claim.DNA_Jock
October 5, 2009
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Barry:
41 comments now and still not one materialist has condemned Seversky’s views. Astounding.
Again, not a materialist, but allow me to respond. No one has done so because everyone finds Seversky's comments innocuous and your version of his comments a gross misinterpretation. So, fine, I'll play your game. I specifically condemn the idea you have presented as your interpretation of what Seversky said, while I believe that you have completely misrepresented what he said. I would also note that I have directly asked you a question twice and you have yet to answer it. So, let me try again. Since so many commenters disagree with your representation of Seversky's comments, I would find it useful for you to make the case that someone stating a preference for secular charities is equivalent to them wishing to keep women in sexual slavery. Now would be a good time to exerise those lawyering skills.quaggy
October 5, 2009
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Non sequitur, Mark. I didn't make the inflammatory post to begin with, so don't try and turn this on me. I condone neither rape nor murder, which is more than I can say for evolutionists.Barb
October 5, 2009
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#50 "I don’t see anyplace where he suggested that sexual slavery should be done away with. " I don't see any place where you suggest rape and murder should be done away with. Are you therefore condoning both?Mark Frank
October 5, 2009
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Jordan: "Is that how it works? Guilty until proven innocent? If I don’t explicitly tell you that I’m not a fan of earthquakes, then I must be an earthquake supporter?" Silence is acceptance. The fact is, not everyone involved in the porn business is there willingly and for Seversky to say "Well, it's never been done away with" is a copout. The entire issue revolves around someone using my (and your) tax dollars to support a porn habit. This is wrong, and everyone knows it. "And please don’t try to tone down your original accusation, either. You didn’t just accuse him of supporting pornography. You accused him of supporting “sexual slavery.” I'm not toning anything down. Neither is Seversky, from what I can see. I don't see anyplace where he suggested that sexual slavery should be done away with. I compare it to Sam Harris' revelation that given the opportunity to eradicate either rape or religion, he'd choose religion.Barb
October 5, 2009
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Well, Hugh Hefner's daughter is just retiring after about 40 years of running her father's empire for him and one of the things she did was to open up a hardcore division.djmullen
October 5, 2009
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Hmmm how meny of those Pro_Porno dudes have their daughters, sisters and wives in the business?Shazard
October 5, 2009
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#46 Absolutely. Context is all. An image which seems offensive on the internet might inoffensive in a medical text book and laudable in an art gallery.Mark Frank
October 4, 2009
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Any idea what sort of porn we are talking about here ? I mean, is Playboy a hanging offence ?Graham1
October 4, 2009
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Pornography is just intimacy in a cheap tuxedo.fbeckwith
October 4, 2009
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#44 I thought you had been banned! Remember to acknowledge the ID supporters (Joseph and to some extent Vjtorley) among your defenders.Mark Frank
October 4, 2009
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Just a brief note to thank those contributors such as Monastyrski, BillB, Learned Hand, Mark Frank, Jordan and Nakashima who have come to my defense. I have not been in a position to write anything longer today but, if permitted, I will post a detailed response tomorrow.Seversky
October 4, 2009
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StephenB,
Seversky’s second point is that pornography is a “by-produce of sexuality,” meaning that it is quite natural and to be expected. That is yet another defense.
Right. I meant to mention the above point in my explanation to LH as to how Seversky was implying that pornography was a normal outcome of humanity "whether we like it or not", which could have the follow-up line "so we just better get used to it."Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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I believe in the principle of charitable interpretation, so I don't wish to accuse Seversky of upholding morally odious views when he hasn't explicitly advocated them. In any case, he's a grown man, and can speak for himself. Instead, I'd like to turn his own comments around on him. I'm going to substitute "religion" for "pornography," and illustrate how a secular humanist could equally well argue that it is futile to combat religion, and that when compared to pornography, religion is relatively harmless. Here goes. "Whether we like it or not, religious belief seems to have been a by-product of human psychology at least since recorded history began. Societies have, at various times, indulged it or tried to suppress it. Neither approach stopped it. "Nor has affiliation with a professional scientific organization been as successful at immunizing members against religious belief as adherents of secular humanism would like to believe. The scandal of the psychological abuse suffered by the children of a few militant "scientific atheists," who were indoctrinated from an early age against any form of religious belief has already been alluded to. In some cases the mental trauma these children endured from being told they lived in a bleak, pitiless universe, obeying blind mechanical laws, even resulted in their converting to religion, in an attempt to find meaning in their lives. And there is surely no need to remind onlookers of the cases of other prominent secular humanists who have fallen below the standards of religious non-affiliation that they preached to others, by getting married in a church, allowing their own children to go to church, and even having church funerals when they died. "As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins, but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include the corruption of public morals and the objectification of women as part of their program, as pornography does." Seversky spends considerable time fighting the religion meme, but believes that it is futile to combat pornography. I'd like to know why.vjtorley
October 4, 2009
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Nakashima, If you're waiting on Diffaxial's comment, you will be waiting a long time.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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Jordan, You have to take what Seversky said as a whole. And I know from other discussions that he is a moral relativist. Thus his defense of pornography can be seen in previous comments. I've already explained this about 3 or 4 times. To continue to do so will just be redundant.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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Barb, Is that how it works? Guilty until proven innocent? If I don't explicitly tell you that I'm not a fan of earthquakes, then I must be an earthquake supporter? And please don't try to tone down your original accusation, either. You didn't just accuse him of supporting pornography. You accused him of supporting "sexual slavery."Jordan
October 4, 2009
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Seversky never said that he opposed pornography, either.Barb
October 4, 2009
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Barb, Disease, earthquakes, death, etc. are all "natural parts of the human condition" as well. Does this observation imply approval? The fact that something is the case doesn't mean it ought to be the case, whether or not it is "natural," and whether or not you believe in evolution.Jordan
October 4, 2009
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