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Hitchhiker’s Guide author’s “puddle” argument against fine-tuning — and a response

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At Stand to Reason, Tim Barnett reminds us of an argument against fine-tuning of the universe Douglas Adams (1952–2001) offers in one of the Hitchhiker books (he Salmon of Doubt: Hitchhiking the Galaxy One Last Time):

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in—an interesting hole I find myself in—fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

Barnett responds:

In the puddle analogy, the puddle—Doug—can exist in any hole. That’s how puddles work. The shape of the hole is irrelevant to the existence of the puddle. If you change the shape of the hole, the shape of the puddle changes, but you always get a puddle.

The problem is, life doesn’t work like that. Life cannot exist in any universe. The evidence from fine-tuning shows that a life-permitting universe is extremely rare. If you change certain conditions of the universe, you cannot get life anywhere in the universe. For instance, slightly increase the mass of the electron or the up quark, and get a universe with nothing but neutrons. No stars. No planets. No chemistry. No life.

Tim Barnett, “Why the Puddle Analogy Fails against Fine-Tuning” at Stand to Reason (April 22, 2021)

It’s a good argument. But in reality, any argument against fine-tuning will be accepted, whether it makes sense or not. It is only the defenders of a rational universe who need to make sense. And that’s not for the other guy; it’s for you.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
The greatest mystery of all is existence!!jerry
May 6, 2021
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StephenB
To say that a being is self-existent is to say that it contains the principle of existence within itself and that every other form of existence draws from and depends on it. One is the active source of existence and the other is the passive recipient. Obviously, there cannot be two self-evident beings or two ultimate sources of existence.
I had not heard the term "self-existent" until you mentioned so I looked it up. This is what I found.
Mirriam-Webster: existing of or by oneself or itself independently of any other being or cause : not caused to exist by someone or something else Collins: existing independently of any other being or cause The Free Dictionary: Inherent existence; existence possessed by virtue of a being's own nature, and independent of any other being or cause; - an attribute peculiar to God.
All of these definitions seem to have something in common, a reference to other beings and causes. A self-existent being's existence is independent of external causes. It says nothing about its existence precluding the existence of other self-existent beings. Again, I don't see any reason why the soul can not be a self-existent being.paige
May 6, 2021
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Don’t feed the troll!jerry
May 6, 2021
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KF said:
KM, again, logic of being. God, is a serious candidate necessary being. No being composed of an assembly of independently existing parts [which would be causally antecedent] can be necessary.
Rooted in linear-time ERT, this does not apply to certain idealism and non-linear time worldviews. IOW, there are possible worlds this argument does not apply to. So, under the "eternal," or "timeless" idealism reality theory, "universal mind" is the "oneness" that is everything. The principle of identity is that which distinguishes between things found in and are comprised of mind. The "oneness" does not violate or prohibit individual identification any more than the house, a river, a tree and a dog in the same painting cannot be successfully identified as different things, even though they are all made of paint and exist on the same canvas. Now we get to the claim that a being comprised of parts is necessarily contingent and cannot be necessary or self-existent. The idea of something being "contingent" is rooted in an external (of mind) world, linear-time causality perspective. IOW, my keyboard's existence is contingent; it did not exist in the past, and was caused to "come into existence" at a certain point in time by those causes. Unfortunately for your worldview, time-linear causality has been disproved via results of the quantum eraser and delayed-choice experiments, among others. What we experience as "reality" is information being selected and processed into experience by state-of-observer consciousness. The only thing that is in a sense "contingent" in this scenario is personal experience; it is contingent on which information is selected, and how it is processed, by the observer. However, that personal experience eternally exists as potential, the existence of the experience is not contingent; the having of the experience by an observer is what is contingent. The observer is not the information, the processing, or the experience; it is not any particular "state;" it is that which has the experience. The observer is not a body made of parts; it is an ineffable loci of willful consciousness. Under this model, all of what can possibly exist, exists eternally as information in the form of potential. It necessarily exists. That means the experience of my typing out this response, my location here doing this in my present state, is a potentiality that is eternal. It is not "created" or "contingent" on anything. Everything eternally exists, in fact must exist, because nothing that is possible can escape its existence in potential, which is the root "reality" of how all things fundamentally exist. "Actualized" potential doesn't remove the potential or change it; it is merely being translated into observational experience by consciousness. Under this non-time-linear, eternal IRT, every possible thing is necessary and cannot be "erased" or "created." There are no contingent beings or things. The only place where the idea of "contingency" applies is free will; what one experiences is contingent on their free will choices, and free will = observational direction, or willful observation. IOW, my experience as the observing consciousness is contingent on my free will. IOW, I am the ongoing director of my experience as I move my attention through potential eternally-available experiences, "actualizing" them by my observation. The problem with your analysis of "all possible worlds," KF, is that you're not actually thinking about "all possible worlds." You're only thinking about all possible ERT worlds. Your logical objections to other ERT worlds do not apply to IRT "worlds."William J Murray
May 6, 2021
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Sandy, the idea that there are intellectual virtues and duties seems to be at steep discount, a measure of where we are. Note what has happened repeatedly over past weeks when I pointed out that even objectors to first duties of reason are forced to appeal to same to try to get rhetorical traction for their claims. That is of course inconsistent on their part, but also shows that the first duties are inescapable, so true and self evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, to fairness and justice etc. Willful disregard to such duties leads to guilty ignorance that puts false for true, darkness for light [and calls such darkness enlightenment!], evil for good, folly for wisdom and more, leading to marches of suicidal folly. Yes, some kinds of ignorance -- based on willful negligence towards or outright refusal to do duty etc -- are anything but innocent. KFkairosfocus
May 6, 2021
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F/N: Above, I pointed out that the ethical theistic understanding is that God is the inherently good, utterly wise, creator, a necessary and maximally great being. Each of these facets draws on and contributes to the others, i.e. each major attribute of God, rightly understood, is a microcosm of his being. God's goodness and wisdom for example interact with his power, knowledge and skill as creator, and his necessary being implies that he is source of reality, creator of all worlds, holding all worlds together through his power and wisdom. Think here of how and why a properly cut diamond flashes with fire. In particular, maximal greatness can be seen as being all good to the limit where all of his attributes are perfectly balanced. That is profoundly . . . not merely accidentally . . . coherent and the microcosm principle says much the same. And much more . . . KFkairosfocus
May 6, 2021
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KM, again, logic of being. God, is a serious candidate necessary being. No being composed of an assembly of independently existing parts [which would be causally antecedent] can be necessary. Composite entities, from cars to our own bodies and much more, are inherently contingent, caused and dependent. I could elaborate on possible worlds, what is impossible of being [e.g. a square circle], possible beings and of these contingent beings and necessary beings but I would doubtless be pounced on rhetorically, in yet another needless tangent . . . as it is clear that there is not a recognition of a need to deal with root issues to properly address. As at now, for cause on evidence above I am not confident that there is a willingness to do that. KF PS: Logic of Being. . . ontology . . . is philosophy, not theology, and of theology, apologetics on Christian evidences, Bible exegesis and systematics are only a few components. No, you do not get to play rhetorical games by twisting meanings of words to suggest that we are inconsistent. There is an adequate explanation laid out above, which you chose to studiously ignore and now rhetorically twist.kairosfocus
May 6, 2021
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VL, the oneness and not any thing itself are in mutual contradiction, and of course breach of identity. Identity is the literal root of logic. KFkairosfocus
May 6, 2021
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Then how can they be “morally” guilty of incorrect beliefs and actions?
They are in this state of mind because they previously made immoral decissions that locked them in this pattern.Sandy
May 5, 2021
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WJM: 1. ---"I’d like to see you make the logical argument that there cannot be two self-existent beings." To say that a being is self-existent is to say that it contains the principle of existence within itself and that every other form of existence draws from and depends on it. One is the active source of existence and the other is the passive recipient. Obviously, there cannot be two self-evident beings or two ultimate sources of existence.StephenB
May 5, 2021
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Why don’t you ask some questions,
I did. Never answered. He admits to an external world and has discussed it several times. All he has demonstrated is that humans have minds with which they perceive the external world. Amazing. So why the charade? He's just wasting a lot of time and pixels.jerry
May 5, 2021
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Sandy: An atheist can’t find the truth even if thinks about it thousands of years. Then how can they be "morally" guilty of incorrect beliefs and actions? Would you whip a dog because he could never think and act like a human?Karen McMannus
May 5, 2021
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Jerry: God is supposed to have no parts Who says? Aquinas? Your whole ontology might just be FOS. Get some humility. Oh, wait. We're not suppose to discuss apologetics on this thread. Somebody start a new one.Karen McMannus
May 5, 2021
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Jerry: You should know that William J Murray is a troll. He espouses that there is no physical world, no eating, drinking or breathing. I must jump in here. Um no, he's never said anything of the sort. Why don't you ask some questions, because you obviously don't understand what he's saying (which is very close to my own view.) (P.S. I'm not "attacking" you. I generally like your posts and your tone. But, come on, you've got a blank spot here. Get some humility.)Karen McMannus
May 5, 2021
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He is an advocate for a type of idealism somewhat like that of George Berkeley, at least as a start, and seems to find some value in trying to discuss his ideas here.
This is nonsense. He has been around for 14 years or more. He constantly refers to the outside world and claims to live in Texas. He is also on record as not telling the truth. Direct quotes
does the fact that I do not directly experience a moral duty to truthfulness or right reason disprove KF’s premise of a directly experienced, objective moral reality?
My choices never proceed from a perspective of moral obligation or pursuit of truth; my choices entirely serve my personal enjoyment – not pleasure per se, but a broad and deep version of “enjoyment” that includes all sorts of varied experiences.
Anything or any-thing. The comment still stands. Call it what you want. It produced the fine tuning. By the way the personalization of God is not necessarily a Christian thing since God is supposed to have no parts so personality would not be appropriate for Him. But we have to discuss Him and talk about Him so we invariably use a masculine expression.jerry
May 5, 2021
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First, at 320, Jerry misquoted me when he said, "Somehow this oneness which is not anything caused the fine tuning of the universe." I had written any-thing, not anything, to emphasize that the Oneness of which I speak (a speculative alternative to a personal God) is beyond categorization and beyond having attributes such as we ascribe to a person. Some branches of Hinduism, Taoism, and the philosophy of Spinoza discuss this difference. Also, to StephenB: I disagree with Jerry about WJM. I don't think of WJM as a troll. He is an advocate for a type of idealism somewhat like that of George Berkeley, at least as a start, and seems to find some value in trying to discuss his ideas here.Viola Lee
May 5, 2021
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Jerry StevenB, You should know that William J Murray is a troll.
Is not a troll. It's more critical. He talked openly about his "transcedental experiences" ...not with God . We can imagine who was.Sandy
May 5, 2021
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StevenB, You should know that William J Murray is a troll. He espouses that there is no physical world, no eating, drinking or breathing. No keyboard or screen to communicate with others in this world. No electric bills, no people with bodies. Just mental images. He doesn’t believe any of this but puts on a show to irk others for his enjoyment. The worse thing you can do is respond to his comments as if they are real. So take all comments by him in this vein. There are others here who help him carry out this charade.jerry
May 5, 2021
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StephenB
Because they are creatures.
By what criteria is a soul a creature?
They depend on a self-existent being for their coming into being and for their continued existence.
How exactly have you drawn this conclusion? I am not aware of any evidence that suggests that the soul cannot be an uncaused entity.
Only a self-existent being can exist without a prior cause and there can only be one self-existent being.
Again, you are making assertions with no evidence to support it. Maybe if you can explain why there can only be one self-existing being I might better understand your rationale.paige
May 5, 2021
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314: SB, 1. I'd like to see you make the logical argument that there cannot be two self-existent beings. 2. What did God create the universe out of? 3. Where did God create the universe? 4. How long did God exist before God created the universe? 5. What are new souls created out of?William J Murray
May 5, 2021
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is the source of all there is without being any-thing itself
Somehow this oneness which is not anything caused the fine tuning of the universe.                                                             Amazing! jerry
May 5, 2021
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It is very clear from the creationist conceptual scheme, that God can only be identified with a CHOSEN personal opinion. He cannot be identified as fact, forced by the evidence of Him, nor identified forced by the logical conclusion of some philosophical trick about the neccessity of being. But you can have all kinds of feelings of certitude in regards to the existence of God. Because feelings are welcome for the subjective category, which is the category God is in. You can reasonably feel as least as sure of God's existence, as you are sure of prime emotions, like love, fear, joy. And personal character, like courage, kindness, charity. And God is ofcourse a person, as God is in the creator category, and creators are persons.mohammadnursyamsu
May 5, 2021
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SB said:
Only a self-existent being can exist without being brought into existence. That is a logical truth, not a statement of faith. I don’t think you can have it both ways here. On the one hand, you suggest that we were unjustly brought into existence without being consulted about it. On the other hand, you suggest that we may have always existed in some state without having been forced into it. The fact remains that you cannot be consulted about anything without first being created without your permission. This is basic logic.
Yes, on the one hand, if Christianity is true, , then I was forced into existence, etc. On the other hand, if Christianity is not true, and I have always existed, I have not been forced into existence. I hold that all beings are eternally existent.
I don’t accept the premise that “ground of being” means what you say it means or that God is the ground of being in that sense.
That's fine. I don't accept your premise of "God." In my view, the Christian "God" is just one of many beings that have established religions/spiritualties (cults) here on Earth and in related astral domains) that serve their own purposes and ends.William J Murray
May 5, 2021
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An atheist can't find the truth even if thinks about it thousands of years. it's for example like a driver software for a printer/camera/etc. if you don't install then PC will never "see " the printer/camera even it's connected. Only God have the "driver" and give to whomever He wants. The height of stupidity is to think you are smarter than God who made your mind. That's why Bible say about atheists that they are crazy.Sandy
May 5, 2021
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This is one thing WJM and I agree about. The Oneness I mentioned in 291 is beyond personhood, and is the source of all there is without being any-thing itself.Viola Lee
May 5, 2021
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---WJM: "You’re making claims of faith; there is no logically necessary reason or evidence that God “created” souls or that God actively “created” anything." No claims about faith. It is a matter of logic. Evidence also plays a role. The physical universe and its inhabitants once didn’t exist. They are contingent; a necessary being had to bring them into existence.". ---“It is irrational to say God, as ground of being, created something in particular; that requires a particular personality, a particular identity, a particular perspective. Such an entity is not God as ground of being; it is a particular possible being whose existence is allowed for by the ground-of-being God (or whatever you want to call it.) These cannot rationally be said to be qualitatively “the same being.” One is infinite potential; the other is one particular actualized entity with individual, particular qualities (say, “goodness” or being “just”) that makes particular choices based on its particular nature.” I don’t accept the premise that “ground of being” means what you say it means or that God is the ground of being in that sense.StephenB
May 5, 2021
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Because they are creatures. They depend on a self-existent being for their coming into being and for their continued existence. Only a self-existent being can exist without a prior cause and there can only be one self-existent being. ---Paige: "I understand that this is what you believe, but what evidence do you have for this." It isn't a statement about what I believe. It is a statement about what must logically be true. Another good example of something that must be logically true is that something or someone had to exist eternally. No evidence for this statement is needed. It simply must be the case. ---"Why can there only be one “self-existing” or uncaused being? Does the existence of one preclude others?" Yes. ---" Is it not possible that souls are also “self-existing” beings, different than God but still uncaused?" No.StephenB
May 5, 2021
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---“WJM: As Paige pointed out: no. We do not have to be “brought into existence” if we have always existed.: Only a self-existent being can exist without being brought into existence. That is a logical truth, not a statement of faith. I don’t think you can have it both ways here. On the one hand, you suggest that we were unjustly brought into existence without being consulted about it. On the other hand, you suggest that we may have always existed in some state without having been forced into it. The fact remains that you cannot be consulted about anything without first being created without your permission. This is basic logic. ---“I cannot be held responsible for things I must choose between when under the threat of eternal torment or existential annihilation.” Once again, I find no consistency here. On the one hand, you say that the threat of hell places you under duress because it instills in you an unreasonable fear of the Christian God. In truth, though, you are so removed from fear of the Christian God that you dare to call Him an evil tyrant and worse. Excessive fear of the Christian God is followed by a fearless and unqualified indictment against the justice of the Christian God. It just doesn’t add up. ---“In fact, the bulk of the experiencers bring back a message of complete non-judgmental love that has nothing whatsoever to do with any religion, creed, or particular spiritual belief. Their lives are transformed by this experience.” In most of these cases, I think it is difficult to separate subjective experience from objective reality. ---“As far as the evidence you’ve outlined that you believe supports the claim of Christian exclusivity; even if we accept all your evidence arguendo, the uniqueness of such evidence doesn’t logically imply existential exclusivity.” “Existential exclusivity” is your gig, not mine. I simply said that Christian apologetics shows that, among all religious leaders, Jesus Christ is, by far, the most credible as a spokesman for God.and that the logic of the universe is best explained by the Christian concept of Logos. This is easy to demonstrate, . --- what if miracles occurred, so what if it is 100% historically accurate, etc? None of that even begins to make the case for existential exclusivity, especially in the face of counterfactual experiences and evidence. “So what” is not a reasonable response to a verifiable miracle. ---“The evidence indicates that there is a multi-dimensional experiential construct (for some people here and involving at least one afterlife realm) that is structurally consistent with Christian beliefs (generally speaking.)” This is a premise worth challenging. The term “multi-dimentional experiential construct” is, in my judgement, a badly formed paradigm because it conflates subjective experience with objective reality. As you have made clear, you are searching for a world view that makes you feel comfortable. For my part, I am searching for the truth about objective reality so that I can direct my life accordingly.StephenB
May 5, 2021
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StephenB
Because they are creatures. They depend on a self-existent being for their coming into being and for their continued existence. Only a self-existent being can exist without a prior cause and there can only be one self-existent being.
I understand that this is what you believe, but what evidence do you have for this. Why can there only be one “self-existing” or uncaused being? Does the existence of one preclude others? Is it not possible that souls are also “self-existing” beings, different than God but still uncaused?paige
May 5, 2021
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Souls are not created. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / subjective / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / objective / fact Both God and the soul, belong in category number 1. You cannot actually create love as some kind of artefact. Although phonies like Cher and Jill Biden do make a good show of trying to create love as some kind of material thing.mohammadnursyamsu
May 5, 2021
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