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How is libertarian free will possible?

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In this post, I’m going to assume that the only freedom worth having is libertarian free will: the free will I possess if there are choices that I have made during my life where I could have chosen differently, under identical circumstances. That is, I believe that libertarian free will is incompatible with determinism. By contrast, indeterminism is compatible with the existence of libertarian freedom, but in no way implies it.

There are some people who think that even if your choices are fully determined by your circumstances, they are still free, if you selected them for a reason and if you are capable of being educated to act for better reasons. People who think like that are known as compatibilists. I’m not one of them; I’m an incompatibilist. Specifically, I’m what an agent-causal incompatibilist: I believe that humans have a kind of agency (an ability to act) that cannot be explained in terms of physical events.

Some time ago, I came across The Cogito Model of human freedom, on The Information Philosopher Web site, by Dr. Roddy Doyle. The Website represents a bold philosophical attempt to reconcile the valid insights underlying both determinism and indeterminism. The authors of the model argue that it accords well with the findings of quantum theory, and guarantees humans libertarian freedom, but at the same time avoids the pitfall of making chance the cause of our actions. Here’s an excerpt:

Our Cogito model of human freedom combines microscopic quantum randomness and unpredictability with macroscopic determinism and predictability, in a temporal sequence.

Why have philosophers been unable for millennia to see that the common sense view of human freedom is correct? Partly because their logic or language preoccupation makes them say that either determinism or indeterminism is true, and the other must be false. Our physical world includes both, although the determinism we have is only an adequate description for large objects. So any intelligible explanation for free will must include both indeterminism and adequate determinism.

At first glance, Dr. Doyle’s Cogito Model appears to harmonize well with the idea of libertarian free will. Doyle makes a point of disavowing determinism, upholding indeterminism, championing Aristotle, admiring Aquinas and upholding libertarian free will. However, it turns out that he’s no Aristotelian, and certainly no Thomist. Indeed, he isn’t even a bona fide incompatibilist. Nevertheless, Doyle’s Cogito Model is a highly instructive one, for it points the way to how a science-friendly, authentically libertarian account of freedom might work.

There are passages on Dr. Doyle’s current Web site (see for instance paragraphs 3 and 4 of his page on Libertarianism) where he appears to suggest that our character and our values determine our actions. This is of course absurd: if I could never act out of character, then I could not be said to have a character. I would be a machine.

Misleadingly, in his Web page on Libertarianism, Dr. Doyle conflates the incoherent view that “an agent’s decisions are not connected in any way with character and other personal properties” (which is surely absurd) with the entirely distinct (and reasonable) view that “one’s actions are not determined by anything prior to a decision, including one’s character and values, and one’s feelings and desires” (emphases mine). Now, I have no problem with the idea that my bodily actions are determined by my will, which is guided by my reason. However, character, values, feelings and desires are not what makes an action free – especially as Doyle makes it quite clear in his Cogito Model that he envisages all these as being ultimately determined by non-rational, physicalistic causes:

Macro Mind is a macroscopic structure so large that quantum effects are negligible. It is the critical apparatus that makes decisions based on our character and values.

Information about our character and values is probably stored in the same noise-susceptible neural circuits of our brain…

The Macro Mind has very likely evolved to add enough redundancy, perhaps even error detection and correction, to reduce the noise to levels required for an adequate determinism.

The Macro Mind corresponds to natural selection by highly determined organisms.

There is a more radical problem with Doyle’s model: he acknowledges the reality of downward causation, but because he is a materialist, he fails to give a proper account of downward causation. He seems to construe it in terms of different levels of organization in the brain: Macro Mind (“a macroscopic structure so large that quantum effects are negligible… the critical apparatus that makes decisions based on our character and values”) and Micro Mind (“a random generator of frequently outlandish and absurd possibilities”) – the latter being susceptible to random quantum fluctuations, from which the former makes a rational selection.

Doyle goes on to say:

Our decisions are then in principle predictable, given knowledge of all our past actions and given the randomly generated possibilities in the instant before decision. However, only we know the contents of our minds, and they exist only within our minds. Thus we can feel fully responsible for our choices, morally and legally.

This passage leads me to conclude that Doyle is a sort of compatibilist, after all. As I’ve said, I’m not.

So how do I envisage freedom? I’d like to go back to a remark by Karl Popper, in his address entitled, Natural Selection and the Emergence of Mind, delivered at Darwin College, Cambridge, November 8, 1977. Let me say at the outset that I disagree with much of what Popper says. However, I think he articulated a profound insight when he said:

A choice process may be a selection process, and the selection may be from some repertoire of random events, without being random in its turn. This seems to me to offer a promising solution to one of our most vexing problems, and one by downward causation.

Let’s get back to the problem of downward causation. How does it take place? The eminent neurophysiologist and Nobel prize winner, Sir John Eccles, openly advocated a “ghost in the machine” model in his book Facing Reality, 1970 (pp. 118-129). He envisaged that the “ghost” operates on neurons that are momentarily poised close to a threshold level of excitability.

But that’s not how I picture it.

My model of libertarian free will

Reasoning and choosing are indeed immaterial processes: they are actions that involve abstract, formal concepts. (By the way, computers don’t perform formal operations; they are simply man-made material devices that are designed to mimic these operations. A computer is no more capable of addition than a cash register, an abacus or a Rube Goldberg machine.)

Reasoning is an immaterial activity. This means that reasoning doesn’t happen anywhere – certainly not in some spooky Cartesian soul hovering 10 centimeters above my head. It has no location. Ditto for choice. However, choices have to be somehow realized on a physical level, otherwise they would have no impact on the world. The soul doesn’t push neurons, as Eccles appears to think; instead, it selects from one of a large number of quantum possibilities thrown up at some micro level of the brain (Doyle’s micro mind). This doesn’t violate quantum randomness, because a selection can be non-random at the macro level, but random at the micro level. The following two rows of digits will serve to illustrate my point.

1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1

The above two rows of digits were created by a random number generator. Now suppose I impose the macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have:

1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0

Each row is still random, but I have imposed a non-random macro-level constraint. That’s how my will works when I make a choice.

For Aristotelian-Thomists, a human being is not two things – a soul and a body – but one being, capable of two radically different kinds of acts – material acts (which other animals are also capable of) and formal, immaterial actions, such as acts of choice and deliberation. In practical situations, immaterial acts of choice are realized as a selection from one of a large number of randomly generated possible pathways.

On a neural level, what probably happens when an agent decides to raise his/her arm is this: the arm goes through a large number of micro-level muscular movements (tiny twitches) which are randomly generated at the quantum level. The agent tries these out over a very short interval of time (a fraction of a second) before selecting the one which feels right – namely, the one which matches the agent’s desire to raise his/her arm. This selection continues during the time interval over which the agent raises his/her arm. The wrong (randomly generated quantum-level) micro-movements are continually filtered out by the agent.

The agent’s selection usually reflect his/her character, values and desires (as Doyle proposes) – but on occasion, it may not. We can and do act out of character, and we sometimes act irrationally. Our free will is not bound to act according to reason, and sometimes we act contrary to it (akrasia, or weakness of will, being a case in point).

So I agree with much of what Doyle has to say, but with this crucial difference: I do not see our minds as having been formed by the process of natural selection. Since thinking is an immaterial activity, any physicalistic account of its origin is impossible in principle.

Comments
Right. So pain can sometimes have no content other than, as it were, itself? It is not “about” anything other than pain? How is it 'about' pain? That's back to making it sound like an object. It is, in this case, an experience. You asked if all consciousness is consciousness 'of' something, and for those who said no, you asked an explanation of being conscious 'of' nothing. I pointed out the difficulty there. Now you're swapping out 'of' for 'about', but that seems like the same problem all over again. Pain in this case is an experience, period. Not an experience 'of' or experience 'about', but a subjective experience, period. We can pull back and conceptualize experience, turn it into an object, but then we're into concepts rather than experience.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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OK, Nullasalus, I am happy that we agree that neither of us are infallible. I hope you also agree that thinking one is correct, is not the same as thinking one is infallible. Clearly both you and I both think we are correct, or we wouldn't keep thinking it! And clearly, as we disagree, at least one of us is mistaken. So let's continue to find out where. Personally, I think we are both being logical, given our premises, but that our premises differ. That's a good point to get to, if we can.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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I think you just made a logical error there Your logical abilities are pretty unimpressive so far. Just let me be absolutely clear: I think I am correct, but I don’t know with 100% confidence that I am correct. Does that help? What would help is you showing where I said that I know with 100% confidence that I am correct. What would be even more splendid is you admitting that I never said that, that you projected that view onto me, and that you withdraw the claim. Or don't. I really don't care. As I said, I can accuse you of believing you are 'infallible' with the same amount of justification you had when you accused me of it - pretty darn close to 'none'.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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Nullasalus:
Experience as it is experienced, rather than experience being conceptualized as an object. If I feel pain, I can conceptualize an object of my pain – I can say the pain is from a pin in my arm. And I can be mistaken (phantom pains) about that object. But the pain itself is not a concept. It’s a sensory datum.
OK. Thanks. I hoped we'd get on to pain. I would agree that we do not "conceptualise" pain - so if that is what you mean by "raw" I understand what you mean.
OK, so you think that conciousness can have no content? It depends on what you mean by ‘content’. See above.
Right. So pain can sometimes have no content other than, as it were, itself? It is not "about" anything other than pain? I'll stop there, because I think it is good to go step by step. Let me know if I am going off track.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Nullasalus:
Alright, I’ll play along: I admit that it’s entirely possible that, say.. my experiences are the result of the manipulations of a cartesian demon, and that what I think is proper reasoning is, as a matter of fact, not.
Cool. But you don't have to posit a cartesian demon - you just need to posit a math error. Or even an unshared premise. I think that's what we have here, actually. I hope we may be able to drill down to it.
Guess what? I still have to go by the criterion I have, and the criterion is still indicating (and it appears I’m not the only one getting this indication) that your position is incoherent and your examples are crappy and flawed.
Sure. And it may be correct.
So go ahead and admit that it’s entirely possible that your position is incoherent and that your arguments are fatally flawed, but that you don’t believe this to be so. Then I can accuse you of believing yourself to be infallible with the same amount of justification you accused me of such. Or better yet, don’t admit to this – and give me ample grounds to accuse you of hypocrisy.
Well, no, I don't admit to it. I don't believe I'm infallible. I just said so. Obviously I believe I'm correct (otherwise I'd change my mind) but that is not the same as saying I'm infallible. I could do a complicated math problem, and when asked whether I think the answer is correct, say "well, yes, to the best of my knowledge and ability, this answer is correct, but I know I am careless at math so it's entirely possible that I dropped a term or lost a minus sign somewhere along the way". I think you just made a logical error there :) But it happens to all of us, so don't worry. Just let me be absolutely clear: I think I am correct, but I don't know with 100% confidence that I am correct. Does that help?Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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So what do you mean by “raw experience”? The reason I ask, of course, is that this seems to me to be a fairly fundamental assumption – that experience can be “raw”. What does “raw” mean in this context? Experience as it is experienced, rather than experience being conceptualized as an object. If I feel pain, I can conceptualize an object of my pain - I can say the pain is from a pin in my arm. And I can be mistaken (phantom pains) about that object. But the pain itself is not a concept. It's a sensory datum. OK, so you think that conciousness can have no content? It depends on what you mean by 'content'. See above.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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Nullasalus:
Does anyone think one could be conscious, yet not conscious OF anything?
Are you asking if all consciousness is consciousness of an object? If so, that doesn’t seem right. Raw experience is exactly that – experience. Not a product of conceptualization.
So what do you mean by "raw experience"? The reason I ask, of course, is that this seems to me to be a fairly fundamental assumption - that experience can be "raw". What does "raw" mean in this context?
If yes, can you explain what consciousness might be if one were conscious of nothing?
But that’s poorly phrased – you ask if there’s consciousness without consciousness OF anything, then ask for an explanation for being conscious OF nothing. You’re treating consciousness as being conscious of something, even when that’s supposed to be what’s being denied.
OK, so you think that conciousness can have no content? I'm just trying to get at the bottom of where we differ here, not trying to prove you wrong.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Does anyone think one could be conscious, yet not conscious OF anything? Are you asking if all consciousness is consciousness of an object? If so, that doesn't seem right. Raw experience is exactly that - experience. Not a product of conceptualization. If yes, can you explain what consciousness might be if one were conscious of nothing? But that's poorly phrased - you ask if there's consciousness without consciousness OF anything, then ask for an explanation for being conscious OF nothing. You're treating consciousness as being conscious of something, even when that's supposed to be what's being denied.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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No, that would be circular reasoning. So if, say.. someone changes their alibi 5 times, that's not even an indication that they're lying? If a person repeatedly tries and fails to explain a concept in a way that makes sense, that's not an indication - not utter certain proof, but an indication - that perhaps their concept doesn't make sense, or that they don't understand it after all? No, I already dealt with this a while back, Nullasalus. You seem to think you have an infallible criterion for distinguishing nonsense from sense. You do not appear to consider the possibility that your criterion may be faulty. That’s why I said that you have locked yourself into a position where you cannot be wrong. No, what I have is a criterion for distinguishing sense nonsense from sense. Sure, my criterion can be faulty - so can anyone's - but so what? My criterion is all I have. I can amend it as situations warrant, but pointing out the mere logical possibility that my criterion is faulty does nothing. It certainly doesn't magically give what I take to be nonsense, credence. Oh, I’m sure they do find that his positions reduce to denials of such. That doesn’t mean that they have performed the reduction correctly. Nor does it mean they haven't. Funny, you tell me to be open to the possibility that I'm wrong, and you take my calling your arguments and examples nonsense to indicate that I think I'm infallible. You see no problem writing off people as not having understood or even read Dennett if they end up disagreeing with him. Pot, kettle, black. um, no. um, ya-huh. And if the litmus test for deciding whether or not I am talking nonsense is whether you think I’m talking nonsense, then as I said, you have locked yourself into a position in which you cannot be wrong. No, I haven't. Man, you can't even get this straight? You're honestly telling me that if I use logic and reason to evaluate your arguments, only to find them wanting and pointing out as much, that I've 'locked myself into a position in which I cannot be wrong'? You're freaking telling me that evaluating your arguments and statements for coherency is a bad way to determine whether or not your arguments and statements are coherent? It is, in fact, possible to make errors in logic – to conclude that a piece of reasoning is fallacious when it is not. Gosh, is it? I mean, are you certain of that? Sounds to me like you're saying that your belief in this statement is infallible. Better be open to the possibility that it's not possible to make errors in logic, right? Wait a minute... Look, this isn't exactly helping your case here. You're coming down on me, accusing me of believing that my logic and reasoning is utterly infallible (I dare you to quote me anywhere making this claim, because it doesn't exist) on the grounds that in the course of evaluating your arguments and examples - examples you yourself excuse by saying they're the result of you 'struggling to communicate novel concepts' - I'm concluding that your examples and arguments are rotten. Alright, I'll play along: I admit that it's entirely possible that, say.. my experiences are the result of the manipulations of a cartesian demon, and that what I think is proper reasoning is, as a matter of fact, not. Guess what? I still have to go by the criterion I have, and the criterion is still indicating (and it appears I'm not the only one getting this indication) that your position is incoherent and your examples are crappy and flawed. So go ahead and admit that it's entirely possible that your position is incoherent and that your arguments are fatally flawed, but that you don't believe this to be so. Then I can accuse you of believing yourself to be infallible with the same amount of justification you accused me of such. Or better yet, don't admit to this - and give me ample grounds to accuse you of hypocrisy.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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So, let's try this step by step, and see whether we can find the error. First of all: Does anyone think one could be conscious, yet not conscious OF anything? If no, do you agree that it makes more sense to talk about consciousness in terms of what we are conscious of rather than intransitively? If yes, can you explain what consciousness might be if one were conscious of nothing? Thanks.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Nullasalus:
Do you appreciate the possibility that A) perhaps in your ‘struggling to convey novel concepts’, you are – in fact – talking nonsense?
Yes, of course.
That B) Perhaps the position you wish to defend ultimately is, in fact, nonsense –
Yes, of course.
and that your struggling to explain it, and producing nonsense in the process, may be indicative of such?
No, that would be circular reasoning.
That C) I could in fact be open to the possibility that your position is not nonsense, but if nonsense and gibberish is what you end up producing – if you end up bungling some relatively clear and easy concepts – that my being open to the possibility you’re not talking nonsense is not the same as a guarantee that I won’t think you’re talking nonsense, or even that you aren’t in fact talking nonsense?
No, I already dealt with this a while back, Nullasalus. You seem to think you have an infallible criterion for distinguishing nonsense from sense. You do not appear to consider the possibility that your criterion may be faulty. That's why I said that you have locked yourself into a position where you cannot be wrong.
Keep in mind, this comes hot on the heels of you – regularly – insisting that people (for example) don’t understand or haven’t actually read Dennett’s writings when they say he denies (free will, consciousness, etc), and that it hardly seems to occur to you that they read him and found his positions reduced to denials of such.
Oh, I'm sure they do find that his positions reduce to denials of such. That doesn't mean that they have performed the reduction correctly.
You deny to others what you demand for yourself, and with less justification.
um, no.
I’ll put it more briefly: If the litmus test for deciding whether or not I’m open to the possibility that you’re not talking nonsense is ‘If you decide that I’m not talking nonsense after all’, it’s a pretty crappy test, and one I’m not worried about passing.
And if the litmus test for deciding whether or not I am talking nonsense is whether you think I'm talking nonsense, then as I said, you have locked yourself into a position in which you cannot be wrong. It is, in fact, possible to make errors in logic - to conclude that a piece of reasoning is fallacious when it is not. It's a rather serious kind of error, because it tends to be self-perpetuating in a way that making an error of fact is not. Faced with infirming evidence, we can fairly easily say: "aha, I was wrong - my theory predicted circular orbits, but in fact they are elliptical". However, if we are have erroneously concluded that an argument is fallacious, it is much more difficult to correct the error, because the tendency is to repeat original the logical error. I'm not saying you have made a logical error, or that I have not; I'm simply saying that if you have, by assuming that your nonsense-detecting equipment is infallible you have disabled yourself from correcting it, if indeed it is not.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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However, if you are willing to entertain the at least the possibility that perhaps I am not talking nonsense, but rather struggling to convey novel concepts, then I am happy to try continue. Do you appreciate the possibility that A) perhaps in your 'struggling to convey novel concepts', you are - in fact - talking nonsense? That B) Perhaps the position you wish to defend ultimately is, in fact, nonsense - and that your struggling to explain it, and producing nonsense in the process, may be indicative of such? That C) I could in fact be open to the possibility that your position is not nonsense, but if nonsense and gibberish is what you end up producing - if you end up bungling some relatively clear and easy concepts - that my being open to the possibility you're not talking nonsense is not the same as a guarantee that I won't think you're talking nonsense, or even that you aren't in fact talking nonsense? Keep in mind, this comes hot on the heels of you - regularly - insisting that people (for example) don't understand or haven't actually read Dennett's writings when they say he denies (free will, consciousness, etc), and that it hardly seems to occur to you that they read him and found his positions reduced to denials of such. You deny to others what you demand for yourself, and with less justification. I'll put it more briefly: If the litmus test for deciding whether or not I'm open to the possibility that you're not talking nonsense is 'If you decide that I'm not talking nonsense after all', it's a pretty crappy test, and one I'm not worried about passing.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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Well, your response seems to indicate that you have decided that as I appear to be talking nonsense, I obviously am, and so there is no point in inquiring further. That's fine, but obviously in that case there is no point in my trying to clarify further either. However, if you are willing to entertain the at least the possibility that perhaps I am not talking nonsense, but rather struggling to convey novel concepts, then I am happy to try continue. As I said, just let me know which. This is not sarcasm, although my tone no doubt betrays the irritation I do in fact feel. But I don't give up communication challenges easily, not least because I am interested in counter-arguments to my own positions. It was as a result of persuasive counter-arguments to the view I originally held, that I changed my mind.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Are you interested in what I am trying to say, or are you only interested in mocking? See, that's the funny thing. I'm hardly mocking here - I'm pointing out what you're saying, and highlighting the fact that it makes no sense and explains nothing. So you try to explain again, and you make the same mistakes. Even the 'emergence' line wasn't mockery so much as anticipating what has become a consistent move. The way I see it, you're telling me "I want to be able to give an explanation. But even if it makes no sense, even if it's obvious nonsense, even if it's incoherent, I want you, nullasalus, to act as if it's worth considering and deserves respect. I can refer to an afterlife as 'pie in the sky when I die', but making light of the flaws in my reasoning, I cannot abide." I'm not about to treat nonsense with respect, materialist or not. If you try to 'explain' something by buzzwording your way through it or using faulty reasoning, I'll have a little fun. I'd say you can avoid this by just avoiding the faulty reasoning or the incoherent examples, but I'm not sure you've got much else.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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Nullasalus: Are you interested in what I am trying to say, or are you only interested in mocking? If the former, I will try to explain further. If the latter, I won't. Just let me know. Thanks.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Hope that makes more sense. So, it was conscious, just not conscious of itself? But it gave itself (the thing it was not conscious of) a name ('I'm not aware of this thing's existence, but I'm going to name it anyway!'), and this naming of itself while unconscious of itself and without being aware of itself is what made it conscious of itself "and thus self-aware"? Also, all of this awareness and intentionality is derived (so it could only 'name itself' as derived from another thing, which also would have had to 'name itself', which in turn would only be doing so in virtue of yet another thing, and so on unto infinity or bruteness)? No, it makes no sense at all. You're explaining consciousness by saying a thing that was not aware of itself became aware of itself, and that's how it's aware of itself. Quick, use the word emergence! That'll patch this up in a jiffy! ;)nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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Oh, and Mung: context matters. Just sayin'Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Nullasalus:
The unconscious thing that is unconscious of itself isn’t self-aware consciously names itself thereby becoming conscious of itself and thus self aware.
Hope that makes more sense.
Well… *flails arms madly* Penny drop emergence Dennett love love love non-reductive! There, Mung. If that doesn’t make it clear, nothing will.
Sometimes you guys can be very silly.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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OK. Well, there is a fundamental principle in neuroscience, known as "Hebb's Rule" after the Canadian neuroscientist Donald Hebb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_O._Hebb often expressed as: "what fires together, wires together", meaning that when two neurons activate simultaneously, the synaptic strength between the two is strengthened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebbian_theory This is called "long term potentiation" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_potentiation and involves the expression of proteins (a nice example of how DNA doesn't just build an organism but is key to its second-to-second functioning :)) This means that your brain changes, physically, in response to any brain process, whether spontaneous internally generated processes or processes that are initiated by external stimuli, generating a feed-back loop. And we can even see this at a gross structural level. The text-book example is of London taxi-drivers who are required to learn a vast body of knowledge (called "The Knowledge") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Knowledge#The_Knowledge and whose hippcampi, a part of the brain implicated in spatial navigation, were found to be significantly enlarged. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm But there have been other examples, including an experimental study in which students' brains were measured before and after learning to juggle, and compared with those who did not train to juggle. http://www.child-encyclopedia.com/documents/PausANGxp1.pdf although, interestingly, the change was not permanent. But structural studies are just the most dramatic - there is plenty of direct evidence of long-term potentiation at the neural level, resulting in changes in neural firing patterns during learning. That is the sense in which our brains are "plastic" - unlike computers there is no clear division between "hardware" and "software" - the "hardware" itself is changed in response to brain activity, generating new patterns of brain activity which in turn result in further changes. And, if we go below network level, to the actual neurons, there are changes in the degree to which DNA is expressed - resulting in changes to the number of receptors, the amount of neurotransmitter, the amount of neuromodulator, the degree of neurotransmitter reuptake, etc.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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The brain, as you know, is plastic. No, I did not know that the brain is plastic. Explain.Mung
July 18, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Indeed I’d also argue that a key part of that process is the labelling itself ...
As I’ve said before, I try to avoid labels where possible, because of the baggage they tend to have attached to them! - Elizabeth Liddle
Indeed.Mung
July 18, 2011
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Indeed I’d also argue that a key part of that process is the labelling itself – that by naming our brain-owner as “I” we call it into consciousness and become self-aware. So the key part of consciousness is the consciousness part. We've got a breakthrough here. ;) The unconscious thing that isn't self-aware consciously names itself thereby becoming conscious and self aware. Doesn't make sense? Well... *flails arms madly* Penny drop emergence Dennett love love love non-reductive! There, Mung. If that doesn't make it clear, nothing will.nullasalus
July 18, 2011
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Mung:
Do you think the universe “bootstrapped” itself?
Probably not.
Do you think life “bootstrapped” itself?
Probably.
Do you think consciousness “bootstrapped” itself?
Almost certainly. And no, it is very far from fiction. During development we go from a single cell, which I suggest is conscious of nothing, to an adult, who is conscious of a great deal (note the change in pronoun even). I suggest that "bootstrapping" is a good metaphor for that process. We know that neural networks are not merely the result of differential gene expression during development but by activity within those networks - "bootstrapping" seems an excellent analogy for this process. As for words - yes, sometimes new ideas require new words. That does not mean they are not part of an explanation. But if the explanation is to be understood (even if disagreed with) there needs to be some willingness on the part of the reader to try to understand it. The brain, as you know, is plastic. Indeed, it's one of the arguments invoked to support mind-brain duality. I don't think those arguments are valid - it seems to me that brain-brain feedback is just as good a model, and I suggest, to use a word you dislike, that mind "emerges" from that brain-brain feedback. In other words, that the process by which our brain machinery parses the world, enabling us to navigate, also generates representations of the brain-owner herself, and it is this process that we call "mind" - and the brain-owner that we call "I". Indeed I'd also argue that a key part of that process is the labelling itself - that by naming our brain-owner as "I" we call it into consciousness and become self-aware.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Mung: do you know what “bootstrap” means?
I do know what it means. But I doubt that you do. Do you think the universe "bootstrapped" itself? Do you think life "bootstrapped" itself? Do you think consciousness "bootstrapped" itself? Every time you come across something you cannot explain you inject a word ("bootstrap" and "emergence" come to mind) that serves for you in place of an actual explanation. It's like your personal version of goddidit. No evidence required. No argument required. No science. Pure fiction.Mung
July 17, 2011
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Allanius @ 55: You know, ultimately, 'Calvinism' is just the religious version of materialistic atheism. "... As long as [men] remain in their fallen natural state, they are not free to choose that which is wholesome and right and leads to life. There is “another law” at work in them ..." Even a slave in chains is free in the way that matters. In actual fact, all men *are* "free to choose that which is wholesome and right and leads to life;" an individual man may not be able to effect that choice -- see Charles' post #46 for the distinction -- and no man, even say, Mother Teresa, is able to fully effect the choice. But, the choice, and the freedom to choose it, is always there. Even that most pathetic man, utterly enslaved by multitudes of specific habits of sin, is free to cry out, "God! have mercy on me;" that he does so cry out -- that he stops his rebellion against God -- is the "trigger" of his salvation. Moreover -- just as the 'atheists' who assert the logical entailments of atheism don't really believe their own assertions -- you don't actually believe what you are asserting. For, if you did believe it, why would you ever be trying to convince anyone (whether a Christian or an 'atheist') of its truth? Your actions in trying to convince "men in their fallen state" to "come to Jesus", or in trying to convince a Christian that 'Calvinism' is actually what the Bible teaches, and thus what he ought to believe about his nature and relationship to God, are totally contrary to your assertions that he is not free. For, only in freedom is conviction even possible.Ilion
July 17, 2011
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Charles @ 46, Those are good points and distinctions you draw. The inability (or disinclination) to grasp these distinctions is one of the tap-roots feeding denial of 'free will.' That is, an active denier of 'libertarian free will' may "argue" that as we cannot do *everything* we wish to do, this means that we are not free; and the people who can't spot sophistry will think, "yeah, that's a good point."Ilion
July 17, 2011
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Ilion:
Consider the following thought-experiment – If some hypothetical person’s foot is amputated, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? If our HP’s arms and legs are amputated, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? If each of our HP’s internal organs is, in turn, removed (from what is left of him) and replaced with a built-machine capable of performing the organ’s life-support functions, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? If the whole of trunk of our HP’s body is amputated (and appropriate life-support machinery connected to his now decapitated head), does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? We know that the answer to these questions is “No.” We know that through all these changes to — and elimination of the parts of — the body, the human person remains himself, and remains a unified being and remains whole. Therefore, we know that neither the existence of the human person, nor his unity, nor his wholeness as a being, depends upon these bodily parts.
However, if, rather than remove his limbs and truck, we remove parts of his brain - then what? What if we sever his corpus callosum (as is sometimes done in cases of severe epilepsy)? What if we damage his memory? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Wearing What if he suffers from Alzheimer's disease? Or schizophrenia in which he has delusions of alien control? Is it obvious still that the answer to these question is "no"?Elizabeth Liddle
July 17, 2011
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Mung: do you know what "bootstrap" means? (rhetorical question - I know you do). Think about it :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 17, 2011
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I think consciousness would be better understood if we regarded it as a verb, like “to perceive” than solely as a noun or adjective (“consciousness”; “consciousness”). - Elizabeth Liddle
Ah yes, which came first, the noun or the verb. The "chicken" or the "to lay an egg." So shall we then call it the perceiver? What does it mean to say "to perceive" if there is nothing there to do the perceiving? What is a verb?
A verb, from the Latin verbum meaning word, is a word (part of speech) that in syntax conveys an action (bring, read, walk, run, learn), or a state of being (be, exist, stand).
An action, requires an actor. A state of being, requires a being. To have a perception, to perceive requires not only that which perceives, but also that which is perceived. Consciousness is the perceiving perceiver of the perception.Mung
July 17, 2011
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Mung:
And I reject “I-body” dualism for the same reason as I reject particle-wave dualism. – Elizabeth Liddle
The lack of scientific evidence?
Well, there isn't any scientific evidence for I-body dualism that I am aware of. Like particle-wave dualism, they are just different models of the same thing, useful for different things.Elizabeth Liddle
July 17, 2011
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