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How is libertarian free will possible?

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In this post, I’m going to assume that the only freedom worth having is libertarian free will: the free will I possess if there are choices that I have made during my life where I could have chosen differently, under identical circumstances. That is, I believe that libertarian free will is incompatible with determinism. By contrast, indeterminism is compatible with the existence of libertarian freedom, but in no way implies it.

There are some people who think that even if your choices are fully determined by your circumstances, they are still free, if you selected them for a reason and if you are capable of being educated to act for better reasons. People who think like that are known as compatibilists. I’m not one of them; I’m an incompatibilist. Specifically, I’m what an agent-causal incompatibilist: I believe that humans have a kind of agency (an ability to act) that cannot be explained in terms of physical events.

Some time ago, I came across The Cogito Model of human freedom, on The Information Philosopher Web site, by Dr. Roddy Doyle. The Website represents a bold philosophical attempt to reconcile the valid insights underlying both determinism and indeterminism. The authors of the model argue that it accords well with the findings of quantum theory, and guarantees humans libertarian freedom, but at the same time avoids the pitfall of making chance the cause of our actions. Here’s an excerpt:

Our Cogito model of human freedom combines microscopic quantum randomness and unpredictability with macroscopic determinism and predictability, in a temporal sequence.

Why have philosophers been unable for millennia to see that the common sense view of human freedom is correct? Partly because their logic or language preoccupation makes them say that either determinism or indeterminism is true, and the other must be false. Our physical world includes both, although the determinism we have is only an adequate description for large objects. So any intelligible explanation for free will must include both indeterminism and adequate determinism.

At first glance, Dr. Doyle’s Cogito Model appears to harmonize well with the idea of libertarian free will. Doyle makes a point of disavowing determinism, upholding indeterminism, championing Aristotle, admiring Aquinas and upholding libertarian free will. However, it turns out that he’s no Aristotelian, and certainly no Thomist. Indeed, he isn’t even a bona fide incompatibilist. Nevertheless, Doyle’s Cogito Model is a highly instructive one, for it points the way to how a science-friendly, authentically libertarian account of freedom might work.

There are passages on Dr. Doyle’s current Web site (see for instance paragraphs 3 and 4 of his page on Libertarianism) where he appears to suggest that our character and our values determine our actions. This is of course absurd: if I could never act out of character, then I could not be said to have a character. I would be a machine.

Misleadingly, in his Web page on Libertarianism, Dr. Doyle conflates the incoherent view that “an agent’s decisions are not connected in any way with character and other personal properties” (which is surely absurd) with the entirely distinct (and reasonable) view that “one’s actions are not determined by anything prior to a decision, including one’s character and values, and one’s feelings and desires” (emphases mine). Now, I have no problem with the idea that my bodily actions are determined by my will, which is guided by my reason. However, character, values, feelings and desires are not what makes an action free – especially as Doyle makes it quite clear in his Cogito Model that he envisages all these as being ultimately determined by non-rational, physicalistic causes:

Macro Mind is a macroscopic structure so large that quantum effects are negligible. It is the critical apparatus that makes decisions based on our character and values.

Information about our character and values is probably stored in the same noise-susceptible neural circuits of our brain…

The Macro Mind has very likely evolved to add enough redundancy, perhaps even error detection and correction, to reduce the noise to levels required for an adequate determinism.

The Macro Mind corresponds to natural selection by highly determined organisms.

There is a more radical problem with Doyle’s model: he acknowledges the reality of downward causation, but because he is a materialist, he fails to give a proper account of downward causation. He seems to construe it in terms of different levels of organization in the brain: Macro Mind (“a macroscopic structure so large that quantum effects are negligible… the critical apparatus that makes decisions based on our character and values”) and Micro Mind (“a random generator of frequently outlandish and absurd possibilities”) – the latter being susceptible to random quantum fluctuations, from which the former makes a rational selection.

Doyle goes on to say:

Our decisions are then in principle predictable, given knowledge of all our past actions and given the randomly generated possibilities in the instant before decision. However, only we know the contents of our minds, and they exist only within our minds. Thus we can feel fully responsible for our choices, morally and legally.

This passage leads me to conclude that Doyle is a sort of compatibilist, after all. As I’ve said, I’m not.

So how do I envisage freedom? I’d like to go back to a remark by Karl Popper, in his address entitled, Natural Selection and the Emergence of Mind, delivered at Darwin College, Cambridge, November 8, 1977. Let me say at the outset that I disagree with much of what Popper says. However, I think he articulated a profound insight when he said:

A choice process may be a selection process, and the selection may be from some repertoire of random events, without being random in its turn. This seems to me to offer a promising solution to one of our most vexing problems, and one by downward causation.

Let’s get back to the problem of downward causation. How does it take place? The eminent neurophysiologist and Nobel prize winner, Sir John Eccles, openly advocated a “ghost in the machine” model in his book Facing Reality, 1970 (pp. 118-129). He envisaged that the “ghost” operates on neurons that are momentarily poised close to a threshold level of excitability.

But that’s not how I picture it.

My model of libertarian free will

Reasoning and choosing are indeed immaterial processes: they are actions that involve abstract, formal concepts. (By the way, computers don’t perform formal operations; they are simply man-made material devices that are designed to mimic these operations. A computer is no more capable of addition than a cash register, an abacus or a Rube Goldberg machine.)

Reasoning is an immaterial activity. This means that reasoning doesn’t happen anywhere – certainly not in some spooky Cartesian soul hovering 10 centimeters above my head. It has no location. Ditto for choice. However, choices have to be somehow realized on a physical level, otherwise they would have no impact on the world. The soul doesn’t push neurons, as Eccles appears to think; instead, it selects from one of a large number of quantum possibilities thrown up at some micro level of the brain (Doyle’s micro mind). This doesn’t violate quantum randomness, because a selection can be non-random at the macro level, but random at the micro level. The following two rows of digits will serve to illustrate my point.

1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1

The above two rows of digits were created by a random number generator. Now suppose I impose the macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have:

1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0

Each row is still random, but I have imposed a non-random macro-level constraint. That’s how my will works when I make a choice.

For Aristotelian-Thomists, a human being is not two things – a soul and a body – but one being, capable of two radically different kinds of acts – material acts (which other animals are also capable of) and formal, immaterial actions, such as acts of choice and deliberation. In practical situations, immaterial acts of choice are realized as a selection from one of a large number of randomly generated possible pathways.

On a neural level, what probably happens when an agent decides to raise his/her arm is this: the arm goes through a large number of micro-level muscular movements (tiny twitches) which are randomly generated at the quantum level. The agent tries these out over a very short interval of time (a fraction of a second) before selecting the one which feels right – namely, the one which matches the agent’s desire to raise his/her arm. This selection continues during the time interval over which the agent raises his/her arm. The wrong (randomly generated quantum-level) micro-movements are continually filtered out by the agent.

The agent’s selection usually reflect his/her character, values and desires (as Doyle proposes) – but on occasion, it may not. We can and do act out of character, and we sometimes act irrationally. Our free will is not bound to act according to reason, and sometimes we act contrary to it (akrasia, or weakness of will, being a case in point).

So I agree with much of what Doyle has to say, but with this crucial difference: I do not see our minds as having been formed by the process of natural selection. Since thinking is an immaterial activity, any physicalistic account of its origin is impossible in principle.

Comments
(4) I can’t for the life of me see why an Aristotelian would want to defend Darwin.
From Aristotle to Darwin and Back Again: A Journey in Final Causality, Species and Evolution http://darwinianconservatism.blogspot.com/2009/04/aristotle-darwin-and-marjorie-grene.htmlMung
July 17, 2011
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According to the Bible, man had free will but threw it all away in order to obtain the knowledge of good and evil. Man was free to choose from all of the fruits in the garden; but by choosing the forbidden fruit, he forfeited his freedom. The knowledge of good and evil deprived him of moral freedom by opening his eyes to his nakedness, his mortality. After the fall, he was no longer free to act as a moral agent. He lived in psychic bondage to the grave. Unlike philosophy, the Bible does not describe mind as the highest value known to man. That distinction is reserved for life: “In him was life, and this life was the light of men.” All Biblical morality is based on the value of life. When man lived in paradise, he was free to act as a moral agent because he had life. He lost his freedom when he made a conscious, deliberate choice that led to death: “You will surely die.” In Biblical terms, determinism boils down to the fact that all men are like the grass. They are going to die, and this outcome is fully determined. As long as they remain in their fallen natural state, they are not free to choose that which is wholesome and right and leads to life. There is “another law” at work in them, the law of sin and death, which produces the following conundrum: “The things I would do I cannot do, and the thing I would not do—that is the very thing I do.” Our actions are determined, often for ill, by the psychological captivity of death. The Jews lived in bondage in Egypt until they put the blood of lambs on their doorposts as a sign of their liberation by an act of God. Similarly, we live in bondage unless we have the sign of the cross and the lamb of God in our hearts. Only this sign has the power to transport us into the realm of life and give us the freedom to act as moral agents, following the light of life and imitating Christ. Without it, we are just what the New Atheists say we are. The Biblical view of free will is perfectly consistent because it is based on the value of life. The dividedness seen in philosophy comes from glorifying mind instead of life. This valuation, which makes men seem “like God” by glorifying their thinking, also leads to a curious and amusing dilemma. Plato sought freedom from the unhappiness of embodied existence in the concept of pure mind, but this concept leads to determinism by eliminating the choice offered by body. Aristotle tried to reinstate free will by making the good immanent in bodies themselves, but the moral choices he describes are fixed by the golden mean and the nature of the opposites. Since philosophy glorifies mind, the only possibility philosophers have for obtaining freedom is in the difference between mind and body. Plato’s method of obtaining freedom leads to nothingness. If we raise intellect to divine status, and totalize its force of resistance to body, we wind up with the negation of body as if it had no value, resulting in the loss of all freedom of choice. Aristotle managed to restore freedom of choice by reinvesting bodies with value. If bodies have value as well as minds, then there are moral choices to be made. Politically speaking, the followers of Plato, Idealists of all descriptions, tend to have totalitarian enthusiasms. They want to eliminate freedom of choice for the good of all people, just as Plato did in his Republic; just as Sam Harris would do, if he had the power. Aristotle’s concept of value is more friendly to democracy. For instance, he supported private ownership, since he believed that husbandry puts land owners in touch with the goodness of nature. Private ownership is also the basis of self-governance and participatory democracy. The fight over “free will,” then, is usually a proxy battle for something else. If someone is against it, it’s better than even money that they have grand designs for you and want to remake you in their image. Darwinists are opposed to free will because they don’t want schoolchildren to be free to choose. They believe our salvation lies in Darwin, and their opposition to free will is a way of providing philosophical cover to a certain political agenda. Count on it—Harris, Dawkins, Provine et al are opposed to free will becase they want you to do something. We’re living in a political world.allanius
July 17, 2011
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And I reject “I-body” dualism for the same reason as I reject particle-wave dualism. - Elizabeth Liddle
The lack of scientific evidence?Mung
July 17, 2011
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Ilion:
Therefore, the reality (and unity) of the human person — the ‘mind’, the ‘self,’ the ‘free will,’ the ‘I’ — is not in any way dependent upon matter.
I always wondered what kept "my" atoms in "my" brain and why "my" atoms can't become part of a different brain making that person "me." vjtorley:
it’s just that my “me”-ness will be incomplete, in the absence of my body, until the resurrection of the dead takes place.
Which body of yours? Why do "we" believe that it is the exact same body that will be raised? Particularly when Scripture explicitly states otherwise?Mung
July 17, 2011
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As I’ve said before, I try to avoid labels where possible, because of the baggage they tend to have attached to them! - Elizabeth Liddle
Mung
July 17, 2011
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tragic mishap: Exactly. Which is why, when the penny dropped (as I see it) that substance dualism was not required to account for mind and brain, I also lost any justification for positing God.Elizabeth Liddle
July 17, 2011
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There is probably much I can agree with in Aquinas, VJ. I prefer to use the term "soul" (Hebrew: naphesh, Greek: psyche) to mean the entire person, including the body. "Spirit" on the other hand is the entirely immaterial portion of a person (Hebrew: ruah, Greek: pneuma). Thus when I die my soul ceases to exist until the resurrection, but my spirit is just fine. The spirit serves as sort of a template for the resurrection of the body, at which time my "soul" will again be complete. One of my main problems with monism and hylomorphic dualism is God's place in it. If there really is only one "substance" and one world, then God is subject to all the same physical laws as we are. In principle, we could observe Him without His permission if our technology progressed enough. If God is part of the physical universe, then laws he supposedly created he is also subject to. I don't think that's really possible and I don't think God can really be a part of something he created from nothing. So unless you drop creation ex nihilo then substance dualism is required. Not to mention being a convenient place for the human spirit as well.tragic mishap
July 17, 2011
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Elizabeth: I understand your point, but disagree. Whatever we rationalize after having acted does not change the degree of responsibility of our actions. It is true, instead, that the acceptance of the concept that we are responsible is very important for our future actions: it is a step in the right direction. But it is not important how big is the domain of reality for which we imagine we can be responsible. The important thing, on the contrary, is to be realistic: to exert our free will in things we can really change, humbly, but with the constant intention to become better. IOWs, it is not the imaginary statemdents about ourselves that our ego emanates that built our true self. It is our goodwill, our inner love for truth and good, our attunement with that "moral field" that our intuition percives behind our thoughts, behind our actions. That's why the religious man gives everything to God: that is the supreme exertion of free will, the inner renounciation to exert our power over good and evil, and the loving acceptance that all our will, our desire and our thought should cooperate with the supreme will, where all good and truth abides. So, the importance difference between our views is that both of us give great importance to the personal faculty to change one's destiny, but I maintain that that faculty has meaning only because there is an objective truth about ourselves and our possible choices, a truth that is not created by us, and which we can only receive and accept, or refute.gpuccio
July 17, 2011
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Well, gpuccio, putting it as "feeling guilty to enlarge our ego" doesn't sound very nice, I'd agree. But I don't think that's what it amounts to. I'm not talking about the "ego" here, in the sense it is usually used (not, in fact, usually in Freud's sense). I'm simply talking about the "I" - the referent for that pronoun, and the extent of the agency we attribute to it. If I say I have free will (and I do) I am, in effect (Dennett argues) saying that there is a domain of causality that I regard as coterminous with me. Further more, Dennett is also saying (and agree with him) is that in regarding myself as coterminous with that domain, I am accepting moral responsibility for actions within that domain. To take two extreme cases: A person could commit a terrible crime, and then plead, at her trial, that she was not responsible for her actions, that "the voices made me do it" or that "I was driven out of my mind by his cruelty" or "I had PMS" or whatever. By that plea, she is saying "I am only responsible for a very small domain of actions - for the actions of which I am accused, I am merely an avolitional passenger on a surge of events that are out of my control." In other words that "I have very little freedom of action - free volition"." Take that same woman who says: "I take full responsibility for my crime; yes I was hearing voices, but I could have resisted them - I knew they were wrong; yes, I was suffering from PMS, but I should have made sure that I did not put myself in a position in which other people would be put in danger; yes, he was cruel to me, but there were other solutions, and I should have pursued them". That woman is not "feeling guilty to enlarge her ego" in my view. What she is doing is saying "I have free will - I am responsible for may actions, even in the face of adverse circumstance". It is not that one woman is right and the other wrong. That the first rightly or wrongly takes a Hard Indeterminist view of Free Will and the second, rightly or wrongly takes a Compatibilist view. It's that in taking the view each adopts, each, by that same token, adopts a different definition of her self In other words, it is not that free will is true or false, but that the answer depends entirely on how we define the thing that is alleged to be (or not) free: "I". And that itself is a matter of choice :) And so, by saying "I am free" I become so, whether or not determinism is true. And by becoming so, I am accepting moral responsibility. It's something, as Dennett says, that only human beings appear to have the capacity to do, and it's what makes us human. I would say (or would have said anyway) it's what gives us our soul :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 17, 2011
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Elizabeth: Well, I disagree with you on most points, but I suppose that we should go into deepp philosophical discussions, and even religious specific arguments, to go further. So, I would leave this particular argument to that. Just a few brief comments: I do believe the light is always on, in different ways. I do believe that consciousness can exist, intensely and joyously, without any relevant formal content. As for Dennet and the father example, I don't agree with his (and your) point. Our responsibility is what it is, whatever we can imagine. Feeling guilty to enlarge our ego does not seem a fruitful strategy, to me. On the contrary, a very successful religious strategy is to give everything to God, both our sins and merits, and be joyously humble in Him. I would like to close this brief post with a quote about responsibility form one of my favourite books of all times, The practice of the presence of God, by Brother Lawrence. I believe it conveys wonderfully the special, very strange concept of "responsibility" in true religious experience: "He said he carried no guilt because, "When I fail in my duty, I readily acknowledge it, saying, I am used to do so. I shall never do otherwise if I am left to myself. If I do not fail, then I immediately give God thanks, acknowledging that it comes from Him."gpuccio
July 17, 2011
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vjtorley: There still remains the problem of how an immaterial act of mine, such as thinking, can affect my body, as it must for free will to have any practical significance. Yes, how immaterial thinking can affect the body is not understood, but no, thought control over the body is not the significance of free will. A more precise statement might be "... as it must for free will to have any practical consequence", but I would quibble with that as well. We can think as we choose without limit. From Einstein's thought experiments on relativity to Hawking's theorizing on black holes. Einstein's body was under control of his mind, but Hawking's was not. I can decide with complete libertarian free will to jump off a cliff and fly, but gravity will limit the consequence of that decision, regardless of the control my thoughts have over my body. Having mental control over our bodies is essential to implement free will decisions, but moving our bodies is a consequence of free will, not a determinative pre-condition. ALS patients think with the same freedom, clarity and acuity as do the rest of us, but have degenerating control over their bodies. The distinction between decision and consequence is important to avoid needlessly encumbering the explanations of how and where decisions are made. In seeking an explanation of how an immaterial mind controls a material body, one is struck by the marvelous complexity of the immaterial mind; without being consciously aware, decisions to move a muscle are enacted against precisely the correct motor functions of the brain. Unlike fingers manually targeting keypads on a keyboard, the mind is automatically connected and interfaced to a myriad of physical controls and feedbacks activated singly or multiply, as well as vast and minute memory retrieval. A computer operating system is programmed with hundreds if not thousands of device control commands, and while we talk of an "operating system" as a singular monolithic entity, it is in fact thousands of subroutines associated with device control and memory management alone. Our minds, seemingly, have thousands of motor control and memory retrieval "subroutines" all precisely interfaced with different areas of the brain, and all of it working without our consciously having to select and activate any particular "subroutine". We think "lift arm" and it lifts. Unlike a computer operating system we don't think "compose arm lift command sequence; address left arm driver; copy arm lift command sequence to left arm driver buffer; execute left arm driver"; step arm muscle adapter thru arm lift command sequence; return result code; ..." As complex as are our physical bodies and brains, our minds are "preprogrammed" to manage that complexity. Our minds practice becoming proficient in that management as we mature from infancy, but all the basic "body activation subroutines" seem built in from birth (or inception?) regardless of how monolithic the "mind" seems to be. Whether the body is uncontrollable as in an ALS patient, or controllable but irrelevant as in Einstein's thought experiments, free will exists and is exercised in the mind, regardless of the consequences and limitations imposed by the body and nature. A final point: Jesus pointed out (Mat 16:26) "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? Paul in 2Cor 5 likens our material bodies to "tents" (temporary dwellings) in which we (implicitly, our souls) reside until our souls are absent the body and present with the Lord. Christ died to save our souls, not our flesh. As complex and marvelous as are our physical bodies, our minds and souls seem even moreso and they are what God values, not our bodies. The gift of physical life of earthly tents pales in comparison to the gift of eternal life of the immortal soul.Charles
July 17, 2011
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gpuccio:
Elizabeth: I think that after all our fundamental views are not compatible, although we certainly share many practical and human convictions (that is ceratinly very important). Your model, although “smoothed” by your very positive appraoch, remains essentially strong AI and, I am afraid, compatibilism. So, I have to freindly disagree (no big problem, after all).
No, no problem at all! But yes, my position is Strong AI and compatibilist AFAICT.
I will not insist on the main points I have already discussed. I can, maybe, add some considerations inspired by your last post. a) Why I detest the “emergent property” concept. To make it short, because it is vague, ill defined, ambiguous, and used essentially to support wrong statements. Its use to suggest that cosnciousness can emerge from a sun of parts is typical bad reasoning. To remain short, I take some examples of “emergence” from Wikipedia: The game of chess: “Indeed, you cannot even reliably predict the next move in a chess game. Why? Because the “system” involves more than the rules of the game. It also includes the players and their unfolding, moment-by-moment decisions among a very large number of available options at each choice point. The game of chess is inescapably historical, even though it is also constrained and shaped by a set of rules, not to mention the laws of physics. Moreover, and this is a key point, the game of chess is also shaped by teleonomic, cybernetic, feedback-driven influences. It is not simply a self-ordered process; it involves an organized, “purposeful” activity.” Maybe because conscious, intelligent, pusposeful agents are involved? “The shape and behaviour of a flock of birds [1] or school of fish are also good examples.” And, I suppose, nobody understands what governs those mysterious phenomena. Design? So called “self-organizinf systems”, a la Prigogine: “For example, the shape of weather phenomena such as hurricanes are emergent structures. The development and growth of complex, orderly crystals, as driven by the random motion of water molecules within a conducive natural environment, is another example of an emergent process, where randomness can give rise to complex and deeply attractive, orderly structures. Water crystals forming on glass demonstrate an emergent natural process, where a high level of organizational structure is crafted directly by the random motion of water molecules.[citation needed] However, crystalline structure and hurricanes are said to have a self-organizing phase.” Bit in all these examples, we understand the laws, the mathemathics, and the mix of necessity and randomness that determines the result. There are explicit models, convincing models, for that “emergence”. Nothing of that kind is true for consciousness.
But that isn't a criticism of emergence as a concept - it's just the claim that it isn't relevant to consciousness. I think it is.
b) You say: “I don’t understand what this means.” Well, cosnciousness is a fact. We directly perceive ourselves as conscious beings. This is a fact. All other facts, the perception of a tree or of a star, are possible only because we perceive ourselves as conscious, and because therefore we have conscious represenattions of the world. That’s why I say that: “consciousness is a fact, and it precedes, in our reconstruction of reality, the experience of matter and of the outer world.” I hope it’s clear now.
Yes, that is much clearer, thanks! Now, I simply disagree with it! I don't think that "the perception of a tree [is] only possible...because we have conscious representations of the world". I think that is circular. I think consciousness is the capacity to perceive things - that the second doesn't follow from the first, it is the first. And to support that claim I'd ask: what kind of consciousness would it be to perceive nothing at all? Including the absence of anything? I submit that if we perceived nothing at all, including the perception that we were perceiving nothing, we would not be conscious. In other words, I think consciousness would be better understood if we regarded it as a verb, like "to perceive" than solely as a noun or adjective ("consciousness"; "consciousness"). Moreover, it should be a transitive verb. So let me coin one - to conch. A conscious being is one that is conching something. Conchousness is the state of conching things. Conching things covers a bit more than simply perceiving things, because we can conch things that are not present, and we can also conch the absence of things, as well as abstractions like "injustice"; "anger", and relations between things: causal relations; proximities; agents; intentional causality. I submit that by replacing "consciousness" with "the state of conching things" we omit nothing that is key to the original term, but we cast it in a grammatical form that allows us to ask answerable questions about how it works. We also completely dispense with duality, because instead of having "consciousness" on one hand and "brain" on the other, we have a brain capable of conching stuff.
c) I say: “Therefore, consciousness is the “fact of all facts”, and must have an independent reality in our map.” You say you don’t understand. Well, if we perceive a tree, what do we say? We say that it exists, and we include it in our map of reality. We don’t expect to have a theory of trees explained on the basis of, say, stones to admit their independent reality. trees exist. we give them a name, and try to understand what they are and how they in teract with the rest of reality.
Yes indeed. The way we conch trees is as objects in space. We also conch our own spatial relationship with the tree, as well as our own emotional relationship with it, maybe (there's an awesome oak tree a couple of miles from our house that never fails to raise my heart rate a little!) Our ability to conch is indeed a fact. But that doesn't mean its an object like a tree, or even a phenomenon like a tree. It's more like the phenomenon "growth". A thing something does, not a thing something is.
The same must be true for consciousness. We perceive consciousness “before” perceiving a tree. It exists. We must include it in our map of reality. It is the fact of facts.
Yes, one of the things we can conch is conching. I'm doing it now :) Yes, it is included in our map of reality. I think that is key (and you are in danger of channelling Hofstadter here :)). My view is that the key to understanding self-consciousness (being able to conch that I am a conching thing) is our capacity to make a map of the world on which we not only place ourselves, but that includes the map itself. A bit like those model villages that include a model of the model village, that includes a model of the model village.... It is from that "Strange Loop" that "I" emerges - which is why Hofstadter really wanted to call his book: "I" is a "Strange Loop". Although the final title is cooler :)
d) You say: “You seem to have at least an implicit dualist model in which a chooser (Entity A) makes a selection from options offered by Entity B (the brain?)” No, I have a model where a subject (the I) express itself through a complex interface (mind and brain/body) which works in both directions, an interface that it perceives and by which it is influenced, and which it can to a point influence. Like in a videogame, just to understand.
Now, when we are very intrigued by a videogame, we become very much identified with the interface. But if we “were” the interface, there would be no game: like when a demo rolls on, and you cannot intervene. When we play at a game, we cannot do everything (unless we cheat). And what we can do at any moment is strongly influenced, and limited, by how we have played previously. But still we can originally influence the game, at any moment. But there is no doubt that a strong reciprocity exists, at any moment, between the interface (the game) and the subject(the player). Well, yes, but your interface implies dualism. Doesn't it? The interface may be complex but it remains an interface between TWO things, no? A chooser and a set of choices?
e) I don’t like Dennett. He is smart, but I don’t believe he uses his smartness correctly.
Well, you don't like emergence either, but it's scarcely an argument!
f) Let’s go to responsibility, and to the sad story of the father and child. I am sorry to say that a similar story recently happened here in Italy. Well, I don’t understand the point. Responsibility does not mean that we are responsible of anything which happens as direct or indirect consequence of all that we do. That would be true only if ous actions were completely free, and if we were omniscient and omnipotent. I have never thought that, and I donìt think that amy serious defender of libertarian free will ever has.
No, but Dennett's point is that the father has the opportunity for a "self-forming act" - he can include, or exclude, his omission from his self. If he includes it, he accepts a truly terrible moral responsibility; if he does not, he escapes it, but diminishes his self. That is the entire point of Dennett's (superb IMO) book - that the answer to "what does 'I' refer to?" is "what you assign moral responsibility to". I, in other words, refers to the agent of our own actions. Which is very simple actually. The clever part is where we draw the agency boundaries - we can draw them wide, and take on huge, perhaps an unbearable degree, of moral responsibility, or we can draw them narrow, avoid moral responsibility, but define ourselves almosts out of existence. As interestingly, J.K.Rowling implies about Voldemort (yes I've just come back from the last film!) - he is reduced to a nothing - a whimpering shell of humanity, incapable of volition. And, in the same scene, there's a lovely exchange between Dumbldore and Harry (I wish I could recall the exact words). Harry asks "is this real? or is just in my mind?". And Dumbldore says: "of course it's in your mind, Harry! That doesn't mean it isn't real". I felt like applauding!
So, what does responsibility mean? I think it is a very positive concept, rather than a harbinger of sin and gult. Responsibility means that we are free in the measure that we can “influence” our destiny. Sometimes we can influence it very little at present, but the cumulative action of good use of free will can build important results, in time.
Yes indeed. I agree with all that, and as far as I can see, it is included in my conceptualizatin.
That’s why we must never judge others (a concept which is well expressed in many religious paths). We cannot understand. We are not aware of the true context. But we can inspire others to change, if we believe, and make them believe, that they can change for the better. Gradually, patiently. Because it is true that they can change. Because, however difficult their present condition may be. they still have free will, and can gradually change it.
Yes, absolutely :) We do seem to have a lot in common!
In the same way, we should not judge ourselves. We cannot understand. We don’t know the true context. But, at the same time, we have the duty and the privilege to know that we are free, that we can change for the better. Whatever our condition is.
Yes. "Love your neighbour as you love yourself" is still the crowning precept for me, and we should not forget the last part. Sometimes we have to forgive ourselves.
g) You say: “I think we already have AI robots that are conscious of something extremely simple.” I don’t agree. Is that just your imagination? Have you any evidence?
Yes, as long as we use my approach. Let me rephrase using my new word: "I think we already have AI robots that can conch simple things". We know they do because we they alter their behaviour in response to those things. The behaviour, moreoever, is not stereotyped and reflexive - it demonstrates the taking into account of distal as well as proximal goals, and balance them; the robots can learn from experience; they can plan ahead - anticipate obstacles and take avoiding action. They even have a map of the world on which they feature, and which is constantly updated. This is what we do when we are conscious of our place in the world.
When one is conscious, one is conscious. One has conscious representations. Dim or vivid, but conscious. It is not a problem of complexity. We can have very deep and intense and meaningful representations which are extremely simple. Love, especially when it is deep and pure, is very simple. Pain can be very simple, anr yet excruciating and terrible. A mathemathical demonstration can be boring and unimportant for the student who goes through it.
I don't dispute any of those statements, atlhough I find some of them a little non-informative! So let me rewrite your first fewe sentences with my new word (sorry if this is irritating, but I find it a useful exercise): When one is conching things, one is conching things. We call our the products of our conching of things "representations" of those things. Those representations may be dim or vivid".
Where are your conscious robots? Why do you believe they are cosncious? Is that a just so story?
See above.
h) You say: “And, I would argue, that the “sum of parts” is an inadequate description of the whole. ” But consciousness is radically different. It is based on simplicity, on oneness. The I us a point that perceives, not a complex structure. The simple I percieves complex structures, may even identify with them. But, at any moment, the subject can “recede” at a metalevel, and what seemed to be part of the I becomes something observed by the I. But the I is always there, still perceiving.
Well, I don't agree that "the I is a point that perceives, not a complex structure". I think "I" is the name we give to the thing doing the perceiving - the conching. It's a simplifying, unifying label, just as "universe" is the name we give to the entirety of the world. Or, alternatively "reality". And yes, the subject of our attention - of or perception, or consciousness, can change moment by moment, including the perception of ourselves as observers. But I think the perception that consciousness is a state of flow - "the I is always there, still perceiving" - actually is an illusion. My favorite analogy is the fridge light - because the fridge light is always on when we need it, we have no perception that it ever goes off. We cannot "catch it" in the off state. And of course, that is all we need - we do not need the light to be on when we are not looking in the fridge. I suggest the same is true of our perception of ourselves - because we can be conscious of ourselves whenever we need to be, or, for that matter, of anything, as soon as we need to be, we have the illusion that we are always aware of everything - that the fridge light is always on. And it doesn't matter that it isn't. It's just more energy efficient :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 17, 2011
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Ilion and tragic mishap, Thank you both for your comments. I'd like to refer you both to a paper by Fr. John O'Callaghan, entitled, From Augustine's Mind to Aquinas' Soul , which traces the change in Aquinas' thinking from his youthful view that a human being is a soul, that this soul has two parts (the vegetative/sensitive soul and the mind), that the mind is the higher part of the soul, and that will, memory and intellect are the three powers of the mind (Augustine's view) to Aquinas' later and more mature view that a human being has a soul, that each of us has one (not two) principles of life, that the life of man includes everything from his vegetative functions to his intellect, that intellect and will are not powers of some thing called "the mind" but are simply two immaterial powers of the soul, and that the death of a human being is the death of a person. Hence a separated soul is not a human person, even though it is conscious and able to think, because it lacks a body. I gather that Ilion's view is much closer to Augustine's opinion than to Aquinas'. I would just like to ask him if he accepts that the soul is the form of the body. A few quick remarks: (1) From the earliest times, the Church has prayed for the souls of the faithful departed. I can't refer any prayer of the Church which refers to dead people as such. I don't have a big problem with the idea that when I die I will no longer be a person. I would say however that I will still be me; it's just that my "me"-ness will be incomplete, in the absence of my body, until the resurrection of the dead takes place. (2) For my part, I don't equate personal identity to brain identity. If my head could be transplanted to someone else's body, I don't think it would be me. I think my identity is bound up with my nervous system as well as my brain, and if someone's brain were transplanted into my body, I think that body would still be me. (3) The fact that the particles in my body are in continual flux is irrelevant. What matters is that the form perdures, as can be seen from the fact that the overall structures of the organs remain the same, and the parts continue to function as a unified whole. (4) I can't for the life of me see why an Aristotelian would want to defend Darwin. As I showed in parts 1 and 2 of my five-part reply to Professor Tkacz, Darwin and Aristotle (and especially Aquinas) don't mix. (5) tragic mishap writes that if I did not believe mind and body were two things, I would not have an interaction problem to solve. Not so. I believe that one and the same being is capable of both material and immaterial acts. There still remains the problem of how an immaterial act of mine, such as thinking, can affect my body, as it must for free will to have any practical significance. That is the problem that my posts on the interaction and libertarian free will were intended to address. Hope that helps.vjtorley
July 17, 2011
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All you have to do is trot out Aristotle and suddenly good theists start defending Darwinism and attacking ID (like Feser). It disgusts me.tragic mishap
July 16, 2011
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Exactly. If Mr. Torley did not believe that mind and body were two different things, then he would not have an interaction problem to solve. Thus I'm beginning to wonder whether hylomorphic dualism and substance dualism is a distinction without a difference. Unless of course hylomorphic dualism is required for consistency with Aristotelian cosmology. Aristotle and the Catholic Church: A match made in hell. They are lucky the materialists are covering for it on the geocentrism issue by blaming it on the Bible. Otherwise people might realize there has been no greater source of confusion, error and general BS in all of Western history. Darwinism doesn't even come close. Aristotle wins for stamina and deeper penetration.tragic mishap
July 16, 2011
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Tragic Mishap @ 26: "VJ, what exactly is your objection to substance dualism? You claim to have solved the only major problem with it." VJTorley @ 35: "In response to your question: I don’t think Cartesian substance dualism does justice to the unity of the human person. Mind and body are not two things; each of us is one being. That’s why I reject Cartesian substance dualism in favor of what Elizabeth has dubbed “I-body” dualism." Tragic Mishap @ 36: "So would you say that a person is like the Trinity, consisting of two distinguishable parts which are still wholly one being? I’m not that familiar with Descartes, but I sort of doubt that Descartes was saying the mind and body were not both part of a singular human being." I’d like to echo TM’s comment about Descartes. ... and add other comments: 1) Concerning the "official" RCC position on "Cartesian substance dualism" vs actual lived Catholicism -- Listening to folk like Edward Feser bang on about, or to a lesser extent, folk like Mr Torley speak about (forgive me if I am mis-remembering), the superiority of "hylomorphic unity" to "Cartesian substance dualism", one understands that one of the things logically entailed by the "hylomorphic unity" concept is that dead human persons do not (and cannot) exist when/while they are dead. Yet, Catholics, all over the world, pray to dead people, every day. 2) Concerning the statement that "Mind and body are not two things; each of us is one being." -- Indeed, we are each one being -- and, yet the immaterial mind and the material body are two different things; it's not just that we can talk about them as though they are, it's that they are. Consider the following thought-experiment -- If some hypothetical person's foot is amputated, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? If our HP's arms and legs are amputated, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? If each of our HP's internal organs is, in turn, removed (from what is left of him) and replaced with a built-machine capable of performing the organ's life-support functions, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? If the whole of trunk of our HP's body is amputated (and appropriate life-support machinery connected to his now decapitated head), does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? We know that the answer to these questions is "No." We know that through all these changes to -- and elimination of the parts of -- the body, the human person remains himself, and remains a unified being and remains whole. Therefore, we know that neither the existence of the human person, nor his unity, nor his wholeness as a being, depends upon these bodily parts. But, what of what is left of the body? Does the being of the human person depend upon, or follow from, the head (as a whole) or some individual part of it? If what little remains the original body of our hypothetical person is, in turn, removed, until only the brain remains, does he cease to exist? Does he become a different person? Again, the answer to is "No." Therefore, we know that neither the existence of the human person, nor his unity, nor his wholeness as a being, depends upon *those* bodily parts. But, what of what is left of the body? What of this, now, "brain in a box"? Does the being of the human person depend upon, or follow from, his brain? Does the mind of the human person depend upon, or follow from, his brain? So-called atheists -- and other materialists -- to the extent that they even acknowledge that human persons, and human minds, really do exist, will say "Yes". But, then, they have no other logical option, given their explicit or implicit commitment to materialism. They would say, in effect, that "Your brain is you." On the other hand, those few persons in the world who are not implicit philosophical materialists, will say "No" (else they'd be either explicit or implicit materialists); they would say, in effect, that "You are not your brain." Can this final question be resolved? Can it be answered without simply asserting one of the only two possible answers? Certainly, we could continue the above thought experiment, removing, in tern, certain scientifically identified parts of the brain of our hypothetical human person, until only a very few distinctly identified parts-of-the-brain remain and observing that he still exists, that he is still himself (however much he may rage at what we have done to him). Yet, there comes a point when that particular thought-experiment seems to reach the end of its utility: we have reached some state of a minimal "body" required for the existence of a human person, and the thought-experiment cannot go further ..else I would be simply asserting the denial of the broadly materialistic assertion about the nature of human persons. Or can it go further? Yes, it can, with a slight change of focus. What I have been doing in this thought-experiment -- removing the parts of the body and in some cases (when necessary for the continuance of biological life), replacing the parts with something else -- is already going on, continuously, throughout the bodies of each of us, including in our brains. Individual cells are "born" and die, continuously, but the person remains himself and remains a unified being. And, at a deeper level of biology, the individual cells of the body are constantly replacing the matter of which they are constructed with different matter, yet the continuance and unity of the human person, and the reality of the human mind is unaffected. We, each of us, are "made" of different matter from when we were born; and, for that matter, at this very instant we're not materially "made" of exactly the same matter, or configuration of matter, as we were just a moment ago. Therefore, the reality (and unity) of the human person -- the 'mind', the 'self,' the 'free will,' the 'I' -- is not in any way dependent upon matter. You exist independently of your body -- it is not you, and you are not it. The only options logically available are: 1) acknowledge that truth; 2) deny that you even exist at all, as the explicit materialists, who actually understand where they stand, assert. "But, but, but ..." you may whinge, "Ilíon, you haven't 'explained' how it is that the immaterial self/mind moves the material body; you haven't solved the so-called 'mind-body problem'"; to which I reply, "You have a point?" One may recall, in Mr Torley's "Why I think the interaction problem is real" thread, a certain conclusion I stated:
So, the choice is between a world-view that we can tame — but which is a known engine for generating false claims — and one that we cannot tame — but which generates no false claims.
Truth is truth, even if we cannot think of a way to "tame" it. The human mind, the human self, the human person, is distinct from -- and, ultimately, separate from -- his body, even if we fail to understand how to "explain" that truth in light of the implicit (or explicit) "folk materialism" (to paraphrase oh-so-superior phrase of the Chruchlands and Dennett and others) by which we reflexively, and habitually, seek to understand reality.Ilion
July 16, 2011
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One should not look for the car keys under the street-light when he knows that they are somewhere else.Ilion
July 16, 2011
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--"Well … there goes the neighborhood." When one is in search of a thought, he should not give up until he finds it.StephenB
July 16, 2011
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Elizabeth: I think that after all our fundamental views are not compatible, although we certainly share many practical and human convictions (that is ceratinly very important). Your model, although "smoothed" by your very positive appraoch, remains essentially strong AI and, I am afraid, compatibilism. So, I have to freindly disagree (no big problem, after all). I will not insist on the main points I have already discussed. I can, maybe, add some considerations inspired by your last post. a) Why I detest the "emergent property" concept. To make it short, because it is vague, ill defined, ambiguous, and used essentially to support wrong statements. Its use to suggest that cosnciousness can emerge from a sun of parts is typical bad reasoning. To remain short, I take some examples of "emergence" from Wikipedia: The game of chess: "Indeed, you cannot even reliably predict the next move in a chess game. Why? Because the “system” involves more than the rules of the game. It also includes the players and their unfolding, moment-by-moment decisions among a very large number of available options at each choice point. The game of chess is inescapably historical, even though it is also constrained and shaped by a set of rules, not to mention the laws of physics. Moreover, and this is a key point, the game of chess is also shaped by teleonomic, cybernetic, feedback-driven influences. It is not simply a self-ordered process; it involves an organized, “purposeful” activity." Maybe because conscious, intelligent, pusposeful agents are involved? "The shape and behaviour of a flock of birds [1] or school of fish are also good examples." And, I suppose, nobody understands what governs those mysterious phenomena. Design? So called "self-organizinf systems", a la Prigogine: "For example, the shape of weather phenomena such as hurricanes are emergent structures. The development and growth of complex, orderly crystals, as driven by the random motion of water molecules within a conducive natural environment, is another example of an emergent process, where randomness can give rise to complex and deeply attractive, orderly structures. Water crystals forming on glass demonstrate an emergent natural process, where a high level of organizational structure is crafted directly by the random motion of water molecules.[citation needed] However, crystalline structure and hurricanes are said to have a self-organizing phase." Bit in all these examples, we understand the laws, the mathemathics, and the mix of necessity and randomness that determines the result. There are explicit models, convincing models, for that "emergence". Nothing of that kind is true for consciousness. And so on. b) You say: "I don’t understand what this means." Well, cosnciousness is a fact. We directly perceive ourselves as conscious beings. This is a fact. All other facts, the perception of a tree or of a star, are possible only because we perceive ourselves as conscious, and because therefore we have conscious represenattions of the world. That's why I say that: "consciousness is a fact, and it precedes, in our reconstruction of reality, the experience of matter and of the outer world." I hope it's clear now. c) I say: "Therefore, consciousness is the “fact of all facts”, and must have an independent reality in our map." You say you don't understand. Well, if we perceive a tree, what do we say? We say that it exists, and we include it in our map of reality. We don't expect to have a theory of trees explained on the basis of, say, stones to admit their independent reality. trees exist. we give them a name, and try to understand what they are and how they in teract with the rest of reality. The same must be true for consciousness. We perceive consciousness "before" perceiving a tree. It exists. We must include it in our map of reality. It is the fact of facts. d) You say: "You seem to have at least an implicit dualist model in which a chooser (Entity A) makes a selection from options offered by Entity B (the brain?)" No, I have a model where a subject (the I) express itself through a complex interface (mind and brain/body) which works in both directions, an interface that it perceives and by which it is influenced, and which it can to a point influence. Like in a videogame, just to understand. Now, when we are very intrigued by a videogame, we become very much identified with the interface. But if we "were" the interface, there would be no game: like when a demo rolls on, and you cannot intervene. When we play at a game, we cannot do everything (unless we cheat). And what we can do at any moment is strongly influenced, and limited, by how we have played previously. But still we can originally influence the game, at any moment. But there is no doubt that a strong reciprocity exists, at any moment, between the interface (the game) and the subject(the player). e) I don't like Dennett. He is smart, but I don't believe he uses his smartness correctly. f) Let's go to responsibility, and to the sad story of the father and child. I am sorry to say that a similar story recently happened here in Italy. Well, I don't understand the point. Responsibility does not mean that we are responsible of anything which happens as direct or indirect consequence of all that we do. That would be true only if ous actions were completely free, and if we were omniscient and omnipotent. I have never thought that, and I donìt think that amy serious defender of libertarian free will ever has. So, what does responsibility mean? I think it is a very positive concept, rather than a harbinger of sin and gult. Responsibility means that we are free in the measure that we can "influence" our destiny. Sometimes we can influence it very little at present, but the cumulative action of good use of free will can build important results, in time. That's why we must never judge others (a concept which is well expressed in many religious paths). We cannot understand. We are not aware of the true context. But we can inspire others to change, if we believe, and make them believe, that they can change for the better. Gradually, patiently. Because it is true that they can change. Because, however difficult their present condition may be. they still have free will, and can gradually change it. In the same way, we should not judge ourselves. We cannot understand. We don't know the true context. But, at the same time, we have the duty and the privilege to know that we are free, that we can change for the better. Whatever our condition is. g) You say: "I think we already have AI robots that are conscious of something extremely simple." I don't agree. Is that just your imagination? Have you any evidence? When one is conscious, one is conscious. One has conscious representations. Dim or vivid, but conscious. It is not a problem of complexity. We can have very deep and intense and meaningful representations which are extremely simple. Love, especially when it is deep and pure, is very simple. Pain can be very simple, anr yet excruciating and terrible. A mathemathical demonstration can be boring and unimportant for the student who goes through it. Where are your conscious robots? Why do you believe they are cosncious? Is that a just so story? h) You say: "And, I would argue, that the “sum of parts” is an inadequate description of the whole. " But consciousness is radically different. It is based on simplicity, on oneness. The I us a point that perceives, not a complex structure. The simple I percieves complex structures, may even identify with them. But, at any moment, the subject can "recede" at a metalevel, and what seemed to be part of the I becomes something observed by the I. But the I is always there, still perceiving. well, I believe that's enough. Good night :)gpuccio
July 16, 2011
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vjtorley:
That’s why I reject Cartesian substance dualism in favor of what Elizabeth has dubbed “I-body” dualism.
And I reject "I-body" dualism for the same reason as I reject particle-wave dualism :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 16, 2011
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So would you say that a person is like the Trinity, consisting of two distinguishable parts which are still wholly one being? I'm not that familiar with Descartes, but I sort of doubt that Descartes was saying the mind and body were not both part of a singular human being.tragic mishap
July 16, 2011
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tragic mishap (#26) In response to your question: I don't think Cartesian substance dualism does justice to the unity of the human person. Mind and body are not two things; each of us is one being. That's why I reject Cartesian substance dualism in favor of what Elizabeth has dubbed "I-body" dualism.vjtorley
July 16, 2011
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gpuccio:
Elizabeth: I apprciate your post, but I am confused. You say you are a monist. That can be OK for me, but what kind of monist? Are you a materialist monist? The I you speak of, what kind of entity is it for you?
As I've said before, I try to avoid labels where possible, because of the baggage they tend to have attached to them! By monist, I mean I mean I don't think that we consist of a soul + body. I think it's different aspects of the same thing.
If you are a materialist monist, then I suppose the the I you speak of must be some formal property of assembled matter, maybe an “emergent property” (a concept, I am afraid, that I really detest). Is that your position?
Well, probably. Why do you "detest" it?
May I ask why you changed your mind? Now I have not the time to look at your referenced blog, but maybe a short summary from you could help.
The blog posts themselves are quite short. I'm not sure I could do it again in less.
I am not interested in monist-dualist debate.
OK.
I try to stay empirical.
Well, me too.
For me, as I have said, consciousness is a fact, and it precedes, in our reconstruction of reality, the experience of matter and of the outer world.
I don't understand what this means.
Therefore, consciousness is the “fact of all facts”, and must have an independent reality in our map.
Nor this, probably because I can't parse your premise.
Your “reconstruction” of my thought is fine, except that it apparently becomes contradictory at a specific point: “Different choices avaliable at each moment to an individual” that’s a fine start: different choices “are available”: the individual can choose, if words still mean anything.
Yes indeed.
“may be intuitively “felt” implicitly by the individual as better, or worse” OK “or much more explicitly reasoned, using language to articulate the alternatives (vocally or subvocally)” Maybe not exactly what I think. The role of reason, for me, is more in presenting the choices, so that the individual may choose. Given the choices, given the influence ot reason or of other inner faculties, in the end the individual can still choose: and his inner, intuitive moral conscience is the only faculty that feels if the choice, whatever it is, is good or bad. Anyay, let’s go on to the most important point: “At a neural level, this arises from competition between networks implicated in executing alternative courses of actions, the simulation of their consequences, and the feeding back of those simulated consequences as inhibitory or excitatory input into the competing networks.” This is the point. Yje neural activity “preceding” the choice is in the end only one of the “previous states” tha influence the choice, without determining it. Let’s see the following sentence: “The chosen action is the one that corresponds to the “winning” network.” No. Here our views differ radically. There is no winning network.
Well, neurally there is :)
There is, of possible winning networks, one that wins because “the individual”, the “I”, chooses to let it win.
And I'm saying that the way that choosing operates is via competition between networks. This is where the monist-dualist distinction cuts in. You seem to have at least an implicit dualist model in which a chooser (Entity A) makes a selection from options offered by Entity B (the brain?) I'm uniting that into a single model, whereby the winning action is the one that receives the most exitatory input, and that input includes all kinds of factors including the simulation of the moral consequences of each action. In the end, though, both yours and mine are models, and yours in many ways is the more efficient model for daily use. However, as a brain scientist I need one that maps better on to what we know about the brain. And the one I have seems to do so without losing the essentials of the dualist model - we still have a chooser, but instead of splitting the roles between the presentation of options and the selection of options, the two processes are intimately interlinked via excitatory and inhibitory neural connections, and an iterative process from which the choice emerges. In other words, you assign to the "I" only the selection part; I assign to the "I" both the option-presenting part and the selection part, the two being close-coupled into a single, iterative, re-entrant mechanism. Like you, I am an empiricist, and this is what the data indicate. My larger point, though, is that is neither "reductionist" nor "eliminative". It is simply locating agency in a distributed, iterative, re-entrant decision-making system rather than at the top of a hierarchical one.
If the winning of a netwrok were only the result of the competing activity of different neural networks, either by necessity, chance ot a mix of the two, then what meanins have all your talks about the I, the individual, and moral responsibility? You are just confounding the words, like any compatibilist! (Well, that was really a heavy offence, I apologize :) ).
Oh, don't worry, I think I'm already heavily tarred with the compatibilist brush! Well, I'm afraid I can't do better on the subject of moral responsibility than quote Dennett, who, though not himself a neuroscientist, is extremely well informed. He starts his book (Freedom Evolves) with a heart-rending story (I think a true one) of a father who parks his car with his small son on the back seat, meaning to take him into the workplace childcare centre, as usual, but forgets. When he goes to the childcare centre later to pick up his son, the childcare people say he never dropped him off. He then finds his son, dead, in the hot car in the car park. Horrible story. I just hope it is fiction (but even if so, it could happen so easily). It's a good tale though, for illustrating issues of personal responsibility: "It is time to recall the plight of the hapless father from Chapter 1, who bears responsibility - doesn't he? - for the death of his child. Presumably everybody has a breaking point; those who happen to encounter their personal breaking point break! How can it be fair to hold them responsible and punish them, just bedause some other person wouldn't have broken if faced with exactly their predicament? Isn't he just the victim of bad luck? And isn't it just your good luck not to have succumbed to temptation or had your weaknesses exploited by some conspiracy of events? Yes, luck figures heavily in our lives, all the time,but since we know this, we take the precautions we deem appropriate to minimise the untoward effects of luck, and then take responsibilty for whatever happens. We can note that if he makes himself really small he can externalize this whole episode in his life, almost turning itinto a bad dream, a thing that happend to him,not somethign he did. or he can make himself large, and then face the much more demanding task of constructing a future self that has this terrible act of omission in its biography. It is up to him, but we may hope he gets a little help from his friends. This indeed an opportunity for a Self-Forming Action...." Dennett, in other words, ingeniously, and absolutely rightly, IMO, equates the formation of the self with the act of taking responsibility. As he says: "if we make ourselves really small, we can externalise virtually anything". Conversely, by defining ourselves as the agent morally responsible for our actions we bring ourselves into being. We "ensoul ourselves" as you might say :)
In a neurat network, there is no I. There is no individual. Only a sum of parts interacting according to laws. There is no freedom, no choice, no consciousness.
Depends on the network. And, I would argue, that the "sum of parts" is an inadequate description of the whole. I've made this point a few times - there are a large number of non-controversial examples of where a "sum of parts" omits the properties of the whole. The parts of a neural network certainly have nothing corresponding to "I". But that does not mean that the whole may not. And, in the case of the almost unimaginably complex neural networks that comprise a human brain, I think it does. At least, I don't see why it shouldn't.
Do you really believe, like the AI guys, that if you simulate the software running in neurons, consciousness will arise?
Well, as I've said elsewhere, I don't myself think it make sense to talk about consciousness without saying what the entity concerned is supposed to be conscious of. I think we already have AI robots that are conscious of something extremely simple. But if we ask ourselves "what would it be like to be that robot" the answer would have to be: "not much". For an AI robot to have anything resembling even animal consciousness, let alone human consciousness and moral responsibility, the thing would have to be complex beyond our wildest imaginings. And I think the only way we could ever achieve it would be a) using nanotechnology (to make it small enough to be mobile) and b) using evolutionary algorithms. But then we have those robots already - they are called us :)
No. Never has it arisen that way, and never will. Consciousness just exists, it does not arise from assembled parts of matter.
I disagree. I think we are assembled parts of matter, and we are conscious. I don't think our conscious capacity arises from anything other than our assembled parts. But that is not (to repeat myself!) to say reduce our selves to our assembled parts, nor is it to say that we do not exist as agents or that we are not conscious. It is simply to say that our existence as autonomous moral agents is a property of the vastly complex and interactive arrangement of material of which we consist. It is not a property of any of our parts.
If we have to be monists, let’s cosnciousness be our substance. Of it, and only of it, we are really sure.
Well, it's an attractive model, but I don't think it maps on to our data terribly well.Elizabeth Liddle
July 16, 2011
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tragic mishap: Because consciousness is perceived in ourselves, and therefore is a fact. If we derive our description of conscious processes and their properties from our experience, and try to connect those properties to other parts of our experience (interaction with the outer world), we are really working on an empirical basis. For example, I have defined dFSCI in a completely empirical way, using the empirical concept of a conscious intelligent being both to define design and to define functional specification, two key steps of my definition. And yet, no metaphisical theory of consciousness is required for that, only the practical acceptance of the fact that conscious intelligent agents exist, that they can be observed either directly (inwardly) or indirectly, that conscious processes can be described and that common words we use (meaning, purpose, function) have a well defined correspondence with specific observed subjective conscious representations, while they cannot be defined objectively in any way. This is all empirical, for me. Observed facts, and reasonable inferences on the observed facts. The only important point is that I include consciousness and its representations in the observed facts. And I am very happy with that.gpuccio
July 16, 2011
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gpuccio:
I try to stay empirical. For me, as I have said, consciousness is a fact, and it precedes, in our reconstruction of reality, the experience of matter and of the outer world.
Does not compute. How is a metaphysical argument from consciousness empirical?tragic mishap
July 16, 2011
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Elizabeth: I apprciate your post, but I am confused. You say you are a monist. That can be OK for me, but what kind of monist? Are you a materialist monist? The I you speak of, what kind of entity is it for you? If you are a materialist monist, then I suppose the the I you speak of must be some formal property of assembled matter, maybe an "emergent property" (a concept, I am afraid, that I really detest). Is that your position? May I ask why you changed your mind? Now I have not the time to look at your referenced blog, but maybe a short summary from you could help. I am not interested in monist-dualist debate. I try to stay empirical. For me, as I have said, consciousness is a fact, and it precedes, in our reconstruction of reality, the experience of matter and of the outer world. Therefore, consciousness is the "fact of all facts", and must have an independent reality in our map. Your "reconstruction" of my thought is fine, except that it apparently becomes contradictory at a specific point: "Different choices avaliable at each moment to an individual" that's a fine start: different choices "are available": the individual can choose, if words still mean anything. "may be intuitively “felt” implicitly by the individual as better, or worse" OK "or much more explicitly reasoned, using language to articulate the alternatives (vocally or subvocally)" Maybe not exactly what I think. The role of reason, for me, is more in presenting the choices, so that the individual may choose. Given the choices, given the influence ot reason or of other inner faculties, in the end the individual can still choose: and his inner, intuitive moral conscience is the only faculty that feels if the choice, whatever it is, is good or bad. Anyay, let's go on to the most important point: "At a neural level, this arises from competition between networks implicated in executing alternative courses of actions, the simulation of their consequences, and the feeding back of those simulated consequences as inhibitory or excitatory input into the competing networks." This is the point. Yje neural activity "preceding" the choice is in the end only one of the "previous states" tha influence the choice, without determining it. Let's see the following sentence: "The chosen action is the one that corresponds to the “winning” network." No. Here our views differ radically. There is no winning network. There is, of possible winning networks, one that wins because "the individual", the "I", chooses to let it win. If the winning of a netwrok were only the result of the competing activity of different neural networks, either by necessity, chance ot a mix of the two, then what meanins have all your talks about the I, the individual, and moral responsibility? You are just confounding the words, like any compatibilist! (Well, that was really a heavy offence, I apologize :) ). In a neurat network, there is no I. There is no individual. Only a sum of parts interacting according to laws. There is no freedom, no choice, no consciousness. Do you really believe, like the AI guys, that if you simulate the software running in neurons, consciousness will arise? No. Never has it arisen that way, and never will. Consciousness just exists, it does not arise from assembled parts of matter. If we have to be monists, let's cosnciousness be our substance. Of it, and only of it, we are really sure.gpuccio
July 16, 2011
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gpuccio: Thank you for your direction to this post from the other thread. In some ways what you write below conforms very precisely to the view I held until about three years ago (which is why I take full responsibility for my current views! Yes, they were changed during the course of discussion with others, but no-one coshed me in a back alley and force-fed me with "eliminative materialism" - I simply considered alternative arguments and found myself persuaded. The record, if you are interested, can be found here: http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showthread.php?p=4518826#post4518826 (but it's a very long thread! - the Damascene moment is here: http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives/showpost.php?p=4578996&postcount=696) (not sure whether you have to be logged in to view - if so, I will repost the relevant posts here). And to make it completely clear here as well: I do not deny the existence of "I". In fact the only thing I have "eliminated" is duality. I find that everything can be perfectly well accommodated in a monist model, including free will.
c) Quantum indeterminism is, at present, the best “window” we have (given our scientific understanding of these things, which is certain ly rough) to “join” strict determinism and free will of agents. d) The way the agent (my “transcendental I”) influences outer events is anyway still a big mystery. e) There is no doubt that both outer and inner previous states (including character etc.) influence (but do not dtermine) free will. My idea is that precious states (the total sun up of them, including all our personal past and therefore our previous exercise of our free will) determine the “range” of choice we have in each single situation: what I call the “level of freedom” of each individual at each time. IOWs, all individuals have free will, but each one has different levels of freedom (can act from different ranges of options).
If you do get access to the first post in my IIDB thread (entitled "why I am a theist"), you may recognise your own views in mine :) I'll be interested to see what you make of them (though I no longer hold them). However, my current views pretty well resemble what you state below, except that I would recast them in monist terms.
f) The final point, and IMO the most important one, is the following: free choices not only are not determined, not only are not random. They are not “neutral”. IOWs, different free choices in each individual situation have different “moral” values for the individual, and affect differently his personal future. IOWs, different choices avaliable at each moment to an individual are intuitively “felt” by the individual’s consciousness as connected to a moral “field”: some of them are better, some of them are worse. Reason has a role in that, but I believe that it is not the only factor, and that the final property of “moral conscience” is essentially intuitive, and directly perceived by the transcendental I. That “moral” property of free choices is the natural basis of responsibility, and is the reason why our present use (good or bad) of free will influences our future “level of freedom”: good choices increse our level of freedom, bad choices reduce it.
Let me try to phrase the above in my own terms: "Free choices cannot be not determined by solely by proximal factors, nor by random (e.g. quantum) factors. Neither kind of choice could be said to be free - the first because the action would be entirely predictable given a handful of local immediate factors, the second because it excludes the agent we are interested in (someone who tosses a coin to make a decision has delegated the decision making to the coin). For a choice to be both free, and informed, it must also be determined by consideration of the long-term (i.e. distal) effects of the chosen action not only on ourselves but on others. In other words those actions are not morally “neutral”. Different choices avaliable at each moment to an individual may be intuitively “felt” implicitly by the individual as better, or worse, or much more explicitly reasoned, using language to articulate the alternatives (vocally or subvocally). At a neural level, this arises from competition between networks implicated in executing alternative courses of actions, the simulation of their consequences, and the feeding back of those simulated consequences as inhibitory or excitatory input into the competing networks. The chosen action is the one that corresponds to the "winning" network. Whether this choice is reached implicitly ("intuitively") or explicitly (reasoned), the agent responsible for decision is perceived as the self, and referred to, in language, by the first person pronoun. Thus the referent for the word "I" (in English) is a "transcendent" entity - an entity with properties quite different from, and much more widely effective than, those of any of the subprocesses from which it arises, and capable of free (i.e. unconstrained by immediacy) volitional (i.e. not delegated to some quantum coin tosser) moral (i.e. made with consideration of the long-term constraints the action may place both ourselves and others) choice. That “moral” property of free choices is the natural basis of responsibility, and is the reason why our present use (good or bad) of free will influences our future “level of freedom”: good choices increse our level of freedom, bad choices reduce it." Note that I have left your final sentence untouched :) There is much, in other words, on which we agree. The only disagreement is how we get there :)
Elizabeth Liddle
July 16, 2011
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Mung: "So, how is it that anything but libertarian free will is even possible?" Or -- So, how is it that anything but [living entities (*) ] is even possible? (*) by 'living entities', I am not limiting the question to biological entities.Ilion
July 15, 2011
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Well ... there goes the neighborhood.Ilion
July 15, 2011
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I would like to compliment everyone involved for sustaining such a high level discussion. I think, though, that a key point needs to be articulated, albeit in an abbreviated fashion: With libertarian free will, our choices influence our destiny. With compatibilism, they do not. Compatibilism, like determinism, teaches that a man cannot live a purpose-driven life, although he can, as the story goes, be “free” insofar as no human agent interferes with his pre-determined choices. To say, though, a man can be nature’s plaything and also be free is obviously ridiculous. Legitimate free will, on the other hand, allows us to do the things that really matter—to set a concrete goal and achieve it, to build character or not build character, to support good causes and fight evil causes, to love or not love—to do anything that really matters.StephenB
July 15, 2011
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