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How Some Materialists are Blinded by Their Faith Commitments

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Every once in a while we get one of those “aha moments” when everything comes together.  Phillip Johnson helped me to one of those moments over 20 years ago when I read this passage from an article in First Things (when that journal still permitted dissenting voices to be heard):

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter.  We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.  That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”

Aha!  If Darwinism or something like it must be true as a matter of deduction from materialism, then evidence takes a back seat.  Dawkins once said he would prefer Darwinism even if there were no evidence to support it.  That is hard to understand until one understands Johnson’s point.

I thought about this today when a friend reminded me of this quote from Nobel laureate Jacques Monod:

“We call these [mutations] accidental; we say that they are random occurrences. And since they constitute the only possible source of modifications in the genetic text, itself the sole repository of the organisms’ hereditary structure, it necessarily follows that chance alone is at the source of every innovation of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution: this central concept of modern biology is no longer one among other possible or even conceivable hypotheses. It is today the sole conceivable hypothesis.”

Seriously?  No other explanation is even “conceivable”?  I can understand how someone could consider the evidence and reject ID.  I would believe they are mistaken, but not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion as I do.  I get that.  But to say that ID is not even “conceivable”?  Well, that’s just plain stupid.  Why would Monod, obviously not a stupid man, say something so dumb?  His faith commitments blinded him and stunted his imagination.  A dogmatic commitment to materialist metaphysics makes even very smart people literally blind to alternatives.  And it makes them say stupid things.

Another example:  Paraphrasing Hawking:  Because there is something, the universe can create itself from nothing.

Comments
EugeneS - if codes don't educe to chemistry, how come DNA transcription reduces to chemistry? Why does it matter if a code (or cipher) is arbitrary with respect to physics? As long as the evolution of the code is possible within physics, I don't see why there can't be some level of arbitrariness.Bob O'H
March 30, 2018
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Bob Code by definition does not reduce to chemistry. Semiosis by definition is sign processing. Sign processing assumes there is a non-physical protocol, i.e. code, logical correspondence or a mapping between the sign and its meaning (i.e. the physical effect evoked by the sign in the system). The mapping is compatible with (permitted by) the laws of nature but arbitrary in relation to them.
Hoffmeyer & Emeche (1991)*: "No natural law restricts the possibility-space of a written (or spoken) text". Kull (1999)*: "Semiotic interactions do not take place of physical necessity". Howard Pattee ("Irreducible and complementary semiotic forms"): Laws are valued because they express the maximum possible regularity of events. Symbols, by contrast, are valued as information carriers, and information capacity is measured by the minimum regularity of events.[...] The most convincing general argument for this irreducible complementarity of dynamical laws and measurement structures comes again from von Neumann (Neumann 1955). He calls the system being measured, S, and the measuring device, M, that must provide the initial conditions for the dynamic laws of S. Since M is also a physical system obeying the same laws as S, we may try a unified description by considering the combined physical system (S+M). But then we will need a new measuring device, M', to provide the initial conditions for a larger system (S+M). This leads to an infinite regress; but the main point is that even though any measuring device, M, can in principle be described by the universal laws, the fact is that if you choose to do so you will lose the function of M as a measuring device. This demonstrates that laws cannot describe the semantic function of measurement even if they can correctly and completely describe the physics of the measuring device.
See here for the references. Does the meaning of the posts you write here reduce to chemistry?! Think of it yourself...EugeneS
March 30, 2018
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Bob:
Right, and that reduces down to chemistry, doesn’t it? We know how the sequence of bases in DNA codes for proteins, and it’s all biochemistry.
Codes are not reducible to chemistry. Codes are arbitrary meaning they are not determined by physics or chemistry. That's the point. Error correction, proof reading, editing, DNA repair, splicing- none of it is reducible to chemistry. If it was then when we synthesized the exact molecules and put them together it would all just happen. Yet it doesn't. So either the scientists are stupid or it isn't reducible to chemistryET
March 30, 2018
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You started off saying everything in biology reduces to chemistry, right?
Yes.
... People here, including myself, pointed you to the evidence
of semiosis as an objective phenomenon. As an example of it, I pointed you to the objectively existing message processing in organisms.
Right, and that reduces down to chemistry, doesn't it? We know how the sequence of bases in DNA codes for proteins, and it's all biochemistry. So, what was your point about semiosis?
Bob O'H
March 30, 2018
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Bob You started off saying everything in biology reduces to chemistry, right? In an attempt to show you this is not the case, I mentioned chess because this simple example illustrates the essence of what is going on in living systems. People here, including myself, pointed you to the evidence of semiosis as an objective phenomenon. As an example of it, I pointed you to the objectively existing message processing in organisms. In response, you claimed that information was just a human idea. Your position is untenable. Anyhow, I hope you can see it's nothing personal :)EugeneS
March 30, 2018
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ET (and Bob O'H): "Information is not a state of mind." Of course. In particular, functional information is any specific configuration which allows to implement a function by the object where the configuration is found. That seems a rather objective thing: given an object with some configuration, you either can implement the defined function or not. What has that to do with "states of mind"?gpuccio
March 30, 2018
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EugeneS @ 200 - You accuse me of changing the subject, and then accuse me of not accepting the objectivity of semiosis, when I had never even mentioned it!Bob O'H
March 30, 2018
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Bob O'H: "Hopefully, then, we agree: “information” is part of that language, which is all my point has been, and that one shouldn’t mistake a map for the landscape." A map is never the landscape. And all that we know, all our science, our philosophy and every rational cognition are just maps. All of them. So, why this special emphasis for information as a map? All science is a map.gpuccio
March 30, 2018
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good grief Damn the torpedoes Bob, no matter how utterly stupid it isUpright BiPed
March 30, 2018
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Bob is clinging to his religion. Andrewasauber
March 30, 2018
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Information is not a state of mind.ET
March 30, 2018
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Sorry Bob, "which is all my point has been," No. You are changing the subject from "it's all chemistry" to discussing stuff irrelevant here such as scientific definitions. The real point is your unwillingness to accept the objectivity of semiosis. A map is of course not the landscape. However, denying that the landscape exists will not get you anywhere even with the best map possible.EugeneS
March 30, 2018
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Eugene @ 197 -
Like I said, science is out there in order to describe, in its own language, of course – objective phenomena.
Hopefully, then, we agree: "information" is part of that language, which is all my point has been, and that one shouldn't mistake a map for the landscape.Bob O'H
March 30, 2018
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UB @ 195 -
(pssst Bob, you’ve now put yourself in the position of arguing that “representations” actually exist in nature, but not “information”, because “information” is just a human concept that doesan’t actually exists, whereas “representation” is not just a human concept, but something that actually exists. In other words, you should probably just stop arguing this point altogether.)
I have never said that human concepts don't actually exist: both the representation and information exist in the sense that they are states of mind. If it helps, think about Magritte's famous painting that isn't a pipe.Bob O'H
March 30, 2018
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Bob "hm, you’re still not dealing with the issue" There is no issue, Bob. It is a lack of understanding or (after your post 180) a desire to engage in word games on your part, I'm afraid. Like I said, science is out there in order to describe, in its own language, of course - objective phenomena. There would be absolutely no point in it otherwise. Semiosis is an objective phenomenon, whether we like it or not. Before Claud Shannon came up with his theory of communication, DNA in living systems contained a message, a series of instructions for the massively parallel ribosomal processor how to synthesize specific proteins. It would contain a message even if we, humans, were unaware of it.EugeneS
March 30, 2018
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LoL1 @ Bob- True, Bob, rabbits do not know the word "information". But they still use it to live or die. They are still made up of it.ET
March 30, 2018
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Bob #194 eh ... so it exists, right? Right. - - - - - - - - - (pssst Bob, you've now put yourself in the position of arguing that "representations" actually exist in nature, but not "information", because "information" is just a human concept that doesan't actually exists, whereas "representation" is not just a human concept, but something that actually exists. In other words, you should probably just stop arguing this point altogether.)Upright BiPed
March 30, 2018
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UB @ 189 -
Exactly, it is created by the specialized organization of the rabbit’s eyes, and therefore it exists regardless of human conceptions. Information exist as a representation of the hawk,
No, the representation of the hawk is created by the rabbit, with no reference to "information". But we (humans) call that "information". We interpret that representation as information.Bob O'H
March 30, 2018
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Eric Anderson:
It is incredibly unhelpful to the entire discussion to conflate the two. I’m not sure why this is hard to acknowledge.
I thought I had made it clear there is a difference. That is what CSI is all about- to differentiate between the information in a crystal (not CSI) and genomes (full of CSI) - for example. In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. Dr OrgelET
March 29, 2018
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ET @188:
Information would still exist even if we didn’t. Without information there wouldn’t be any organisms. But yes “information” is a human word we invented. Everything the word describes is real and not abstract.
Well said.Eric Anderson
March 29, 2018
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ET:
And I have already covered 2 and 3.
By covered, I presume you mean you follow #2 and reject #3? So in the case of #2, let's acknowledge that Seversy's complaint was a fair point: talking about "information in everything" just confuses the conversation and detracts from the very point ID is trying to make about information in something like DNA: namely, that it is fundamentally different from whatever imagined information we may think is in a rock. It is incredibly unhelpful to the entire discussion to conflate the two. I'm not sure why this is hard to acknowledge.
I have already said- the information as to its formation. Read Dembski and Gitt
Please. It's pretty rich of you to suggest this. I'm quite familiar with Bill's work and with Gitt, and could even give Gitt a h/t for getting me thinking through the very point I've been addressing. What is less clear is why you seem uninterested in learning more about the topic by deeply thinking through some of the key questions I've posed, and instead just keep restating the claim that information is in everything. There is a key nuance that is being missed. And will continue to be missed until you are willing to think through the questions I've posed. I think we agree on much, and I apologize if my tone above seems exasperated. But I think we are largely in agreement on much, so I sincerely hope you will give me the courtesy, not necessarily on this thread, but perhaps in the coming days and weeks on your own time, to carefully think through what I've been sharing.Eric Anderson
March 29, 2018
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you’ve not even attempted to refute my suggestion that information is a human concept that we use to understand the world. “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." C Hitchens
ET
March 29, 2018
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UB: If a rabbit looks up to see a hawk circling above, it does not have a circling hawk traveling through its optical nerves to its visual cortex – it has a representation of a hawk (i.e. information) instantiated in a pattern of neural impulse; transcribed from the environment by the specialized organization of its eyes, to be interpreted by constraints that are in place in its brain which will translate that pattern into a life-saving dash to the nearest burrow. Bob'O: Yes, a rabbit has a representation of a hawk, not the hawk. So the information isn’t “in” the hawk, it’s created (from the sensory inputs) by the rabbit.
Exactly, it is created by the specialized organization of the rabbit's eyes, and therefore it exists regardless of human conceptions. Information exist as a representation of the hawk, and when it reaches the cortex and brain of the rabbit, it will excite additional information, such as "increase your breathing" and "pump your feet at a time like this".
But the rabbit doesn’t start calculating sum_i p_i log p_i: that’s something we humans do as a sophisticated way of representing other types of input.
Irrelevant. What humans attempt to do in order to measure information doesn't change the fact that it exists in reality. Rabbits don't ponder electromagnetic force either, shall we say that it doesn't exist either?Upright BiPed
March 29, 2018
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Bob:
you’ve not even attempted to refute my suggestion that information is a human concept that we use to understand the world.
Information would still exist even if we didn't. Without information there wouldn't be any organisms. But yes "information" is a human word we invented. Everything the word describes is real and not abstract.ET
March 29, 2018
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EugeneS - hm, you're still not dealing with the issue - you've not even attempted to refute my suggestion that information is a human concept that we use to understand the world.Bob O'H
March 29, 2018
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Bob Frankly, before your post 180, I was inclined to give your line of reasoning more credit than it really deserves. #180 is an unfair one to me. Do you really suggest UB, myself or anyone else who talks about semiosis as an objective phenomenon which biosystems exhibit and which science can help identify, thinks that a rabbit has a concept of Shannon information? I mean, really?! I am disappointed...EugeneS
March 29, 2018
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Bob, You are obviously confused. Just because we can describe something does not mean it is reducible to chemistry. Then why don’t the synthesized chemicals that mimic exactly those found in living organisms, do these things?ET
March 29, 2018
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ET - please, read a biochemistry textbook. Or even read Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading_(biology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_repair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_splicingBob O'H
March 29, 2018
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What? Then why don't the synthesized chemicals that mimic exactly those found in living organisms, do these things? Please reference the paper or papers that support your claim.ET
March 29, 2018
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ET @ 181 - But proof-reading, error-correction, editing and splicing are reducible to chemistry. We know because biochemists have actually shown this.Bob O'H
March 29, 2018
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