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Human Consciousness

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(From In the Beginning … ):

For the layman, it is the last step in evolution that is the most difficult to explain. You may be able to convince him that natural selection can explain the appearance of complicated robots, who walk the Earth and write books and build computers, but you will have a harder time convincing him that a mechanical process such as natural selection could cause those robots to become conscious. Human consciousness is in fact the biggest problem of all for Darwinism, but it is hard to say anything “scientific” about consciousness, since we don’t really know what it is, so it is also perhaps the least discussed.

Nevertheless, one way to appreciate the problem it poses for Darwinism or any other mechanical theory of evolution is to ask the question: is it possible that computers will someday experience consciousness? If you believe that a mechanical process such as natural selection could have produced consciousness once, it seems you can’t say it could never happen again, and it might happen faster now, with intelligent designers helping this time. In fact, most Darwinists probably do believe it could and will happen—not because they have a higher opinion of computers than I do: everyone knows that in their most impressive displays of “intelligence,” computers are just doing exactly what they are told to do, nothing more or less. They believe it will happen because they have a lower opinion of humans: they simply dumb down the definition of consciousness, and say that if a computer can pass a “Turing test,” and fool a human at the keyboard in the next room into thinking he is chatting with another human, then the computer has to be considered to be intelligent, or conscious. With the right software, my laptop may already be able to pass a Turing test, and convince me that I am Instant Messaging another human. If I type in “My cat died last week” and the computer responds “I am saddened by the death of your cat,” I’m pretty gullible, that might convince me that I’m talking to another human. But if I look at the software, I might find something like this:

if (verb == ‘died’)
fprintf(1,’I am saddened by the death of your %s’,noun)
end

I’m pretty sure there is more to human consciousness than this, and even if my laptop answers all my questions intelligently, I will still doubt there is “someone” inside my Intel processor who experiences the same consciousness that I do, and who is really saddened by the death of my cat, though I admit I can’t prove that there isn’t.

I really don’t know how to argue with people who believe computers could be conscious. About all I can say is: what about typewriters? Typewriters also do exactly what they are told to do, and have produced some magnificent works of literature. Do you believe that typewriters can also be conscious?

And if you don’t believe that intelligent engineers could ever cause machines to attain consciousness, how can you believe that random mutations could accomplish this?

Comments
jstanley, it is perfectly clear that the point you make in 116/119 is completely lost on mark. mark, its a scholarly neurosis, you should have it looked after.Upright BiPed
September 10, 2010
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bornagain77: There is indeed an ongoing real-world situation in which an application of my illustration is anything but absurd. Namely, how banks worldwide are being allowed by their governments to mark their non-performing assets. Which according to the mathematical axioms of those governments, they are being allowed to mark as if they were performing. Those non-performing assets have already come down once on the financial system like a sledgehammer. If because of the flawed mathematical axioms with which they are being dealt with, they come down a second time in the same manner, the real-world results will be anything but trivial. (See Karl Denninger's A Round-Up Of Current Idiocy for more information.)jstanley01
September 10, 2010
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LOL Stephen and jstanley01,, Hey, I found a place where the banks use 'flexible axioms': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpJQ-HX3F8gbornagain77
September 10, 2010
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#119 thru #121 But surely this is the point. Integer arithmetic as normally practiced is a really useful tool for discrete objects like money. It works less well for adding wind speeds together. An arithmetic that defines the addition operation with a weird exception is virtually no use. None of this shows that the axioms of integer arithmetic are necessarily true in any deep sense. They happen to be true of discrete objects.markf
September 10, 2010
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Bank Teller follow up: "Of course I also dispute the law of non-contradiction." It is entirely possible that I gave you the wrong amoung of change and that I also didn't." Therefore, your accusations are both true and false and I am both guilty and not guilty of withholding the proper amount."StephenB
September 10, 2010
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---"Group Theorist: “Hold on a sec. I am not sure why, but this doesn’t look right. I think I need to call my philosopher.” Bank Teller: "There are no objective matematical laws. According to your axioms, subjectively conceived, I didn't give you back enough change, but according to my axioms, subjectively conceived, I did. Now run along."StephenB
September 10, 2010
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Bank Teller: "And here is your change: One, two, three, one hundred and forty-seven." Group Theorist: "Hold on a sec. I am not sure why, but this doesn't look right. I think I need to call my philosopher." ...sorry...jstanley01
September 10, 2010
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---BarryR: "If you prefer to think of this as a mathematical law — one may choose one’s axioms — it’s perfectly permissible for you to do so." You are contraditing yourself again. A law, by definition, is a universally binding principle. An axiom, the way you are using it, is personal and individual. If logic and mathematics have laws, those laws can be violated and the violator can be in error. If logic and mathematics are individually conceived, there is no universal standard by which one can be said to be in error. By arguing that logic and mathematics have no rules, you are arguing that no one can, in fact, be wrong. At most, one could be internally inconsistent. Thus, by declaring that your adversaries are wrong about math and logic, you refute your own philosophy with every correspondence.StephenB
September 10, 2010
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gpuccio@113
You have often referred to peer reviewed philosophical literature. What are the principles according to which a paper is peer reviewed?
You'd have to ask a philosopher. I can give you an expert opinion for computer science and an informed opinion for the sciences in general, but I don't know the liberal arts wells enough to be able to summarize how they define quality.
Or are those criteria based, at least in principle, on objective rules (or, if you want, laws, or principles)
No, the process is subjective. In this regard it's no different from the sciences. Given enough time, the subjective opinions of experts will (usually) converge and good works gets published (eventually). If the process were objective, we wouldn't need peer-review --- we'd be able to tell for ourselves when a manuscript was of high enough quality to warrant publication, and the review process would only involve making sure the margins and typeface were of the correct sizes.BarryR
September 10, 2010
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Does group theory give any guidance at all about which axioms are the best to use when dealing with a bank teller?jstanley01
September 10, 2010
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kairosfocus@111 You're almost there. Group theory gives us the tools to:
arbitrarily redefine the + operator such that x + x –> 147, is to use the symbol in a radically different and inconsistent way
although the only inconsistency here lies in expectations -- the math is perfectly consistent. The reason that I'm able to this is because "+" is not some universal truth, but rather a well-defined mathematical relation that I'm free to replace with another well-defined mathematical relation. I'm really surprised so many people are having difficulty with this concept. A good middle-school geometry class should have been enough to clue people in that axioms are tools and we're free to pick our tools --- the constraints come with how those tools are able to interact.BarryR
September 10, 2010
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Apologies for replying so late after the conversation has moved on. 10 JDH the ability to disobey the Creator is the essence of consciousness. Otherwise it’s just complicated programming with random choices. 19 jurassicmac your ‘analogy’ is also an “Argument from Incredulity.” As BarryR has it "Arguments from incredulity are almost always arguments from ignorance without the admission of ignorance". Given the background and experience JDH has it seems presumptuous to accuse him of not knowing what he's talking about. I also believe there are certain things that simply can not be coded. My belief is also backed up by years of writing software. how do you know that humans aren’t following their ‘program’? We don't really know with certainty, but I would argue because we sometimes do follow a "program" it's clear that we don't always follow a program. For example, we likely all have a program for getting ourselves from home to work. If home or work changes, it could happen, if we're not paying attention, we find ourselves following the old program. Similarly, anyone who’s ever tried to break a bad habit will know when they are following their “program” and when not. 24 gpuccio Point 3 is well made although I would add that for the analogy of a computer to fit better we need to see that a computer has hardware, software, and a user who causes the software to execute. Sometimes the user is hardly needed so it's easy to imagine that only hardware and software is at work. But other times what the software does changes dramatically based on a prior user action. The reason this whole issue is so tricky is that given _any_ sequence of user actions we can write software to perform those actions. IOW if a user sits down and writes an email with contents X, it would be trivial to then write software to produce X, but the software to produce X would also contain X. The results are the same but the processes are totally different. With consciousness it seems to be that for every conscious decision I make that results in action, the same action could be taken by another man based on habit. But by making a conscious decision I've done something immeasurably different. Based on that here is my attempt at a definition of consciousness. We have a physical nature which sends signals to, and receives signals from, the brain. The brain contains pre-defined sets of instructions which can be issued automatically in response to different kinds of input. Consciousness monitors this input and output and, most importantly, is capable of creating new sets of instructions based on the input and output. Consciousness also senses; that is it senses good and bad. Once created, instructions can be re-used automatically by the brain. I would describe the instructions as CSI and I would describe the ability to create new CSI as the ability which we can not pass on to machines (although I suspect that sensing good and bad is also something we can not pass on). 6 BarryR 'If I were to participate in a Turing test, I’d be asking questions like “Of the two most recent questions you were asked, which was the more difficult to answer and why?”' That is indeed the sort of question to ask in a Turing test. What you would be attempting to do is create a question for which the creator of the machine did not think to provide an answer. That is, a machine may contain in it's software the answer to a billion questions, so the way to defeat it is to create a new question. IOW A human can create CSI to which the only correct response is more CSI. A machine can not create CSI; therefore a machine can not answer such a question unless the answer was pre-programmed.Dunsinane
September 10, 2010
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BarryR: Just a simple question, to understand better your thought. You have often referred to peer reviewed philosophical literature. What are the principles according to which a paper is peer reviewed? I mean, if we agree that not anything deserves to be published in a philosophical journal, are the criteria for peer review only conventional agrrements? In that case, would'nt such a sygstem just enhance conformism, and censor true creativity? Or are those criteria based, at least in principle, on objective rules (or, if you want, laws, or principles), and in that case, what are they, and how are they found, or judged, or shared by the reviewers? Just to know.gpuccio
September 10, 2010
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This may interest some here: Ravi Zacharias addresses an audience at Harvard regarding the law of non-contradiction: Jesus Christ and the Exclusive Claim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szr7hPuh81cbornagain77
September 10, 2010
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F/N: Above BarryR indulges int eh classic fallacy of equivocation. The + operator symbol has a normal meaning in mathematics, and this meaning is what is entailed when we observe that 2 + 2 = 4. To arbitrarily redefine the + operator such that x + x --> 147, is to use the symbol in a radically different and inconsistent way, imposing the result that [2 + 2 = 4] AND [2 + 2 = 157], i.e. we see the contradiction. Since mathematics is fundamentally about reasoning on the implications of structured defined operations on sets and properties of set members, it is accountable to both logic and realities of definable collections of objects. In short, the exercise above is an evasive one. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 10, 2010
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I didn’t see any 2?s there, and I specifically asked you not to change the number 2 into anything else, including symbols.
I apologize. I had made an assumption that you were comfortable with basic algebra and a bit of set theory. This is not the case, and as such there's simply no way you're going to be able to understand the point I'm making. So yes, you are correct that, if you limit yourself to grammar-school arithmetic, 2+2 can only equal 4. You'll have to take it on faith that beyond the walls of grammar schools this is not considered a universal law.
I said all knowledge, that is, things learned, including knowledge of science, requires inference. If inference goes, science goes with it.
If inference goes, your proof that science goes if inferences goes would be the first (and last) thing to go. Inference is just another tool, like logic, math, and experiment. Inferences are often wrong. Logic is often irrelevant, math is often intractable, and don't get me started on experiments. If science required any of these be infallible, it would have disappeared in the 17th C. Because they are only tools, we use the best set of tools for a particular job, and despite the imperfections of our tools, the error bars keep getting smaller. As to Chesterton: I've just read the first 30 pages of _Orthodoxy_. This is philosophy for people who won't read philosophy, written by someone who didn't read philosophy either. As rhetoric, this is good enough to be notable, but compared to contemporaries like Borges, Orwell and Shaw it's frankly quite shallow. For example:
Thus when Mr. H. G. Wells says (as he did somewhere), "All chairs are quite different", he utters not merely a misstatement, but a contradiction in terms. If all chairs were quite different, you could not call them "all chairs."
As wit, this works. As argument, nothing further need be said to dismiss it. If you'd be so kind as to return the favor, please read this 8-page excerpt from Davis and Hersh's _The Mathematical Experience_.BarryR
September 9, 2010
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Barry,
Define G over Z s.t. \forall x \in Z, (x+x)=>147. Or, a bit more verbosely, define a group called G over the integers such that for every element in G, we define the ‘+’ operator such that the operation of adding a number to itself maps to the number 147. Welcome to group theory.
I didn't see any 2's there, and I specifically asked you not to change the number 2 into anything else, including symbols. I noticed you ignored truncating the decimal of pi, also.
Interesting. Assuming that you aren’t asking that I take that on faith, how would you demonstrate this without using inference?
You have to take it on faith at the very bottom. And even if this conclusion were based, itself, on inference, what of it? I said all knowledge, that is, things learned, including knowledge of science, requires inference. If inference goes, science goes with it. Indeed the entire external world goes with it, for the external world is an inferred world.
A citation to the relevant literature will suffice. If Chesterson is the best you can do, then I think I’m going to remain unpersuaded.
I think, based on previous comments, you need to actually read it, not just be given a citation. And this is your response to Chesterton's argument? An ad hominem? You're not going to refute the actual argument? Typical. Pragmatism didn't work as a valid response, and now your ad hominem isn't fairing any better.Clive Hayden
September 9, 2010
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StephenB@107
I thought you said there were no mathematical laws.
I think "thought" is a little strong. In the English-speaking community, "permissible" can mean both positive permission and the absence of prohibition. If you prefer to think of this as a mathematical law --- one may choose one's axioms --- it's perfectly permissible for you to do so.BarryR
September 9, 2010
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---BarryR; "That being said, it’s perfectly permissible to define a group over the integers that’s closed over division, simply by making an arbitrary mapping for the divide-by-zero case." Permissible? I thought you said there were no mathematical laws. Will you ever stop contradicting yourself?StephenB
September 9, 2010
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I think the 'tension' has to do with much of what is going on with the 2 = 2 = 147 fiasco; For one camp math can mean anything you want it to mean and ends up proving just about anything you want to prove, much like string theory and currently Hawking's even more contrived imaginary god of M theory, with scant empirical evidence to back them up,,, and even some strong evidence to go against the conjectures and for the other camp, they realize the truth that a stable universe is impossible unless some mathematical framework is indeed true!: In fact the 'real world' is the bane against these imagined mathematical many world's of M-theory now being touted by Hawking as his god: notes; “The multiverse idea rests on assumptions that would be laughed out of town if they came from a religious text.” Gregg Easterbrook Another escape that materialists have postulated was a slightly constrained 'string-theoretic' multiverse. The following expert shows why the materialistic postulation of 'string theory' is, for all intents and purposes of empirical science, a complete waste of time and energy: Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law: Peter Woit, a PhD. in theoretical physics and a lecturer in mathematics at Columbia, points out—again and again—that string theory, despite its two decades of dominance, is just a hunch aspiring to be a theory. It hasn't predicted anything, as theories are required to do, and its practitioners have become so desperate, says Woit, that they're willing to redefine what doing science means in order to justify their labors. http://www.amazon.com/Not-Even-Wrong-Failure-Physical/dp/0465092756 Though to be fair, a subset of the math of the string hypothesis did get lucky with a interesting 'after the fact' prediction of a already known phenomena: A first: String theory predicts an experimental result: Excerpt: Not to say that string theory has been proved. Clifford Johnson of the University of Southern California, the string theorist on the panel, was very clear about that. http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2009/02/16/a-first-string-theory-predicts-an-experimental-result/ Despite this seemingly successful 'after the fact' prediction/description of a physical phenomena, string theory is suffering severe setbacks in other areas, thus string theory has yet to even establish itself as a legitimate line of inquiry within science. Testing Creation Using the Proton to Electron Mass Ratio Excerpt: The bottom line is that the electron to proton mass ratio unquestionably joins the growing list of fundamental constants in physics demonstrated to be constant over the history of the universe.,,, For the first time, limits on the possible variability of the electron to proton mass ratio are low enough to constrain dark energy models that “invoke rolling scalar fields,” that is, some kind of cosmic quintessence. They also are low enough to eliminate a set of string theory models in physics. That is these limits are already helping astronomers to develop a more detailed picture of both the cosmic creation event and of the history of the universe. Such achievements have yielded, and will continue to yield, more evidence for the biblical model for the universe’s origin and development. http://www.reasons.org/TestingCreationUsingtheProtontoElectronMassRatio As well, even if the whole of string theory were found to be true, it does nothing to help the materialist, and in reality, only adds another level of 'finely tuned complexity' for us to deal with without ever truly explaining the origination of that logically coherent complexity (Logos) of the string theory in the first place. Bruce Gordon, after thorough analysis of the entire string theory framework, states the following conclusion on page 72 of Robert J. Spitzer's book 'New Proofs For The Existence Of God': 'it is clear that the string landscape hypothesis is a highly speculative construction built on shaky assumptions and,,, requires meta-level fine-tuning itself." - Bruce Gordon This following article illustrates just how far string theory would miss the mark of explaining the fine-tuning we see even if it were found to be true: Baron Münchhausen and the Self-Creating Universe: Roger Penrose has calculated that the entropy of the big bang itself, in order to give rise to the life-permitting universe we observe, must be fine-tuned to one part in e10exp(123)?10^10exp(123). Such complex specified conditions do not arise by chance, even in a string-theoretic multiverse with 10^500 different configurations of laws and constants, so an intelligent cause may be inferred. What is more, since it is the big bang itself that is fine-tuned to this degree, the intelligence that explains it as an effect must be logically prior to it and independent of it – in short, an immaterial intelligence that transcends matter, energy and space-time. (of note: 10^10^123 minus 10^500 is still, for all practical purposes, 10^10^123) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/06/baron_munchausen_and_the_selfc.html GRBs Expand Astronomers' Toolbox - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: a detailed analysis of the GRB (Gamma Ray Burst) in question demonstrated that photons of all energies arrived at essentially the same time. Consequently, these results falsify any quantum gravity models requiring the simplest form of a frothy space. http://www.reasons.org/GRBsExpandAstronomersToolbox Systematic Search for Expressions of Dimensionless Constants using the NIST database of Physical Constants Excerpt: The National Institute of Standards and Technology lists 325 constants on their website as ‘Fundamental Physical Constants’. Among the 325 physical constants listed, 79 are unitless in nature (usually by defining a ratio). This produces a list of 246 physical constants with some unit dependence. These 246 physical constants can be further grouped into a smaller set when expressed in standard SI base units.,,, http://www.mit.edu/~mi22295/constants/constants.html “If we modify the value of one of the fundamental constants, something invariably goes wrong, leading to a universe that is inhospitable to life as we know it. When we adjust a second constant in an attempt to fix the problem(s), the result, generally, is to create three new problems for every one that we “solve.” The conditions in our universe really do seem to be uniquely suitable for life forms like ourselves, and perhaps even for any form of organic complexity." Gribbin and Rees, “Cosmic Coincidences”, p. 269 etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
September 9, 2010
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Define G over Z s.t. \forall x \in Z, (x+x)=>147
I am not so certain this has occurred to you, in fact, it seems quite certain that it hasn't - but your work is not "two plus two equalling one-hundred and forty-seven". Perhaps you just got in a hurry, and forgot the question:
Can you make 2+2=147?
If you clear your head, then maybe you can go back and do it again?Upright BiPed
September 9, 2010
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markf@98
I first realised that maths is not a description of some abstract world but a tool when I was introduced to complex numbers. i is an invention not a discovery. Then I gradually realised that is true of all of maths.
There's an interesting tension here. Neoplatonist mathematicians (and they are the majority) believe their mathematics exists a priori and their work consists entirely of mapping out this existing terrain. However, as you point out, to the rest of us it does appear that mathematicians are creating new mathematics and then exploring the consequences of them. I've argued both sides, and I've found both models useful at different times in my own work. What gets folks like CH into trouble is thinking that because they have a firm grasp on arithmetic, they can declare 2+2=4 to be some sort of universal truth. You don't see working mathematicians making this argument --- they know that in some systems this statement is consistent, in other systems it's not, and in still other systems it's simply meaningless. When a mathematician argues for a universal truth, it's usually in the form of entire systems of systems (Turing's solution to the halting problem comes to mind). Given CH's level of mathematical sophistication, I'd rather make the argument for arbitrary axioms using group theory and geometry rather than argue for discovered axioms using nonrecursive functions. So, there are good arguments on both sides; CH just doesn't know where they are.BarryR
September 9, 2010
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CH@91
Show me how it’s done please. Show me how 2+2=147.
Define G over Z s.t. \forall x \in Z, (x+x)=>147. Or, a bit more verbosely, define a group called G over the integers such that for every element in G, we define the '+' operator such that the operation of adding a number to itself maps to the number 147. Welcome to group theory. This particular group isn't very interesting, but neither is it wrong. Once you've chosen your axioms and defined your systems, *then* you can start saying whether or not arbitrary statements can be derived from them. The more common example is parallel lines. You can construct useful geometries where they exist and other useful geometries where they are forbidden. Neither type of system is wrong.
I’d like to see how you can divide by zero, while we’re at it
32-bit computers handle this as follows: define a group G over the rationals F defined by IEEE 754 such that for all x in F, x/0 is defined to be within the range of numbers from 0x07F800000 to 0xFFFFFFFF. That being said, it's perfectly permissible to define a group over the integers that's closed over division, simply by making an arbitrary mapping for the divide-by-zero case. You may have to be clever in order to preserve the other properties of the group that you want to make use of, and I'd consider the IEEE 754 solution to be pretty clever.
I mean, if the particulars of math depend on man’s convention, this should be no problem.
Indeed.
Logic is “nice and useful” makes it sound as if it is not the whole show in science.
I'm glad that came across clearly.
If our ability of inference goes, science goes with it, for all knowledge whatsoever depends on our powers of inference.
Interesting. Assuming that you aren't asking that I take that on faith, how would you demonstrate this without using inference? I think the "all knowledge" bit is going to give you some trouble there. Assuming you're not planning on demonstrating this for every particular bit of knowledge, you're going to need a method to infer from the cases you do prove to the rest of the cases, yet this inferring cannot use inference (otherwise, your conclusion shows your proof is invalid). Didn't /quite/ think that one through, yes?
I really don’t want to have to explain the difference between descriptions of nature and real laws of logic and reason a third time.
A citation to the relevant literature will suffice. If Chesterson is the best you can do, then I think I'm going to remain unpersuaded.BarryR
September 9, 2010
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correction, I mistakenly said that Dr Bradley did not imply that math determined 'reality', when in fact he did make that point in a fairly strong fashion.bornagain77
September 9, 2010
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markf: I am sure Barryr can explain this much better than me – but the point is that you can throw in almost any axiom in mathematics and get consistent results because you also get to define what consistency is. I have to disagree. Non contradiction is fundamental for all historical mthemathics, and Godel still based his fundamental theorem on the concepts of completeness and consistency, relating them in his well known formulation. I am aware that, in the last few decades, some have tried to develop forms of "Inconsistent Mathematics", but again what has not been done by philosophers in the last few decades?gpuccio
September 9, 2010
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markf you state in regards to math, i is an invention not a discovery. Then I gradually realised that is true of all of maths. Actually the square root of negative 1 (i) was developed (invented) to solve problems, I believe, in algebra, but is now known to be essential for describing certain actions in quantum mechanics: Michael Denton - Mathematical Truths Are Transcendent And Beautiful - Square root of -1 is built into the fabric of reality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003918 In fact Dr. Sewell also points out at the end of following audio that Schrodinger's equation is also built into the fabric of reality, as it were, dictating exactly how 'reality' will behave: Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation - Granville Sewell - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012 Dr. Bradley also ways in here, but not to the point of saying that math determines reality: The Underlying Mathematical Foundation Of The Universe -Walter Bradley - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491491 The Five Foundational Equations of the Universe and Brief Descriptions of Each: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfNDdnc3E4bmhkZg&hl=en markf, myself I hold that a line cannot be consistently straight within the space-time of this universe unless the universe is consistently 'geometrically flat, which it is: Did the Universe Hyperinflate? - Hugh Ross - April 2010 Excerpt: Perfect geometric flatness is where the space-time surface of the universe exhibits zero curvature (see figure 3). Two meaningful measurements of the universe's curvature parameter, ½k, exist. Analysis of the 5-year database from WMAP establishes that -0.0170 < ½k < 0.0068.4 Weak gravitational lensing of distant quasars by intervening galaxies places -0.031 < ½k < 0.009.5 Both measurements confirm the universe indeed manifests zero or very close to zero geometric curvature,,, http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate The extraordinary degree of fine-tuning that ensures the universe is consistently flat is of no small wonder. I also hold that a circle could not be consistently round unless the space-time was spherical, which is exactly what it turns out to be: The Known Universe by AMNH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U Again the stunning degree of fine tuning to ensure that the expansion of space-time is spherical is of no small wonder: Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, Thus instead of holding the absurd position of mathematics 'being an invention' instead of a discovery, as you currently do, I hold that 'transcendent math' as laid out by the infinite Mind of God, actually does dictate how 'material' reality will behave. "The reason that mathematics is so effective in capturing, expressing, and modeling what we call empirical reality is that there is a ontological correspondence between the two - I would go so far as to say that they are the same thing." Richard Sternberg - Pg. 8 How My Views On Evolution Evolved In fact, though not proved rigorously yet, I hold that the following equation cannot be true unless this equation actually does dictate how reality is constructed at its most foundational level: Euler's Number - God Created Mathematics - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003905 This following website has the complete working out of the math of Pi and e in the Bible, in the Hebrew and Greek languages respectively, for Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1: http://www.biblemaths.com/pag03_pie/bornagain77
September 9, 2010
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I notice that some bloggers are, once again, trying to argue that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world. On the contrary, a sound premise [one which reflects the real world] followed by valid reasoning [the mind's process faithfully applied] will always lead to a sound conclusion [which also reflects the real world]. Thus, if it appears that the conclusion is not sound, then the premises or the conditions have been changed, morphed, or tampered with.StephenB
September 9, 2010
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#96 Fair enough. I didn't realise he was just saying some things are true by definition. To say "if A is older than B then B is younger than A" is just to say something about the meaning of the words. It says nothing about the world. I thought he was trying to say that "if A is older than B then B will be younger at A necessarily at all times" #97 gpuccio I am sure Barryr can explain this much better than me - but the point is that you can throw in almost any axiom in mathematics and get consistent results because you also get to define what consistency is. I first realised that maths is not a description of some abstract world but a tool when I was introduced to complex numbers. i is an invention not a discovery. Then I gradually realised that is true of all of maths.markf
September 9, 2010
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This is really funny: “We define addition of any two identical integers to be equivalent to 147.” Yes, and we can define consciousness as a third order model, and free will as a form of determinism. What a pity that, at least in mathematics, when you build a system on some arbitrary axioms you need to be careful not to get inconsistent results. What an exaggerated restriciton to our freedom with words...gpuccio
September 9, 2010
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markf,
This is a good example. According to special relativity theory if the ugly sisters went a long way at a very fast speed and returned centuries later they would find Cinderalla had aged a lot more than they had. What appeared to be logically necessary turns out not to be.
Of course what he meant was in the context of the story of Cinderella, where there is no mention of traveling at fast speeds and long distances at that speed. He also knew about the Heisenberg uncertain principle, which bodes even worse for the materialist. "If there are two staring and outstanding facts about science and religion at this particular moment, they are these. First, that science is claiming much less than it did to show us a solid and objective reality. And second, that religion is claiming much more than it did (at least for centuries past) that its miracles and marvels of mystical experience can be proved to exist as a solid and objective reality. On the one side, the Atom has entirely lost the objective solidity it had for the nineteenth-century materialists. On the other side, the Ascension is accepted as a case of Levitation by many who would not accept it as an Ascension. On the one hand, the science of physics has almost become a science of metaphysics. For it is not merely, as is often said, that the Atom has become an abstract mathematical formula; it is almost as true to say that it has become a mere algebraic symbol. For the new physicists tell us frankly that what they describe is not the objective reality of the thing they observe; that they are not examining an object as the nineteenth century materialists thought they were examining an object. Some of them tell us that they are only observing certain disturbances or distortions, actually created by their own attempt to observe. Eddington is more agnostic about the material world than Huxley ever was about the spiritual world. A very unfortunate moment at which to say that science deals directly with reality and objective truth." G. K. Chesterton, The Well and the ShallowsClive Hayden
September 9, 2010
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