Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Human Consciousness

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(From In the Beginning … ):

For the layman, it is the last step in evolution that is the most difficult to explain. You may be able to convince him that natural selection can explain the appearance of complicated robots, who walk the Earth and write books and build computers, but you will have a harder time convincing him that a mechanical process such as natural selection could cause those robots to become conscious. Human consciousness is in fact the biggest problem of all for Darwinism, but it is hard to say anything “scientific” about consciousness, since we don’t really know what it is, so it is also perhaps the least discussed.

Nevertheless, one way to appreciate the problem it poses for Darwinism or any other mechanical theory of evolution is to ask the question: is it possible that computers will someday experience consciousness? If you believe that a mechanical process such as natural selection could have produced consciousness once, it seems you can’t say it could never happen again, and it might happen faster now, with intelligent designers helping this time. In fact, most Darwinists probably do believe it could and will happen—not because they have a higher opinion of computers than I do: everyone knows that in their most impressive displays of “intelligence,” computers are just doing exactly what they are told to do, nothing more or less. They believe it will happen because they have a lower opinion of humans: they simply dumb down the definition of consciousness, and say that if a computer can pass a “Turing test,” and fool a human at the keyboard in the next room into thinking he is chatting with another human, then the computer has to be considered to be intelligent, or conscious. With the right software, my laptop may already be able to pass a Turing test, and convince me that I am Instant Messaging another human. If I type in “My cat died last week” and the computer responds “I am saddened by the death of your cat,” I’m pretty gullible, that might convince me that I’m talking to another human. But if I look at the software, I might find something like this:

if (verb == ‘died’)
fprintf(1,’I am saddened by the death of your %s’,noun)
end

I’m pretty sure there is more to human consciousness than this, and even if my laptop answers all my questions intelligently, I will still doubt there is “someone” inside my Intel processor who experiences the same consciousness that I do, and who is really saddened by the death of my cat, though I admit I can’t prove that there isn’t.

I really don’t know how to argue with people who believe computers could be conscious. About all I can say is: what about typewriters? Typewriters also do exactly what they are told to do, and have produced some magnificent works of literature. Do you believe that typewriters can also be conscious?

And if you don’t believe that intelligent engineers could ever cause machines to attain consciousness, how can you believe that random mutations could accomplish this?

Comments
jurassicmac: that you weren’t seriously insinuating that anyone thinks that consciousness could exist in such a simple device. I am curious. As you seem to suggest that consciousness requires complexity, how would you define complexity in this context?gpuccio
September 5, 2010
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Granville Sewell @27, you thesis is quite reasonable and eminently defensible. The same blogger who insists that the word "consciousness" has not been sufficiently defined for purposes of discussion is the same blogger who asserts that it is not unreasonable to believe that a computer could arrive at that state. ---jurassicmac to Granville: "I’ll have to assume that your comment “what about typewriters,” was a joke that fell flat; that you weren’t seriously insinuating that anyone thinks that consciousness could exist in such a simple device." I think I understand now. If the term conciousness is used to explain the futility of Darwinism, you don't know what it means, but if it can be used to argue against Granville Sewell's thesis, its meaning becomes clear.StephenB
September 5, 2010
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I've used the following verse before when I realized how extensive (and how little understood) the evidence for epigenetic and ontogenetic information were for Body Plan formation, but the verse is just as fitting now in dealing with the extensive evidence for man having a mind/soul that transcends his physical body in the first place: Jeremiah 1:5 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;,,, Near Death Experiences - Scientific Evidence - Dr Jeff Long M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 I always been fascinated by the many accounts of Near Death Experiences, in which the experiencer will say something to the effect that they remember that this 9heaven0 is where they 'really' came from,,, etc.. etc...bornagain77
September 5, 2010
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Mark: Good questions. I will try to clarify, according to my point of view: I have tried to make clear that the soul is a philosophical and religious concept. That's why I wrote: "I think that most of those who believe that consciousness is an independent principle view it as a property, or as the essence itself, of what is usually called “soul”. So, the answer to your question “how did it first appear?” at a philosophical level would critically depend on the specific conception of the soul one has." IOW, to answer your questions one has to propose a whole metaphysical scenario. There are many different ones, and each one of us is free to choose the one he believes in. I usually avoid to discuss specific philosophical and religious beliefs here, except when I believe they have very universal implications (as in the case of the problem of free will). In general, I prefer to discuss empirical views here, because that's my purpose in posting on this blog. That's why I added: "If we want to stay empirical, consciousness has to be considered as an observed part of reality, and a very important one. In that case, empirically, the only possible answer to your question: “how did it first appear?”, is “we don’t know”. Empirically, we don’t know. Yet." All the rest of my post is purely empirical. But I can, I believe, give a possible empirical answer to at least one of your questions, based on my personal understanding of consciousness and of its processes, and on my empirical model of consciousness. You say: In a similar way – sometime between conception and birth most humans become conscious and therefore presumably acquire a soul. If this is not an emergent property then how does this happen? First of all, I think that most religious views believe that the soul enters the zygote at the moment of conception. I certainly believe that way. But this is not an empirical argument, and I don't want to contradict myself too much :) The empirical argument would be as follows: As you correctly state, I believe that the manifestations of consciousness "have the important property that they are a matter of degree". But it is important to understand that, in my model, that is a property of the manifestations of consciousness, of its phenomenic "states", not of the transcendental self, which is the subject who perceives and experiences those states. So, my model is that the self is associated to the zygote from the moment of conception, but that it experieces different "states", as the physical body and the nervous structures develop. So, it's not a matter of "emergent properties". The fundamental property of being conscious, of being a self, is always there, but its phenomenic manifestation depends on the status of the physical interface. In substance, it's not different from what happens in postnatal life. This should also clarify my possible answer to your other point: There seems to be no reason why the properties of the soul should have anything in common with the souls of the parents as it is not inheriting those properties. Yet there is ample experimental evidence that we do inherit mental attributes as well as physical ones. The properties of which you speak (including mental attributes) are inherited because they are part of the physical interface (including the structure of the brain). The interface is in great measure heredited, and the self experiences it and interacts through it with outer reality, as its personal adventure develops. I hope that clarifies my point of view.gpuccio
September 5, 2010
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markf, this following short video shows how the theistic view of 'consciousness' and the materialistic view of 'consciousness' are world's apart: The Mystery Of Life - God's Creation & Providence - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4193364bornagain77
September 5, 2010
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Gpuccio I did not express myself well. I think you have a concept of consciousness which avoids the problems I am trying to identify. It has the important property that it is a matter of degree. So a slug could have very low level of consciousness, a dog a lot more, and a person even more. If you believe this then it is possible to give a reasonable account of the development of consciousness which is consistent with common descent. As the nervous system developed then the organisms were able to sustain greater levels of consciousness. The question I have then is - you say the consciousness is a property of the soul. So now the point is a different one. You believe in common descent. Presumably you don't believe the first prokaryotic life had souls. So at some point an organism without a soul must have had offspring which did have souls (or is soul also a matter of degree?). This is the point I was trying to make about a family where the parents were not conscious but the children were. Now this is not logically impossible - but it seems very strange to me. In a similar way - sometime between conception and birth most humans become conscious and therefore presumably acquire a soul. If this is not an emergent property then how does this happen? Presumably the soul is attached to the body by a supernatural process. If so, what relationship does the soul of the progeny have to the souls of the parents? There seems to be no reason why the properties of the soul should have anything in common with the souls of the parents as it is not inheriting those properties. Yet there is ample experimental evidence that we do inherit mental attributes as well as physical ones.markf
September 5, 2010
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gpuccio, bornagain77 and StephenB, thanks for the very thought-full responses. And also thanks to skynetx for your encouraging words in comment #1, I get pretty discouraged sometimes.Granville Sewell
September 5, 2010
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---jurassicmac: "Stephen, let me clarify. I wasn’t saying that “because God made it that way,” was a less satisfying explanation than any other, I was saying that “because God made it that way,” isn’t an explanation at all." But you are, of course, incorrect. It is both a theological and a philosophical explanation, hearkening back to a first cause. ---"I am a Christian, and I believe that anything that happens is at the very least allowed by God. In one sense, I believe it is accurate to say that it was God’s intention that my house exist. But if someone asks me how my house came to exist, and I simply answer: “Because God willed it so,” I haven’t answered their question in at all." Yes, you have, but you have provided the wrong answer. God didn't build your house. ---"I haven’t explained anything." If you say that God created the universe, you have provided the right philosophical/theological explanation, and it will be consistent with any valid scientific explanation. ---"The same thing goes for “Why does it rain?” The reply: “Because God causes it,” isn’t an explanation in any sense of the word." To say that God caused the ecological conditions that make rain possible is to provide a theological explanation. ---"Science is concerned with discerning proximate causes, not ultimate causes." Yes, that's right. On the other hand, to say that science is concerned with proximate causes doesn't mean that ultimate causes are not causes or that they are not explanations. They are different kinds of explanations and are arrived at through deductive means rather than inductive means. --"To say “God made it that way,” isn’t illuminating in the least, because that is the same answer a theist could give for everything. What causes radioactivity?" God is the ultimate cause of radioacticity. That is a lot more illuminating that saying radioacticity "emerged" from who knows what. The word emerge is simply a incomprehensible description posing as a cause. ---"God. Why does lithium react with water the way it does? God. How did our solar system form? God. How does photosynthesis work? God." Isn't it time that you stopped confusing theological explanations with scientific explanations. --"You see, not only is “God did it,” not a more ‘illuminating’ explanation, it is not an explanation at all!" To say God created something is a meaningful statement. To say that something emerged is to say that something came from nothing, which is irrational. As a self professed "Christian," you should be wary of the something-from-nothing type explanations provided by Darwinists. ---"And of course, the question that follows emergent properties is “why does this property emerge?” No, the question is, what in blazes do you mean by "emergence" and why do you acknowledge that it could be a cause of anything. The whole purpose for using the word emerge is to imply that no cause was needed in an attempt to escape the overwhelming evidence for design. ---"This is a terrible analogy; of course it makes sense to say that Mozart composed his symphonies: we know with a high degree of certainty that he did. We know this for several reasons." Obviously, you do not understand the analogy or its purpose. ---"We have plausible, verifiable agency; we know that humans can and do write music. We have plausible, verifiable mechanism; we know that humans can transcribe musical notes with pen and paper. We even corroborating historical documentation. With the diversification of life, we have none of these things." The purpose of the analogy is to show that there are many causes that cannot be measured. Mozart's creative act in composing cannot be measured, but it is a cause, just as God's creative act in conceiving the design of the universe cannot be measured and yet is also a cause. Through a design inference, we can detect intelligent activity by studying the EFFECTS of both causes, i.e. the cause of the universe and the cause of the symphony. You are confusing Mozart's creativity, and God's creativity, which are agency causes, with the laws of physics, which are natural causes. Further, you are expecting both types of explanations to be of the same texture. You claim to be Christian, but you are thinking like a materialist Darwinist.StephenB
September 5, 2010
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jurassicmac, the crushing problem against your position, of computers having the 'potential' to become conscious, or any other 3D material entity ever having the 'potential' of becoming conscious, can be illustrated by Quantum Mechanics. It is interesting to note that some materialists seem to have a very hard time grasping the simple point of the double slit experiments, but to try to put it more clearly; To explain an event which defies time and space, as the quantum erasure experiment clearly does, you cannot appeal to any material entity in the experiment like the detector, or any other 3D physical part of the experiment such as a computer , which is itself constrained by the limits of time and space. To give an adequate explanation for defying time and space one is forced to appeal to a transcendent entity which is itself not confined by time or space. But then again I guess I can see why forcing someone who claims to be a atheistic materialist to appeal to a non-material transcendent entity, to give an adequate explanation, would invoke such utter confusion on their part. Yet to try to put it in even more ‘shocking’ terms, the ‘shocking’ conclusion of the experiment is that a transcendent Mind, with a capital M, must precede the collapse of quantum waves to 3-Dimensional particles. Moreover, it is impossible for a human mind to ever ‘emerge’ from any 3-D material particle which is itself semi-dependent on our ‘observation’ for its own collapse to a 3D reality in the first place. This is more than a slight problem for the atheistic-evolutionary materialist who insists that our minds ‘emerged’, or evolved, from 3D matter. In the following article Professor Henry puts it more clearly than I can:
The Mental Universe – Richard Conn Henry – Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke “decoherence” – the notion that “the physical environment” is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in “Renninger-type” experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf Astrophysicist John Gribbin comments on the Renninger experiment here: Solving the quantum mysteries – John Gribbin Excerpt: From a 50:50 probability of the flash occurring either on the hemisphere or on the outer sphere, the quantum wave function has collapsed into a 100 per cent certainty that the flash will occur on the outer sphere. But this has happened without the observer actually “observing” anything at all! It is purely a result of a change in the observer’s knowledge about what is going on in the experiment.
i.e. The detector is completely removed as to being the primary cause of quantum wave collapse in the experiment. As Richard Conn Henry clearly implied previously, in the experiment it is found that ‘The physical environment’ IS NOT sufficient within itself to ‘create reality’, i.e. IS NOT sufficient to explain quantum wave collapse to a ‘uncertain’ 3D particle. thus jurassicmac, we are clearly dealing with a transcendent entity that is not limited be time and space, and yet you act as if we keep rearranging 1's and 0's in a computer's 'physical' memory, which is clearly based in time and space, we will somehow someday have a computer that will produce that which is transcendent of time and space?!? Your conjecture is of the same type of problem as those who try to explain the origination of the universe with no 'material' entity to work with. You simply don't have anything to work with in this instance save your 'faith' that it may be possible someday.bornagain77
September 5, 2010
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GP: Excellent. As usual. Gkairosfocus
September 5, 2010
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Mark: One other point. If you do not believe consciousness has a physical basis then why should it be heritable? It can hardly be in our genes if it is not physical. And how did it first appear? If you accept common descent and believe consciousness to be a unique thing rather than a matter of degree then there must have been one or more families where the parents were not conscious but the children were! I am not sure I understand your points. In what sense consciousness should be (or not be) "heritable"? I certainly believe that it is not "in our genes", and so would probably do all those who, like me, believe that it is "not physical". And so? I think that most of those who believe that consciousness is an independent principle view it as a property, or as the essence itself, of what is usually called "soul". So, the answer to your question "how did it first appear?" at a philosophical level would critically depend on the specific conception of the soul one has. If we want to stay empirical, consciousness has to be considered as an observed part of reality, and a very important one. In that case, empirically, the only possible answer to your question: "how did it first appear?", is "we don't know". Empirically, we don't know. Yet. What we know is that, in us humans, which is where we directly observe consciousness, it is certainly "interfaced" with the physical body and brain. There is no question about that. Consciousness, in us, interacts with the outer world, in both directions, through the interface of our physical body and brain. Now, I would say that "the interface" is certainly in our genes. I think we can agree on that. Finally, I really don't understand your last concept. I certainly "accept common descent and believe consciousness to be a unique thing". The transcendental self is, IMO, "a unique thing". But I also believe that the manifestations of consciousness (for instance, its different "states") are "a matter of degree": waking consciousness is different from dreams and from deep sleep, or form other subconscious states, such as hypnosis, but all of those states are manifestations of the conscious, transcendental self. And why should there be "one or more families where the parents were not conscious but the children were!"? Humans are conscious, as far as we know. To what are you referring?gpuccio
September 5, 2010
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jurassicmac: Just a few comments on what you say: 1) How could one possibly say that the ‘explanation’ of consciousness poses a problem for any theory, if it is not currently understood at all to begin with? Here there is some confusion in terms and epistemology, I believe. Consciousness is what it is, because it is a fact, not a theory. It is indeed directly observed by each one of us (our personal consciousness), and then, and only then, inferred in others by analogy. Facts are not necessarily "understood". Sometimes, they can be "explained" in the sense that we can build a more or less valid model which relates some facts to other facts or to other concepts. But we do not "understand" what matter is, or what energy is, or what gravitation is, any more than we "understand" what consciousness is. We can build theories about the properties of matter, or of energy, and the relations between those properties, and the same can be done for consciousness. 2) The assumption of strong ID theory, and of reductionist materialism, is that consciousness (the fact) can be "explained" as a consequence of some properties of matter and of the known laws of physics. Well, anybody is free to believe what he likes. But it is a fact that there is absolutely no basis for that assumption. 3) On the contrary, there are very strong reasons, both logical and empirical, to disagree with that assumption and to give it no real credit. The form that the assumption takes usually is that consciousness is a consequence of some property of the software. That is logically inconsistent, and indeed is not even a credible concept at all. Software is only a more or less complex arrangement of very simple computations. According to AI theory, the results of those computations are independent from the hardware. This concept is very important, because it means that if some property of the software is the cause of consciousness, then those computations should generate the same consciousness on any hardware, including an abacus. Who is really ready to believe that a very complex abacus, manually operated, will become conscious while the computations are accomplished? Moreover, all the possible properties of software which have been invoked as a substrate for consciousness, such as paralle computing or loops, have no intrinsic reason to be more related to consciousness than, say, a simple addition. Why should parallel computing be more prone to be conscious than serial computing? Did we observe any raise in consciousness in last generation processors? The simple fact is: software is softarwe; it is a series of organized simple computations. Affirming that it becomes conscious becasue of its structure is no more reasonable than affirming that a well painted woman portrait will begin to speak. There is no sense in it, and that's all. 4) The empirical reasons against strong AI are very simple: there is absolutely no sign that any specific software structure contributes to consciousness, even less determines it. But there is another very important argument, one that is directly related to ID. Software cannot generate new CSI. That is very important, because conscious beings can do that, and they definitely do that all the time, and very easily. That is a very strong argument in favour of the assumption (this time, very reasonable) that consciousness is necessary to generate CSI. With all the logical consequences which ensue, both for darwinian theory and for strong AI theory.gpuccio
September 5, 2010
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Congratulations to Jurassicmac for his/her clear and intelligent comments. One other point. If you do not believe consciousness has a physical basis then why should it be heritable? It can hardly be in our genes if it is not physical. And how did it first appear? If you accept common descent and believe consciousness to be a unique thing rather than a matter of degree then there must have been one or more families where the parents were not conscious but the children were!markf
September 5, 2010
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Jurassicmac,
ID currently is suffering from a very strong perception of being anti-science. That perception is reinforced with articles like this which propose that little-understood phenomena are somehow problems for evolutionary theory.
I didn't actually mention ID in the article, it was about Darwinism. And yes, I do think that little-understood phenomena are problems for any theory which claims to explain them, especially if that theory is taught in all our science classrooms as being as well established as gravity, and given legal protection from scientific criticism. No one here is even proposing that ID be taught in science classrooms, you are the one whose speculative theory is being taught as religious dogma. Apparently your position is that because some sci-fi aficionados like yourself think scientists might someday create computers that are conscious (do you also think traveling back in time may be possible some day?), it's 'anti-science' to recognize that human consciousness might be a problem for modern evolutionary theory.Granville Sewell
September 5, 2010
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To clarify to everyone here: I'm all for ID establishing itself as a legitimate scientific discipline. But ID currently is suffering from a very strong perception of being 'anti-science'. That perception is reinforced with articles like this which propose that little-understood phenomena are somehow 'problems' for evolutionary theory. It doesn't help that the article wanders into baseless speculation about what technological achievements won't ever happen.jurassicmac
September 4, 2010
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lamark said:
Well it’s obviously a problem for your theory if it’s so slippery you can’t even define it.
It's not that I can't explain what causes consciousness, it's that no one can. (yet) Saying that any 'x' is a problem for any theory is nonsense when nothing is known about 'x'. It would be like saying 'blobutrons' are a problem for the theory of relativity without knowing anything about what causes blobutrons, or even what they are. If it turns out that 'consciousness' is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex brain, or something like that, then evolutionary theory wouldn't have any more trouble explaining it than any other emergent propery in nature, like 'migration' or flocking behavior.jurassicmac
September 4, 2010
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JDH said:
Having a Ph.D in physics ( computer simulation of ionospheric processes and artificial heating ) and having been in the computer industry for over 25 years I think I know a little fact that proves that human consciousness can not have evolved. I may be wrong, but it will take a tremendous amount of real logic, not complicated gobbedly gook to change my mind. The simple fact is this. Despite years of experience writing many complex codes, I can not write a computer program that disobeys me. I don’t even no how to do it.
JDH, I must respectfully point out you that you have made 2 logical fallacies at the same time. First and foremost, you have made the fallacy of 'Argument from Analogy." You have presented an analogy of how you think computer programming relates to consciousness, but then declare it a 'known little fact' that 'proves' human consciousness could not have evolved. An analogy never proves anything. (especially when its an irrelevant analogy to begin with) Secondly, your 'analogy' is also an "Argument from Incredulity." "I can not write a computer program..." "I don't even know how...." Just because you don't know how to write code that disobeys you, doesn't mean it's impossible. It's irrelevant to the point anyway: You certainly could write to programs that disobey each other. And to play devil's advocate for a second, how do you know that humans aren't following their 'program'? Do you have access to the 'source code' that the rest of us don't have? Do tell.jurassicmac
September 4, 2010
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StephenB:
To say, “God made it that way” is more illuminating that to say, “it emerged.” The first statement is consistent with science and tells us something about the cause; the second statement is not consistent with science and tells us absolutely nothing about the cause.
Stephen, let me clarify. I wasn't saying that "because God made it that way," was a less satisfying explanation than any other, I was saying that "because God made it that way," isn't an explanation at all. I am a Christian, and I believe that anything that happens is at the very least allowed by God. In one sense, I believe it is accurate to say that it was God's intention that my house exist. But if someone asks me how my house came to exist, and I simply answer: "Because God willed it so," I haven't answered their question in at all. I haven't explained anything. The same thing goes for "Why does it rain?" The reply: "Because God causes it," isn't an explanation in any sense of the word. Science is concerned with discerning proximate causes, not ultimate causes. To say "God made it that way," isn't illuminating in the least, because that is the same answer a theist could give for everything. What causes radioactivity? God. Why does lithium react with water the way it does? God. How did our solar system form? God. How does photosynthesis work? God. You see, not only is "God did it," not a more 'illuminating' explanation, it is not an explanation at all! And It could not be less consistent with science. And of course, the question that follows emergent properties is "why does this property emerge?"
For the same reason, it makes sense to say that Mozart composed his symphonies, but it makes no sense at all to say that these works of art “emerged.”
This is a terrible analogy; of course it makes sense to say that Mozart composed his symphonies: we know with a high degree of certainty that he did. We know this for several reasons. We have plausible, verifiable agency; we know that humans can and do write music. We have plausible, verifiable mechanism; we know that humans can transcribe musical notes with pen and paper. We even corroborating historical documentation. With the diversification of life, we have none of these things.jurassicmac
September 4, 2010
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Granville said:
If you ask whether they believe computers will someday be conscious, most people will say, of course not, that’s ridiculous; yet many of them believe random mutations and natural selection could accomplish this. My post was aimed at these people, to get them to see the inconsistency.
My bet is that most people who accept evolution would not say it's ridiculous to think that a computer-like device may someday be conscious. You seem to be mixing your demographics here; I'd say that many, many, more ID proponents think it's 'ridiculous' to speculate that it may be a possibility to design a machine that's conscious, even in the distant future. I wholeheartedly agree with you that it would be an inconsistency to think that evolution could produce consciousness, but that intentional design couldn't, at least in principle. But I think that you're making (incorrect) presumptions about what a lot of evolutionists think. I'm not even saying it will happen; just that saying it won't seems a stretch when in the same breath you acknowledge that no one even knows what consciousness is. I mean, if God designed conscious beings while still constructing them out of atoms, why couldn't we? (Especially if we were to model the computer after the brain in the first place)
Apparently you are one of those who would say it is “extremely presumptuous” to rule out the possibility that computers can be conscious. As I said in the post, I don’t know how to reach people like you; all I can say is, what about typewriters?
Yes, I absolutely would say that it is presumptuous to rule out the possibility that computers could one day be conscious, and if you can't see that it is, then I don't know how to reach people like you. Calling this statement presumptuous doesn't even have anything to do with evolution; I would have considered it an indefensible statement even when I was a young earth creationist. Evaluate what you're saying. You (or anyone else for that matter) can't answer the following: A. What consciousness even is, or what causes it in the first place or B. What computer technology will be like in 10, 100, or 1,000 years. So you're making a blanket statement with two variables, without knowing anything about the two variables. Can you not see the problem with this? My buddy Dave and I used to have debates about whether or not humans will ever invent teleporters, like in Star Trek. His position is that we wouldn't, because he thought the technology required was too farfetched. my position was that his position was nonsense; what seems like fantasy to one generation is commonplace to the next. Those who claim that a particular invention or technological achievement are impossible are almost always eventually proven wrong. Just in case there's any confusion, I'm not claiming that consciousness exists in current computers. I'll have to assume that your comment "what about typewriters," was a joke that fell flat; that you weren't seriously insinuating that anyone thinks that consciousness could exist in such a simple device.jurassicmac
September 4, 2010
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very interesting insight @ 8 JDH,bornagain77
September 4, 2010
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This is very interesting to: Today Show: Woman recounts life after death - 01/20/2010 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZ2tvv3mtobornagain77
September 4, 2010
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I have to put a plug in for this book since it mentions "Spiritual Brain" and Signature In The Cell" in the promo: In Consciousness Beyond Life, the internationally renowned cardiologist Dr. Pim van Lommel offers ground-breaking research into whether or not our consciousness survives the death of our body. If you enjoy books about near-death experiences, such as those by Raymond Moody, Jeffrey Long, and James Van Praagh; watch televisions shows like Ghosthunters, Touched by an Angel, and Ghost Whisperer; or are interested in works that explore the intersection of faith and science, such as Spiritual Brain, Signature in the Cell, and When Science Meets Religion; you’ll find much to ponder in Consciousness Beyond Life. http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Consciousness-Beyond-Life-Pim-Van-Lommel/?isbn=9780061777257 further excerpt: Van Lommel provides scientific evidence that the near-death phenomenon is an authentic experience that cannot be attributed to imagination, psychosis, or oxygen deprivation. He further reveals that after such a profound experience, most patients' personalities undergo a permanent change. In van Lommel's opinion, the current views on the relationship between the brain and consciousness held by most physicians, philosophers, and psychologists are too narrow for a proper understanding of the phenomenon. In Consciousness Beyond Life, van Lommel shows that our consciousness does not always coincide with brain functions and that, remarkably and significantly, consciousness can even be experienced separate from the body.bornagain77
September 4, 2010
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JDH, Interesting insight. Thanks. If you could design your computer to disobey you, then it's obeying you. Sigh :(CannuckianYankee
September 4, 2010
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"Since you yourself fully admit that “… it is hard to say anything “scientific” about consciousness, since we don’t really know what it is,” don’t you think it is a bit premature to conclude that consciousness is somehow a ‘problem’ for evolutionary theory?" Well it's obviously a problem for your theory if it's so slippery you can't even define it. Doesn't that make it a big fat problem? Probably the biggest problem, and very well defined as a problem at that? Here's the firt part of the problem defined for you: a. thought does exist, there's no getting around that without getting cop-out ethereal.lamarck
September 4, 2010
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---jurassicmac: "We don’t really know anything about consciousness; and that’s my point: for all we know, it could be an emergent property of a complex brain." ---"And of course, “Because God made it that way,” isn’t an explanation of anything." To say, "God made it that way" is more illuminating that to say, "it emerged." The first statement is consistent with science and tells us something about the cause; the second statement is not consistent with science and tells us absolutely nothing about the cause. For the same reason, it makes sense to say that Mozart composed his symphonies, but it makes no sense at all to say that these works of art "emerged."StephenB
September 4, 2010
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Having a Ph.D in physics ( computer simulation of ionospheric processes and artificial heating ) and having been in the computer industry for over 25 years I think I know a little fact that proves that human consciousness can not have evolved. I may be wrong, but it will take a tremendous amount of real logic, not complicated gobbedly gook to change my mind. The simple fact is this. Despite years of experience writing many complex codes, I can not write a computer program that disobeys me. I don't even no how to do it. I can write computer programs that have bugs and don't perform what I thought they were going to do; I can write computer programs that make pseudo-random choices. I do not know how to write a program that disobeys. I would contend it can't be done. But the ability to disobey the Creator is the essence of consciousness. Otherwise it's just complicated programming with random choices.JDH
September 4, 2010
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Jurassicmac, If you ask whether they believe computers will someday be conscious, most people will say, of course not, that's ridiculous; yet many of them believe random mutations and natural selection could accomplish this. My post was aimed at these people, to get them to see the inconsistency. Apparently you are one of those who would say it is "extremely presumptuous" to rule out the possibility that computers can be conscious. As I said in the post, I don't know how to reach people like you; all I can say is, what about typewriters?Granville Sewell
September 4, 2010
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Granville, Since you yourself fully admit that "... it is hard to say anything “scientific” about consciousness, since we don’t really know what it is," don't you think it is a bit premature to conclude that consciousness is somehow a 'problem' for evolutionary theory? How could one possibly say that the 'explanation' of consciousness poses a problem for any theory, if it is not currently understood at all to begin with? Illion, you said:
"Consciousness is itself; it’s not made out of something else."
That seems a bit like saying "Migration is itself' it's not made out of something else." That statement is true in that migration isn't 'made' out of something physical, but it is an emergent feature of some physical, biological systems. We don't really know anything about consciousness; and that's my point: for all we know, it could be an emergent property of a complex brain. We don't have any evidence to suggest that consciousness can exist in the absence of a brain. (or something like a brain) Again, all I'm saying is that it sounds extremely presumptuous to say that any particular theory can't explain a phenomena, if that phenomena isn't understood at all to begin with. And of course, "Because God made it that way," isn't an explanation of anything.jurassicmac
September 4, 2010
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Very interesting line of thought llion. I was kind of thinking along the same line. Consciousness is somewhat of a 'primal' entity of the universe that precedes the 'material' universe in the first place. We end up being very much like the blind men trying to describe different parts of the elephant to each other. Notes: This following experiment went extended Wheeler's delayed choice experiment to highlight the centrality of 'information' in the Double Slit Experiment and refutes any 'detector centered' arguments for why the wave collapses: (Double Slit) A Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser - updated 2007 Excerpt: Upon accessing the information gathered by the Coincidence Circuit, we the observer are shocked to learn that the pattern shown by the positions registered at D0 (Detector Zero) at Time 2 depends entirely on the information gathered later at Time 4 and available to us at the conclusion of the experiment. (i.e. This experiment clearly shows that the detector is secondary in the experiment and that a conscious observer, being able to know the information of which path a photon takes with local certainty, is primary to the wave collapsing to a particle in the experiment. The act of a detector detecting a photon at an earlier time in the experiment does not determine if the wave will be collapsed at the end of the experiment. Only the availability of the information to the observer is what matters for the wave to collapse. That is what he meant by 'we the observer are shocked to learn') http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scully/kim-scully-web.htm It is interesting to note that some materialists seem to have a very hard time grasping the simple point of the double slit experiments, but to try to put it more clearly; To explain an event which defies time and space, as the quantum erasure experiment clearly does, you cannot appeal to any material entity in the experiment like the detector, or any other 3D physical part of the experiment, which is itself constrained by the limits of time and space. To give an adequate explanation for defying time and space one is forced to appeal to a transcendent entity which is itself not confined by time or space. But then again I guess I can see why forcing someone who claims to be a atheistic materialist to appeal to a non-material transcendent entity, to give an adequate explanation, would invoke such utter confusion on their part. Yet to try to put it in even more 'shocking' terms, the 'shocking' conclusion of the experiment is that a transcendent Mind, with a capital M, must precede the collapse of quantum waves to 3-Dimensional particles. Moreover, it is impossible for a human mind to ever 'emerge' from any 3-D material particle which is itself semi-dependent on our 'observation' for its own collapse to a 3D reality in the first place. This is more than a slight problem for the atheistic-evolutionary materialist who insists that our minds 'emerged', or evolved, from 3D matter. In the following article Professor Henry puts it more clearly than I can: The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf Astrophysicist John Gribbin comments on the Renninger experiment here: Solving the quantum mysteries - John Gribbin Excerpt: From a 50:50 probability of the flash occurring either on the hemisphere or on the outer sphere, the quantum wave function has collapsed into a 100 per cent certainty that the flash will occur on the outer sphere. But this has happened without the observer actually "observing" anything at all! It is purely a result of a change in the observer's knowledge about what is going on in the experiment. i.e. The detector is completely removed as to being the primary cause of quantum wave collapse in the experiment. As Richard Conn Henry clearly implied previously, in the experiment it is found that 'The physical environment' IS NOT sufficient within itself to 'create reality', i.e. IS NOT sufficient to explain quantum wave collapse to a 'uncertain' 3D particle. Why, who makes much of a miracle? As to me, I know of nothing else but miracles, Whether I walk the streets of Manhattan, Or dart my sight over the roofs of houses toward the sky,,, Walt Whitman - Miracles That the mind of a individual observer would play such an integral, yet not complete 'closed loop' role, in instantaneous quantum wave collapse to uncertain 3-D particles, gives us clear evidence that our mind is a unique entity. A unique entity with a superior quality of existence when compared to the uncertain 3D particles of the material universe. This is clear evidence for the existence of the 'higher dimensional soul' of man that supersedes any material basis that the soul/mind has been purported to emerge from by materialists. I would also like to point out that the 'effect', of universal quantum wave collapse to each 'central 3D observer', gives us clear evidence of the extremely special importance that the 'cause' of the 'Infinite Mind of God' places on each of our own individual souls/minds. Psalm 139:17-18 How precious concerning me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you. further notes: I especially like how the authors draw out this following 'what it means to be human' distinction in their paper: "although Homo neanderthalensis had a large brain, it left no unequivocal evidence of the symbolic consciousness that makes our species unique." -- "Unusual though Homo sapiens may be morphologically, it is undoubtedly our remarkable cognitive qualities that most strikingly demarcate us from all other extant species. They are certainly what give us our strong subjective sense of being qualitatively different. And they are all ultimately traceable to our symbolic capacity. Human beings alone, it seems, mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities. When exactly Homo sapiens acquired this unusual ability is the subject of debate." The authors of the paper try to find some evolutionary/materialistic reason for the extremely unique 'information capacity' of humans, but of course they never find a coherent reason. Indeed why should we ever consider a process, which is utterly incapable of ever generating any complex functional information at even the most foundational levels of molecular biology, to suddenly, magically, have the ability to generate our brain which can readily understand and generate functional information? A brain which has been repeatedly referred to as 'the Most Complex Structure in the Universe'? The authors never seem to consider the 'spiritual angle' for why we would have such a unique capacity for such abundant information processing. This following short video, and verses, are very clear as to what the implications of this evidence means to us and for us: Modus Tollens - It Is Impossible For Evolution To Be True - T.G. Peeler - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5047482 Genesis 3:8 And they (Adam and Eve) heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day... John 1:1-1 In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. A very strong piece of suggestive evidence, which persuasively hints at a unique relationship that man has with 'The Word' of John 1:1, is found in these following articles which point out the fact that ‘coincidental scientific discoveries’ are far more prevalent than what should be expected from a materialistic perspective,: In the Air – Who says big ideas are rare? by Malcolm Gladwell Excerpt: This phenomenon of simultaneous discovery—what science historians call “multiples”—turns out to be extremely common. One of the first comprehensive lists of multiples was put together by William Ogburn and Dorothy Thomas, in 1922, and they found a hundred and forty-eight major scientific discoveries that fit the multiple pattern. Newton and Leibniz both discovered calculus. Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace both discovered evolution. Three mathematicians “invented” decimal fractions. Oxygen was discovered by Joseph Priestley, in Wiltshire, in 1774, and by Carl Wilhelm Scheele, in Uppsala, a year earlier. Color photography was invented at the same time by Charles Cros and by Louis Ducos du Hauron, in France. Logarithms were invented by John Napier and Henry Briggs in Britain, and by Joost Bürgi in Switzerland. ,,, For Ogburn and Thomas, the sheer number of multiples could mean only one thing: scientific discoveries must, in some sense, be inevitable. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_gladwell/?currentPage=all List of multiple discoveries Excerpt: Historians and sociologists have remarked on the occurrence, in science, of "multiple independent discovery". Robert K. Merton defined such "multiples" as instances in which similar discoveries are made by scientists working independently of each other.,,, Multiple independent discovery, however, is not limited to only a few historic instances involving giants of scientific research. Merton believed that it is multiple discoveries, rather than unique ones, that represent the common pattern in science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_discoveries The following video is far more direct in establishing the 'spiritual' link to man's ability to learn new information, in that it shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years, after the removal of prayer from the classroom by the Supreme Court in 1963: The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 These following studies, though of materialistic bent, offer strong support that Humans are extremely unique in this 'advanced information capacity' when compared to animals: Darwin’s mistake: Explaining the discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds: Excerpt: There is a profound functional discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds. We argue that this discontinuity pervades nearly every domain of cognition and runs much deeper than even the spectacular scaffolding provided by language or culture can explain. We hypothesize that the cognitive discontinuity between human and nonhuman animals is largely due to the degree to which human and nonhuman minds are able to approximate the higher-order, systematic, relational capabilities of a physical symbol system (i.e. we are able to understand information). http://www.bbsonline.org/Preprints/Penn-01062006/Referees/Penn-01062006_bbs-preprint.htm Origin of the Mind: Marc Hauser Excerpt: "Researchers have found some of the building blocks of human cognition in other species. But these building blocks make up only the cement footprint of the skyscraper that is the human mind",,, These following studies highlight the difficulty materialists have in fitting our mental abilities into any plausible evolutionary scenario: Origin of Soulish Animals: Excerpt: Bolhuis and Wynne contrast the cognitive capacities of birds and primates.,,, They also refer to an experiment demonstrating that "crows can also work out how to use one tool to obtain a second with which they can retrieve food, a skill that monkeys and apes struggle to master." Evidently, certain bird species exhibit greater powers of the mind than do apes. Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test - Douglas S. Robertson Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/55000207/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0bornagain77
September 4, 2010
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Well, that was pretty vacuous. Let's start with the easy problems.
With the right software, my laptop may already be able to pass a Turing test, and convince me that I am Instant Messaging another human.
What a curious laptop you have. If I were to participate in in a Turing test, I'd be asking questions like "Of the two most recent questions you were asked, which was the more difficult to answer and why?" Your dictionary approach doesn't work too well there, does it. You've also managed to mischaracterize the Turing test, and I don't think you've read anything scholarly in artificial intelligence or philosophy of mind. Arguments from incredulity are almost always arguments from ignorance without the admission of ignorance, yes? Turing's "Computing Machinery and Intelligence" paper can be found here. Daniel Dennett's Can Machines Think? begins with the words "Much has been written about the Turing test in the last few years, some of it preposterously off the mark." It explains (among other things) why a dictionary-based approaches to artificial intelligence won't every be able to pass a Turing test. If you're not able to define consciousness then it's not surprising that you're unable to consider a physical model of it, and if you don't have a physical model then there's not much point in trying to evaluate an evolutionary solution (unless you're intending on making an argument from incredulity rooted in an argument from ignorance). Kandel's Principles of Neural Science is 1,400+ pages of how the brain works (and fails to work), starting at the electrochemical and working up through the cellular to larger brain structures. Once you remove all the aspects of thought and behavior where neural correlates are known, there's very little remaining for a non-physical consciousness to do. So yes, I agree with you: you really don’t know how to argue with people who believe computers could be conscious.BarryR
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