Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hyperskepticism: The Wrong Side Of A Continuum

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Philosophers and scientists who know their business recognize that any attempt to seek knowledge presupposes the existence of a rational universe ripe for investigating. The fact that we even bother to make the effort says something about our nature. As Aristotle says, “all men by nature want to know.” That is why the discovery of a new fact or truth can be a joy for its own sake. To be sure, knowledge also provides practical benefits, empowering us to pursue a self-directed life style, but it also edifies us, leading us on the road to self-actualization. To be intellectually healthy is to be curious.

On the other hand, we can, by virtue of our free will, act against our natural desire to know. For better or worse, there are some truths that many of us would prefer not to know about. The compelling nature of an objective fact can pull us in one direction while the force of our personal desires can pull us in the opposite direction. When this happens, a choice must be made. “Either the thinker conforms desire to truth or he conforms truth to desire.”–E. Michael Jones

Because we experience this ambivalence about the truth, we must be on guard against two errors: (a) talking ourselves out of things that we should believe [hyperskepticism] or (b) talking ourselves into things that we should not believe [gullibility]. Hyperskeptics attempt to justify the first error by calling attention to the second error, as if there was no reasonable alternative to either extreme. On the contrary, the ideal solution is to seek a rational midpoint –to balance a healthy skepticism about unconfirmed truth claims with a healthy confidence in truths already known. The one thing a thinker should not do is be skeptical or open-minded about the first principles of right reason, without which there is no standard for investigating or discoursing about anything “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”– G. K. Chesterton

In the spirit of public service, then, I present this little test for analyzing our readers’ proclivity for hyperskepticism. Hopefully, those who indulge will not find any predictable patterns, since I strove to keep them at a minimum.

Yes or No

[1] Can we know anything about the real world?

In asking this question, I am probing for your orientation on the matter of external facts with respect to our internal experience. Can we really know if such a thing as a tree exists, or is it the case that we simply experience mental representations of something that may not be a tree at all? [Reminiscent of Kant’s hyperskepticism]

[2] If the answer to [1] is no, is it, under those circumstances, possible to conduct rational investigations or participate in rational discourse?

If I can feel the experience of something that seems like a tree, without knowing that it is a tree, or if I am just using words to describe my experience, can I use my reason to draw other meaningful conclusions about the world? In other words, can I, absent a knowable external reality, reason not just validly [with internal consistency] but also soundly [align my understanding with the truth of things]?

True or False

[3] The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be and not be at the same time] is not a self-evident truth.

Inasmuch as scientific progress has demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong about the four basic elements of the earth, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he was also wrong about his so-called laws of logic.

[4] The law of causality is a self-evident truth.

I can accept this proposition unconditionally, not only as a second law of logic, but also as an intellectual companion to the first law of logic? Put another way, if a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, that fact influences or informs the law that nothing can come into existence without a cause. There is a logical connection between the claim that Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist and the claim that it cannot come into existence without a cause?

[5] Our knowledge of the real world is reliable but imperfect.

We may not know everything there is to know about a tree, but we do know that something is there that we call a tree and that it is more than just a collection of parts–something that exhibits “treeness.”

[6] A finite whole can be less than any one of its parts.

A crankcase can, in some cases, be greater than the automobile of which it is a part.

[7] The universe is ordered.

Material objects move in such a way as to indicate some kind of function or purpose.

[8] The universe may be ordered to a purpose, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it needed an intelligence to do the ordering or establish the purpose.

Purpose can exist without intelligence.

[9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic.

The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.”

[10] There can be more than one truth?

Each specialized branch of knowledge can have its own brand of truth, and that truth may well be incompatible with truths found in other specialized areas.

[11] In some cases, a cause can give more than it has to give.

Something can come to exist in the effect that was not first present in the cause. It may well be, for example, that an immaterial mind could emerge from matter even though matter has no raw materials containing anything like immaterial mental substances.

12-20, Yes, No, or I don’t know.

[12] Does truth exist?

Is truth absolute, not relative–objective, not subjective–universal, not contextual–and indivisible, not many?

[13] Is there such a thing as the natural moral law?

Is there an objective standard of right and wrong that we [humans] did not invent [or socially construct] and to which we are morally obliged to follow in spite of our personal preferences or in spite of public opinion?

[14] Does the human conscience exist?

Do we, as humans, possess some kind of inborn instinct that makes us feel bad about ourselves when we do something wrong and feel good about ourselves when we do something right. Can that same conscience be habitually silenced and ignored to the point at which it stops sending signals?

[15] Is design detectable?

Can we discern the presence of intelligence from the biological and cosmological patterns found in nature? Can we discover the presence of intelligence from patterns found in human artifacts even if we know nothing about the history of those artifacts? Can minds detect the activity of other minds?

[16] Does God exist?

Is there a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, self-existent God who created the universe and all the creatures that inhabit it?

[17] Is God organic with the universe?

Could God and the universe be one and the same thing?

[18] Can matter investigate itself?

In order for a scientist or a philosopher to investigate the universe or the world, must he exist as a substance of a different kind than the object of his study? Are two such realms of existence really necessary, or can the relationship between the investigator and the object of investigation be explained from a monistic framework.

[19] Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason.

Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational.

[20] Ask yourself this question: Do I have free will?

Do I have something to say about my fate? Can I say that I could have made choices other than the ones that I did make, or that I could have created outcomes different than the ones I did create? Do I have the power to act contrary to my nature, predisposition, desires, and appetites?

True/ False

[21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence.

Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way.

[22] Theistic Darwinism is a reasonable hypothesis.

A purposeful, mindful God may well have used a purposeless, mindless process to create humans.

[23] A universe can come into existence without a cause.

Not all effects require causes. Further, some things that are often characterized as effects, such as our universe, may not really be effects at all. Even if it does, itself, act as a cause, the physical universe could be, but need not be, the result of a prior cause.

[24] Unguided evolution is a reasonable hypothesis.

There is no reason to believe that humans could not emerge as a lucky accident from solely naturalistic forces.

[25] Cause and effect can occur without a first cause.

Granted, a cause/effect chain exists in nature, but that fact alone does not compel us to posit that only a first cause or causeless cause can explain

Comments
--Aleta: "My point is that when I make a choice, such as to stay up writing this when I should be going to bed, the particulur choice I make (and I know I have bolded the word particular at least three times) does not have any antecedent cause." Your particular choice to stay up late does have an antecedent cause, namely the self. Also, what about your numerous claims that I bootlegged numerous types of causes in my analysis on free will. Inasmuch as I asked you to identify them, and inasmuch as you refused to respond, I trust that you now understand that the charge was false and will not raise the issue again.StephenB
October 17, 2010
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Why cannot concrete walls pop up from out of nowhere? How do you know that it is not possible? ---Aleta: "That’s a deliberately provocative question that you don’t mean seriously"--- I appreciate your attempt to read my mind, but I am quite serious. – "I’m inclined to call it a stupid question, but I know you are not asking it out of stupidity." It is a very reasonable question for which a perfectly reasonable answer is available. ---"I, like you and everyone else, now and throughout history, have had lots of experience and we know things like that don’t happen." I am not asking you about your experience or whether or not it has happened. I am asking if you know whether or not it CAN happen--ever--and if so, how you know that. ---"What’s your point?" I am hoping to illuminate your mind.StephenB
October 17, 2010
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aleta "The world just isn’t like that. I don’t know why the world is as it is, and I don’t think anyone does." If you dont know why the world just isn't like that you cant know the world isnt like that, you cant know walls cannot pop up out of no where. Vividvividbleau
October 17, 2010
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reducto ad absurdumvividbleau
October 17, 2010
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aleta "Vivid, I think I see what you are getting at, but I think you are not doing it in a generous spirit, much like Stephen’s questions about the concrete wall popping into existence" aleta If my world view ends up denying the very thing I propose then that is a very big red flag that there is something fatally flawed with my assumptions. Rather than address the reducto adsurdum of your position you attack me as somehow not having a generous spirit. To be expected really since the only other choice to make is to recognize the absurdity your worldview entails. Better to attack me than face the truth. Vividvividbleau
October 17, 2010
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Last post: Clive asks, "So why don’t walls or any other macro-object just poof into existence? I ask with the intention of an actual explanation as an answer, not just a description of an experience." The world just isn't like that. I don't know why the world is as it is, and I don't think anyone does. Newton made this same point, and Feynman has seconded it - at some point our ability to explain why things are the way they are comes to an end, and we must be content to just describe how they are. This is a position I subscribe to.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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Vivid, I think I see what you are getting at, but I think you are not doing it in a generous spirit, much like Stephen's questions about the concrete wall popping into existence. We started off by talking about basic assumptions we make about the world. I've already told you that I think we all try to test the hypotheses we make in lots of ways, and that some place along the line we also have to make choices about what position we are going to take on things. My take on things is that I'm not going to believe in things like heaven and hell, reincarnation, etc, unless I see evidence. This is coupled with a lot of knowledge about religions in general, and about psychology, and a whole lifetime of learning. You're trying to get me into what you think is a logical trap - that I can't provide evidence that looking for evidence is the thing to do, or something like that. There isn't much point in that: I've never claimed that I can somehow prove that my positions are true, but I can try to explain them to people and let each person decide for themselves whether they see something useful or not.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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Stephen, you write, "A free will agent is not an uncaused cause. The free will agent is the effect of prior cause, which is God’s creative act of producing it." Yes, I know that - God created our ability to make free will choices. We are in agreement about this. My point is that when I make a choice, such as to stay up writing this when I should be going to bed, the particulur choice I make (and I know I have bolded the word particular at least three times) does not have any antecedent cause. The existence of the self's ability to make a choice was caused by God - I have the ability to make my choice effective in the world by acting on it, but my particular choice is free. I really can't say it clearer than that, and there are obviously people agree with me (Green, and other that he has referenced) and those that don't, so this probably needs to stay in the category of what view we choose to take - and I freely choose to take the view that I have described.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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Aleta, Experience that repeats is not an explanation like the explanation of why 2+2=4. We can see the reasonableness of the second, we don't have the same insight into the first. So why don't walls or any other macro-object just poof into existence? I ask with the intention of an actual explanation as an answer, not just a description of an experience.Clive Hayden
October 17, 2010
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Let's start by working backwards: Stephen writes, "Why cannot concrete walls pop up from out of nowhere? How do you know that it is not possible? Please answer." That's a deliberately provocative question that you don't mean seriously - I'm inclined to call it a stupid question, but I know you are not asking it out of stupidity. I, like you and everyone else, now and throughout history, have had lots of experience and we know things like that don't happen. What's your point?Aleta
October 17, 2010
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--Aleta: "Of course concrete walls don’t pop up out of nowhere,..." Why cannot concrete walls pop up from out of nowhere? How do you know that it is not possible? Please answer.StephenB
October 17, 2010
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---Aleta: "Because when I make a choice, there is no immediate, proximate efficient cause of the particular choice I made." The self is the immediate proximate efficient cause of the act. --"God made the universe, but once made the efficient causes of the things that happen are not God, but rather the states immediately proceeding the event." The subject matter is free will. Please stay on topic. God is the efficient cause of the self and the will. The self is the efficient cause of the human choice. You accused me of appealing to other kinds of causes and I asked you how. My question persists. --"We don’t say that God was the efficient cause of the tornado just because he made the universe." Please stay on topic. God made man’s ability to choose, but once that ability is given, the choices are man’s. God makes man and man's will, man makes the choices. I have explained this at least five times Your self is the cause of your choices. ---"My choice has no efficient cause – there is no set of prior events which caused my choice – that’s what free means." No, you have it exactly wrong. If your choices are caused by a set of prior events, then it is the prior events that are making the choice, not the self. Please try to grasp this. You falsely stated that I am appealing to causes other than efficient causes. Please indicate which other types of causes you think that I am using. Indicate them by type and name. ---"If I were making my choice because God willed it so – if he were the efficient cause, then it wouldn’t be my choice anymore – not free." Yes, so what. God is not the efficient cause of your choices. ---"If free will is genuine, then it must have the ability to be an uncaused cause – the ability to somehow move some particles in the world inside me without being caused itself by anything else." A free will agent is not an uncaused cause. The free will agent is the effect of prior cause, which is God's creative act of producing it. I know that I have explained this at least five times. Now will you tell me which kinds of causes that you think I am mixing?StephenB
October 17, 2010
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aleta re 311 I will try again. aleta “I see no evidence that they exist, and I see no reason to choose they believe they do without any evidence.” Unless you see evidence that something exists you see no reason to choose to believe something exists without evidence. When you speak of evidence, testability, etc you mean empirical evidence. It is your position that unless you see empirical evidence and empirical confirmation of something, whether that something is the law of causality, the law of non contradiction, God, angels, you fill in the blank you see no reason to believe things. I am simply asking you to empirically test your conceptualized statemtent that "I see no evidence that they exist, and I see no reason to choose they believe they do without any evidence.” I want you to apply your own standards to your self. I am not asking for reasons why the above may or may not be a sound way of determining what exists or does not exist rather I want to have empirical testing as to its existence. If your conceptualized statement is to be empirically tested it must be made of something that can be measured or detected, what are those measurements and how was it detected? What is it made of? If you cant do this then by your own words you have no reason to believe it, yet you do. Vividvividbleau
October 17, 2010
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And vivid, I'm afraid I don't understand your post either. Could you restate your question?Aleta
October 17, 2010
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Above, I don't understand what you wrote, especially the last paragraph, but if you or Stephen would like to be clearer about what you are meaning by "the law of causality", that would be useful. I originally was using the word proximate, and sometime even immediate. Yes, throughout this discussion, and I think this has been clear in my language, I have been using cause to refer to the moment-by-moment changes of states in the world, whereby a previous state causes the current state. So, please explain what meaning you think Stephen is using, or what you think is correct.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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Aleta, I think the reason you might be missing stephen on the law of causality has to do with your definition and understanding of the law of causality, which is basically the water-down notion of causality that came out of the so called enlightenment. I became evident to me in the following statement: "states immediately proceeding the event." Efficient cause is not based on prior state/event. Efficient cause in its traditional sense is rather different. I think the notion of cusality as it came to be namely by the influence of the era i mentioned is deplete!above
October 17, 2010
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aleta "I see no evidence that they exist, and I see no reason to choose they believe they do without any evidence." aleta how about empirically testing the above statement otherwise by your own standards you have no reason to believe it. Now I am not asking you to justify it I am asking for you to emperically test the concept itself. You know like how much does the above concept weigh? What is its width, depth and height? etc, etc. Vividvividbleau
October 17, 2010
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Correction in 305: a paragraph in there should say "The ocean cannot both be proud and not proud” – again logically correct, but in this case meaningless because pride is not a quality that applies to oceans. I apologize for all my mistakes. I spend what feels like too much time in these discussions, and then I neglect proofreading before I post.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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Steohen writes, "—Aleta: “Your argument is that because God created the capability for us to have free will, our free will choices are also caused.” Correct. –”But this again conflates other kinds of causes with efficient causes.” How?" Because when I make a choice, there is no immediate, proximate efficient cause of the particular choice I made. God made the universe, but once made the efficient causes of the things that happen are not God, but rather the states immediately proceeding the event. We don't say that God was the efficient cause of the tornado just because he made the universe. Simialrly, God made man's ability to choose, but once that ability is given, the choices are man's. My choice has no efficient cause - there is no set of prior events which caused my choice - that's what free means. If I were making my choice because God willed it so - if he were the efficient cause, then it wouldn't be my choice anymore - not free. If free will is genuine, then it must have the ability to be an uncaused cause - the ability to somehow move some particles in the world inside me without being caused itself by anything else.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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vivid asks, "If I understand you correctly when you say “testable” you mean empirical confirmation." Yes - ways that we can look to our experience (of all sorts: cognitive, emotional, inter-personal), and conclude that the experience confirms the assumption, to some degree our other. vivid writes, "If we were to have empirical confirmation that that particles pop into existence without a cause this would mean, at least at the quantum level, our assumptions about causality would have to be discarded?" Yes, although not sure that such could ever be empirically confirmed - this may "lie on the other side of the quantum curtain", and forever stay in the realm of metaphysical speculation. vivid writes, "For you, and correct me if I am wrong here, empirical ( testability) confirmation or disconfirmation is the only way we can know our assumptions are true?" That is only true of testable assumptions (I prefer the word hypotheses) - as I mentioned there are untestable ones. There are lots of things that we believe because we choose to believe them for ourself even if others choose to believe otherwise. I choose to believe the external world is really there, even though I can test that at all. More controversially, I choose to not believe in such things as heaven and hell, or reincarnation. I see no evidence that they exist, and I see no reason to choose they believe they do without any evidence. Also, we make and test hypotheses in all realms of our life, not just about the nature of the physical world: emotional, inter-personal, moral, etc. All of these contain elements of choice: we are constantly testing who we are choosing to be, and adjusting accordingly, even though our conclusions are more "subjective", about ourself as a person, than they are "objective". Now, to Stephen. Stephen wrotes, "If you are applying the logical PROCESS to obtain a truth about the real world, that is, if you are moving from premises to a conclusion, you must include sound statements about the world." Agreed. Good. Stephen writes, "HOWEVER, in order to apply the law of non-contradiction, which UNDERLIES the logical process, you need not have that same kind of information. Two examples: [a]The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances] can immediately be applied to the world with no factual imput. [Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist]." Let's take this one first. I could also write "Fluppel cannot both stoppel and not stoppel" and I would be logically correct: the law of non-contradiction applies to any statement that follows the correct form. I could also write "The ocean cannot both be proud and not proud" - again logically correct, but in this case meaningless because pride is a quality that applies to oceans. So, even in respect to the statement about Jupiter, we are using a model to move from something that is merely correct in logical form to something that is a meaningful statement about the world. Jupiter is a distinct, discrete entity that can all identify, and existence - having some duration in time and space, is also defined and applicable. So the statement is both logically correct and meaningful in respect to the world. However, we could have less clear situations in respect to both the identity or the meaning of existence. For instance, imagining looking at the sky - one moment it is completely clear, and then you notice a very little wisp of a cloud. At some point the cloud "came into existence" as a recognizable entity, but there is no clearcut criteria for when that happened in this case, our statement that the cloud cannot exist and not exist at the same time draws a line in reality, so to speak, that is not really there in the world - a line between when the cloud didn't exist and when it did. So in cases like this, our logic imposes a form on the world that helps us understand and think - it's an agreement about the concept of "existence" to which we then apply logic. Quantum events stretch this even further - in what sense does an electron "exist"? Or a quark, or a virtual anti-particle understood to be moving backwards in time? My point is that even in cases where the meanings are so clear and commonsensical, where are always appling our logic to a model of the world. And last, Stephen writes, "[b] The law of causality [nothing can begin to exist without a cause] can immediately be applied to the world world [concrete walls cannot just pop up in front your car on the highway without a cause]." The law of causality (I presume meaning every event has a proximate, efficient cause" is not a law of logic: it is not like the law of non-contradiction. Of course concrete walls don't pop up out of nowhere, but there is some reason to believe that both in human free will and at the quantum level the law of causality is not true. That's an empirical statement about the world. In both cases the hypothesis may be testable, or it may not: the question of whether both human free will and quantum events are caused or not may be untestable, and thus a metaphysical position that one can make a choice about. But there is no law that says, just because of the law, that human free will and quantum events have to be caused.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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---Aleta: "You are combining causes in a similar way in respect to free will, as has been pointed out by Green and me." How? --"Your argument is that because God created the capability for us to have free will, our free will choices are also caused." Correct. --"But this again conflates other kinds of causes with efficient causes." How?StephenB
October 17, 2010
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---Aleta: "That is the point I’m making: that to apply logic to the world, you have to start with some statements about the world, and logic itself can’t provide those true statement." If you are applying the logical PROCESS to obtain a truth about the real world, that is, if you are moving from premises to a conclusion, you must include sound statements about the world. [Jupiter is smaller than the Sun.] [The Sun is smaller than the Milky] Therefore, [Jupiter is smaller than the Milky Way]. Unless I know the first fact about the real world, I cannot reason my way to a sound conclusion. True enough. HOWEVER, in order to apply the law of non-contradiction, which UNDERLIES the logical process, you need not have that same kind of information. Two examples: [a]The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances] can immediately be applied to the world with no factual imput. [Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist]. [b] The law of causality [nothing can begin to exist without a cause] can immediately be applied to the world world [concrete walls cannot just pop up in front your car on the highway without a cause]. Please tell me that you understand the difference?StephenB
October 17, 2010
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aleta re 301 If I understand you correctly when you say "testable" you mean empirical confirmation. If we were to have empirical confirmation that that particles pop into existence without a cause this would mean, at least at the quantum level, our assumptions about causality would have to be discarded? For you, and correct me if I am wrong here, empirical ( testability) confirmation or disconfirmation is the only way we can know our assumptions are true? The only thing we can know to be objectively true is that which has been empiricaly confirmed? Vividvividbleau
October 17, 2010
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To above - yes, random does not necessarily mean uncaused. I used the phrase "true randomness" to imply an uncaused randomness. The word random is used in a lot of ways, some colloquial and some technical. To Vivid - I imagine we could spend some time discussing what all those mean at 293, but they would be a starting point. I think it might make sense to distinguish between testable and non-testable assumptions, as testable assumptions might more correctly be called starting hypotheses. For instance, I agree that we assume that the laws of nature apply uniformly throughout the universe, but this is in fact a testable hypotheses that evidence supports. Also, investigation has shown us that there are times or places (first millisecond of the universe, black holes) that conditions are so different that the laws behave quite differently. On the other hand, the assumption that the external world really exists (non-solipsism) is not testable, but we all agree on it as an assumption.Aleta
October 17, 2010
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No, I'm serious Above. Perhaps humilty, and the historically-approrpiate response to contrary evidence, are in need of a boost across the board.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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Upright, That's a little rough. It did make me laugh though. :)above
October 17, 2010
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@aleta -“No, this is an undecided issue: some believe that true randomness kies at the heart of QM, and other believe that there are causes, even though they may be forever beyond the reach of our investigation. Therefore, some interpretations wouuld deny causality, or in the language we have uses here, that quantum events are very small, local uncaused causes.” Of course there are different interpretations. Isn’t that why we are conversing? :) I would just like you note one thing… Just because something is random (allegedly) that does not make it uncaused. A random event can be caused.above
October 17, 2010
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... a - defense.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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Perhaps it would be make more sense to take a mirror to the lab instead of defense.Upright BiPed
October 17, 2010
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I have one Aleta, The assumption that you'll avoid your assumptions if you don't like the conclusions that flow from the evidence.Upright BiPed
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