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ID and Common Descent

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Many, many people seem to misunderstand the relationship between Intelligent Design and Common Descent. Some view ID as being equivalent to Progressive Creationism (sometimes called Old-Earth Creationism), others seeing it as being equivalent to Young-Earth Creationism. I have argued before that the core of ID is not about a specific theory of origins. In fact, many ID’ers hold a variety of views including Progressive Creationism and Young-Earth Creationism.

But another category that is often overlooked are those who hold to both ID and Common Descent, where the descent was purely naturalistic. This view is often considered inconsistent. My goal is to show how this is a consistent proposition.

I should start by noting that I do not myself hold to the Common Descent proposition. Nonetheless, I think that the relationship of ID to Common Descent has been misunderstood enough as to warrant some defense.

The issue is that most people understand common descent entirely from a Darwinian perspective. That is, they assume that the notion of natural selection and gradualism follow along closely to the notion of common descent. However, there is nothing that logically ties these together, especially if you allow for design.

In Darwinism, each feature is a selected accident. Therefore, Darwinian phylogenetic trees often use parsimony as a guide, meaning that it tries to construct a tree so that complex features don’t have to evolve more than once.

The ID version of common descent, however, doesn’t have to play by these rules. The ID version of common descent includes a concept known as frontloading – where the designer designed the original organism so that it would have sufficient information for its later evolution. If one allows for design, there is no reason to assume that the original organism must have been simple. It may in fact have been more complex than any existing organism. There are maximalist versions of this hypothesis, where the original organism had a superhuge genome, and minimalist versions of this hypothesis (such as from Mike Gene) where only the basic outlines of common patterns of pathways were present. Some have objected to the idea of a superhuge genome, on the basis that it isn’t biologically tenable. However, the amoeba has 100x the number of base pairs that a human has, so the carrying capacity of genetic information for a single-cell organism is quite large. I’m going to focus on views that tend towards the maximalist.

Therefore, because of this initial deposit, it makes sense that phylogenetic change would be sudden instead of gradual. If the genetic information already existed, or at least largely existed in the original organism, then time wouldn’t be the barrier for it to come about. It also means that multiple lineages could lead to the same result. There is no reason to think that there was one lineage that lead to tetrapods, for instance. If there were multiple lineages which all were carrying basically the same information, there is no reason why there weren’t multiple tetrapod lineages. It also explains why we find chimeras much more often than we find organs in transition. If the information was already in the genome, then the organ could come into existence all-at-once. It didn’t need to evolve, except to switch on.

Take the flagellum, for instance. Many people criticize Behe for thinking that the flagellum just popped into existence sometime in history, based on irreducible complexity. That is not the argument Behe is making. Behe’s point is that the flagellum, whenever it arose, didn’t arise through a Darwinian mechanism. Instead, it arose through a non-Darwinian mechanism. Perhaps all the components were there, waiting to be turned on. Perhaps there is a meta-language guided the piecing together of complex parts in the cell. There are numerous non-Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms which are possible, several of which have been experimentally demonstrated. [[NOTE – (I would define a mechanism as being non-Darwinian when the mechanism of mutation biases the mutational probability towards mutations which are potentially useful to the organism)]]

Behe’s actual view, as I understand it, actually pushes the origin of information back further. Behe believes that the information came from the original arrangement of matter in the Big Bang. Interestingly, that seems to comport well with the original conception of the Big Bang by LeMaitre, who described the universe’s original configuration as a “cosmic egg”. We think of eggs in terms of ontogeny – a child grows in a systematic fashion (guided by information) to become an adult. The IDists who hold to Common Descent often view the universe that way – it grew, through the original input of information, into an adult form. John A. Davison wrote a few papers on this possibility.

Thus the common ID claim of “sudden appearance” and “fully-formed features” are entirely consistent both with common descent (even fully materialistic) and non-common-descent versions of the theory, because the evolution is guided by information.

There are also interesting mixes of these theories, such as Scherer’s Basic Type Biology. Here, a limited form of common descent is taken, along with the idea that information is available to guide the further diversification of the basic type along specific lines (somewhat akin to Vavilov’s Law). Interestingly, there can also be a common descent interpretation of Basic Type Biology as well, but I’ll leave that alone for now.

Now, you might be saying that the ID form of common descent only involves the origin of life, and therefore has nothing to do with evolution. As I have argued before, abiogenesis actually has a lot to do with the implicit assumptions guiding evolutionary thought. And, as hopefully has been evident from this post, the mode of evolution from an information-rich starting point (ID) is quite different from that of an information-poor starting point (neo-Darwinism). And, if you take common descent to be true, I would argue that ID makes much better sense of what we see (the transitions seem to happen with some information about where they should go next).

Now, you might wonder why I disagree with the notion of common descent. There are several, but I’ll leave you with one I have been contemplating recently. I think that agency is a distinct form of causation from chance and law. That is, things can be done with intention and creativity which could not be done in complete absence of those two. In addition, I think that there are different forms of agency in operation throughout the spectrum of life (I am undecided about whether the lower forms of life such as plants and bacteria have anything which could be considered agency, but I think that, say, most land animals do). In any case, humans seem to engage in a kind of agency that is distinct from other creatures. Therefore, we are left with the question of the origin of such agency. While common descent in combination with ID can sufficiently answer the origin of information, I don’t think it can sufficiently answer the origin of the different kinds of agency.

Comments
I’m committed to civil and thoughtful discourse and I see that is not something I can expect from Joseph.
It's not something you can expect from anyone, so why pick on Joseph. He can no more expect it from you than you can expect it from him, though, to be perfectly frank, his view permits him to expect rational discourse from others, while your view provides no grounds whatever for such an expectation. iow, Joseph is at least being consistent, while you are not. Tell me, on your view of things, what is the basis for rational discourse?Mung
January 15, 2010
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CJYman -- nicely done regarding 126.tribune7
January 15, 2010
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Aleta -- I am saying that rejecting the pure chance hypothesis does not allow one to conclude design And you would be right. Go re-read my post 108 and see if our position becomes any clearer.tribune7
January 15, 2010
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Also Aleta, By "necessity" do you mean "determined" or "necessitated by material properties?"CJYman
January 15, 2010
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Hello Aleta, You stated, regarding CSI: "None of these calculations take into account either a series of events leading to an end result or possible inter-dependencies between components, so, as I said above, I don’t think they accurately model the real world." The calculation most definitely takes into account a series of events. It covers all chance events within available probabilistic resources, and if the calculation > 1 we have evidence that the series of events preceding the event in question are not random, but contain some element of either law and/or something else. Chance as an explanation: an event of leaves blowing around in your front yard. There is no independent pattern to formulate the event of where the leaves are positioned relative to each other. Thus, there is no correlation. Chance/randomness is a lack of correlation. Furthermore, the position of the leaves and their motion does not result from the material properties of the leaves themselves. There is no mathematical pattern to describe the position of the leaves in relation to each other. We can say that the event of the leaves blowing around in your yard is random, the pattern of leaves is arrived at by chance. Of course, there are laws "blowing around" in the background, indirectly affecting the leaves. This is why I don't see how "pure chance" can exist apart from law. However, the pattern of leaves we say does not show a lawful pattern and is thus "random" -- resulting by chance. Here is a more in-depth explanation of the difference between law and organization such as CSI: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/polanyi-and-ontogenetic-emergence/#comment-337588 As to the "inter-dependence" between components, are you referring to the forces that the components exert upon each other? If so, you are referring to the lawful forces of nature and it seems to me that CSI does not take law into consideration. A lawful event would be specified through compression. That is what a law is -- a mathematical description/algorithm/compression of regular events. That is why the explanatory filter is necessary. Think of ruling out "law" this way -- can this essay be defined by the laws of the components utilized (by either mathematical description of regularity and/or regularity resulting from the material/measurable properties of the components)? Basically it comes down to the difference between the following types of patterns, no matter the events preceding them ... ajdsjdhhfieperi -- best explained by chance (no correlation) aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa or agfdagfdagfdagfd -- best explained by chance + law (compressible) "Can you understand this" -- best explained by chance + law + intelligence (correlated/specified and improbable/complex) In fact, an evolutionary algorithm is the best example of chance, law, and intelligence working together. If you disagree with utilizing CSI as a hallmark of intelligence, then please just provide evidence of CSI produced from a random set of laws (laws + chance) absent any intelligent "fine tuning" for future results. Random.org could come in helpful for such an experiment. Will such a set up produce evolution and CSI?CJYman
January 15, 2010
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Oops - after reading Joseph's post at 123 I see that he is not someone I want to discuss things with. I'm committed to civil and thoughtful discourse and I see that is not something I can expect from Joseph.Aleta
January 15, 2010
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Joseph writes, "First it is a fire inspector that shows up and may or may not determine arson." Sorry - I wrote arson inspector - my bad. Joseph writes, "The explanatory filter mandates that not only chance and necessity be eliminated but also a specification be met." I understand the specification part, Joseph, but it's not relevant to my argument. My argument is that "necessity" has not been eliminated. I am also arguing that "necessity" is not being properly understood. P.S. - it's Aleta, not Alerta, although I am alert. :)Aleta
January 15, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis:
I’ll ask one more time before giving up,
You gave up before you started posting here. Guys don't waste your time with weasel man. He won't be satisfied until you introduce him to the designers. R0b, Alerta, Zachriel, MacNeill, the NCSE, the NAS- they are all the same. They can't support their position- all they have to do to falsify ID- so they have to pick on something until it gets infected and oozes puss.Joseph
January 15, 2010
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Alerta, First it is a fire inspector that shows up and may or may not determine arson. He/ she does that by going over the evidence.
This is what the arguments that I’m reading here are like: Creation by pure chance is impossible, therefore ID.
As I had told you before that is not how it goes. The explanatory filter mandates that not only chance and necessity be eliminated but also a specification be met. As for chromosomes- well they are more than just base pairs, you guys realize that, right?Joseph
January 15, 2010
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I'm afraid you are not understanding my point. I don't need for you to agree with my argument, but I would like you to understand my position. First, we agree that pure chance could not have created the chromosome. That is not an issue between us. But I disagree when you say that I am appealing to "unseen forces" and I disagree with the dichotomy that "It was either an unknown necessity of nature or design." I am saying that rejecting the pure chance hypothesis does not allow one to conclude design because things in the world never happen by pure chance anyway. Most things happen by known forces (not unknown ones) interacting in ways that, in part because of the contingent aspect of the history of events, lead to novel results. There doesn't have to be a "necessity" of nature for nature to produce something. The interplay of natural forces along intersecting causal chains of events is creative, and produces things which are contingent, not necessary - that is, they might not have happened, but they did. This fact about how things work needs to be recognized. An argument that doesn't take this into account will necessarily be faulty, I think. You ask, "Why do you reject design?" I haven't said whether I reject design or not. What I have said is that the argument that something couldn't have arisen by pure chance is not, in any way, a positive argument for design. Here is a somewhat flippant example, using an analogy commonly used by ID advocates. Suppose a house burns down and the arson inspector shows up. Imagine him saying, "Hmmm. The probability of all the particles in this house suddenly arranging themselves so as to cause the house to spontaneously completely burn into flames is impossibly low. Therefore I conclude arson." This is what the arguments that I'm reading here are like: Creation by pure chance is impossible, therefore ID. The argument is faulty. I reject this argument. Give me better evidence for design if you want to be convincing, but it would be useful, perhaps, for you to accurately understand what it is I reject, and why. By the way, I appreciate the civil and thoughtful discussion.Aleta
January 15, 2010
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Aleta, you are appealing to unseen forces to reject design. Pure chance could not have created the chromosome. It was either an unknown necessity of nature or design. Why do you reject design?tribune7
January 15, 2010
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I don't know. But the argument doesn't rise or fall on my lack of knowledge, or humankind's lack, for that matter. A calculation that doesn't take into account the basic structure of how things happen in the world, and just assumes pure chance, is not an accurate model of the world. That fact is true irrespective of whether someone else does or does not have a better model.Aleta
January 15, 2010
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None of these calculations take into account either a series of events leading to an end result or possible inter-dependencies between components, What are those series of events and inter-dependencies, Aleta?tribune7
January 15, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis @ 89:
That’s a red herring. I’m trying to understand the objective, positive evidence for ID.
If you believe that natural selection can imitate design, and if this belief is an objective belief, then you must have objective evidence for design. So why are you asking for something you already have or know? Of course, it's possible that you don't believe natural selection can imitate design. If this is so, why not just say so? It's also possible that you do believe natural selection can imitate design, but have no objective reason for believing it. If this is so, why not just say admit it?Mung
January 15, 2010
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I took a quick look at CJYman's post and it's more of the same simple combinatorics. None of these calculations take into account either a series of events leading to an end result or possible inter-dependencies between components, so, as I said above, I don't think they accurately model the real world.Aleta
January 15, 2010
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Mustela, I'd love to get into this again but at the moment I'm too busy. Wasn't it you that I already showed how to calculate CSI of the protein Titin? https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/what-is-intelligence/#comment-341828 So, if that was indeed you that I was responding to, why are you stating that "no one has yet provided an example of how to calculate it for a real biological system?" Or are you just being specific with the word "system." In that case, since biological systems are composed of proteins, then utilize the same calculation for all proteins in the system, do some research on the specificity of the system -- ratio of functional arrangements of proteins of that probability (information storage size) to non-functional -- and you are pretty much good to go. Hopefully I can get back to you and we can work out the CSI of a small biological system together after this weekend. BTW, your last comment at the link I've included above within this comment betrays your lack of understanding of the reality of the "fine tuning problem" in physics that many physicist have provided published papers to address. The question is: "out of all the mathematically possible values that could describe our laws, how are they in a "knife's edge" balance (especially the cosmological constant) in relation to each other in order for life to exist, develop, and evolve? CSI doesn't "take into consideration" that our universe is fine tuned for life, since it is indeed the type of calculation that *shows us* that our universe is fine tuned for the evolution of life. CSI is the evidence of evolution (barring direct intervention) and evolution is the evidence of previous intelligence.CJYman
January 15, 2010
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Fair enough. Do you not believe in the ID position? Firstly, I believe ID is a worthy attempt describe nature. To get to the specifics: Regarding Tenet 1: I do believe design has unique characteristics, that this is obvious and it should be considered axiomatic Regarding Tenet 2: I believe these characteristics are quantifiable and that, since Tenet 1 should be held as axiomatically true, to say otherwise is rather anti-science. Now, as I think I said in a later post, whether ID succeeds in this quantification is TBD, but it certainly is an honest attempt. Regarding Tenet 3: I believe that because these characteristics are quantifiable some things can conclusively be shown to have been designed. Again whether IDs methods have successfully done so is TBD. And to really understand CSI, rather than challenging me, check out what Dembski says about it himself at DesignInference.Com or even shell out some money for one of his books.tribune7
January 15, 2010
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johnnyb, As an aside, I took some time to read a little bit of your work, and I think it's among the best I've seen from the ID or Creationism position. I regard you, along with others like Atom and vjtorley, as a credit to your side of the debate. Your point regarding standard mutational theory is well taken. As a measure of how far somatic hypermutation deviates from the "mutation is random with respect to fitness" generalization, active info seems appropriate. Your example is a good one, and I stand corrected. With regards to other points, some measures (temperature, length, etc.) require no modeling. If we were to define those measures operationally, we could do so in terms of physical systems rather than mathematical abstractions. I think that active info is not such a measure. Given a search space, a subset of that space designated as the target, and a method for selecting points in the space, active info is unambiguous. But if we need to impose the space/target/method model on a given system, our choice of how to do so may depend on what question we're trying to answer. For example, the question of how far somatic hypermutation deviates from the "mutation is random with respect to fitness" generalization yields a different model than the question of whether mutations are uniformly random across the 600-base variable region. Thank you for a good discussion and for showing useful application of the active info concept.R0b
January 15, 2010
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tribune7 at 110, For instance in post 5 I did not “claim that designed artifacts have unique characteristics,” etc. What I said was “ID says is that things that are designed have unique characteristics;” etc. A significant difference especially since the post was made in response to a mischaracterization of ID. Fair enough. Do you not believe in the ID position? But let’s consider these tenets: are you saying that things that are designed don’t have unique characteristics? I'm not the one claiming there is or isn't. I've been trying to get someone to clearly define such a characteristic so that it can be measured. Then we can see if it exists or not. CSI is supposed to be one such characteristic, but no one has yet provided an example of how to calculate it for a real biological system. I'm open to considering other measurements if you prefer.Mustela Nivalis
January 15, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis --Please demonstrate how to measure a characteristic of a biological system or component in order to determine whether or not it is designed. See posts 95 & 107 or 54 which address your concerns about not accounting for "known evolutionary mechanisms"tribune7
January 15, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis -- So, you claim that designed artifacts have unique characteristics, that these characteristics can be quantified, and that CSI is a mechanism for doing so. The only way I, personally, would make such strongly stated assertions would be if I could readily demonstrate their veracity. LOLOL. I missed this one. Maybe your primary concern should be reading comprehension rather than trying to understand CSI. For instance in post 5 I did not "claim that designed artifacts have unique characteristics," etc. What I said was "ID says is that things that are designed have unique characteristics;" etc. A significant difference especially since the post was made in response to a mischaracterization of ID. But let's consider these tenets: are you saying that things that are designed don't have unique characteristics?tribune7
January 15, 2010
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tribune7 at 107, I'll ask one more time before giving up, just in case: Please demonstrate how to measure a characteristic of a biological system or component in order to determine whether or not it is designed. I’d be delighted if you showed how to measure CSI, but any quantifiable characteristic that uniquely identifies design will do. If you can't, please just say so.Mustela Nivalis
January 15, 2010
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To Collin at 104: Hi Collin. This is really just the same situation as the base pairs in a chromosome situation in that it assumes that all the sub-events (each letter showing up in a particular position in a string of letters) happen simultaneously with and independently of each other. While the shaking of the letters follows the laws of physics, the relationship between each letter, and any relationship this might have with the English langauge, is a matter of chance. (Actually, since the scrabble set has the number of tiles for each letter in approximate proportion to their use in English, this is weighted a bit towards English words occurring, but that doesn't change the basic situation.) And since this is just another example of "pure chance", my response is the same as before - this doesn't help us any in thinking about what goes on in the real world because that's not how real world events happen. Real world events don't happen by having a bunch of completely independents things just coincidentally happen together at the same time. Real world events happen by having various things in causal relationships with both prior states and local neighbors in space interacting with each other. This is not a pure chance situation. The "pure chance" situation (be it scrabble tiles or dice or base pairs) is not an accurate model of the world, and therefore it can't be used to argue about the world.Aleta
January 15, 2010
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Aleta-- Specificity is used in the design inference, but that is separate from just calculating the probability based on the pure chance hypotheis. Not quite. For instance I am stipulating the existence of the bases, the backbone chain, that the required chemical bonding will happen etc. What I'm calculating the probability for is whether the bases can self-organize into the necessary information for the smallest known genome to function. And remember, this genome belongs to an endosymbiotic organism. And don't discount the need for specificity in making my point. For instance, the odds of one particular snowflake falling on one particular square inch of Alaska at a particular instant would be beyond the UPB but it happens all the time. But suppose if one should shout out before hand when and where that particular snowflake should fall, would you attribute that to chance? Or suppose, after one particular snowfall, the snow spelled out the words "ID Rocks". Would that make you go hmmmm? That would be more akin to the chromosome.tribune7
January 15, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis -- See Allen MacNeill’s blog post, referenced previously, for some examples. Referenced previously and addressed previously, see Post 54. Which as a nice guy I will repeat: Two points (regarding MacNeill's mechanisms): 1. Those mechanisms are ultimately effects of chance according to Darwinism but that doesn’t really matter because . . . 2. All those mechanisms depend on the pre-existence of chromosomes. So it seems that chromosome stands as example of a biological entity exhibiting CSI since it has complex specificity and the probability of it occurring by chance is greater than 1 in 10^150.tribune7
January 15, 2010
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Weasel Man:
So, you claim that designed artifacts have unique characteristics, that these characteristics can be quantified, and that CSI is a mechanism for doing so.
Do you think that archaeologists and forensic scientists just flip a coin to determine design or not? Take any biological system- the bacterial flagellum for example. Find out what it takes- genetically- to make one- each nucleotide would be two bits (not 25 cents). Then to refute the design inference for that all you would have to do is demonstrate that blind, undirected processes can account for it. If they can then you eliminate the requirement for a designer and falsify the design inference.Joseph
January 15, 2010
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Alerta:
I am arguing that you can’t jump conclusively to a design inference just because a pure chance hypothesis is ruled out (irrespective of the specificity issue.)
BINGO!!! If one follows the process set forth in the explanatory filter, to reach a design inference it is NOT enough to eliminate chance and necessity (and their interactions). Once those have been eliminated a specification must be met- even if that is as simple as "it looks designed".Joseph
January 15, 2010
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Aleta, Let me probe your mind a little. If I had a scrabble game, and I shook the box with the letters, and when I set it down the letters formed a sentence in english. Was that chance or law or both? How do you calculate it?Collin
January 15, 2010
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Aleta: "Tribune’s calculation is based on the “pure chance hypothesis,”" Tribune: "No, aleta, it also includes specificity." I don't think specificity has anything do with the calculation itself - the calculation is just the probability that the base pairs would be exactly in the order that they are. Specificity is used in the design inference, but that is separate from just calculating the probability based on the pure chance hypotheis. Aleta: "that a calculation that such things could not have happened by pure chance does not imply that they couldn’t have occurred via natural processes." Tribune: "Which are unknown. IOW, your rebuttal is basically design could not have happened. Why do you think that?" No, I have not said anything about whether design could or could not have happened. I am making a more limited point: irrespective of the state of our knowledge about how something might have arisen, a calculation that it arose by pure chance is irrelevant, because that is not the way natural processes work. I am arguing that you can't jump conclusively to a design inference just because a pure chance hypothesis is ruled out (irrespective of the specificity issue.) This doesn't mean that design might not have happened, but it does mean we may need to stay in a state of not knowing unless and until more positive evidence comes about.Aleta
January 15, 2010
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tribune7 at 100 and 101, And what were those know evolutionary mechanisms again? See Allen MacNeill's blog post, referenced previously, for some examples. "Tribune’s calculation is based on the 'pure chance hypothesis,'" No, aleta, it also includes specificity. No, you never described that part of the calculation. I'm genuinely interested in learning enough about CSI to be able to calculate it, but you are giving me the impression that you're not interested in actually showing me how to do so. Back at 5 you stated: What ID says is that things that are designed have unique characteristics; these characteristics are quantifiable; and because these characteristics are quantifiable some things can conclusively be shown to have been designed. At 24 you stated that: CSI is certainly a respectable attempt to quantify those characteristics. So, you claim that designed artifacts have unique characteristics, that these characteristics can be quantified, and that CSI is a mechanism for doing so. The only way I, personally, would make such strongly stated assertions would be if I could readily demonstrate their veracity. Please demonstrate how to measure a characteristic of a biological system or component in order to determine whether or not it is designed. I'd be delighted if you showed how to measure CSI, but any "quantifiable" and "unique" characteristic will do.Mustela Nivalis
January 15, 2010
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