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ID and Common Descent

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Many, many people seem to misunderstand the relationship between Intelligent Design and Common Descent. Some view ID as being equivalent to Progressive Creationism (sometimes called Old-Earth Creationism), others seeing it as being equivalent to Young-Earth Creationism. I have argued before that the core of ID is not about a specific theory of origins. In fact, many ID’ers hold a variety of views including Progressive Creationism and Young-Earth Creationism.

But another category that is often overlooked are those who hold to both ID and Common Descent, where the descent was purely naturalistic. This view is often considered inconsistent. My goal is to show how this is a consistent proposition.

I should start by noting that I do not myself hold to the Common Descent proposition. Nonetheless, I think that the relationship of ID to Common Descent has been misunderstood enough as to warrant some defense.

The issue is that most people understand common descent entirely from a Darwinian perspective. That is, they assume that the notion of natural selection and gradualism follow along closely to the notion of common descent. However, there is nothing that logically ties these together, especially if you allow for design.

In Darwinism, each feature is a selected accident. Therefore, Darwinian phylogenetic trees often use parsimony as a guide, meaning that it tries to construct a tree so that complex features don’t have to evolve more than once.

The ID version of common descent, however, doesn’t have to play by these rules. The ID version of common descent includes a concept known as frontloading – where the designer designed the original organism so that it would have sufficient information for its later evolution. If one allows for design, there is no reason to assume that the original organism must have been simple. It may in fact have been more complex than any existing organism. There are maximalist versions of this hypothesis, where the original organism had a superhuge genome, and minimalist versions of this hypothesis (such as from Mike Gene) where only the basic outlines of common patterns of pathways were present. Some have objected to the idea of a superhuge genome, on the basis that it isn’t biologically tenable. However, the amoeba has 100x the number of base pairs that a human has, so the carrying capacity of genetic information for a single-cell organism is quite large. I’m going to focus on views that tend towards the maximalist.

Therefore, because of this initial deposit, it makes sense that phylogenetic change would be sudden instead of gradual. If the genetic information already existed, or at least largely existed in the original organism, then time wouldn’t be the barrier for it to come about. It also means that multiple lineages could lead to the same result. There is no reason to think that there was one lineage that lead to tetrapods, for instance. If there were multiple lineages which all were carrying basically the same information, there is no reason why there weren’t multiple tetrapod lineages. It also explains why we find chimeras much more often than we find organs in transition. If the information was already in the genome, then the organ could come into existence all-at-once. It didn’t need to evolve, except to switch on.

Take the flagellum, for instance. Many people criticize Behe for thinking that the flagellum just popped into existence sometime in history, based on irreducible complexity. That is not the argument Behe is making. Behe’s point is that the flagellum, whenever it arose, didn’t arise through a Darwinian mechanism. Instead, it arose through a non-Darwinian mechanism. Perhaps all the components were there, waiting to be turned on. Perhaps there is a meta-language guided the piecing together of complex parts in the cell. There are numerous non-Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms which are possible, several of which have been experimentally demonstrated. [[NOTE – (I would define a mechanism as being non-Darwinian when the mechanism of mutation biases the mutational probability towards mutations which are potentially useful to the organism)]]

Behe’s actual view, as I understand it, actually pushes the origin of information back further. Behe believes that the information came from the original arrangement of matter in the Big Bang. Interestingly, that seems to comport well with the original conception of the Big Bang by LeMaitre, who described the universe’s original configuration as a “cosmic egg”. We think of eggs in terms of ontogeny – a child grows in a systematic fashion (guided by information) to become an adult. The IDists who hold to Common Descent often view the universe that way – it grew, through the original input of information, into an adult form. John A. Davison wrote a few papers on this possibility.

Thus the common ID claim of “sudden appearance” and “fully-formed features” are entirely consistent both with common descent (even fully materialistic) and non-common-descent versions of the theory, because the evolution is guided by information.

There are also interesting mixes of these theories, such as Scherer’s Basic Type Biology. Here, a limited form of common descent is taken, along with the idea that information is available to guide the further diversification of the basic type along specific lines (somewhat akin to Vavilov’s Law). Interestingly, there can also be a common descent interpretation of Basic Type Biology as well, but I’ll leave that alone for now.

Now, you might be saying that the ID form of common descent only involves the origin of life, and therefore has nothing to do with evolution. As I have argued before, abiogenesis actually has a lot to do with the implicit assumptions guiding evolutionary thought. And, as hopefully has been evident from this post, the mode of evolution from an information-rich starting point (ID) is quite different from that of an information-poor starting point (neo-Darwinism). And, if you take common descent to be true, I would argue that ID makes much better sense of what we see (the transitions seem to happen with some information about where they should go next).

Now, you might wonder why I disagree with the notion of common descent. There are several, but I’ll leave you with one I have been contemplating recently. I think that agency is a distinct form of causation from chance and law. That is, things can be done with intention and creativity which could not be done in complete absence of those two. In addition, I think that there are different forms of agency in operation throughout the spectrum of life (I am undecided about whether the lower forms of life such as plants and bacteria have anything which could be considered agency, but I think that, say, most land animals do). In any case, humans seem to engage in a kind of agency that is distinct from other creatures. Therefore, we are left with the question of the origin of such agency. While common descent in combination with ID can sufficiently answer the origin of information, I don’t think it can sufficiently answer the origin of the different kinds of agency.

Comments
Mustela, sorry I missed 138. Regarding Tenet 1: I do believe design has unique characteristics, that this is obvious and it should be considered axiomatic . . .You’ve just attempted to assume away the part of your claim that is most difficult to support. What, exactly, are these unique characteristics? How, exactly, can they be measured?, It isn't assuming away anything. It's stating a starting principle i.e. Design has unique characteristics. Once we agree upon that we can start discussing what those characteristics might be. Turn it around: Design does not have unique characteristics. Can you advocate for that position?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Aleta:
This is why Mustela and others are asking for a method – one that can be reliably used by any interested party, to measure the CSI of a biological entity.
The method has been provided. For living organisms find the minimal genome required, count the nucleotides. Each nucleotide is equal to 2 bits. CSI is present if there 500 bits or more*. (* may be a little lower) For the bacterial flagellum- same thing. Find the sequences responsible for its construction and count the bits.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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Aleta, did you read the description of CSI in the glossery?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 151, "I believe the issue that both Mustela and I are interested in is how ID advocates propose to measure the qualities (CSI, or whatver)" Actually, we need to start one step further, with my first question from 138: tribune7 at 115, "Regarding Tenet 1: I do believe design has unique characteristics, that this is obvious and it should be considered axiomatic" You’ve just attempted to assume away the part of your claim that is most difficult to support. What, exactly, are these unique characteristics? Once those are identified, we can get to the second question of how, exactly, they can be measured. Aleta, there is a very detailed explanation in the glossary, which might be exactly what you are looking for The glossary does not define CSI with sufficient rigor to apply it to a real biological system or component, nor does it provide references to worked examples of doing so. I'm very interested in your answers to my 138.Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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I'm arguing that all the calculations that ID advocates provide to measure a quantity (CSI et al) that can be used to infer design are irrelevant because they do not model the real world accurately. Here's an example to provide some more detail to explain what I mean. Throw 10 dice. What is the probability that they will be all sixes? Easy problem: (1/6) ^ 10 = 1 out of 60,000,000, approximately Harder problem: The ten dice are in a box which periodically jiggles hard enough to toss all the dice. However, the sides with a 1 on it are sticky, so if a dice comes up six, it sticks. Now the box jiggles five times. What is the probability that after five jiggles you have all sixes. This is more complicated. First, for any one throw you need to calculate the probability of getting no sixes, one six, two sixes, etc., so you have to use the binomial probability theorem. Then, for each subsequent throw you have a different number of dice being jiggled (ten if no sixes, 9 if one six,etc.), so you have both a continued use of the binomial probability theorem and a complex probability tree that branches ten times on the first throw and some varying numbers on each of the subsequent throws. This second situation is more like the real world: it has a sequence of events (it models the passage of time in a very simple way) and it has laws (the one side sticks) that add an element of direction and selection. At a vastly more complicated level, this is what ID advocates needs to be trying to do if they want to meaningingfully provide a probability calculation that might imply design. Such calculations need to take into account a sequence of steps over time and they need to take into account that various laws of physics and chemistry create changes along those series of steps that then change the types of changes that can further happen. Only by trying to do such will ID advocates being working towards an accurate mathematical model of the world. This is why Mustela and others are asking for a method - one that can be reliably used by any interested party, to measure the CSI of a biological entity. Until such a method is developed, shared, and tested by multiple sources, the idea of CSI will be unusable.Aleta
January 16, 2010
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h.pesoj For a biological item not designed, maybe a dead twig blown randomly to the ground -- after it died and was on the ground. But whatever the DNA had coded for would be designed.tribune7
January 16, 2010
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h.pesoj --The first answer to that question is that you cannot provide the two examples I’m asking for in 140. I'm respecting you enough not to treat you as stupid. There have been examples posted on this thread - chromosomes and proteins. Why do you think ID fails when it indicates them to be designed?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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I believe the issue that both Mustela and I are interested in is how ID advocates propose to measure the qualities (CSI, or whatver) Aleta, there is a very detailed explanation in the glossary, which might be exactly what you are looking for tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7,
OK, then. ID is an attempt to do so. You think it fails. Why?
The first answer to that question is that you cannot provide the two examples I'm asking for in 140.h.pesoj
January 16, 2010
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Tribune, I believe the issue that both Mustela and I are interested in is how ID advocates propose to measure the qualities (CSI, or whatver) that supposedly support the design inference. As far as I can tell the only such calculations that have been done are very simple ones involving the multiplication rule for independent events, and these, as I am arguing, are not an accurate model of how things in the world come to be. Later in the day, when I have more time, I'll provide an example I've been thinking about to provide some more details.Aleta
January 16, 2010
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That it exists, of course. That it is quantifiable? Of course. OK, then. ID is an attempt to do so. You think it fails. Why?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Tribune7
Do you agree that design exists and is quantifiable?
That it exists, of course. That it is quantifiable? Of course. That it has been quantified? No. Not yet. Perhaps never. Just give me the examples, and we'll see then, won't we?h.pesoj
January 16, 2010
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and now h.pesoj, which, of course, is just my name spelled backwards. LOL. Good catch Joseph.tribune7
January 16, 2010
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h.pesoj -- Can you give an example of a biological object that was designed . . That's what the debate's about isn't it? Do you agree that design exists and is quantifiable?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Ooops, almost forgot- Don't feed the TROLLS!Joseph
January 16, 2010
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h.pesoj- RotFLMAO- We have the weasel man Mustela Nivalis, and now h.pesoj, which, of course, is just my name spelled backwards. IOW we have TROLLS! :cool:Joseph
January 16, 2010
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Aleta, What you call chance I would call merely further along the continuum of interconnectivity. I mean, when you go further back in time, the english language and scrabble have the same causes, dovetailing into the Big Bang. I don't really see them as independent or dependent. If you were present at the Big Bang, and were to calculate the chance of a chromosome arising, it would be the same as shaking a boggle cube (and its boggle not scrabble, my bad). Listen, I think that if we follow your analysis then we take all the physical factors out of the chance category and put them in the law category (or some other category which seems to me to be an ill-defined category), including 1. The earth being in the "goldilocks zone" 2. Just enough oxygen in the atmosphere 3. an RNA world etc etc etc. All of those physical law and events and factors being precisely in the right place at the right time to create a chromosome, is pure chance.Collin
January 16, 2010
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I do believe design has unique characteristics, that this is obvious and it should be considered axiomatic
Can you give an example of a biological object that was a) designed b) not designed ? If you can, can you explain how that was determined? I'm aware of DBB and the bac. flag example. Do you have another, or is it just the one? Also, for each example of a designed and a not-designed object could you state the value for the CSI or FSCI (ideally both) in each of those objects? Or, failing all that, can you tell me the CSI or FSCI for anything at all, biological or not? Let's bring out some facts to base this on. Maths is a good start. What units is FSCI measured in?h.pesoj
January 16, 2010
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CJYman at 116, Mustela, I’d love to get into this again but at the moment I’m too busy. Nice to see you posting again. I look forward to discussing this with you when you have the time. Wasn’t it you that I already showed how to calculate CSI of the protein Titin? Well, you claimed to compute the CSI of titin, but you had to leave the thread before you explained how to objectively determine the specification. Your calculation also boiled down to little more the naive calculation of 2 to the power of the length of the genome. Without the specification and without taking into consideration known physics, chemistry, and evolutionary mechanisms, your example didn't actually show how to calculate CSI. I'd be very interested in hearing your response to the issues raised in that thread.Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 115, Regarding Tenet 1: I do believe design has unique characteristics, that this is obvious and it should be considered axiomatic You've just attempted to assume away the part of your claim that is most difficult to support. What, exactly, are these unique characteristics? How, exactly, can they be measured?Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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Joseph
Scientists have to work with the knowledge currently available.
Given that, what is better supported by the available evidence? ID or your "chance" theory? There isn't any genetic gata which we could use to test that premise of descent with modification can lead to the diversity of life from some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms. Yet the "theory" of evolution is considered scientific.h.pesoj
January 16, 2010
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Joseph, I disagree with that. IOW it's never been shown that chance is even capable of creating the transformations required to create complex life forms. For example, is there genetic any data which would demonstrate that the transformations required, if cetaceans evolved from land mammals, are even possible? IOW is there any way to test te premise (that cetaceans evolved from land mammals) without first assuming it? Can you provide that proof?h.pesoj
January 16, 2010
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Aleta, Scientists have to work with the knowledge currently available. They cannot and do not wait for what the future may or may not uncover. All scientific inferences may indeed by faulty but that is the nature of the beast.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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Chance alone is at the source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, is at the very root of the stupendous edifice of creation.-Nobel Prize-winning chemist Jacques Monod
Joseph
January 16, 2010
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Edit: The confused sentence above "The reason is that no one thinks that pure things come into existence anyway, so eliminating the pure chance hypothesis adds nothing to what we already know." should read "The reason is that no one thinks that things come into existence through pure chance anyway, so eliminating the pure chance hypothesis adds nothing to what we already know.Aleta
January 16, 2010
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to Tribune at 128 You write, "Aleta — I am saying that rejecting the pure chance hypothesis does not allow one to conclude design. And you would be right. Go re-read my post 108 and see if our position becomes any clearer." I understand the role of specification in ID theory, but I've said it's not relevant to my point. I can rewite the above sentence this way, if you like: "I am saying that rejecting the pure chance hypothesis, even if the configuration in question is specified, does not allow one to conclude design." The reason is that no one thinks that pure things come into existence anyway, so eliminating the pure chance hypothesis adds nothing to what we already know. Even if the pure chance hypothesis is eliminated, the hypothesis that some series of contingent natural events are the cause of the thing in question has not been eliminated, so jumping to the conclusion of design is not warranted. And, to repeat myself, eliminating the "natural processes" hypothesis is not just simply a matter of claiming there is no known law that would produce the thing in question, or that some "unknown force" needs to be invoked to make it necessary, which are the ideas that have been offered in this discussion. The world is more complex than that, and until ID theorists take a stab at trying to calculate probabilities based on a realistic model of how the world works, arguments based on probablities will be faulty.Aleta
January 16, 2010
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I've been reading the FAQ, and I'm not sure of the relationship between FSCI and CSI. Are there any further resources available (google suggests it's an oil company) or could somebody explain the relationship between FSCI and CSI with an example? It's odd, from what I understand of FSCI from the FQA, that it's not been mentioned on this thread in conjunction with CSI.
So, since in the cases of known origin such are invariably the result of design, it is confidently but provisionally inferred that FSCI is a reliable sign of intelligent design.
This is very interesting stuff indeed! Is there a list of objects and their values for FSCI available? What units is FSCI measured in? I was not able to determine that from the FAQ.h.pesoj
January 16, 2010
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VMARTIN:
Scherer departed from Discovery Institute and his career in Germany seems quite impressive. Anyway he follows ID movement with great sympathy as he wrote in an interview 2 year ago.
Prof. Scherer's position is not really clear. Following his interviews I get the impression that he is floating with the tide and that his statements depend on the audience he is addressing: On the one hand he believes that the bible is literally true (Biblische Schöpfungslehre). On the other hand he says that the Bible interpretation of "US creationists" (his words) is wrong although he published young earth articles (e.g.: "To much coal for a young earth?"). On his "Wort und Wissen" web pages you will also find articles about the size of Noah's arch (though not authored by Prof. Scherer). At the same time he dismisses ID (he stated "ID is not science and shouldn't be taught in schools”), creationism as well as evolution theory. Thus, one has to wonder what his "Biblische Schöpfungslehre" actually is about. BTW, I always thought VMartin is just another blogging identity of Prof. Davison.osteonectin
January 15, 2010
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Aleta@122:
First, we agree that pure chance could not have created the chromosome. That is not an issue between us.
1. Why not? 2. What else is there?
I haven’t said whether I reject design or not.
So why not say? Why would it be unreasonable for someone to think that you do? If you don't reject design, where do you see it, and how do you recognise it?Mung
January 15, 2010
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Aleta:
My argument is that “necessity” has not been eliminated.
Only someone who requires absolute proof would say something like that. There is nothing to discuss with someone like that.
I am also arguing that “necessity” is not being properly understood.
Hawkings says that the laws that govern nature "Just are (the way they are)" Briefer History of Time"- what else is there to understand? :) Thoughtful discourse my ....Joseph
January 15, 2010
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