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ID Breakthrough — Syn61 marks a live case of intelligent design of a life form

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Let’s read the Nature abstract:


Nature (2019) Article | Published: 15 May 2019

Total synthesis of Escherichia coli with a recoded genome
Julius Fredens, Kaihang Wang, Daniel de la Torre, Louise F. H. Funke, Wesley E. Robertson, Yonka Christova, Tiongsun Chia, Wolfgang H. Schmied, Daniel L. Dunkelmann, Václav Beránek, Chayasith Uttamapinant, Andres Gonzalez Llamazares, Thomas S. Elliott & Jason W. Chin
Abstract
Nature uses 64 codons to encode the synthesis of proteins from the genome, and chooses 1 sense codon—out of up to 6 synonyms—to encode each amino acid. Synonymous codon choice has diverse and important roles, and many synonymous substitutions are detrimental. Here we demonstrate that the number of codons used to encode the canonical amino acids can be reduced, through the genome-wide substitution of target codons by defined synonyms. We create a variant of Escherichia coli with a four-megabase synthetic genome through a high-fidelity convergent total synthesis. Our synthetic genome implements a defined recoding and refactoring scheme—with simple corrections at just seven positions—to replace every known occurrence of two sense codons and a stop codon in the genome. Thus, we recode 18,214 codons to create an organism with a 61-codon genome; this organism uses 59 codons to encode the 20 amino acids, and enables the deletion of a previously essential transfer RNA. [Cited, per fair use doctrine for academic, non commercial purposes.]

Let us refresh memory on the genetic code:

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

And on the DNA:

The DNA Helix with GCAT (HT: Research Gate, fair use)

Then also, protein synthesis:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

Phys dot org gives some context:

A team of researchers at Cambridge University has replaced the genes of E. coli bacteria with genomes they synthesized in the lab. In their paper published in the journal Nature, the group describes replacing the genome and removing redundant genetic codes [–> three letter 4-state elements have 64 possibilities but only 20 are needed for typical protein AA’s, AUG codes for an AA and serves as START, there are three STOP codons] . . . . In this new effort, the researchers had two goals: The first was to synthesize the genome of an E. coli bacterium in their lab—all four million letters of it. The second was to find out what would happen to such a specimen if some of its DNA redundancies were removed . . . .

The researchers report that it took longer for the special bacterial specimen to grow, but other than that, it behaved just like unedited specimens. They suggest that in future efforts, it might be possible to replace the redundancies they removed with other sequences to create bacteria with special abilities, such as making new types of biopolymers not found in nature.

In short, they confirmed that the choice of “synonym” has a regulatory effect.

Where are we today, then?

First, we have definitive demonstration of the intelligent design of a genome. Yes, they obviously have not created a de novo cell body (a much more difficult task), but we see that intelligent design of life here definitively passes the Newton test of observed actual cause. Further, we see that DNA functions as an information system in the cell, supporting the significance of this conceptual representation, based on Yockey’s work:

I add: Let’s zoom in on Yockey’s contribution, on the code-communication system as applied to protein synthesis, which underscores the linguistic nature of what is involved:

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

Where, Crick understood this from the beginning in 1953, witness p. 5 of his letter to his son Michael, March 19, 1953:

Crick’s letter

At this stage, we definitively know that using nanotech molecular biology and linked computational techniques it is feasible to construct a genome based on intelligently directed configuration. AKA, design.

Therefore, intelligent design, as of right not sufferance, sits at the table for study on origin of life and of body plans.

Where, we separately know on configuration space search challenge, that it is maximally implausible to construct in excess of 500 – 1,000 bits of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information. As a reminder:

We are now in a different ball game completely: Intelligent Design of life is demonstrated to be feasible and actual in the here and now, as of this investigation. Therefore, as of right, it is a serious candidate to explain what we see in the world of life; especially as regards origin of cell based life and origin of main body plans.

Going forward, we are now a full-fledged independent school of thought. END

PS: James Tour on the Mystery of Life’s Origin, challenging the usual OoL claims, focus from c. 8:30 on:

PPS: It seems we need to understand that there are such things as DNA Synthesisers. Here, is a sample, the “Dr Oligo”:

Biocyclopedia lays out the architecture:

Clipping the explanation:

Recently, fully automated commercial instrument called automated polynucleotide synthesizer or gene machine is available in market which synthesizes predetermined polynucleotide sequence. Therefore, the genes can be synthesized rapidly and in high amount. For example, a gene for tRNA can be synthesized within a few days through gene machine. It automatically synthesizes the short segments of single stranded DNA under the control of microprocessor. The working principle of a gene machine includes (i) development of insoluble silica based support in the form of beads which provides support for solid phase synthesis of DNA chain, and (ii) development of stable deoxyribonucleoside phosphoramidites as synthons which are stable to oxidation and hydrolysis, and ideal for DNA synthesis.

The mechanism of a gene machine is shown in Fig. 2.14 [–> above]. Four separate reservoirs containing nucleotides (A,T,C and G) are connected with a tube to a cylinder (synthesizer column) packed with small silica beads. These beads provide support for assembly of DNA molecules. Reservoirs for reagent and solvent are also attached. The whole procedure of adding or removing the chemicals from the reagent reservoir in time is controlled by microcomputer control system i.e. microprocessor . . . .

The desired sequence is entered on a key board and the microprocessor automatically opens the valve of nucleotide reservoir, and chemical and solvent reservoir. In the gene machine the nucleotides are added into a polynucleotide chain at the rate of two nucleotides per hour. By feeding the instructions of human insulin gene in gene machine, human insulin has been synthesized.

As in, molecular nanotech lab in action.

PPPS: As objectors have raised the claimed logical, inductive inference that designing intelligences are embodied (which we can safely hold, implicitly “lives” in the context of the presumed, evolutionary materialistic account of origins — of cosmos, matter, life, body plans, man, brains and minds), I first link a discussion of how this undermines rationality, by Craig:

I also put on the table the Smith, two-tier supervisory controller bio-cybernetic model, as a context to discuss embodiment, intelligence and computational substrates, first in simplified form:

The Derek Smith two-tier controller cybernetic model

Then, in more full detail:

This then leads to the gap between computation on a substrate and rational contemplation. That is, Reppert’s point holds:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

Comments
KF, it certainly looks like people are siding with BB over you on this pointless debate. Sometimes, when everyone disagrees with you, even your supporters (where are they, by the way?), a wise man would admit defeat. Or, at least, admit that they were wrong.Ed George
May 28, 2019
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Hazel, please note that my inference is limited to embodied beings (not material beings). That is why I am mystified by KF’s emotional reaction to my proposed inference. OK, to be honest, I’m not mystified. I completely expected it. But I expected it because I know that KF’s ID inference has never acknowledged the possibility that the designer isn’t his God.Brother Brian
May 28, 2019
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Hazel, and please note that my inference is limited to embodied beings (not material beings). That is why I am mystified by KF’s emotional reaction to my proposed inference. OK, to be honest, I’m not mystified. I completely expected it. But I expected it because I know that KF’s ID inference has never acknowledged the possibility that the designer isn’t his God.Brother Brian
May 28, 2019
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kf writes, "a: See the ideologically loaded, question-begging inference that human beings are material as opposed to embodied entities?" kf, Dave pointed out a long time ago that human beings are definitely material beings, but saying that does not mean they are exclusively materials beings: I for one believe that our minds, which are part of our being, are immaterial. Human beings are embodied beings. The main point being argued is that the OP doesn't add any evidence that someplace along the way some purely immaterial, non-embodied being, designed life.hazel
May 28, 2019
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279 comments on an OP about an ID breakthrough that a couple people disagree with. I don’t have the time just now but I would like to compare a word count of those who disagree with KF against a KF word count. In the immortal words of someone... “ Me thinks thou dost protest too much”. Far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far too much.Brother Brian
May 28, 2019
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BB, Perhaps against better judgement that on track record you will simply ignore a point by point substantial reply and continue to double down, I again take up your argument in corrective steps of thought: BB: >>I am finding it really hard to follow your logic.>> a: Q: Have you shown that by responding point by point, substantially? A: No. >>On one hand you are saying that it is essentially impossible for the designer of life to be an embodied being,>> b: At least you now use embodied, but conflate that with, necessarily, entirely material with intelligence traceable to the wetware computational substrate known as the brain. c: As you patently have not clicked and looked elsewhere or pondered the verbal summary of the Smith Model, I have placed it in a PPPS to the OP, showing the two-tier controller. There is already a linked discussion. d: The two-tier controller allows in-the-loop I/O control action AND beyond the loop supervision. Thus, embodied does not require locking in the evolutionary materialist, self-contradictory narrative on intelligence, its seat and cause. e: Therefore, I may freely look at embodied designers as designers without committing myself to any ontology of intelligence and its seat. That means, I am not forced to infer onward that the only warranted types of designers are embodied. f: where, much has already been put on the table regarding the categorical difference between computational substrates and their characteristics on one hand, and free, responsible, rationally credible mind on the other. I again clip as an in a nutshell:
What we actually observe is: A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference] B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation] C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to: – components and their device physics, – organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc], – organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities, – input signals, – stored information, – processing/algorithm execution, – outputs
>> and on the other hand you are claiming that the paper describing the synthesis of a genome>> g: Intelligently designed, recoding based synthesis of a complete genome, published in Nature. >> by an embodied being>> h: As opposed to an inferred, wholly materialistic computational entity based on a computational substrate. >> is a breakthrough for ID.>> i: Yes, a concrete, published demonstration of the intelligent design of a whole genome. Duly published in Nature. j: Thus, demonstration that intelligent design of major components of cell based life is possible, without thereby committing myself to any specific ontology or identity of candidate designers. k: One establishes arson as responsible process before embarking on identifying suspects and building a case. (Something that now seems to be a big problem, there is far too much of tainting projection by ill founded accusation followed by scapegoating.) KFkairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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BB, you have yet again mischaracterised what I have said, not to mention the design inference and what design theory is about. I suggest you read my response to H just above and go on to read the UD weak argument correctives and take them to heart. Far too much of the institutionalised objections to ID turn on willful, correction-resisting mischaracterisation. Wiki being Exhibit A. I suggest, you mat find it useful to read the NWE presentation on ID by way of a third witness. KF PS: I add, the NWE intro-summ on ID:
Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" [1] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things. Greater clarity on the topic may be gained from a discussion of what ID is not considered to be by its leading theorists. Intelligent design generally is not defined the same as creationism, with proponents maintaining that ID relies on scientific evidence rather than on Scripture or religious doctrines. ID makes no claims about biblical chronology, and technically a person does not have to believe in God to infer intelligent design in nature. As a theory, ID also does not specify the identity or nature of the designer, so it is not the same as natural theology, which reasons from nature to the existence and attributes of God. ID does not claim that all species of living things were created in their present forms, and it does not claim to provide a complete account of the history of the universe or of living things. ID also is not considered by its theorists to be an "argument from ignorance"; that is, intelligent design is not to be inferred simply on the basis that the cause of something is unknown (any more than a person accused of willful intent can be convicted without evidence). According to various adherents, ID does not claim that design must be optimal; something may be intelligently designed even if it is flawed (as are many objects made by humans). Contents [hide] 1 History 2 Ideas of Some Leading ID Theorists 2.1 Michael J. Behe 2.2 William A. Dembski 2.3 Stephen C. Meyer 2.4 Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay W. Richards 3 Some Aspects of the Controversy 3.1 Philosophy 3.2 Science 3.3 Education 3.4 Theology 4 Notes and references 5 Selected Bibliography 5.1 Pro-ID Books 5.2 Anti-ID Books 6 External links 6.1 Pro-ID Internet Sites 6.2 Anti-ID Internet Sites 7 Credits ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent. It conflicts with views claiming that there is no real design in the cosmos (e.g., materialistic philosophy) or in living things (e.g., Darwinian evolution) or that design, though real, is undetectable (e.g., some forms of theistic evolution). Because of such conflicts, ID has generated considerable controversy.
kairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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H, Let's take up your remarks in steps of thought: >> the point of the OP (remember the OP?) was that human beings (material designers),>> a: See the ideologically loaded, question-begging inference that human beings are material as opposed to embodied entities? b: This already demonstrates why it is relevant to show that the presumed seat of material intelligence and thus of intelligently directed configuration (design) is the brain, a computational substrate, which is subject to the limitations of such substrates. c: Let me presume you can readily see Reppert's compressed summary and point to Haldane in a similar vein, he who was a co-founder of the neo-darwinist synthesis:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
c: The case is already made in a nutshell, but I will note: many observed designers are indeed embodied but we have no good warrant for inferring to embodiment and associated computational substrates are the warranted, credible seat and source of intelligence and rationality. >>working within a context of an existing genetic code, made changes that served as support for ID.>> d: Yes, the designers definitively showed and published in Nature, that a molecular nanotech lab can design and synthesise a whole genome, insert same in a cell body and get it to work. e: What this warrants is the recognition that intelligent design of cell based life using molecular nanotech techniques is possible, so intelligent design of life and of life forms is possible, as manifestly actual in our observation. f: Further to this, there is now no further defence of ideological lockouts of the possibility of such design in the remote past of origins, so ID cannot be properly locked out. g: This then immediately leads to the Brexit Party phenomenon. Once admitted, instantly the strong horse. Especially as there is no actually observed empirical warrant that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can and does create and organise similarly complex molecular nanotech. For details cf Tour's vid. h: However, this by no means establishes that the only possible or plausible seat of designing intelligence is embodiment with computational substrates as key locus. Instead, we see an identity-defining characteristics/properties categorical distinction, as:
What we actually observe is: A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference] B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation] C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to: – components and their device physics, – organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc], – organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities, – input signals, – stored information, – processing/algorithm execution, – outputs
>> How do religious experiences of God relate to this argument?>> i: Do you note your distancing and tainting labels? RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES? j: No, we have experiences and observations of a large number of people that lead them to the conclusion that there are intelligent agents which are not embodied (some of these being life-transforming and rooted in miracles beyond the ordinary course of the natural world). k: These are so pervasive and so abundant that to write them all off as suspect or delusional is not merely to be duly skeptical of the suspect other; it would bring into question the rational credibility of the human mind. As I clipped above:
e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And — as we saw above — would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent “delusion” is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it “must” — by the principles of evolution — somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [and following Dawkins in A Devil’s Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, “must” also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this “meme” in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence . . .
l: So, there is no non-question-begging warrant for the asserted claim, "all known designers are embodied beings." All else inferred from that collapses into the fallacy of question-begging. m: Further to this, as was already pointed out in this comment, on distinct identity, we are better advised to conceive of ourselves as embodied intelligences, rather than implicitly conceding the notion that our conscious, rational intelligence has been explained on an electrochemical, wetware computational substrate. n: Going yet further, for rationality to be credible it must be free, not mechanically and/or stochastically driven and controlled without residue. Instead, it is morally governed through known -- but evadable -- duties to truth, right reason, prudence, warrant, fairness, justice etc. o: Thus, it stands on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap, which can only be bridged at world-root level; pointing to a necessary (so, non-contingent, independent of external enabling causes and without beginning or end . . . aka eternal) being as world-source, where such a being is also inherently good. p: Further, the fine tuning of the observed cosmos points to an extra cosmic designer antecedent to atomic and related matter and energy. q: So, on many grounds, the imposition of embodiment is question-begging. >> This seems, dare I say, a big tangent and a significant distraction.>> r: I agree, that is why I find BB's raising the claim, use of imposed ideological question begging, evasiveness on substance and repeated resort to dismissive talking points are at best a distraction. s: But, that having been put on the table as an intended counter-argument, it has to be substantially addressed, never mind the rhetorical pretence that the context for the question begging claim is not what it manifestly is. t: Further, such being the sorts of objections being raised, there is an underlying warrant to hold that the OP is being distracted from because its point is inconveniently well warranted. KFkairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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KF, I am finding it really hard to follow your logic. On one hand you are saying that it is essentially impossible for the designer of life to be an embodied being, and on the other hand you are claiming that the paper describing the synthesis of a genome by an embodied being is a breakthrough for ID.Brother Brian
May 28, 2019
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F/N: I have added a PPPS to the OP which provides a context in brief, an audio clip on evolutionary materialist undermining of the credibility of the rationality of mind, a look at the Smith, two-tier controller bio-cybernetic model, and Reppert's telling summary in brief on why computational substrates fail to credibly account for rational inference, thus wider rational thought. KFkairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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BB, at this point, it is quite evident that you imagine that by pretending to have made a simple, non question begging, non ideologically loaded inference, you can dismiss or at least distract attention from what was definitively shown in the OP. I have taken time to show, step by step and by interaction and explanation why the claimed simple inductive inference, once it is seen in context of the state of thought on brains, minds and the like, fails. That you complain and suggest invidious associations with a longstanding smear against a man who won hundreds of open debates on the merits rather than answer on the merits in the end tells us that you do not have a cogent, substantial case but rely on the force of the dominance of evolutionary materialist indoctrination to project a sense of plausibility. Fail, in short. KFkairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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BB, your appeal above to the Gish-memory slander [he is not alive to point out that he won hundreds of public debates on the merits of the systematic gaps in the fossil record, the trade secret of paleontology] even while ducking answering the substantial reasons I have given why your claimed simple inference subverts the force of the OP only serve to show that a serious question on the table at this point is whether you are simply manifesting trollish willful obtuseness and a veritable zoo of other fallacies. If the response I have made to why attempts to bind intelligence to embodiment are so weak, then show that by cogent, substantial argument or stand exposed as using dismissive talking points to evade the force of a refutation and correction of a cluster of errors. KF PS: As this is a point by point response to your specific claims, I again lay out for record, noting that the following should be understood in context of the thread above:
[BB:]>>If I make an inference that all known designers are embodied beings>> a: Begs the question, billions for cause beg to differ. b: One cannot simply imply delusion on that scale, as it would undermine (self-referentially) the credibility of human rationality. c: In short, your first premise locks out any conclusion other than the one you wish and is dubious, highly debatable. d: Further to this, you have consistently failed to address the other design inference, fine tuning. This points to extra-cosmic designer. e: Yet further, the logic of being requires a finitely remote necessary being world root capable of causing a fine tuned C-Chem aqueous medium cell based life facilitating cosmos. Necessary beings cannot be composed of arranged, independently existing proper parts. That may be unfamiliar to you but is readily established as composite entities are inherently contingent. f: There is good reason to set aside your first premise and recognise instead that we observe designing intelligences so designing intelligence is possible. Without question-begging ontological commitments. >> therefore all designers are most likely embodied individuals,>> g: Reasoning on a begged question goes in pointless circles. h: Further, this side-steps the point I have elaborated above, on the known ideology at work across our civilisation, evolutionary materialistic scientism, i.e. you are setting up a strawman to knock over. i: On this ideology, intelligence is founded on sufficiently sophisticated computational substrates, but it is readily seen that these are blind, mechanically and/or stochastically governed glorified calculating engines, not responsibly and rationally free reasoning entities. Never mind pretentions of AI, they are inherently not freely thinking intelligences. j: Thus, it is an error to seek to bind intelligence to embodiment. Intelligences may indeed be embodied, but this points to an “amphibian” ontological character: mind over matter. k: I clip from above — which you ducked in order to revert to a compound fallacy now being answered point by point: What we actually observe is: A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference] B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation] C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to: – components and their device physics, – organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc], – organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities, – input signals, – stored information, – processing/algorithm execution, – outputs >> it is not valid because I haven’t taken God into account.>> l: Motive mongering, given widespread polarisation once “God” is mentioned. m: Above and previously, I have pointed out that billions will disagree, for cause, with the claim that ALL intelligences we have observed are embodied, i.e. I pointed to question-begging and further to the implications of implying such widespread delusion. Including, self-referential implications for you. n: Further, I have already taken much time and effort to mark the ontological differences between computational substrates and freely acting, insightful, morally governed intelligence. That counts and we scan above, in vain, for a cogent answer on your part. >> But ID can make a very similar inference>> o: You really need to read the UD weak argument correctives and take their points seriously, even if you disagree with our conclusions. p: The design inference is an inference on reliable signs, from observed functionally specific, sufficiently complex, configuration based organisation and associated information to a causal process . . . not agency . . . of intelligently directed configuration. It lets associated ontological and identity of design suspect chips lie where they fly. q: They are not material to the logic, apart from, we know designers are possible and that intelligence is a manifestation of rationality. r: Exploration of same, on other arguments and even disciplines, showing — whether or no you may like it — that we cannot bind intelligence to embodiment on computational substrates. s: In the case of the world of life, we see in the OP a demonstrated case of known intelligent design at genome scope, which is a breakthrough as — published in Nature — we have actual demonstration of intelligent design of a life form, so by Newton’s rules we have no good warrant to ideologically lock out the possibility of intelligently directed configuration of cell based life at origin or at origin of body plans. t: Where, repeat, there is no good reason to bind designing intelligence to embodiment on computational substrates, starting with sharply different characteristics, u: especially, that such substrates are inherently non-rational but rather are blindly mechanical and/or stochastic. >>and claim that it is independent of God.>> v: Yes, because it is an inductive inference on tested, reliable sign to credible causal PROCESS, not a speculative inference as to ontological character or identity of possible causal agents. w: That distinction must be preserved if there is to be a genuine understanding and responsible discussion. That too often, insistently (and in the face of cogent correction) such is not done, speaks volumes about the motivations of too many objectors to design. >> Do you have your cake and eat it much?>> x: This, instead only shows biased projections and a cluster of mutually reinforcing fallacies in action, as outlined.>>
kairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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KF
BB (& attn H), you full well know that a wetware, computational substrate, the brain, is held to be the seat of intelligence by the institutionally dominant (but self-refuting) evolutionary materialist school of thought.
How is that in any way relevant to the validity of my inference? ID has never excluded an embodied designer as being responsible for life on earth. My inference, following the same logic as the ID inference, just shows that an embodied designer is the best explanation for life.Brother Brian
May 28, 2019
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F/N: I think it is relevant to expand, by excerpting the current form of my longstanding discussion of the minds are evolved brains in a materialistic world thesis, and why it is self-referential, incoherent and necessarily false. Never mind the lab coat it may wear, or its claim to be a simple inductive inference from what we readily see:
First, some materialists actually suggest that mind is more or less a delusion, which is instantly self-referentially absurd. For instance, Sir Francis Crick is on record, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [Reason in the Balance, 1995.] In short, it is at least arguable that self-referential absurdity is the dagger pointing to the heart of evolutionary materialistic models of mind and its origin. For, there is a very good reason we are cautioned about how easily self-referential statements can become self-refuting, like a snake attacking and swallowing itself tail-first. Any human scheme of thought that undermines responsible [thus, morally governed] rational freedom undermines itself fatally. We thus see inadvertent, inherent self-falsification of evolutionary materialism. But, “inadvertent” counts: it can be hard to recognise and acknowledge the logically fatal nature of the result. Of course, that subjective challenge does not change the objective result: self-referential incoherence and irretrievable self-falsification. (An audio clip, here, by William Lane Craig that summarises Plantinga's argument on this in a nutshell, is useful as a quick reference.) This issue can be discussed at a much higher level, but it can also be drawn out a bit in a fairly simple way for blog level discussion:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances.
(This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] )
c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride.
(Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.])
e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
i: The famous geneticist and evolutionary biologist (as well as Socialist) J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity.
(NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.)
k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, "Billions and billions of demons," it is now notorious that:
. . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words justify the above, kindly cf. the more complete clip and notes here.]
n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind and of concepts and reasoned out conclusions relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)
KF
kairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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BB (& attn H), you full well know that a wetware, computational substrate, the brain, is held to be the seat of intelligence by the institutionally dominant (but self-refuting) evolutionary materialist school of thought. Only, it is easy to show that such a substrate is inherently non-rational, so this fails. Similarly, the strong AI dream hopes that a combination of software, orgamisation and an underlying substrate will adequately show itself intelligent -- only to repeatedly fail. Likewise, the so-called hard problem of consciousness is held to be about how consciousness and its key characteristics somehow emerge from brain structures and activity, which again faces the problem that even refined and highly organised rock forming wetware inherently is a computational substrate with all the limitations of such. So, attempts to bind intelligence to embodiment are implicitly about this failed materialistic dream. The rhetorical pretence that it is irrelevant to point out the inherent non-rationality of computational substrates, fails. There is simply no "simple", non- question begging, non ideologically loaded inference from the fact that some people point to embodied intelligent creatures, dismiss the experiences and views of a very large fraction of humanity that they have experience also of non-embodied intelligence, refuse to attend to evidence of the categorical difference between computation and rational inference (which raises the "mind over matter" question that we could instead be exploring via the Smith Model, etc), and the claimed conclusion that it is likely or definitive that all relevant intelligences are similarly embodied. KF PS: Again, Reppert:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
kairosfocus
May 28, 2019
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Hazel
This seems, dare I say, a big tangent and a significant distraction.
To say the least. Where’s my use of the inference was right on topic.Brother Brian
May 27, 2019
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kf, the point of the OP (remember the OP?) was that human beings (material designers), working within a context of an existing genetic code, made changes that served as support for ID. How do religious experiences of God relate to this argument? This seems, dare I say, a big tangent and a significant distraction.hazel
May 27, 2019
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KF@266, what does computational substrates have to do with anything? It is completely irrelevant to whether or not my inference is less absurd that the ID inference. My inference accepts the possibility of life being designed, but infers, on cause, that the designer is most likely embodied. And fine tuning is a farce. To make the argument that what you are calling fine tuning was the result of an extra cosmic intelligence, you first have to demonstrate that other physical constants are possible. Just because something is impossible doesn’t mean that it is designed. A rock will always sink in a lake at room temperature. That doesn’t mean the rock is designed. The alphabet soup of “arguments” you keep posting do nothing to change any of this.Brother Brian
May 27, 2019
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BB, your prejudices, impositions and question beggings are showing. On the specifically scientific, I have pointed to something I intimately know: the characteristics of computational substrates vs attributes required for intelligence, leading to distinct identity that breaks attempts to bind the latter to the former, undermining your attempted induction as a post hoc fallacy. Going beyond, I have also pointed to fine tuning as a domain pointing to a cosmological act of design, directly implying designer antecedent to a world of atomic or similar matter and thus also extracosmic. I note also your continued resort to loaded talking points while failing to address the substantial matter cogently. KFkairosfocus
May 27, 2019
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H, you have at least begun to respond. I suggest there are life transforming encounters with God that are the experience and understanding of many millions. This includes miracles of several sorts. For me, it specifically includes why I am not 50 years since, dead. There are many more, and experience of God or the good is not the only category of cases. My point is, that there is far more to the world of credible experience and observation than BB would allow, and that if all of this is swept away, it raises the spectre of grand delusion, thus self referential undermining of rationality. KFkairosfocus
May 27, 2019
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Hazel
Are we still talking science here?
Of course not. We are talking ID. :)Brother Brian
May 27, 2019
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Let's just take one point: BB says, "If I make an inference that all known designers are embodied beings,", you replied, above, "Millions of people personally know God in positively life-transforming ways, for example." It is hard for me to take people's religious experiences of God as empirically similar in any way to the fact that we can watch people design and build things. It's hard to dig in "cogently" to all your other points if that's where you start. Are we still talking science here?hazel
May 27, 2019
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For the record, kf, you have now posted the same thing three times in a row, for the record. That's seems like a redundant record to me.hazel
May 27, 2019
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BB, wrong again, and insubstantial. If I interact with you and respond, you object insubstantially. If I take you up point bu point the same, it is obvious you have no intent to address the substantial matters. That leaves the balance on merits clear, and not in your favour. KF PS: For record, I again show what you need to answer cogently and this is not a mere flood of empty words, it is speaking to substance: >>>>>>>>>> I hereby attach the above point by point corrective to show the current balance on merits: >>Let me address your latest claim in steps of thought: >>If I make an inference that all known designers are embodied beings>> a: Begs the question, billions for cause beg to differ. b: One cannot simply imply delusion on that scale, as it would undermine (self-referentially) the credibility of human rationality. c: In short, your first premise locks out any conclusion other than the one you wish and is dubious, highly debatable. d: Further to this, you have consistently failed to address the other design inference, fine tuning. This points to extra-cosmic designer. e: Yet further, the logic of being requires a finitely remote necessary being world root capable of causing a fine tuned C-Chem aqueous medium cell based life facilitating cosmos. Necessary beings cannot be composed of arranged, independently existing proper parts. That may be unfamiliar to you but is readily established as composite entities are inherently contingent. f: There is good reason to set aside your first premise and recognise instead that we observe designing intelligences so designing intelligence is possible. Without question-begging ontological commitments. >> therefore all designers are most likely embodied individuals,>> g: Reasoning on a begged question goes in pointless circles. h: Further, this side-steps the point I have elaborated above, on the known ideology at work across our civilisation, evolutionary materialistic scientism, i.e. you are setting up a strawman to knock over. i: On this ideology, intelligence is founded on sufficiently sophisticated computational substrates, but it is readily seen that these are blind, mechanically and/or stochastically governed glorified calculating engines, not responsibly and rationally free reasoning entities. Never mind pretentions of AI, they are inherently not freely thinking intelligences. j: Thus, it is an error to seek to bind intelligence to embodiment. Intelligences may indeed be embodied, but this points to an “amphibian” ontological character: mind over matter. k: I clip from above — which you ducked in order to revert to a compound fallacy now being answered point by point: What we actually observe is: A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference] B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation] C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to: – components and their device physics, – organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc], – organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities, – input signals, – stored information, – processing/algorithm execution, – outputs >> it is not valid because I haven’t taken God into account.>> l: Motive mongering, given widespread polarisation once “God” is mentioned. m: Above and previously, I have pointed out that billions will disagree, for cause, with the claim that ALL intelligences we have observed are embodied, i.e. I pointed to question-begging and further to the implications of implying such widespread delusion. Including, self-referential implications for you. n: Further, I have already taken much time and effort to mark the ontological differences between computational substrates and freely acting, insightful, morally governed intelligence. That counts and we scan above, in vain, for a cogent answer on your part. >> But ID can make a very similar inference>> o: You really need to read the UD weak argument correctives and take their points seriously, even if you disagree with our conclusions. p: The design inference is an inference on reliable signs, from observed functionally specific, sufficiently complex, configuration based organisation and associated information to a causal process . . . not agency . . . of intelligently directed configuration. It lets associated ontological and identity of design suspect chips lie where they fly. q: They are not material to the logic, apart from, we know designers are possible and that intelligence is a manifestation of rationality. r: Exploration of same, on other arguments and even disciplines, showing — whether or no you may like it — that we cannot bind intelligence to embodiment on computational substrates. s: In the case of the world of life, we see in the OP a demonstrated case of known intelligent design at genome scope, which is a breakthrough as — published in Nature — we have actual demonstration of intelligent design of a life form, so by Newton’s rules we have no good warrant to ideologically lock out the possibility of intelligently directed configuration of cell based life at origin or at origin of body plans. t: Where, repeat, there is no good reason to bind designing intelligence to embodiment on computational substrates, starting with sharply different characteristics, u: especially, that such substrates are inherently non-rational but rather are blindly mechanical and/or stochastic. >>and claim that it is independent of God.>> v: Yes, because it is an inductive inference on tested, reliable sign to credible causal PROCESS, not a speculative inference as to ontological character or identity of possible causal agents. w: That distinction must be preserved if there is to be a genuine understanding and responsible discussion. That too often, insistently (and in the face of cogent correction) such is not done, speaks volumes about the motivations of too many objectors to design. >> Do you have your cake and eat it much?>> x: This, instead only shows biased projections and a cluster of mutually reinforcing fallacies in action, as outlined. >> That is what needs to be answered, cogently.kairosfocus
May 27, 2019
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Piling on: Yes to 258 and 259.hazel
May 27, 2019
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KF,
... speaks volumes about the motivations of too many objectors to design.
In the same post where you complain about motive mongering on the part of your interlocutors. Let's be honest---you are responsible for more red herrings, strawmen, and motive mongering than all of us combined.daveS
May 27, 2019
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I seem to remember a debating strategy that involves focusing on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments. I can’t remember what it is called. But I think we are seeing a prime example of this. Although, I am surprised that KF didn’t have points for the last two letters of the alphabet.Brother Brian
May 27, 2019
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H, piling on occurs when we see not cogent response but mere voting in support without addressing serious corrections to errors, especially when introduced by concern troll tactics. BB, There is a point by point corrective on the table, provide a cogent reply or it is clear that you do not have an answer, only a position. EG, You set off from the classic introduction of the concern troll, to pile on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of the above is substantial, I hereby attach the above point by point corrective to show the current balance on merits: >>Let me address your latest claim in steps of thought: >>If I make an inference that all known designers are embodied beings>> a: Begs the question, billions for cause beg to differ. b: One cannot simply imply delusion on that scale, as it would undermine (self-referentially) the credibility of human rationality. c: In short, your first premise locks out any conclusion other than the one you wish and is dubious, highly debatable. d: Further to this, you have consistently failed to address the other design inference, fine tuning. This points to extra-cosmic designer. e: Yet further, the logic of being requires a finitely remote necessary being world root capable of causing a fine tuned C-Chem aqueous medium cell based life facilitating cosmos. Necessary beings cannot be composed of arranged, independently existing proper parts. That may be unfamiliar to you but is readily established as composite entities are inherently contingent. f: There is good reason to set aside your first premise and recognise instead that we observe designing intelligences so designing intelligence is possible. Without question-begging ontological commitments. >> therefore all designers are most likely embodied individuals,>> g: Reasoning on a begged question goes in pointless circles. h: Further, this side-steps the point I have elaborated above, on the known ideology at work across our civilisation, evolutionary materialistic scientism, i.e. you are setting up a strawman to knock over. i: On this ideology, intelligence is founded on sufficiently sophisticated computational substrates, but it is readily seen that these are blind, mechanically and/or stochastically governed glorified calculating engines, not responsibly and rationally free reasoning entities. Never mind pretentions of AI, they are inherently not freely thinking intelligences. j: Thus, it is an error to seek to bind intelligence to embodiment. Intelligences may indeed be embodied, but this points to an “amphibian” ontological character: mind over matter. k: I clip from above — which you ducked in order to revert to a compound fallacy now being answered point by point: What we actually observe is: A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference] B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation] C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference] The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to: – components and their device physics, – organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc], – organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities, – input signals, – stored information, – processing/algorithm execution, – outputs >> it is not valid because I haven’t taken God into account.>> l: Motive mongering, given widespread polarisation once “God” is mentioned. m: Above and previously, I have pointed out that billions will disagree, for cause, with the claim that ALL intelligences we have observed are embodied, i.e. I pointed to question-begging and further to the implications of implying such widespread delusion. Including, self-referential implications for you. n: Further, I have already taken much time and effort to mark the ontological differences between computational substrates and freely acting, insightful, morally governed intelligence. That counts and we scan above, in vain, for a cogent answer on your part. >> But ID can make a very similar inference>> o: You really need to read the UD weak argument correctives and take their points seriously, even if you disagree with our conclusions. p: The design inference is an inference on reliable signs, from observed functionally specific, sufficiently complex, configuration based organisation and associated information to a causal process . . . not agency . . . of intelligently directed configuration. It lets associated ontological and identity of design suspect chips lie where they fly. q: They are not material to the logic, apart from, we know designers are possible and that intelligence is a manifestation of rationality. r: Exploration of same, on other arguments and even disciplines, showing — whether or no you may like it — that we cannot bind intelligence to embodiment on computational substrates. s: In the case of the world of life, we see in the OP a demonstrated case of known intelligent design at genome scope, which is a breakthrough as — published in Nature — we have actual demonstration of intelligent design of a life form, so by Newton’s rules we have no good warrant to ideologically lock out the possibility of intelligently directed configuration of cell based life at origin or at origin of body plans. t: Where, repeat, there is no good reason to bind designing intelligence to embodiment on computational substrates, starting with sharply different characteristics, u: especially, that such substrates are inherently non-rational but rather are blindly mechanical and/or stochastic. >>and claim that it is independent of God.>> v: Yes, because it is an inductive inference on tested, reliable sign to credible causal PROCESS, not a speculative inference as to ontological character or identity of possible causal agents. w: That distinction must be preserved if there is to be a genuine understanding and responsible discussion. That too often, insistently (and in the face of cogent correction) such is not done, speaks volumes about the motivations of too many objectors to design. >> Do you have your cake and eat it much?>> x: This, instead only shows biased projections and a cluster of mutually reinforcing fallacies in action, as outlined. >> That is what needs to be answered, cogently. KF KFkairosfocus
May 27, 2019
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Hazel@254, I thought the response to a simple statement was a little over the top. But we all have bad days. And it appears that BB is giving KF one. :)Ed George
May 27, 2019
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KF@253, you sound like a man trying to convince himself of something. I admit that my inference is absurd. I juxtaposed it against the ID inference to demonstrated that it is even more absurd. The fact that you have gone to such lengths to try to deride my inference suggests that I have hit close to home.Brother Brian
May 27, 2019
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