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ID Foundations, 11: Borel’s Infinite Monkeys analysis and the significance of the log reduced Chi metric, Chi_500 = I*S – 500

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 (Series)

Emile Borel, 1932

Emile Borel (1871 – 1956) was a distinguished French Mathematician who — a son of a Minister — came from France’s Protestant minority, and he was a founder of measure theory in mathematics. He was also a significant contributor to modern probability theory,  and so Knobloch observed of his approach, that:

>>Borel published more than fifty papers between 1905 and 1950 on the calculus of probability. They were mainly motivated or influenced by Poincaré, Bertrand, Reichenbach, and Keynes. However, he took for the most part an opposed view because of his realistic attitude toward mathematics. He stressed the important and practical value of probability theory. He emphasized the applications to the different sociological, biological, physical, and mathematical sciences. He preferred to elucidate these applications instead of looking for an axiomatization of probability theory. Its essential peculiarities were for him unpredictability, indeterminism, and discontinuity. Nevertheless, he was interested in a clarification of the probability concept. [Emile Borel as a probabilist, in The probabilist revolution Vol 1 (Cambridge Mass., 1987), 215-233. Cited, Mac Tutor History of Mathematics Archive, Borel Biography.]>>

Among other things, he is credited as the worker who introduced a serious mathematical analysis of the so-called Infinite Monkeys theorem (just a moment).

So, it is unsurprising that Abel, in his recent universal plausibility metric paper, observed  that:

Emile Borel’s limit of cosmic probabilistic resources [c. 1913?] was only 1050 [[23] (pg. 28-30)]. Borel based this probability bound in part on the product of the number of observable stars (109) times the number of possible human observations that could be made on those stars (1020).

This of course, is now a bit expanded, since the breakthroughs in astronomy occasioned by the Mt Wilson 100-inch telescope under Hubble in the 1920’s. However,  it does underscore how centrally important the issue of available resources is, to render a given — logically and physically strictly possible but utterly improbable — potential chance- based event reasonably observable.

We may therefore now introduce Wikipedia as a hostile witness, testifying against known ideological interest, in its article on the Infinite Monkeys theorem:

In one of the forms in which probabilists now know this theorem, with its “dactylographic” [i.e., typewriting] monkeys (French: singes dactylographes; the French word singe covers both the monkeys and the apes), appeared in Émile Borel‘s 1913 article “Mécanique Statistique et Irréversibilité” (Statistical mechanics and irreversibility),[3] and in his book “Le Hasard” in 1914. His “monkeys” are not actual monkeys; rather, they are a metaphor for an imaginary way to produce a large, random sequence of letters. Borel said that if a million monkeys typed ten hours a day, it was extremely unlikely that their output would exactly equal all the books of the richest libraries of the world; and yet, in comparison, it was even more unlikely that the laws of statistical mechanics would ever be violated, even briefly.

The physicist Arthur Eddington drew on Borel’s image further in The Nature of the Physical World (1928), writing:

If I let my fingers wander idly over the keys of a typewriter it might happen that my screed made an intelligible sentence. If an army of monkeys were strumming on typewriters they might write all the books in the British Museum. The chance of their doing so is decidedly more favourable than the chance of the molecules returning to one half of the vessel.[4]

These images invite the reader to consider the incredible improbability of a large but finite number of monkeys working for a large but finite amount of time producing a significant work, and compare this with the even greater improbability of certain physical events. Any physical process that is even less likely than such monkeys’ success is effectively impossible, and it may safely be said that such a process will never happen.

Let us emphasise that last part, as it is so easy to overlook in the heat of the ongoing debates over origins and the significance of the idea that we can infer to design on noticing certain empirical signs:

These images invite the reader to consider the incredible improbability of a large but finite number of monkeys working for a large but finite amount of time producing a significant work, and compare this with the even greater improbability of certain physical events. Any physical process that is even less likely than such monkeys’ success is effectively impossible, and it may safely be said that such a process will never happen.

Why is that?

Because of the nature of sampling from a large space of possible configurations. That is, we face a needle-in-the-haystack challenge.

For, there are only so many resources available in a realistic situation, and only so many observations can therefore be actualised in the time available. As a result, if one is confined to a blind probabilistic, random search process, s/he will soon enough run into the issue that:

a: IF a narrow and atypical set of possible outcomes T, that

b: may be described by some definite specification Z (that does not boil down to listing the set T or the like), and

c: which comprise a set of possibilities E1, E2, . . . En, from

d: a much larger set of possible outcomes, W, THEN:

e: IF, further, we do see some Ei from T, THEN also

f: Ei is not plausibly a chance occurrence.

The reason for this is not hard to spot: when a sufficiently small, chance based, blind sample is taken from a set of possibilities, W — a configuration space,  the likeliest outcome is that what is typical of the bulk of the possibilities will be chosen, not what is atypical.  And, this is the foundation-stone of the statistical form of the second law of thermodynamics.

Hence, Borel’s remark as summarised by Wikipedia:

Borel said that if a million monkeys typed ten hours a day, it was extremely unlikely that their output would exactly equal all the books of the richest libraries of the world; and yet, in comparison, it was even more unlikely that the laws of statistical mechanics would ever be violated, even briefly.

In recent months, here at UD, we have described this in terms of searching for a needle in a vast haystack [corrective u/d follows]:

let us work back from how it takes ~ 10^30 Planck time states for the fastest chemical reactions, and use this as a yardstick, i.e. in 10^17 s, our solar system’s 10^57 atoms would undergo ~ 10^87 “chemical time” states, about as fast as anything involving atoms could happen. That is 1 in 10^63 of 10^150. So, let’s do an illustrative haystack calculation:

 Let us take a straw as weighing about a gram and having comparable density to water, so that a haystack weighing 10^63 g [= 10^57 tonnes] would take up as many cubic metres. The stack, assuming a cubical shape, would be 10^19 m across. Now, 1 light year = 9.46 * 10^15 m, or about 1/1,000 of that distance across. If we were to superpose such a notional 1,000 light years on the side haystack on the zone of space centred on the sun, and leave in all stars, planets, comets, rocks, etc, and take a random sample equal in size to one straw, by absolutely overwhelming odds, we would get straw, not star or planet etc. That is, such a sample would be overwhelmingly likely to reflect the bulk of the distribution, not special, isolated zones in it.

With this in mind, we may now look at the Dembski Chi metric, and reduce it to a simpler, more practically applicable form:

m: In 2005, Dembski provided a fairly complex formula, that we can quote and simplify:

χ = – log2[10^120 ·ϕS(T)·P(T|H)]. χ is “chi” and ϕ is “phi”

n:  To simplify and build a more “practical” mathematical model, we note that information theory researchers Shannon and Hartley showed us how to measure information by changing probability into a log measure that allows pieces of information to add up naturally: Ip = – log p, in bits if the base is 2. (That is where the now familiar unit, the bit, comes from.)

o: So, since 10^120 ~ 2^398, we may do some algebra as log(p*q*r) = log(p) + log(q ) + log(r) and log(1/p) = – log (p):

Chi = – log2(2^398 * D2 * p), in bits

Chi = Ip – (398 + K2), where log2 (D2 ) = K2

p: But since 398 + K2 tends to at most 500 bits on the gamut of our solar system [our practical universe, for chemical interactions! (if you want , 1,000 bits would be a limit for the observable cosmos)] and

q: as we can define a dummy variable for specificity, S, where S = 1 or 0 according as the observed configuration, E, is on objective analysis specific to a narrow and independently describable zone of interest, T:

Chi_500 =  Ip*S – 500, in bits beyond a “complex enough” threshold

(If S = 0, Chi = – 500, and, if Ip is less than 500 bits, Chi will be negative even if S is positive. E.g.: A string of 501 coins tossed at random will have S = 0, but if the coins are arranged to spell out a message in English using the ASCII code [[notice independent specification of a narrow zone of possible configurations, T], Chi will — unsurprisingly — be positive.)

r: So, we have some reason to suggest that if something, E, is based on specific information describable in a way that does not just quote E and requires at least 500 specific bits to store the specific information, then the most reasonable explanation for the cause of E is that it was intelligently designed. (For instance, no-one would dream of asserting seriously that the English text of this post is a matter of chance occurrence giving rise to a lucky configuration, a point that was well-understood by that Bible-thumping redneck fundy — NOT! — Cicero in 50 BC.)

s: The metric may be directly applied to biological cases:

t: Using Durston’s Fits values — functionally specific bits — from his Table 1, to quantify I, so also  accepting functionality on specific sequences as showing specificity giving S = 1, we may apply the simplified Chi_500 metric of bits beyond the threshold:

RecA: 242 AA, 832 fits, Chi: 332 bits beyond

SecY: 342 AA, 688 fits, Chi: 188 bits beyond

Corona S2: 445 AA, 1285 fits, Chi: 785 bits beyond

u: And, this raises the controversial question that biological examples such as DNA — which in a living cell is much more complex than 500 bits — may be designed to carry out particular functions in the cell and the wider organism.

v: Therefore, we have at least one possible general empirical sign of intelligent design, namely: functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information [[FSCO/I] .

But, but, but . . . isn’t “natural selection” precisely NOT a chance based process, so doesn’t the ability to reproduce in environments and adapt to new niches then dominate the population make nonsense of such a calculation?

NO.

Why is that?

Because of the actual claimed source of variation (which is often masked by the emphasis on “selection”) and the scope of innovations required to originate functionally effective body plans, as opposed to varying same — starting with the very first one, i.e. Origin of Life, OOL.

But that’s Hoyle’s fallacy!

Advice: when you go up against a Nobel-equivalent prize-holder, whose field requires expertise in mathematics and thermodynamics, one would be well advised to examine carefully the underpinnings of what is being said, not just the rhetorical flourish about tornadoes in junkyards in Seattle assembling 747 Jumbo Jets.

More specifically, the key concept of Darwinian evolution [we need not detain ourselves too much on debates over mutations as the way variations manifest themselves], is that:

CHANCE VARIATION (CV) + NATURAL “SELECTION” (NS) –> DESCENT WITH (UNLIMITED) MODIFICATION (DWM), i.e. “EVOLUTION.”

CV + NS –> DWM, aka Evolution

If we look at NS, this boils down to differential reproductive success in environments leading to elimination of the relatively unfit.

That is, NS is a culling-out process, a subtract-er of information, not the claimed source of information.

That leaves only CV, i.e. blind chance, manifested in various ways. (And of course, in anticipation of some of the usual side-tracks, we must note that the Darwinian view, as modified though the genetic mutations concept and population genetics to describe how population fractions shift, is the dominant view in the field.)

There are of course some empirical cases in point, but in all these cases, what is observed is fairly minor variations within a given body plan, not the relevant issue: the spontaneous emergence of such a complex, functionally specific and tightly integrated body plan, which must be viable from the zygote on up.

To cover that gap, we have a well-known metaphorical image — an analogy, the Darwinian Tree of Life. This boils down to implying that there is a vast contiguous continent of functionally possible variations of life forms, so that we may see a smooth incremental development across that vast fitness landscape, once we had an original life form capable of self-replication.

What is the evidence for that?

Actually, nil.

The fossil record, the only direct empirical evidence of the remote past, is notoriously that of sudden appearances of novel forms, stasis (with some variability within the form obviously), and disappearance and/or continuation into the modern world.

If by contrast the tree of life framework were the observed reality, we would see a fossil record DOMINATED by transitional forms, not the few strained examples that are so often triumphalistically presented in textbooks and museums.

Similarly, it is notorious that fairly minor variations in the embryological development process are easily fatal. No surprise, if we have a highly complex, deeply interwoven interactive system, chance disturbances are overwhelmingly going to be disruptive.

Likewise, complex, functionally specific hardware is not designed and developed by small, chance based functional increments to an existing simple form.

Hoyle’s challenge of overwhelming improbability does not begin with the assembly of a Jumbo jet by chance, it begins with the assembly of say an indicating instrument on its cockpit instrument panel.

The D’Arsonval galvanometer movement commonly used in indicating instruments; an adaptation of a motor, that runs against a spiral spring (to give proportionality of deflection to input current across the magnetic field) which has an attached needle moving across a scale. Such an instrument, historically, was often adapted for measuring all sorts of quantities on a panel.

(Indeed, it would be utterly unlikely for a large box of mixed nuts and bolts, to by chance shaking, bring together matching nut and bolt and screw them together tightly; the first step to assembling the instrument by chance.)

Further to this, It would be bad enough to try to get together the text strings for a Hello World program (let’s leave off the implementing machinery and software that make it work) by chance. To then incrementally create an operating system from it, each small step along the way being functional, would be a bizarrely operationally impossible super-task.

So, the real challenge is that those who have put forth the tree of life, continent of function type approach, have got to show, empirically that their step by step path up the slopes of Mt Improbable, are empirically observable, at least in reasonable model cases. And, they need to show that in effect chance variations on a Hello World will lead, within reasonable plausibility, to such a stepwise development that transforms the Hello World into something fundamentally different.

In short, we have excellent reason to infer that — absent empirical demonstration otherwise — complex specifically functional integrated complex organisation arises in clusters that are atypical of the general run of the vastly larger set of physically possible configurations of components. And, the strongest pointer that this is plainly  so for life forms as well, is the detailed, complex, step by step information controlled nature of the processes in the cell that use information stored in DNA to make proteins.  Let’s call Wiki as a hostile witness again, courtesy two key diagrams:

I: Overview:

The step-by-step process of protein synthesis, controlled by the digital (= discrete state) information stored in DNA

II: Focusing on the Ribosome in action for protein synthesis:

The Ribosome, assembling a protein step by step based on the instructions in the mRNA “control tape” (the AA chain is then folded and put to work)

Clay animation video [added Dec 4]:

[youtube OEJ0GWAoSYY]

More detailed animation [added Dec 4]:

[vimeo 31830891]

This sort of elaborate, tightly controlled, instruction based step by step process is itself a strong sign that this sort of outcome is unlikely by chance variations.

(And, attempts to deny the obvious, that we are looking at digital information at work in algorithmic, step by step processes, is itself a sign that there is a controlling a priori at work that must lock out the very evidence before our eyes to succeed. The above is not intended to persuade such, they are plainly not open to evidence, so we can only note how their position reduces to patent absurdity in the face of evidence and move on.)

But, isn’t the insertion of a dummy variable S into the Chi_500 metric little more than question-begging?

Again, NO.

Let us consider a simple form of the per-aspect explanatory filter approach:

The per aspect design inference explanatory filter

 

You will observe two key decision nodes,  where the first default is that the aspect of the object, phenomenon or process being studied, is rooted in a natural, lawlike regularity that under similar conditions will produce similar outcomes, i.e there is a reliable law of nature at work, leading to low contingency of outcomes.  A dropped, heavy object near earth’s surface will reliably fall at g initial acceleration, 9.8 m/s2.  That lawlike behaviour with low contingency can be empirically investigated and would eliminate design as a reasonable explanation.

Second, we see some situations where there is a high degree of contingency of possible outcomes under initial circumstances.  This is the more interesting case, and in our experience has two candidate mechanisms: chance, or choice. The default for S under these circumstances, is 0. That is, the presumption is that chance is an adequate explanation, unless there is a good — empirical and/or analytical — reason to think otherwise.  In short, on investigation of the dynamics of volcanoes and our experience with them, rooted in direct observations, the complexity of a Mt Pinatubo is explained partly on natural laws and chance variations, there is no need to infer to choice to explain its structure.

But, if the observed configurations of highly contingent elements were from a narrow and atypical zone T not credibly reachable based on the search resources available, then we would be objectively warranted to infer to choice. For instance, a chance based text string of length equal to this post, would  overwhelmingly be gibberish, so we are entitled to note the functional specificity at work in the post, and assign S = 1 here.

So, the dummy variable S is not a matter of question-begging, never mind the usual dismissive talking points.

I is of course an information measure based on standard approaches, through the sort of probabilistic calculations Hartley and Shannon used, or by a direct observation of the state-structure of a system [e.g. on/off switches naturally encode one bit each].

And, where an entity is not a direct information storing object, we may reduce it to a mesh of nodes and arcs, then investigate how much variation can be allowed and still retain adequate function, i.e. a key and lock can be reduced to a bit measure of implied information, and a sculpture like at Mt Rushmore can similarly be analysed, given the specificity of portraiture.

The 500 is a threshold, related to the limits of the search resources of our solar system, and if we want more, we can easily move up to the 1,000 bit threshold for our observed cosmos.

On needle in a haystack grounds, or monkeys strumming at the keyboards grounds, if we are dealing with functionally specific, complex information beyond these thresholds, the best explanation for seeing such is design.

And, that is abundantly verified by the contents of say the Library of Congress (26 million works) or the Internet, or the product across time of the Computer programming industry.

But, what about Genetic Algorithms etc, don’t they prove that such FSCI can come about by cumulative progress based on trial and error rewarded by success?

Not really.

As a rule, such are about generalised hill-climbing within islands of function characterised by intelligently designed fitness functions with well-behaved trends and controlled variation within equally intelligently designed search algorithms. They start within a target Zone T, by design, and proceed to adapt incrementally based on built in designed algorithms.

If such a GA were to emerge from a Hello World by incremental chance variations that worked as programs in their own right every step of the way, that would be a different story, but for excellent reason we can safely include GAs in the set of cases where FSCI comes about by choice, not chance.

So, we can see what the Chi_500 expression means, and how it is a reasonable and empirically supported tool for measuring complex specified information, especially where the specification is functionally based.

And, we can see the basis for what it is doing, and why one is justified to use it, despite many commonly encountered objections. END

________

F/N, Jan 22: In response to a renewed controversy tangential to another blog thread, I have redirected discussion here. As a point of reference for background information, I append a clip from the thread:

. . . [If you wish to find] basic background on info theory and similar background from serious sources, then go to the linked thread . . . And BTW, Shannon’s original 1948 paper is still a good early stop-off on this. I just did a web search and see it is surprisingly hard to get a good simple free online 101 on info theory for the non mathematically sophisticated; to my astonishment the section A of my always linked note clipped from above is by comparison a fairly useful first intro. I like this intro at the next level here, this is similar, this is nice and short while introducing notation, this is a short book in effect, this is a longer one, and I suggest the Marks lecture on evo informatics here as a useful contextualisation. Qualitative outline here. I note as well Perry Marshall’s related exchange here, to save going over long since adequately answered talking points, such as asserting that DNA in the context of genes is not coded information expressed in a string of 4-state per position G/C/A/T monomers. The one good thing is, I found the Jaynes 1957 paper online, now added to my vault, no cloud without a silver lining.

If you are genuinely puzzled on practical heuristics, I suggest a look at the geoglyphs example already linked. This genetic discussion may help on the basic ideas, but of course the issues Durston et al raised in 2007 are not delved on.

(I must note that an industry-full of complex praxis is going to be hard to reduce to an in a nutshell. However, we are quite familiar with information at work, and how we routinely measure it as in say the familiar: “this Word file is 235 k bytes.” That such a file is exceedingly functionally specific can be seen by the experiment of opening one up in an inspection package that will access raw text symbols for the file. A lot of it will look like repetitive nonsense, but if you clip off such, sometimes just one header character, the file will be corrupted and will not open as a Word file. When we have a great many parts that must be right and in the right pattern for something to work in a given context like this, we are dealing with functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I for short.

The point of the main post above is that once we have this, and are past 500 bits or 1000 bits, it is not credible that such can arise by blind chance and mechanical necessity. But of course, intelligence routinely produces such, like comments in this thread. Objectors can answer all of this quite simply, by producing a case where such chance and necessity — without intelligent action by the back door — produces such FSCO/I. If they could do this, the heart would be cut out of design theory. But, year after year, thread after thread, here and elsewhere, this simple challenge is not being met. Borel, as discussed above, points out the basic reason why.

Comments
In that case, I will attempt to limit my appearances here to those threads not hosted by you; asking only that you read the paper I commended to your attention - and one of Axe's, to wit Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1996 May 28; 93(11): 5590–5594. Active barnase variants with completely random hydrophobic cores. I should be interested in your comments on both.Bydand
January 29, 2012
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But your own repeated question – how do we know that the spaces aren’t connected – indicates that you don’t know that they are. That’s the whole question.
Most of evolutionary biology is directly or indirectly concerned with this question. It's only been in the last ten years that we have the technology to address it directly and experimentally. I suspect we will see more experiments like Thornton's that will directly probe the connectability of cousin sequences.Petrushka
January 29, 2012
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@Eugene S#41.1.2.1.5,
Excellent. Only one more step to take. What you now have to show is nature using rules not laws in anything other than life, which is the case in point in this discussion. Rules are arbitrary and are independent of physical reality.
They are? That's quite a curious distinction. See, for example, this about.com entry on the laws of physics: http://physics.about.com/od/physics101thebasics/p/PhysicsLaws.htm
ir Isaac Newton developed the Three Laws of Motion, which describe basic rules about how the motion of physical objects change. Newton was able to define the fundamental relationship between the acceleration of an object and the total forces acting upon it.
(my emphasis) Do you suppose those "rules of motion" are "arbitrary and are independent of physical reality"? No matter, in any case, it's not important which word we use, we just need to be pointing at the same concept so we can communicate. The key feature of a code is that is CONSTRAINED and DETERMINISTIC such that for any given input symbol X, an associated output Y is produced. This concept doesn't depend on, or care at all about whether the rules/laws/constraints are brute facts of physical law (like the "rules about the motion of physical objects"), or rules a programmer just pulled out of thin air on a whim. The provisioning of the rule is not relevant to its status AS a rule (er, production, recipe, mapping, suggest your own preferred term that fulfills the conceptual requirements).
No matter how we define the moves of a knight in the game of chess, it will have the same gravitational pull.
Yes, but what you are describing here IS a rule. It's just a natural rule, one you can't change, and you didn't create. It's consistent, predictable, symmetric. It's as "rulish" as a rule can get!
Nature does not care about rules.
Whoa. Setting aside the problematic anthropomorphic language inherent in "care", there (nature doesn't "care" about anything, it's impersonal, in my view), the only thing Nature DOES care about are its rules. That's what science does -- reverse engineers the rules of nature. Nature "cares" about them so much, and enforces them so thoroughly, that we cannot breach them, not even a little bit, not ever, so far as we can tell (religious superstitions notwithstanding, of course).
The only sensible scenario where rules are present is intelligence using the rules. In other words, whenever we see rules at play, we may be sure that the scene has been set up by intelligent players.
I have no idea what you mean by "sensible", there. That's an arbitrary distinction, some sort of ad-hoc criteria, special pleading. A rule is a rule, if it operates as rule. Where you can change it, or created it, or like it is perfectly immaterial to its status as a rule.eigenstate
January 29, 2012
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41.1.2.1.1 "The code is just a rule". Excellent. Only one more step to take. What you now have to show is nature using rules not laws in anything other than life, which is the case in point in this discussion. Rules are arbitrary and are independent of physical reality. No matter how we define the moves of a knight in the game of chess, it will have the same gravitational pull. Nature does not care about rules. The only sensible scenario where rules are present is intelligence using the rules. In other words, whenever we see rules at play, we may be sure that the scene has been set up by intelligent players.Eugene S
January 29, 2012
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So as soon as you have a copying system you have an information transfer system, ergo you have a code.
I was referring to the RNA/DNA translation code. Of course regulation of development is not easily classified as deterministic, because the outcome is modified by the environment during development. In my simple way of thinking, that makes design by foresight rather difficult, and design by cut and try more likely. I would certainly like to see a proposal from the ID community as to how a designer would avoid cut and try with regulatory genes.Petrushka
January 29, 2012
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Well, by that definition, replication came first. But I don't think it's a very useful definition.Elizabeth Liddle
January 29, 2012
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eigenstate: Ehm... It was meant to be: "I am not fastidious about the meaning of words usually".gpuccio
January 29, 2012
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eigenstate: I am fastidious about the meaning of words usually: the only important thing is that we clarify waht we mean by them. Still, I have the impression that you are strecthing a little bit the usual meaning of the word "code" here. Wikipedia defines it as follows: "A code is a rule for converting a piece of information (for example, a letter, word, phrase, or gesture) into another form or representation (one sign into another sign), not necessarily of the same type." So, in a strict sense, just copying the information as it is would not be a code. But if you want to define code any form of mapping, even of a thing on itself, I have nothing against it. Agin, the important thing is to agre on the meaning. Regarding OOL, I believe that the only code that is relevant is the genetic code, the mapping of a sequence of nucleotides (be it RNA or DNA) to proteins sequences. That has to be a code, because AAs are not nucleotides, and even if in the beginning the code could have been different (although we have no evidence of that), a code had anyway to be present, if information stored as nucleic acid was ever converted to protein information. So, the problem would be, was it replication without a code for proteins, or the opposite? I believe that replication without a code for proteins could make sense only in: a) A protein first OOL (very unlikely: no information to be propagated). b) The RNA world scenario (which IMO is as unlikely, but certainly more trendy. c) Some other form of ill defined primordial replication, like in metabolism first scenarios, or other weird hypotheses (and ill defined is definitely an euphemism). In all other cases, it would have to be: code first, than replication. Which, I believe, is even more problematic. That's why, being stupid and very simple, I believe it was: code and replication at the same time.gpuccio
January 29, 2012
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@Joe, You must be pulling Elizabeth's leg with that request, but in the case you are not.... A "straight copy" is the most basic mapping there is:
Source Target ============ 'a' => 'a' 'b' => 'b' 'c' => 'c' 'd' => 'd' ... [space] => [space] '?' => '?'
This is the most straightforward code there is, simply copying the source data to the target. If we look at a ROT13 code, we get map like this:
Source Target ============ 'a' => 'n' 'b' => 'o' 'c' => 'p' 'd' => 'q' ... 'x' => 'k' 'y' => 'l' 'z' => 'm' ... [space] => [space] '?' => '?'
If we want to use a code that maps chars to binary strings:
Source Target ============ 'a' => '01100001' 'b' => '01100010' 'c' => '01100011' 'd' => '01100100' ... 'x' => '01111000' 'y' => '01111001' 'z' => ' 01111010' ... [space] => '00100000' '?' => '00111111'
Maybe we want to use Morse Code:
Source Target ============ 'a' => '*-' 'b' => '-***' 'c' => '-*-*' 'd' => '-**' ... 'x' => '*--*' 'y' => '*-**' 'z' => ' **--' ... [space] => ' ' '?' => '**--**'
These are very basic codes, different ways to map input symbols to output symbols. Given a source symbol, there is a deterministic output for an output symbol. That is, it's a code. The cases above are bidirectional codes; given an output symbol, we can deterministically produce the input symbol. Not all codes are like that -- C++ compilers translate text based instructions that humans can read into machine code; the original text of the source code cannot be produced going the other way, from machine code to source (which is a great thing for many developers who wish to protect their intellectual property). A code is just a rule for conversion or translation. Trees encode historical weather data into their tree trunks, producing a code that we can (and do) use to obtain information about the age of the tree, and the climate dynamics it has experienced in its life. Some codes are human designed and exist just for human purposes, others are just the effects of brute physics, translations and isomorphisms produced by the interactions of matter and energy according to physical laws.eigenstate
January 29, 2012
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So as soon as you have a copying system you have an information transfer system, ergo you have a code.
Could you please provide a reference for that? If I am copying a paper verbatim, what code am I using? If I copy that same paper but want to encrypt it, then I apply some code.Joe
January 29, 2012
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Re "replication preceded the code". Replication, by definition, involves information transfer. If there is a copy of something, it contains straightforward information about the thing it is a copy of. So as soon as you have a copying system you have an information transfer system, ergo you have a code. And as soon as you have a slightly unfaithful copying system in which the copies vary in their capacity to re-copy themselves you have both "RV" and "NS", and therefore adaptive evolution.Elizabeth Liddle
January 29, 2012
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Ch: Again, it has long since been pointed out that the differential reproductive success leading to culling out of less successful variants SUBTRACTS information in the Darwinian algorithm, it does not ADD it. Recall: CV + DRS/aka NS aka survival of the fittest --> DWM aka evolution What adds information, if any, is the chance variation. The problem there is that such can only work in a context where we have small functional increments, leading generally uphill in an island of function. Of course there is a long debate on how we can assume a continent of function across the domain of the tree of life, but in fact there is little or no actual empirical support for that. The debate boils down to the advocates of darwinian macro evo want there to be such, assume life forms MUST have arisen by that sort of thing and demand the default. Not so, in science, the default is that major claims need to be empirically warranted per observation. In fact, as has been pointed out in general, once function depends on specific arrangement and co-ordinated combination of component parts, this tends strongly to isolate functional configs in the space of possible configs. By far and away, most possible configs are gibberish and non functional. Tornadoes in junk yards do not by happenstance assemble D'Arsonval galvanometer based instruments, much less 747s. At molecular scale, thermal agitation etc will not credibly assemble ATP Synthase, nor will accidents in a genome credibly create the code for such -- indeed it takes ATP to make things go! Similarly, at gross body plan level, the way we get from a bellows lung to an avian one way flow air sac lung, is not going to be by incremental changes, absent observational evidence that shows such in details. Or for that matter any number of similar cases at body plan level. Proteins of course come in isolated folds, and Gould summarised how fossils come in by sudden appearance, show stasis, and then vanish. Relatively small genome random changes are often grossly damaging or outright lethal; to the point where we have a civilisation wide phobia about radioactivity and cancer etc. (Most people don't seem to realise that radioactivity is all around us, e.g even the friendly local banana is a significant source. In the days when I regularly played with GM tubes, we expected a 15 count per minute background, at least here in the Caribbean. of course, the point is that significant excess is dangerous, but we need to have much more level headed discussion about radioactivity.) In short the empirical evidence strongly supports the existence of islands of function in biological forms also. So, the problem is that the dominant school of thought cannot explain how new body plans beyond the FSCI threshold arise, and has tried to impose itself as a default. GP is entirely correct to point out that dFSCI is an empirical reality in life, in DNA and so also proteins etc. he is entirely in order to point out the implied config spaces and search challenges, he is entirely in order to point out that on widespread empirical observation, the known and only known, routine source of dFSCI is design. Posts in this thread are cases in point, for example. He is then entirely in order to draw the inductive inference that such dFSCI is an empirically reliable sign of design as cause. Case of coded information, prescriptive information, and underlying algorithms, as well as the communication system implied by that. He is then entirely within his scientific, epistemic rights to point to cases in living forms and infer this is best explained on design. That this cuts across the worldview preferences of the dominant evo mat school of thought is simply a statement about their preferences, not about what the warrant points to. There is, and has always been, excellent reason to infer that life forms point to design. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 29, 2012
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Hi eigenstate,
I think it was you who pointed out the other “key” for me (in addition to Dr. Liddle’s insight about the “F=1 | F=0? thing) on this. gpuccio is offering dFSCI as a cryptogram challenge.
It was actually Petrushka who made that analogy.
dFSCI, then is only relevant in a “pre-evolutionary”, OOL context, where incremental evolutionary processes have not yet been reified. That’s certainly gpuccio’s prerogative to muse about the random shuffling he supposes is necessary in abiogenesis, prior to evolutionary/reproductive biology, but that’s the box it must live in, by his own design.
Actually, dFSCI can't be used to rule out random shuffling even in an OOL context, unless it is shown that there is only one 'target' -- a single type of primordial replicator that could kickstart evolution. Otherwise you have the problem of 'retrospective astonishment' all over again, where you compute the probability of hitting the target that you actually hit, rather than the probability of hitting any target that could have kickstarted the process. gpuccio has dug a deep hole for himself.champignon
January 28, 2012
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@champignon,
I feel exactly like eigenstate:
That’s frankly outrageous — dFSCI hardly even rises to the level of ‘prank’ if this is the essence of dFSCI. I feel like asking for all the time back I wasted in trying to figure your posts out…
You have an obligation to make it clear in future discussions that dFSCI is utterly irrelevant to the “designed or evolved” question. In fact, since dFSCI is useless, why bring it up at all? The only function it seems to serve is as pseudo-scientific window dressing.
I think it was you who pointed out the other "key" for me (in addition to Dr. Liddle's insight about the "F=1 | F=0" thing) on this. gpuccio is offering dFSCI as a cryptogram challenge. Once you understand this, that gpuccio isn't even addressing evolutionary processes at all, that his metric neither addresses nor even attempts to consider evolutionary processes, but only looks at what he call "RV", dFSCI can be apprehended for what it is and where it fits in the discussion (if anywhere). 'RV' was a stumbling point for me, because that expands to "Randome Variation" in my mind, where variation implies *iteration* as in evolutionary processes of inheritance with variation across reproductions. For gpuccio (and I understand English may not be his first/primary language, and I certainly couldn't converse in his native language at this level if the tables were turned!), "RV" is really "Random Combination" or "Random Shuffling". Or, better as you put it, a cryptogram -- a random guess at some ciphertext encrypted with a random key. This only obtains, at most, to questions about abiogenesis. It cannot possibly be relevant to phenomenon addressed by evolution, because evolution NOWHERE invokes such a shuffling process. It is an incremental process, and neither predicts, nor sees a practical way for such "luck" to obtain. dFSCI, then is only relevant in a "pre-evolutionary", OOL context, where incremental evolutionary processes have not yet been reified. That's certainly gpuccio's prerogative to muse about the random shuffling he supposes is necessary in abiogenesis, prior to evolutionary/reproductive biology, but that's the box it must live in, by his own design. And given what we know, even vaguely about the probabilities and phase spaces for abiogenesis -- which is virtually nothing -- such calculations aren't even worth the bandwidth it takes to send them over teh interwebs. gpuccio would be world famous (er, maybe he is, and simply hasn't told us!) if he had any grounding for his probability calculations for abiogenesis. Barring such stupendous breakthroughs, dFSCI is totally vacuous, not even a shot in the dark as a measure of the probabilities he claims. Forget being specific, he's not even got the numerators and denominators ROUGHLY approximated, not even to within some orders of magnitude, plus or minus a lot, offer a probability calculation with a straight face.eigenstate
January 28, 2012
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@material.infantacy# Petrushka, have you ever tried to convert your genetic algorithm into another type of algorithm/heuristic? Some types of GAs produce algorithms and finite automata directly; that is what the "animals" are, in some GA implementations. Tierra, for example, works at the instruction level for a virtual machine. That means that what gets created are "programs", discrete configurations of instructions that consume memory resources and CPU cycles. In those kinds of implementations, such GAs are a kind of "mother of all algorithm generator". In my past work, I (we, my team and I) have taken novel designs produced by GAs doing their brute force search and getting close to something we see as being (commercially) valuable, and we "tweak" it to push it to a more optimal position, given our goals. Since the GA is brute force, and relies on stochastic inputs to explore the search space, this is a time-saving measure for us, as we'd otherwise have to wait for it to sniff around on its own to get there (and even small adjustments where we'd like to see it go can take a VERY long time -- anyone whose worked with GAs will be perfectly clear on how "blind" they are in that respect. But even so, we are optimizing in those cases a design we'd never have come up with on our (human) own. The brute force got us very close to something we can make good use of, and we take that innovation and "put the frosting on". That produces a different kind of asset. It's GA-generated, for the most part, but human tweaked to form a kind of functional hybrid.
Do you think it’s possible to construct a heuristic that can generate comparable output with higher efficiency?
Depends on what you mean by efficiency. There is a profound insight into the aphorism "nature is the most clever designer". Natural process are unthinkably slow, and terrifyingly expensive in terms of resources consumed, but because they are not human, and not bound to human limitations of patience, persistent and creativity, they are demonstrably more efficient than human designs because they are immensely scalable. If you intend "shortest route in time and resources to a workable solution", for many targets, humans are more efficient, and by many orders of magnitude. Humans a "forward looking" simulation capability that can accomplish not just a couple, but many integrated steps that are staggeringly difficult to arrive at in an incremental, stochastically-driven search. So humans are much more efficient in one class of solution finding. And they are absolutely pathetic compared to impersonal, mindless, incremental processes that don't care about anything at all, and thus will embarrass humans when it comes to brute force methods for solutions. For that class of solutions, humans are useless, and brute force, scalable methods (like evolution) are vastly more efficient in creating effective and durable designs. This is one reasons why ID strikes so many scientists as a conceit. Once you understand the tradeoffs, what impersonal, brute force search processes are really good at and what human schemes are good at, observed biology is decidedly a "brute force" product. As glorious as humans are, it's a folly to think that kind of intelligence can compete with the mind-numbing scale of deep-time, vast resources, and stochastic drivers that just... never... stop. If there is a feedback loop in place (which there is), humans are great at local, small, and highly creative short cuts, but are wannabes at macro-design, designs that adapt, endure, thrive over eons.eigenstate
January 28, 2012
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@ScottAndrews2#40.2.1.1.8,
That’s pretty much the point. By defining in advance what the increments are, the programmer is defining the space searched. If I program a Roomba vacuum to sweep adjacent flat surfaces, I determine that it will sweep the floor on this level. And it never surprises me. If I program a GA to plan a route, I know exactly what I’m going to get – a route. There are no surprises in store. The GA plans moves from one city to the next because those are the increments it has to work with.
That's precisely what GAs do NOT generate. One of the common learning examples in GAs is the "traveling salesman program", and GAs are valuable for this kind of solution; TSP is notoriously difficult for humans to work out efficiently. So if you deploy a Roomba with a GA with back propagation that selects for efficiency, you will not be able to predict what it does; yes, it's moving across the floor, but that's no different than saying "evolution will obey the law of physics". You cannot anticipate the "design" for the local maxima for traversal routes, and this difficulty becomes more acute (the human gets worse and the GA solution gets better in terms of comparative solutions) as the complexity of the room's geometry increases. If you are not surprised by what a GA-powered Roomba does, that's a strong clue you do not understand what is happening with GAs.
It’s understandable how a GA improves upon a design and solves problems in a defined space. But how does one use a process to design something when its vast creative power depends on its lack of a target?
A GA will ALWAYS have some kind of "target", although "target" is a problematic term, prone to cause conceptual stumbling. There is always a fitness function, which does not entail either a single discrete target of any kind, or that goals or optima are known beforehand or static. Which just means that when a GA produces a new iteration of candidates, there is a feedback loop. This is why it's called a "genetic algorithm", as that concept is lifted right out of observed biology. "The environment" is the target for living organizations, measured by survival and propagation in that environment. The environment is dynamic, constantly changing. But a GA, like evolution does not need a design to improve upon. It can (and often does) begin with de novo trials, generated by a randomly selected starting point. In biology, the environment, or more precisely, the laws of physics and the energy/matter operating within it are the "defined space". That is the box that the real biological "genetic algorithm" of evolution operates in. It is a "given" and it is highly constrained, just as the floor, wheels and navigating machinery are "givens" in a GA-powered Roomba, and it operates in a highly constrained framework (the geometry of the room and its nav and sensor capabilities) in which it explores a search space. People who struggle with this concept often object to "having a target", and that's an area where casual terminology really gets in the way. GAs, like evolution, do not depend on a preset or static target. They just depend on feedback that is used to determine what candidates in its trials are biased for preservation (and further mutation) and which are not (if any, sometimes the feedback is not sufficient to discriminate, and nothing changes until either random changes in the child population trigger a disposition either way, or the environment changes, triggering a selection bias).eigenstate
January 28, 2012
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gpuccio, By your own admission, dFSCI is useless for ruling out the evolution of a biological feature and inferring design. Earlier in the thread you stressed that dFSCI applies only to purely random processes:
As repeatedly said, I use dFSCI only to model the probabilitites of getting a result in a purely random way, and for nothing else. All the rest is considered in its own context, and separately.
But evolution is not a purely random process, as you yourself noted:
b) dFSCI, or CSI, shows me that it could not have come out as the result of pure RV. c) So, some people have proposed an explanation based on a mixed algorithm: RV + NS.
And since no one in the world claims that the eye, the ribosome, the flagellum, the blood clotting cascade, or the brain came about by "pure RV", dFSCI tells us nothing about whether these evolved or were designed. It answers a question that no one is stupid enough to ask. Yet elsewhere you claim that dFSCI is actually an indicator of design:
Indeed, I have shown two kinds of function for dFSCI: being an empirical marker of design, and helping to evaluate the structure function relationship of specific proteins.
That statement is wildly inconsistent with the other two. I feel exactly like eigenstate:
That’s frankly outrageous — dFSCI hardly even rises to the level of ‘prank’ if this is the essence of dFSCI. I feel like asking for all the time back I wasted in trying to figure your posts out...
You have an obligation to make it clear in future discussions that dFSCI is utterly irrelevant to the "designed or evolved" question. In fact, since dFSCI is useless, why bring it up at all? The only function it seems to serve is as pseudo-scientific window dressing.champignon
January 28, 2012
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B: Every post under that name (which is no coincidence) is already highly questionable mockery; as you full well know or should know. (FYI, just using that name puts you for cause at strike two on threads I host. Any significant misbehaviour on your part will lead to a direct request never to post on any thread I host. Indeed, already, I would prefer that if you wish to post on threads I host, you get another handle. So, you have been served your only and final notice.) As to your O/T, again, we see there something within an island of function. The issue -- in the face of the abundant evidence that multipart function dependent on alignment and arrangement [topology] is just that: tightly constrained in the field of all possibilities -- is to arrive at shorelines of function for novel body plans, not to move about a bit within such. You can start with how does an enzyme or protein end up in folds, and how do we end up with an architecture of life based on such island of function, energetically massively unfavourable molecules, assembled step by step in machines that follow algorithms that show them to be robotic work cells. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2012
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Petrushka: I have answered those points many times. the fact that you don't agree does not mean they have not been answered. To answer a point is possible, but to convince you is probably more difficult than to traverse an infinite search space! :) First of all, thatnk you for at least saying this: Worst case scenario, it would be the change apparent from nearest cousin species. I notice gpuccio uses this better metric. I object to his assumptions, but at least he has avoided the common error of using entire sequences. It is a small admission, but coming from you it is certainly appreciated. About your second point, I have expressed many times my positions. In brief: a) A design inference can and must be made, when appropriate, even if we know nothing of the designer, and even if we have no final theory of what design is and of how it works. b) That is no excuse, however, for not trying our best to find reasonable answers to those points. c) That the designer may be a god, even omniscient, is a possibility that cannot be ruled out a priori. It is not, however, the only possibility. Whta Behe, or I, or you believe is not pertinent. d) That intelligent design by "non god" entities, like humas, is possible, is so obvious that I don't understand why you find so many problems about it. Again, my dear Wikipedia page about probability distributions is a good example. Hamlet is another. Windows 7 (!) is another. All complex mechanical machines are good examples. That humans can design, and produce objects exhibiting very high levels of dFSCI, is a fact (not a theory). That they can do so because they have conscious, meaningful, purposeful representations is a very good theory. e) That "non god" consious entities cannot traverse huge search spaces is thereofre simply wrong. We may discuss how they do that. We may believe that they cannot traverse "any" possible search space. Those are all controversial problems, about which it is certainly legitimate to debate constructively. f) Finally, it is obvious that one powerful tool (but not certainly the only tool) that human designers use if the targeted use of RV coupled to Intelligent Selection. That this type of intelligent search by random variation (what you call a GA) can accomplish much is perhaps one of the few things about which we agree. I certainly agree that it can often (but probably not always) find the function that it has already defined. I definitely disagree that it can find anything about which it has no definite, powerful enough, added information.gpuccio
January 27, 2012
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Petrushka: I realize that this is not chemistry and not biological evolution, but it is a mathematical demonstration of how variation and selection can incrementally increase utility without converging on a predetermined target. It is a mathemathical demosntration of how variation and intelligent selection can incrementally increase utility converging on a predetermined, intelligently defined, concept of utility. IOWs, that RV + Intelligent Selction can attain waht IS has chosen to obtain. That is what all GAs are. Examples of design. It is not just avoiding consonants, it has a statistical model of the characteristics of English and several other languages, and can steer the population toward sequences that are more wordlike, without having a target word. As everybody can see, it is Intelligent Selection. It has not a target word. It has a target type of word. And it finds exactly the target that it has defined. It is not different, in essence, from the infamous Weasel (although certainly smarter, but that is not difficult). I don’t follow you. What prevents biological evolution from inventing new things? It can invent new things. But not new complex functional things (things that have a new complex function). And the greatest, essential, insurmountable limit of neo darwinian evolution is that itis based on NS, not IS. IOWs, there is no contribution of intelligent understanding (meaning) and of intelligent purpose.gpuccio
January 27, 2012
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Petrushka, have you ever tried to convert your genetic algorithm into another type of algorithm/heuristic? Do you think it's possible to construct a heuristic that can generate comparable output with higher efficiency?material.infantacy
January 27, 2012
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What, me enter a contest competing against all those whiz kids and mathletes? No, not anytime soon. For any good TSP solution attempt, I think it is decidedly less critical for the attempt to make use of a GA over other approaches, such as approximation algorithms (greedy algorithms, minimum spanning trees, pairwise exchanges, etc.). Would you agree? I think we could generate good solutions, or near-optimal solutions, better (faster, more efficiently) without a GA, than without, for example, LKH (Lin-Kernighan heuristic). IOW, if a GA is not making use of an existing set of heuristics, you're back to O(n!) search times, AFAICT. On the other hand, if we implement LKH, or closest pair, or nearest neighbor, or minimum spanning trees, without a GA, we'll fare far better than the GA alone.material.infantacy
January 27, 2012
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GAs do what they do, and do it well. But you seem to have this wild idea that one day they will take on a life of their own and begin innovating beyond their programming.
I don't follow you. What prevents biological evolution from inventing new things? Say, for example, the inner ear bones?Petrushka
January 27, 2012
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GAs cannot search any space. They can search any space that can be connected by incremental change.
That's pretty much the point. By defining in advance what the increments are, the programmer is defining the space searched. If I program a Roomba vacuum to sweep adjacent flat surfaces, I determine that it will sweep the floor on this level. And it never surprises me. If I program a GA to plan a route, I know exactly what I'm going to get - a route. There are no surprises in store. The GA plans moves from one city to the next because those are the increments it has to work with. GAs do what they do, and do it well. But you seem to have this wild idea that one day they will take on a life of their own and begin innovating beyond their programming. As far as I can tell you think this because you think it's what happened in biology. And yet you hope to use it to provide the evidence of what can happen in biology. You are trapped in your circle. By your own admission, nothing can release you except someone proving that it's impossible, which no one can. It's understandable how a GA improves upon a design and solves problems in a defined space. But how does one use a process to design something when its vast creative power depends on its lack of a target? If you want a specific function then you must set it as the target. But a GA or any other form of evolution must work on smaller increments of change. Otherwise you are hoping to "poof" function into existence. The only way to use evolution to reach a target is to do some of the work for it and start it closer to its target. And that is exactly what GAs do. Invent the salesman, the product, the road, and the transportation and the GA can swoop in at the end and make it efficient. But it's pure denial to see a salesman traveling efficiently between cities selling products and attribute any significant part of that functional activity to the GA.ScottAndrews2
January 27, 2012
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@44.1.1.1.2 Kairosfocus, I entirely fail to see any mocking in my post. I also fail to see why, once there is a system of replication with variation, some random event process such as gene duplication followed by mutation can't result in a new function - thereby incrementing the repertoire of functions in that genome. I believe such things have been documented. Disagreement is not mockery, my friend On a slightly different subject, you may be interested to read Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2000 May 9; 97(10): 5095–5100. "DNA polymerase active site is highly mutable: Evolutionary consequences"Bydand
January 27, 2012
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GAs cannot search any space. They can search any space that can be connected by incremental change. They are neither trivial nor tautological. I wrote this because someone a few years ago claimed that a GA could not generate ten letter words. My goal was to write one that could not only generate ten letter words, but do so without a specific target. It is not just avoiding consonants, it has a statistical model of the characteristics of English and several other languages, and can steer the population toward sequences that are more wordlike, without having a target word. Welsh: QYZSHERHSE QYSSHERHSE GYSSHERMSE GYSSAERMSE GYSSAERWSE GYSSEERWSS GYSSEERUSS GYSSETRUSS GYSSEURUSS GYSSEURASS French: QYZSHERHSE OEISHERHSE OEICHERHSE AEICHERHEE ALICHERPEE ALICHEREEE ALICHEREUE ALICHEREUR ALICHERAUR ALICHERASR German: QYZSHERHSE YZSHERHSET YZSHERISET YZSHERIGET GISHERIGET CISHERIGET EISHERIGET RISHERIGET WISHERIGET SISHERIGET Spanish: QYZSHERHSE QYZSTERHSE YZSTERASED ZSTERASEDM ZSTERASENT ZUTERALENT ZLTERALENT VLTERALENT VNTERALENT KNTERALENT Given 50 or a hundred generations it can make ten letter words. But it can also invent words. It can produce sequences that make sense but are not in the dictionary. There are actually people who get paid by corporations for doing this. The goal is new tradenames. As for arranging words with proper grammar, that can be done (although not by me). As for useful thoughts: they are rare. Almost extinct. :)Petrushka
January 27, 2012
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Also, letters of the alphabet are by their very nature pronouncable. Even the most random string of letters could be pronounced if you really tried. Finding combinations that don't include three consecutive consonants is rather trivial compared to finding words with meaning, which in turn is trivial compared to arranging words with proper grammar, which is trivial compared to arranging grammatically correct sentences with actual meaning and accuracy, which is trivial compared to forming thoughts to express in words, which is still easier than forming new, useful thoughts.ScottAndrews2
January 27, 2012
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is a mathematical demonstration of how variation and selection can incrementally increase utility without converging on a predetermined target.
Can you clarify what the selection is? Why would ZYZSHERASE get selected? I understand you are saying that the other words are selectable on the basis that they are almost pronouncable. But lowering the standard for selection to what your GA is able to meet doesn't show anything. Every GA ever written demonstrates that a GA is pretty much by definition capable of searching whatever space it was written to search. But what is the point in writing a GA that does nothing special at all and then setting the goalposts for success right within its demonstrated range?ScottAndrews2
January 27, 2012
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gpuccio has made detailed arguments to demonstrate that no convincing explanation has ever been given of how feature X could have evolved.
Detailed, but not convincing. It still boils down to the fact that you have unilaterally decided that evolution is impossible. Among your unconvincing arguments is you assertion that because a sequence has no living cousins it must have had no parents. Your argument boils down to asserting that protein domains are virgin births. You simply don't understand how variation and selection can produce a child with no living cousins, but the possibility is easily demonstrated. I ran my word generator three times starting with the same seed. In only nine generations I have children that are mostly unrelated to the seed and to each other. They are beginning to look like pronounceable English words, but they are not converging on a target like Weasel. QYZSHERHSE ZYZSHERASE ZYASHERASE ZYASPERASE YASPERASED YASPERATED YASMERATED YAOMERATED VOOMERATED QYZSHERHSE QYLSHERISE YLSHERISEN PLSHERISER PLSTERISEL PYSTERISEL PYSTERISEW PASTERISEW PASTERISEM QYZSHERHSE QYZSHERMAE QYESHERMAE QYESHERIAE QYESHERIZE QLESHERIZE QUESHERIZE MUESHERIZE MUESHERINE I realize that this is not chemistry and not biological evolution, but it is a mathematical demonstration of how variation and selection can incrementally increase utility without converging on a predetermined target. Plus, it demonstrates that sequences can quickly diverge in many directions, and quickly depart from the ancestral sequence, and from each other. The problem with your argument is that you have decided a priori that this cannot happen in biology. You do not have the history of the sequences. You have no actual evidence that there is not an incremental path to modern sequences. It's just what you claim.Petrushka
January 27, 2012
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That's where I have to stop myself, because I know I'm not really qualified to discuss ID in depth. Only to shoot off about evolution. But regarding this:
The folding game has been mentioned, and I admit it is possible for humans to beat early generation GAs at some things. But the GAs will be improved. It’s primarily a matter of tweaking the sources of variation.
The rising tide lifts all boats. Or however that goes. Not long ago the technology didn't exist to enable human designers to play with proteins like they were video games. You use the example of checkers. Chess is also a good example. Comparing them to the task of putting together functional proteins, it's noteworthy that inexperienced humans are beating the GAs even though they haven't had 5 or ten years or a lifetime to develop strategies. They don't have great opponents to compete against. Don't forget, it takes a really good chess player to beat the computer. But in this case the computer is getting beat by beginners. Why bet that GAs will improve but that beginners won't get better at something?ScottAndrews2
January 27, 2012
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