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Axe on specific barriers to macro-level Darwinian Evolution due to protein formation (and linked islands of specific function)

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A week ago, VJT put up a useful set of excerpts from Axe’s 2010 paper on proteins and barriers they pose to Darwinian, blind watchmaker thesis evolution. During onward discussions, it proved useful to focus on some excerpts where Axe spoke to some numerical considerations and the linked idea of islands of specific function deeply isolated in AA sequence and protein fold domain space, though he did not use those exact terms.

I think it worth the while to headline the clips, for reference (instead of leaving them deep in a discussion thread):

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ABSTRACT: >> Four decades ago, several scientists suggested that the impossibility of any evolutionary process sampling anything but a miniscule fraction of the possible protein sequences posed a problem for the evolution of new proteins. This potential problem—the sampling problem—was largely ignored, in part because those who raised it had to rely on guesswork to fill some key gaps in their understanding of proteins. The huge advances since that time call for a care -ful reassessment of the issue they raised. Focusing specifically on the origin of new protein folds, I argue here that the sampling problem remains. The difficulty stems from the fact that new protein functions, when analyzed at the level of new beneficial phenotypes, typically require multiple new protein folds, which in turn require long stretches of new protein sequence. Two conceivable ways for this not to pose an insurmountable barrier to Darwinian searches exist. One is that protein function might generally be largely indifferent to protein sequence. The other is that rela-tively simple manipulations of existing genes, such as shuffling of genetic modules, might be able to produce the necessary new folds. I argue that these ideas now stand at odds both with known principles of protein structure and with direct experimental evidence . . . >>

Pp 5 – 6: >> . . . we need to quantify a boundary value for m, meaning a value which, if exceeded, would solve the whole sampling problem. To get this we begin by estimating the maximum number of opportunities for spontane-ous mutations to produce any new species-wide trait, meaning a trait that is fixed within the population through natural selection (i.e., selective sweep). Bacterial species are most conducive to this because of their large effective population sizes. 3 So let us assume, generously, that an ancient bacterial species sustained an effective population size of 10 ^10 individuals [26] while passing through 10^4 generations per year. After five billion years, such a species would produce a total of 5 × 10 ^ 23 (= 5 × 10^ 9 x 10^4 x 10 ^10 ) cells that happen (by chance) to avoid the small-scale extinction events that kill most cells irrespective of fitness. These 5 × 10 ^23 ‘lucky survivors’ are the cells available for spontaneous muta-tions to accomplish whatever will be accomplished in the species. This number, then, sets the maximum probabilistic resources that can be expended on a single adaptive step. Or, to put this another way, any adaptive step that is unlikely to appear spontaneously in that number of cells is unlikely to have evolved in the entire history of the species.

In real bacterial populations, spontaneous mutations occur in only a small fraction of the lucky survivors (roughly one in 300 [27]). As a generous upper limit, we will assume that all lucky survivors happen to receive mutations in portions of the genome that are not constrained by existing functions 4 , making them free to evolve new ones. At most, then, the number of different viable genotypes that could appear within the lucky survivors is equal to their number, which is 5 × 10^ 23 . And again, since many of the genotype differences would not cause distinctly new proteins to be produced, this serves as an upper bound on the number of new protein sequences that a bacterial species may have sampled in search of an adaptive new protein structure.

Let us suppose for a moment, then, that protein sequences that produce new functions by means of new folds are common enough for success to be likely within that number of sampled sequences. Taking a new 300-residue structure as a basis for calculation (I show this to be modest below), we are effectively supposing that the multiplicity factor m introduced in the previous section can be as large as 20 ^300 / 5×10^ 23 ~ 10 ^366 . In other words, we are supposing that particular functions requiring a 300-residue structure are real-izable through something like 10 ^366 distinct amino acid sequences. If that were so, what degree of sequence degeneracy would be implied? More specifically, if 1 in 5×10 23 full-length sequences are supposed capable of performing the function in question, then what proportion of the twenty amino acids would have to be suit-able on average at any given position? The answer is calculated as the 300 th root of (5×10 23 ) -1 , which amounts to about 83%, or 17 of the 20 amino acids. That is, by the current assumption proteins would have to provide the function in question by merely avoid-ing three or so unacceptable amino acids at each position along their lengths.

No study of real protein functions suggests anything like this degree of indifference to sequence. In evaluating this, keep in mind that the indifference referred to here would have to charac-terize the whole protein rather than a small fraction of it. Natural proteins commonly tolerate some sequence change without com- plete loss of function, with some sites showing more substitutional freedom than others. But this does not imply that most mutations are harmless. Rather, it merely implies that complete inactivation with a single amino acid substitution is atypical when the start-ing point is a highly functional wild-type sequence (e.g., 5% of single substitutions were completely inactivating in one study [28]). This is readily explained by the capacity of well-formed structures to sustain moderate damage without complete loss of function (a phenomenon that has been termed the buffering effect [25]). Conditional tolerance of that kind does not extend to whole proteins, though, for the simple reason that there are strict limits to the amount of damage that can be sustained.

A study of the cumulative effects of conservative amino acid substitutions, where the replaced amino acids are chemically simi-lar to their replacements, has demonstrated this [23]. Two unrelat-ed bacterial enzymes, a ribonuclease and a beta-lactamase, were both found to suffer complete loss of function in vivo at or near the point of 10% substitution, despite the conservative nature of the changes. Since most substitutions would be more disruptive than these conservative ones, it is clear that these protein functions place much more stringent demands on amino acid sequences than the above supposition requires.

Two experimental studies provide reliable data for estimating the proportion of protein sequences that perform specified func -tions [–> note the terms] . One study focused on the AroQ-type chorismate mutase, which is formed by the symmetrical association of two identical 93-residue chains [24]. These relatively small chains form a very simple folded structure (Figure 5A). The other study examined a 153-residue section of a 263-residue beta-lactamase [25]. That section forms a compact structural component known as a domain within the folded structure of the whole beta-lactamase (Figure 5B). Compared to the chorismate mutase, this beta-lactamase do-main has both larger size and a more complex fold structure.

In both studies, large sets of extensively mutated genes were produced and tested. By placing suitable restrictions on the al-lowed mutations and counting the proportion of working genes that result, it was possible to estimate the expected prevalence of working sequences for the hypothetical case where those restric-tions are lifted. In that way, prevalence values far too low to be measured directly were estimated with reasonable confidence.

The results allow the average fraction of sampled amino acid substitutions that are functionally acceptable at a single amino acid position to be calculated. By raising this fraction to the power l, it is possible to estimate the overall fraction of working se-quences expected when l positions are simultaneously substituted (see reference 25 for details). Applying this approach to the data from the chorismate mutase and the beta-lactamase experiments gives a range of values (bracketed by the two cases) for the preva-lence of protein sequences that perform a specified function. The reported range [25] is one in 10 ^77 (based on data from the more complex beta-lactamase fold; l = 153) to one in 10 ^53 (based on the data from the simpler chorismate mutase fold, adjusted to the same length: l = 153). As remarkable as these figures are, par-ticularly when interpreted as probabilities, they were not without precedent when reported [21, 22]. Rather, they strengthened an existing case for thinking that even very simple protein folds can place very severe constraints on sequence.  [–> Islands of function issue.]

Rescaling the figures to reflect a more typical chain length of 300 residues gives a prevalence range of one in 10 ^151 to one in 10 ^104 . On the one hand, this range confirms the very highly many-to-one mapping of sequences to functions. The corresponding range of m values is 10 ^239 (=20 ^300 /10 ^151 ) to 10 ^286 (=20 ^300 /10 ^104 ), meaning that vast numbers of viable sequence possibilities exist for each protein function. But on the other hand it appears that these functional sequences are nowhere near as common as they would have to be in order for the sampling problem to be dis-missed. The shortfall is itself a staggering figure—some 80 to 127 orders of magnitude (comparing the above prevalence range to the cutoff value of 1 in 5×10 23 ). So it appears that even when m is taken into account, protein sequences that perform particular functions are far too rare to be found by random sampling.>>

Pp 9 – 11: >> . . . If aligned but non-matching residues are part-for-part equivalents, then we should be able to substitute freely among these equivalent pairs without impair-ment. Yet when protein sequences were even partially scrambled in this way, such that the hybrids were about 90% identical to one of the parents, none of them had detectable function. Considering the sensitivity of the functional test, this implies the hybrids had less than 0.1% of normal activity [23]. So part-for-part equiva-lence is not borne out at the level of amino acid side chains.

In view of the dominant role of side chains in forming the bind-ing interfaces for higher levels of structure, it is hard to see how those levels can fare any better. Recognizing the non-generic [–> that is specific and context sensitive] na-ture of side chain interactions, Voigt and co-workers developed an algorithm that identifies portions of a protein structure that are most nearly self-contained in the sense of having the fewest side-chain contacts with the rest of the fold [49]. Using that algorithm, Meyer and co-workers constructed and tested 553 chimeric pro-teins that borrow carefully chosen blocks of sequence (putative modules) from any of three natural beta lactamases [50]. They found numerous functional chimeras within this set, which clearly supports their assumption that modules have to have few side chain contacts with exterior structure if they are to be transport-Able.

At the same time, though, their results underscore the limita-tions of structural modularity. Most plainly, the kind of modular-ity they demonstrated is not the robust kind that would be needed to explain new protein folds. The relatively high sequence simi-larity (34–42% identity [50]) and very high structural similarity of the parent proteins (Figure 8) favors successful shuffling of modules by conserving much of the overall structural context. Such conservative transfer of modules does not establish the ro-bust transportability that would be needed to make new folds. Rather, in view of the favorable circumstances, it is striking how low the success rate was. After careful identification of splice sites that optimize modularity, four out of five tested chimeras were found to be completely non-functional, with only one in nine being comparable in activity to the parent enzymes [50]. In other words, module-like transportability is unreliable even under extraordinarily favorable circumstances [–> these are not generally speaking standard bricks that will freely fit together in any freely plug- in compatible pattern to assemble a new structure] . . . .

Graziano and co-workers have tested robust modularity directly by using amino acid sequences from natural alpha helices, beta strands, and loops (which connect helices and/or strands) to con-struct a large library of gene segments that provide these basic structural elements in their natural genetic contexts [52]. For those elements to work as robust modules, their structures would have to be effectively context-independent, allowing them to be com-bined in any number of ways to form new folds. A vast number of combinations was made by random ligation of the gene segments, but a search through 10^8 variants for properties that may be in-dicative of folded structure ultimately failed to identify any folded proteins. After a definitive demonstration that the most promising candidates were not properly folded, the authors concluded that “the selected clones should therefore not be viewed as ‘native-like’ proteins but rather ‘molten-globule-like’” [52], by which they mean that secondary structure is present only transiently, flickering in and out of existence along a compact but mobile chain. This contrasts with native-like structure, where secondary structure is locked-in to form a well defined and stable tertiary Fold . . . .

With no discernable shortcut to new protein folds, we conclude that the sampling problem really is a problem for evolutionary accounts of their origins. The final thing to consider is how per-vasive this problem is . . . Continuing to use protein domains as the basis of analysis, we find that domains tend to be about half the size of complete protein chains (compare Figure 10 to Figure 1), implying that two domains per protein chain is roughly typical. This of course means that the space of se-quence possibilities for an average domain, while vast, is nowhere near as vast as the space for an average chain. But as discussed above, the relevant sequence space for evolutionary searches is determined by the combined length of all the new domains needed to produce a new beneficial phenotype. [–> Recall, courtesy Wiki, phenotype: “the composite of an organism’s observable characteristics or traits, such as its morphology, development, biochemical or physiological properties, phenology, behavior, and products of behavior (such as a bird’s nest). A phenotype results from the expression of an organism’s genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.”]

As a rough way of gauging how many new domains are typi-cally required for new adaptive phenotypes, the SUPERFAMILY database [54] can be used to estimate the number of different protein domains employed in individual bacterial species, and the EcoCyc database [10] can be used to estimate the number of metabolic processes served by these domains. Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species 11, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991 (12) . Compar-ing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli,13 provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on aver-age, for every new metabolic pathway 14 . In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10 ^159 to one in 10 ^308 possibilities 15 , something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin. >>
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Those who argue for incrementalism or exaptation and fortuitous coupling or Lego brick-like modularity or the like need to address these and similar issues. END

PS: Just for the objectors eager to queue up, just remember, the Darwinism support essay challenge on actual evidence for the tree of life from the root up to the branches and twigs is still open after over two years, with the following revealing Smithsonian Institution diagram showing the first reason why, right at the root of the tree of life:

Darwin-ToL-full-size-copy

No root, no shoots, folks.  (Where, the root must include a viable explanation of gated encapsulation, protein based metabolism and cell functions, code based protein assembly and the von Neumann self replication facility keyed to reproducing the cell.)

Comments
Moreover, quantum entanglement/information, which Einstein termed 'spooky action at a distance', has been verified to be 'non-local' to an almost absurd level of precision, (70 standard deviations):
Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons - Jun 11, 2013 Excerpt:– requiring no assumptions or correction of count rates – that confirmed quantum entanglement to nearly 70 standard deviations.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
That quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints (Bell Aspect, Leggett, Zeilinger, etc..), should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale is a direct empirical falsification of Darwinian claims, for how can the beyond space and time, ‘non-local’, quantum entanglement effect in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) cause when the quantum entanglement effect falsified material particles as its own causation in the first place? Appealing to the probability of various 'random' configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! In other words, to give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put even more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘special’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! And although Naturalists have proposed various, far fetched, naturalistic scenarios to try to get around the Theistic implications of quantum non-locality, none of the ‘far fetched’ naturalistic solutions, in themselves, are compatible with the reductive materialism that undergirds neo-Darwinian thought.
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism By Bruce L Gordon, Ph.D Excerpt: The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical – and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939
Thus, as far as empirical science itself is concerned, Neo-Darwinism is falsified in its claim that information is ‘emergent’ from a materialistic basis.bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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Although Wagner and me-think appeal to higher dimensions in order to solve the insurmountable barrier imposed by a blind search in the real world, it is interesting to note that higher dimensions, specifically the quarter-power scaling which is ubiquitous through biology, quater power scaling which operates as if it were 4-Dimensional, provides its own unique falsification to neo-Darwinian claims:
The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf
Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini put the insurmountable problem that this higher 4-dimensional power scaling presents to Darwinian explanations as such:
“Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection.” Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79
Here is, what a Darwinist termed, a ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathway (which operates as if it were ’4-Dimensional):
ExPASy - Biochemical Pathways - interactive schematic http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1
And remember, Darwinian evolution has yet to explain a single gene/protein of those ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathways.
"Charles Darwin said (paraphrase), 'If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.' Well that condition has been met time and time again. Basically every gene, every protein fold. There is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in a gradualist way. It's a mirage. None of it happens that way. - Doug Axe PhD. - Nothing In Molecular Biology Is Gradual - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5347797/
The reason why a ‘higher dimensional’ 4-Dimensional structure, such as a ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathway, would be, for all intents and purposes, completely invisible to a 3-Dimensional process, such as Natural Selection, is best illustrated by ‘flatland’:
Flatland – 3D to 4D shift – Dr. Quantum – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
I personally hold that the reason why internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional, instead of as if they three dimensional, is because of exactly what Darwinian evolution has consistently failed to explain the origination of. i.e. functional information. ‘Higher dimensional’ information, which is bursting at the seams in life in every DNA, RNA and protein molecule, simply cannot be reduced to any 3-dimensional energy-matter basis. This point is easily demonstrated by the fact that the same exact information can be stored on an almost endless variety of material substrates. Moreover, Dr. Andy C. McIntosh, who is the Professor of Thermodynamics Combustion Theory at the University of Leeds (the highest teaching/research rank in U.K. university hierarchy), has written a peer-reviewed paper in which he holds that it is 'non-material information' which is constraining the local thermodynamics of a cell to be in such a extremely high non-equilibrium state:
Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems - Andy C. McIntosh - May 2013 Excerpt: The third view then that we have proposed in this paper is the top down approach. In this paradigm, the information is non-material and constrains the local thermodynamics to be in a non-equilibrium state of raised free energy. It is the information which is the active ingredient, and the matter and energy are passive to the laws of thermodynamics within the system. As a consequence of this approach, we have developed in this paper some suggested principles of information exchange which have some parallels with the laws of thermodynamics which undergird this approach.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0008
Dr. McIntosh's contention that 'non-material information' must be constraining life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium has now been borne out empirically. i.e. It is now found that 'non-local', beyond space-time matter-energy, Quantum entanglement/information 'holds' DNA (and proteins) together:
Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint - 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - short video https://vimeo.com/92405752 Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/
bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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I don't know about you all but I find hyperbolic dimensions ,the shrinking of space to be searched and lowering probabilities fascinating.Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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"Perhaps, you too would wish to take a serious try at the 2-year long TOL challenge?" Wagner proposes ocean vents created first life. Lots of first life in many places, but one of those first lifes beat out the other first lifes ("through natural selection or chance") to become the only surviving first life. "It has to be true" says Wagner. Well then, there you have it. A cool story for sure.ppolish
November 15, 2014
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P. falciparum should have read Wagner's book before making 10^20 attempts at finding a way to resist chloroquine.RexTugwell
November 15, 2014
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Correction @ 33: so even if the entire search space is gargantuan, the search space the space to be searched for new phenotype is so tiny that all those improbable probabilities vanish.Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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Liesa, KF, Joe There is no preexisting solution circle , the random walk through network is till a new genotype/phenotype/metabolism/process is found. This step is 10 in a large network in 1 dimension. In a hyper dimension, this step is reduced to a fraction of one step, so even if the entire search space is gargantuan, the search space is so tiny that all those improbable probabilities vanish. Excerpt from Wagner:
Like the metabolic library, the protein library is a high-dimensional cube, with similar texts near one another. Each protein text perches on one vertex of this hypercube, and just like in the metabolic library, each protein has many immediate neighbors, proteins that differ from it in exactly one letter and that occupy adjacent corners of the hypercube. If you wanted to change the first of the amino acids in a protein comprising merely a hundred amino acids, you would have nineteen other amino acids to choose from, yielding nineteen neighbors that differ from the protein in the first amino acid. By the same process, the protein has nineteen neighbors that differ from it in the second amino acid, nineteen neighbors that differ from it in the third, the fourth, the fifth, and all the way through the hundredth amino acid. So all in all, our protein has 100 × 19 or 1,900 immediate neighbors. A neighborhood like this is already large, and it would be even larger if you changed not one but two or more amino acids. Clearly, this can’t be bad for innovation: With one or a few amino acid changes, evolution can explore many proteins.
I suggest you all read the book to understand Wagner's arguments. (Note: I am not asking you to buy - there are a myriad places from where you can borrow or download.)Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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Joe, you have a point just as natural selection is not a selection only an analogy. However we can use that to summarise dynamic-stochastic walks [oops] that are blind [oops another personification] or non-foresighted [yikes, double oops] across abstract configuration spaces [oops not observable like space about us another analogy], and having a challenge [oh, trouble again . . . ] to encounter islands of function [whoops yet another analogy]. KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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BTW, unguided evolution is not a searchJoe
November 15, 2014
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keith s:
I will be quoting liberally from Andreas Wagner’s new book Arrival of the Fittest.
And we know what you post will be pure speculation and will be evidence-free. So quote away.Joe
November 15, 2014
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Me_Think @26 But what you say about number of steps needed to find a new phenotype can only make sense granted you're already in your circle of solutions. That's the first thing. And the second is that it anyway doesn't make any sense since why then are you comparing the volume of that circle to the volume of the configuration space? To make numbers look nore impressive? It's just a silly trick, looks like thatLesia
November 15, 2014
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MT, 26: Pardon, but repeating an error and not responding to its correction (which is in 22 above and is already a repeat of earlier corrections that you also ignored . . . ) above, is not helping to move things forward. What you re doing is repackaging the problem and presenting it back as the solution, no the sparse search for needles in a haystack is the problem not the solution, whether you try random walks or dusts [scattered samples) makes little difference I comment on points interwoven with your argument: >> A ball (representing the search volume) with constant radius occupies ever-decreasing fractions of a cube’s volume as dimensions increases.>> a: Yes, the neighbourhood [Mathematical senses are intended, extending Hamming distance] of a point in a config space of large dimensionality and range of possible configs will increasingly be a tiny fraction of the space. b: Mix in sharply restricted resources of about 10^87 possible atomic event scale moves in the sol system [10^111 for the cosmos as a whole as observed] will be a vanishingly small fraction of at least 3.27 * 10^150 to 1.07*10^301 possibilities for just 500 - 1,00 bits to specify cells in the space, i.e. as many dimensions. c: FSCO/I for reasons already pointed out will be deeply isolated and you have a blind no steering intelligence search on chance plus necessity, a dynamic-stochastic process. d: Sampling theory will rapidly tell you that under such circumstances you have little or no warrant for hoping to find zones of interest X that are isolated in the space, where the set of clusters of cells z1, z2, . . . zn (the islands of function collectively) is a very small fraction, for reasons based on constraints on configs imposed by interactive functionally specific organisation. e: Blind chance and mechanical necessity is not a reasonable search paradigm. Intelligent design routinely produces FSCO/I. >>I will quote Wagner himself: This volume decreases not just for my example of a 15 percent ratio of volumes, but for any ratio, even one as high as 75 percent, where the volume drops to 49 percent in three dimensions, to 28 percent in four, to 14.7 percent in five, and so on, to ever-smaller fractions. >> f: As the proportion of searchable cells relative to the possibilities W falls away exponentially with number of bits, the search becomes ever more sparse and likely to be unfruitful. Beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of space (and bits is WLOG) it is patently futile. Matters not if you have a dust or a random walk with drift or whatever combi of the two or whatever. g: You are inadvertently confirming the empirical strength of the logic of the design inference explanatory filter. >>What this means: In a network of N nodes and N-1 neighbors, if in 1 dimension, 10 steps are required to to discover new genotype/procedure, in higher dimension, this 10 steps reduces drastically to fraction of 1 step ! >> h: Again, restating the problem of sparse blind search for needles in a vast haystack as if that were the solution. i: The implicit assumption in the context of the Tree of Life model, is that you are already on an imagined vast continent of function, with nicely behaved fitness functions that allow near-neighbourhood searches to branch on up to the twigs such as we are on. j: That is why I first put up the Smithsonian TOL to remind us that all of this has to start with blind watchmaker mechanisms in Darwin's pond or the like, and you have to find the shoreline of function in a context of gated, encapsulated self-assembling metabolic automata that use codes to control assembly machines to make the vital proteins, which are needed in the hundreds for just the first relevant cell. k: Where there is zero reason to believe on evidence that the sort of islands of function imposed by interactive functional organisation vanish for ribosomes or embryologically and ecologically feasible body plans. l: So, the issue of resolving the blind watchmaker thesis on empirical evidence and evident reason -- not imposed a priori Lewontin-Sagan style materialist ideology -- remains. Perhaps, you too would wish to take a serious try at the 2-year long TOL challenge? KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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F/N: I responded to WJM vs Ewert and KS on alleged circularity in the understanding of CSI here. I clip: ___________ >> 1: FSCO/I — the operationally relevant thing — is observable as a phenomenon in and of itself. It depends on multiple, correctly arranged and coupled, interacting components to achieve said functionality. 2: That tight coupling and organisation with interaction sharply constrains the clusters of possible configs consistent with the functionality. Where, 3: There are a great many more clumped configs in the possibilities space that are non functional. (An assembled Abu 6500 C3 reel will work, you can shake up a bag of parts as long as you like, generating all sorts of clumped configs, which predictably will not.) 4: The number of ways to scatter the parts is even hugely more, and again, non functional. 5: The wiring diagram for the reel is highly informational, and the difference between scattered or clumped at random in a bag and properly assembled is manifest. That is, qualitatively observable. 6: The wiring diagram can be specified in a string of structured y/n q’s defining the functional cluster of states (there are tolerances, it is not a single point.) That allows us to quantify the info in bits, functionally specific info. 7: Now, let us define a world as a 1 m^3 cubic vat in which parts are floating around based on some version of Brownian motion, with maybe drifts, governed by let’s just use Newtonian dynamics. Blind chance and mechanical necessity. 8: It is maximally unlikely that under these circumstances a successful 6500 C3 will be assembled. 9: By contrast, feed in some programmed assembly robots, that find and clump parts then arrange in a complete reel per the diagram . . . quite feasible. And such would with high likelihood, succeed. 10: So, we see that blind chance and mechanical necessity will predictably not find the island of function (it is highly improbable on such a mechanism) but is quite readily achieved on intelligently directed configuration. 11: Now, observe sitting there on your desk, a 6500 c3 reel. It is not known how it came to be, to you. But it exhibits FSCO/I . . . just the gear train alone is decisive on that, never mind the carbontex slipping clutch drag and other features such as the spool on bearings etc. 12: On your knowledge of config spaces, islands of function and the different capabilities of the relevant mechanisms, you would be fully entitled to hold FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, and to — having done a back of envelope calc on the possibility space of configs and the search limitations of the sol system (sparse, needle in haystack search) — hold that it is maximally implausible that a blind dynamic-stochastic mechanism as described or similar could reasonably account for the reel. 13: Thus, the reasoning that infers design on FSCO/I is not circular, but is empirically and analytically grounded. 14: It extends to the micro world also. For, say the protein synthesis mechanism in the ribosome and associated things, is a case of an assembly work cell with tape based numerical control. There is no good reason to infer that such a system with so much of FSCO/I came about by blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of the observable cosmos. But, assembly according to a plan, makes sense. 15: Some will object by inserting self replication and an imagined deep past. That simply inadvertently highlights that OOL is pivotal, as the ribosome system is key to the cell and proteins. 16: Where, the origin of the additional capacity of self replication becomes important, and brings to bear Paley’s thought exercise of the time keeping self replicating watch in Ch II of his 1804 Nat Theol. (Which, for coming on 160 years, seems to have been shunted to one side in haste to dismiss his watch vs stone in the field argument. And BTW, Abu started as a watch making then taxi meter manufacturing company, then turned to the SIMPLER machine, fishing reels, when WW II cut off markets. A desperation move that launched a legend.) 17: So, FSCO/I remains a pivotal issue, once we start from the root of the TOL. And, it allows us to see how it is that design is a better explanation for specified, functional complexity than blind chance and mechanical necessity. (Never mind side tracks on nested hierarchies and the like.) >> And with a follow up to MF on the relationship with Irreducible Complexity: >> IC entities are linked to FSCO/I, as in that case the interactive organised complex functionality includes a core of parts that are each necessary for the core functionality. IC is thus a subset of FSCO/I, which is the relevant form of CSI. By contrast dFSCI is another sub set of FSCO/I, but in many cases due to redundancies [error correcting codes come to mind], there will be no set of core parts in a data string such that if any one of such is removed function ceases. CSI is a superset that abstracts specification away from being strictly functional. >> ____________ KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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InVivoVeritas, KF and Lesia, The concept is quite simple: A ball (representing the search volume) with constant radius occupies ever-decreasing fractions of a cube’s volume as dimensions increases. I will quote Wagner himself:
This volume decreases not just for my example of a 15 percent ratio of volumes, but for any ratio, even one as high as 75 percent, where the volume drops to 49 percent in three dimensions, to 28 percent in four, to 14.7 percent in five, and so on, to ever-smaller fractions.
What this means: In a network of N nodes and N-1 neighbors, if in 1 dimension, 10 steps are required to to discover new genotype/procedure, in higher dimension, this 10 steps reduces drastically to fraction of 1 step !Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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Me_Think @11, wait, what your calculations in there show is not that only 3.14% of the search space are to be searched for solution, or I'm not getting you the right way. You say, for instance, >In 3 dimensions,the search area will be 4/3 x pi x 10^3 >Area to search is now cube (because of 3 dimensions) = 100^3. >Thus the % of area to be searched falls to just 4188.79/100^3 = 0.41 % only. But that's your problem in fact! - You've just shown that under described conditions the chance for a randomly picked point to be from your circle of solutions is 4188.79/100^3 - that's what you've shown (and, obviously, the greater the overall volume of the configuration space and the smaller the circle of solutions - the lower are the chances). And could you be more specific about these hypervolumes - it's not maths but the idea behind these calculations which is not clear, it's just a maths trick of an illusionist it seems, which in no way solves anything, because you just redefine the way you calculate probabilities it seems (you take these geometric probabilities but use concepts valid for hyperbolic geometry instead of Euclidean, right?), but how does it help solve the real search issues? What is in there which is so devastating for ID?Lesia
November 15, 2014
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F/N: Almost anything dissolved in water will reduce its freezing point, starting with common salt. A far better challenge to address is origin of the protein synthesis system and associated codes, as well as of the cluster of relevant proteins in AA chain space, as in the OP, and the similar challenge to explain body plans. As in codes + regulation --> proteins --> cell types (with self replication requiring codes etc in a vNSR) --> tissues --> organs --> systems --> organisms with body plans. In short, back to the challenge. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2014
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Mung, two years ago KS dodged the challenge to warrant the blind watchmaker claim from the root in OOL up, to try to get back to the favourite tactic of objecting to design theory similar to the latest foray. On this one, he simply refuses to acknowledge the fatal flaws and his rhetorical black knight status per the skit. I still say -- as my old Gramps used to, every tub must stand on its own bottom. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2014
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MT & IVV: IVV is right. It has long since been pointed out that config spaces are multidimensional, and that representation on coords giving degrees of freedom per component bring in for each: location relative to an origin, 3 degrees of freedom (x,y,z), plus yaw, pitch, roll (we can use the ox axis as polar axis to define the equivalent of North). Six dimensions per part. Next, we have n parts, n being about 60 for the Abu 6500 3c, i.e. we see 360 dimensions to its config space. For a body of gas, n is of order 10^20 or better, etc. Now, what MT (who has been previously corrected but has ignored it) is raising is effectively that once we have an initial location in the config space and undertake a random walk with drift, we go to a neighbourhood ball of other points, which as the space becomes arbitrarily large becomes an ever smaller (eventually effectively vanishingly small) fraction of the space. This allows us to see how MT has begged the key questions and has as a result handed back the problem as though it were the solution, strawmannising and begging the question: 1 --> WLOG, we can discuss on digital strings, in effect chains of structured y/n q's that, taken together specify the overall specific config. (That's how AutoCAD etc work.) 2 --> For a space of possibilities for 500 bits, we easily see that 2^500 = 3.27*10^150 possibilities, while at typical fast chem rxn rates, the 10^57 atoms of the sol system could only undertake about 10^87 or so states. The ratio of possible search to space of possibilities is about as a one straw sized blindly chosen sample to a cubical haystack comparably thick as our galaxy. This is the needle in haystack, vs sparse search problem. 3 --> Now, as the Abu 6500 c3 shows, when functionality depends on specific organised interaction of many correctly located, oriented, matching, coupled parts it sharply confines functionality to isolated islands in the config space. That is, we face the problem of deeply isolated islands of function as the needles in the haystack. (There are vastly more clumped but non-functional ways to arrange the parts [shake the reel parts up in a bag] oreven more ways to have them scattered about, than ways consistent with functionality.) 4 --> Whether a blind watchmaker chance plus necessity search is a finely dispersed dust in the config space, or it is a connected dynamic-stochastic random walk with drift [think, air molecules moving around within an air mass at random, but the body as a whole is drifting as part of a wind], or a combination of the two or the like, we are looking at sparse blind search in a space utterly dominated by non-functional configs. 5 --> This implies the challenge of a search for a golden search [S4GS] that puts one in an extraordinarily lucky state, on or just conveniently next to an island of function. Where as searches of a space of cardinality W cells are subsets, the set of searches is the power set of cardinality 2^W. And higher order searches are even more deeply exponential. 6 --> S4GS is exponentially harder than direct blind search. So, a simple reasonably random ( not too far off from a flat random sample) sample is a reasonable estimator of likelihood of success. Where the very name, needle in haystack, points out how unlikely such would be to succeed. Thus, the strawman problem. 7 --> Also, implicit in the notion that a sparse search gets out of the config space challenge, is the notion of a vast continent of closely connected functional states, that is easily accessible from plausible initial conditions. The case of the 6500 c3 reel and things like protein assembly in the cell or the complex integrative flow network of cellular metabolism should serve to show how this begs the question. 8 --> In reply, we say, show us this sort of config space topology. Where as just one case the freshly dead show us already just how close to functional, non functional states can be. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2014
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Me_think at # 11, #14, 18# I doubt that you think correctly. Either you do not understand what Wagner says or both you and Wagner are wrong. If in a 1 dimension search context the Target (or solution) Space (i.e. TS) is 1/10 of the Search Space (SS) then the chance of finding a solution randomly is 1/10 (unguided search Success Ratio SR = 1/10). [This is a Very Generous Ratio]. As we move to higher dimensional Search Contexts we maintain On Each Dimension A Constant Ratio of Target Space/Search Space of 1/10. The operator “**” means “power”. For example: “10 ** 2” means: “10 power 2” Legend: SR = Success Ratio 1 Dimension Search Context: SR = 1/10 2 Dimensions Search Context: SR = 1/10 * 1/10 = (1/10) ** 2 = 1/100 3 Dimensions Search Context: SR = 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 = (1/10) ** 3 = 1/1000 ………………………. 5000 Dimensions Search Context: SR = (1/10) ** 5000 = 0.00000000000 ……..001 where the number of 0-es between the decimal point and the final “1” is 5000-1 = 4999 zeroes = 1 / (10**500). In other words this means that for a 5000 dimensional search context the chances of success in a blind (unguided) search are 1 in 10 ** 5000 which practically means NIL, NADA, ZERO. Me_Think_You_Are_Wrong RegardsInVivoVeritas
November 14, 2014
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ppolish @ 19
Why haven’t fish come up with igloos?
Yeah I have been wondering too. If igloos are so critical, the ID agent would have endowed fish with cool looking igloos without waiting for poor evolution to do it's duty.Me_Think
November 14, 2014
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Why haven't fish come up with igloos? They've been around since even before the whole feet thing. FCOL.ppolish
November 14, 2014
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bornagain77 @ 15,
Darwinian debating tactic #19, ,,, when you have absolutely no observational evidence, use mathematical fantasy,,, also known as the ‘there’s a chance’ law of probability,,
As the hyperbolic dimensions increases, the search space decreases - isn't it true ? and if only one 10^ -100th space needs to be searched,obviously the probability of finding new genotype or new process is very close to 1. I don't see any fantasy here - do you ?Me_Think
November 14, 2014
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Right you are keiths. It's only a scratch . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_slicing Yes, you may still have your arm, you may still have your hand, you may still have your finger, it's just a scratch, after all.Mung
November 14, 2014
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Reading the authors interview it sounds like evolution can find an anti-freeze protein if you assume there are kazillions of anti-freeze proteins to be found. I guess it easier to believe there are kazillions of anti-freeze protein than to believe the fish were created to adapted to it's environment. If his theory is true I wonder why humans haven't found an anti-freeze protein.Smidlee
November 14, 2014
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Darwinian debating tactic #19, ,,, when you have absolutely no observational evidence, use mathematical fantasy,,, also known as the 'there's a chance' law of probability,, Dumb and Dumber 'There's a Chance' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA Darwinism Not Proved Absolutely Impossible Therefore Its True - Plantinga http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716/ Perhaps Wagner can grace Chaitin with his mathematical wisdom??? Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work.,, Consistent with the laws of conservation of information, natural selection can only work using the guidance of active information, which can be provided only by a designer. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 Chaitin is quoted at 10:00 minute mark of following video in regards to Darwinism lack of a mathematical proof - Dr. Marks also comments on the honesty of Chaitin in personally admitting that his long sought after mathematical proof for Darwinian evolution failed to deliver the goods. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No3LZmPcwyg&feature=player_detailpage#t=600bornagain77
November 14, 2014
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Smidlee @ 13
So it’s guided unguided evolution? It’s sound like magic without a magician , engineering without and engineer, desisn without a designer.
Wagner shows that to find a new phenotype in a genotypic network, a search space of only less than one 10^ -100th of 'the library' needs to searched.Refer to comment # 11 for more details or read Chapter Six of Wagner's bookMe_Think
November 14, 2014
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"Wagner’s book is bad for ID and good for unguided evolution. Whether it qualifies as “non-Darwinian” isn’t going to change that." It sounds a lot like Shapiro's Natural Genetic Engineering. So it's guided unguided evolution? It's sound like magic without a magician , engineering without and engineer, desisn without a designer.Smidlee
November 14, 2014
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Mung, What makes you singularly ineffective as an ID advocate is that you focus on minutiae while the ID battle is being lost elsewhere. Wagner's book is bad for ID and good for unguided evolution. Whether it qualifies as "non-Darwinian" isn't going to change that. Keep up the good work.keith s
November 14, 2014
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ppolish @ 6
Keith, Arrival of the Fittest is a cool book so far for me. Just finished chapter 3 where Wagner proposes a 5000 Dimension Universal Library. And I thought 10 Dimension String Theory was wild:)
You are confusing hyperbolic geometry dimension with dimensions of universe space. You don't realize how devastating the hyperbolic geometric dimension is to ID's view that search space is too large to search for new genotypes. I will explain: Imagine a solution circle (the circle within which solution exists) of 10 cm inside a 100 cm square search space. The area which needs to be searched for solution is pi x 10 ^2 = 314.15 The total Search area is 100 x 100 = 10000. The % area to be searched is (314.15/10000) x 100 = 3.14% In 3 dimensions,the search area will be 4/3 x pi x 10^3 Area to search is now cube (because of 3 dimensions) = 100^3. Thus the % of area to be searched falls to just 4188.79/100^3 = 0.41 % only. Hypervolume of sphere with dimension d and radius r is: (Pi^d/2 x r^d)/r(d/2+1) HyperVolume of Cube = r^d At 10 dimensions, the volume to search reduces to just: 0.000015608 % But in nature, the actual search area is incredibly small. As wagner points out in Chapter six,
In the number of dimensions where our circuit library exists—get ready for this—the sphere contains neither 0.1 percent, 0.01 percent, nor 0.001 percent. It contains less than one 10^ -100th of the library
Me_Think
November 14, 2014
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Sorry KF, you're going to have to read the book and then explain it to me. I can send you my copy when I'm done:) But author Wagner seems to stress his Universal Library is really really large.ppolish
November 14, 2014
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