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Chains of warrant and of causation in Origins Science

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As has come up as pivotal in recent discussions here at UD, we must recognise that logic and first principles underlie any serious discussion, including origins science, and in sciences  — especially those addressing origins — the issue of chains of cause will be pivotal.

The two are connected, as can be seen by first examining chains of warrant:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Now, Peter D. Klein, in the Oxford Handbook of Skepticism, highlights:

The epistemic regress problem is considered the most crucial in the entire theory of knowledge and it is a major concern for many contemporary epistemologists. However, only two of the three alternative solutions have been developed in any detail, foundationalism and coherentism. Infinitism was not seriously considered as a solution because of the finite-mind objection. [article: “Contemporary Responses to Agrippa’s Trilemma,” OUP 2008.]

That is, once one looks at the logical structure of warrant — it naturally chains, one is led to infinite regress, or circularity at some level, or else one has to terminate in some finitely remote set of first plausibles, defining what I have come to call a faith-point.  Notice, it is often perceived as a central problem, and thus as a problem rather than a framework that defines how worldviews have to be structured, leading to the situation that the only viable option is finitely remote first plausibles held in light of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy (covers all material facts), coherence (logical and dynamical) and explanatory power (neither simplistic nor an ever growing ad hoc patchwork).

In effect, we are humbled by our circumstances as contingent, finite, fallible, morally struggling creatures who are far too often stubbornly irrational and ill-willed. So, we can only hope to have a reasonable faith as a worldview sustained on comparative difficulties analysis, not a frame of utterly certain start-point premises.

Similarly, origins science is concerned with causal roots of our cosmos, our world, the world of life, and our own roots. Therefore, we face the reality of chains of cause as well, and thus we see that the implications of successive chaining confront us again. For instance, let us note how the Smithsonian Institution presented a tree of life model a few years past:

Darwin-ToL-Smithsonian400

The concept here is a branching tree of causal chains, starting from a root, origin of life.

(BTW, this instantly highlights that the attempt to lock away the OOL challenge from attempts to provide a naturalistic account of the world of life fail the test of logic. So, when design thinkers connect the two and insist that both have to be adequately addressed on credible, actually observed capable mechanisms that adequately account for origin of the required functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I], starting with copious quantities of coded DNA information, this is a matter of basic logic and prudent warrant for explanations. And the fact remains that the only actually observed capable causal source for FSCO/I is design, a point backed up by the reasoning that underlies the statistical reasoning that undergirds the second law of thermodynamics.)

In short, once we look at origins, we readily see that the logic involved means that causes also come in chains, leading to the simple topological issue, infinite regress vs circularity in the root vs finitely remote ultimate beginning.

Of these, a circular root involving origins is immediately problematic. For, patently, non-being — a true nothing — can have no causal power. So, proposed circular causation would involve action before existence, which is not credible.

Infinite regress in steps, implies the problem of descent from minus infinity to zero:

minus-infinity –> minus (infinity less one) –> minus (infinity less two) –> [and yes, I know this is absurd, that is precisely the point] . . .

– 2, – 1, 0 [origin of our world], +1, + 2, . . .

+ us here today [say at 0-point + 13.7 BY]  –> . . .

Though some may argue for it (as they find the alternative quite uncomfortable), it is not credible that anything can traverse the transfinite in successive distinct steps, so this, too is not a reasonable view.

If you differ, kindly give a reasonable and empirically, observationally warranted account: _______________

And  yes, I am applying Newton’s Vera Causa premise, that we should use only things observed to have relevant causal capacity to cause the like effect as traces we observe in explanations of things we cannot directly see for ourselves.

(Predictably, there will be none as no one has seen an infinite succession of distinct causal steps traversed.)

This all means that we need to take the cluster of observations that led to the conception of origin of our world through a big bang singularity seriously, e.g.:

The Big Bang timeline -- a world with a beginning
The Big Bang timeline — a world with a beginning

That is, on the best science we have available, per observations since the 1920’s, we face a finitely remote distinct origin of our cosmos. There are many multiverse speculative models, but such lack definitive observational warrant. Where, it is particularly to be recognised that a suggested — not actually observed — quantum foam bubbling up sub-cosmi such as ours per fluctuations is not a proper nothing, non-being:

Video (C Richard Dawkins vs Rowan Williams):

[youtube m9H2bxHIBfg]

Infographic based on clips:

nothing_3Where does all of this leave us?

We are looking at getting our logic straight in order to think in a logically, epistemologically and dynamically coherent fashion about origins issues, linked science and worldview implications.

Yes, this is about first principles of right reason.

Go amiss there, and all else thereafter will wander off into thickets of error.

The logic of chains of warrant and of causation (thus the triple alternatives) is patent and effectively undeniable on pain of absurdity.

This of course does not prevent the committed, determined objector from trying to divert attention or dismiss what he does not wish to face, or stop him from erecting and knocking over a suitably loaded strawman caricature. But it does highlight what such an objector will be forced to do: cling to absurdities, ill-founded speculations and divert attention by going on the rhetorical attack.

As is so sadly familiar from years of debates in and around UD.

What is the bottom-line?

I: Chains of warrant and those of cause are real and force us to face the three alternatives for roots: infinite regress, circularity, finitely remote start-point.

II: Of these, only the third is a serious option.

III: On warrant  this forces us to recognise that warrant for claimed knowledge inevitably embeds worldview foundational issues and sustaining of a reasonable faith on comparative difficulties analysis.

IV: On cause and origins, this points strongly to a finitely remote origin of our world, and to the need to reckon with causal adequacy undergirded by actual observed capability to cause relevant phenomena.

V: For the world of life, that means, we have to reckon with the only known, actually observed capable cause of FSCO/I, i.e. design — intelligently directed configuration. (Indeed, empirically, FSCO/I on a trillion member observational base, is a reliable sign of design, whether or not this sits well with currently favoured, institutionally dominant, evolutionary materialism based origins narratives.)

VI: For cosmological origin, we have clear signs of a finitely remote distinct origin of our observed cosmos, perhaps 13.7 BYA, and of fine-tuning and intricate configuration that supports C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life, which again puts design on the table as the causal explanation to beat.

In short, Intelligent Design is a logically, dynamically, scientifically and philosophically reasonable view.

Not what one would imagine, on the press it is often given.

But then, mere logic is usually not enough to decide public views on or policy regarding culturally important, ideologically loaded matters.

But, it may well be one of the warning signs that our business as usual path is unsound:

change_challFood for thought. END

Comments
HUH? Everybody in Almost Every Language Says “Huh”? HUH?! Dingemanse’s team analyzed recordings of people speaking ten different languages, including Spanish, Chinese and Icelandic, as well as indigenous languages from Ecuador, Australia and Ghana.,,, The utterance (HUH), they argue, isn’t a mere grunt of stupefaction but a remarkable linguistic invention. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/everybody-almost-every-language-says-huh-huh-180949822/?no-istbornagain77
September 9, 2015
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@bornagain77 Gould was on the right track with Noma, but he didn't really make explicit exactly what the difference between religion and science is. So then we can just arbitrarily call natural selection a religion, and the Quran science. The difference between science and religion is obviously the difference between fact and opinion, between objectivity and subjectivity. A fact is a model of something, a 1 to 1 copy to a different form. The actual moon and a book about the moon containing the facts about it in the form of words, pictures and mathematics. An opinion is an expression of emotion by free will about what the agency of a decision is. The painting is beautiful. The conclusion is chosen that there exists a love for the way the painting looks, which love chooses the word "beautiful" in expression. Those are the non-overlapping domains, the domain of the creator and the creation, the domain of opinion, and the domain of fact.mohammadnursyamsu
September 9, 2015
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'Axel: What sort of a rebuttal is that: Just the next layer of the onion. I’m thinking it means something like engaging in science brings tears to her eyes.' Very witty, esteemed Mung. I perceive you have lost none of your edgeAxel
September 9, 2015
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mohammadnursyamsu, the problem with NOMA...
Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) excerpt: the view advocated by Stephen Jay Gould that science and religion each represent different areas of inquiry,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria
... the problem with NOMA is that science is impossible without Theistic presuppositions. i.e. no matter how much you try to keep God and science separated, you still keep getting your chocolate science into my peanut butter religion. :)
Hey You Got Peanut Butter in My Chocolate High Quality VHS rip 1981 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7oD_oX-Gio
A few notes to that effect:
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 Greg Bahnsen debate available at the bottom of the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://justinholcomb.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist/
Exactly how is logic and reasoning to be grounded in a worldview that insists everything arose without any rhyme or reason? To presuppose that the universe can be understood through logic and reason is to presuppose that there is logic and reasoning behind the universe to be understood in the first place. The atheistic/materialistic worldview is incoherent as to providing a rational foundation for practicing science in that it presupposes no logic or reason behind the universe.
The Universal Determinism Dichotomy (UDD) - David L. Abel - 2015 Excerpt: In recent years, physicalistic philosophy has come under increasing scrutiny, even from within the scientific community.(1-8,14-43) Incorporation of metaphysical materialism into the very definition of science has been called into question, especially since the scientific method itself is non-physical. Other problems with philosophic physicalism include: 1) Physicality seems to have had a beginning in time, along with time itself. This raises questions of what caused the effect of physicality, including the time dimension. 2) The laws of physics themselves are mathematical (abstract, conceptual and formal rather than physical). 3) Life is formally organized within even the simplest cell, not just self-ordered as we see in Prigogine’s “dissipative structures” of chaos theory. 4) All known life is cybernetic. Subcellular processes are all meticulously programmed and processed by very sophisticated mechanisms, never observed to arise from Chance and/or Necessity. 5) Representationalism, a purely formal phenomenon, is employed within living cells. Various Material Symbol Systems are used to communicate messages, program complex computations, and to regulate homeostasis. Prescription and its Processing are products of Decision Theory, not Stochastic (random) Theory. Stochastic Theory is merely descriptive. Only Decision Theory is known to be able to prescribe sophisticated function, and process it. https://www.academia.edu/12267097/The_Universal_Determinism_Dichotomy_UDD_
bornagain77
September 9, 2015
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I think we could all do well with not discussing about God the designer, and simply describe exhaustively, mathematically, how people design things. Satan can also design things. There are issues being mixed about how design works, how origins works, and belief in God. A creationist should have some skill to describe how creation works in general, people creating as well as God creating.mohammadnursyamsu
September 9, 2015
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kf succinctly states:
The nature and power of logic lies at the core of the capability of mind. Mathematics is probably the — or at least a — shining example of that power. Which, of course is not a science in the sense that sciences are about empirical investigations, but is the logical study of structure and quantity, i.e. utterly conceptual and abstract. And, it is at the heart of the practice of the sciences, especially the physical ones.,,, Indeed, in Mathematics, logic is so powerful that it has already, per Godel, shown us the limits of axiomatisable systems. Humbling us.,,, The issue of infinity has to be faced first, crawl before run.
In support of kf's beautifully stated premise, it is interesting to note that the contention that the Mind Of God (Logos) must lie directly behind mathematics, (and indeed of physicality itself), and that our minds are made in God's image, is most dramatically illustrated by the math, and experiments, of present day Quantum Mechanics.
"quantum theory entails an irreducible subjective element in its conceptual basis. In contrast, the theory of relativity when fully exploited, is based on a totally objective view." Sachs - On The Comparison Of Quantum and Relativity Theories - 1986 Does Quantum Physics Make it Easier to Believe in God? Stephen M. Barr - July 10, 2012 Excerpt: The master equation that governs how wavefunctions change with time (the “Schrödinger equation”) does not yield probabilities that suddenly jump to 0 or 100%, but rather ones that vary smoothly and that generally remain greater than 0 and less than 100%. Radioactive nuclei are a good example. The Schrödinger equation says that the “survival probability” of a nucleus (i.e. the probability of its not having decayed) starts off at 100%, and then falls continuously, reaching 50% after one half-life, 25% after two half-lives, and so on --- but never reaching zero. In other words, the Schrödinger equation only gives probabilities of decaying, never an actual decay! (If there were an actual decay, the survival probability should jump to 0 at that point.) To recap: (a) Probabilities in quantum mechanics must be the probabilities of definite events. (b) When definite events happen, some probabilities should jump to 0 or 100%. However, (c) the mathematics that describes all physical processes (the Schrödinger equation) does not describe such jumps. One begins to see how one might reach the conclusion that not everything that happens is a physical process describable by the equations of physics. So how do minds enter the picture? The traditional understanding is that the “definite events” whose probabilities one calculates in quantum mechanics are the outcomes of “measurements” or “observations” (the words are used interchangeably). If someone (traditionally called “the observer”) checks to see if, say, a nucleus has decayed (perhaps using a Geiger counter), he or she must get a definite answer: yes or no. Obviously, at that point the probability of the nucleus having decayed (or survived) should jump to 0 or 100%, because the observer then knows the result with certainty. This is just common sense. The probabilities assigned to events refer to someone’s state of knowledge: before I know the outcome of Jane’s exam I can only say that she has a 70% chance of passing; whereas after I know I must say either 0 or 100%. Thus, the traditional view is that the probabilities in quantum mechanics --- and hence the “wavefunction” that encodes them --- refer to the state of knowledge of some “observer”. (In the words of the famous physicist Sir James Jeans, wavefunctions are “knowledge waves.”) An observer’s knowledge --- and hence the wavefunction that encodes it --- makes a discontinuous jump when he/she comes to know the outcome of a measurement (the famous “quantum jump”, traditionally called the “collapse of the wave function”). But the Schrödinger equations that describe any physical process do not give such jumps! So something must be involved when knowledge changes besides physical processes. An obvious question is why one needs to talk about knowledge and minds at all. Couldn’t an inanimate physical device (say, a Geiger counter) carry out a “measurement” (minus the 'observer' in quantum mechanics)? That would run into the very problem pointed out by von Neumann: If the “observer” were just a purely physical entity, such as a Geiger counter, one could in principle write down a bigger wavefunction that described not only the thing being measured but also the observer. And, when calculated with the Schrödinger equation, that bigger wave function would not jump! Again: as long as only purely physical entities are involved, they are governed by an equation that says that the probabilities don’t jump. That’s why, when Peierls was asked whether a machine could be an “observer,” he said no, explaining that “the quantum mechanical description is in terms of knowledge, and knowledge requires somebody who knows.” Not a purely physical thing, but a mind. https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/does-quantum-physics-make-it-easier-believe-god The Measurement Problem in quantum mechanics – (Inspiring Philosophy) – 2014 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB7d5V71vUE Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms - Mind = blown. - FIONA MACDONALD - 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It - June 3, 2015 Excerpt: The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,, “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said. Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer. http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms-that-reality-doesnt-exist-if-you-are-not-looking-at-it.html “I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications. Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system - Zeilinger 2011 Excerpt: Page 491: "This represents a violation of (Leggett's) inequality (3) by more than 120 standard deviations, demonstrating that no joint probability distribution is capable of describing our results." The violation also excludes any non-contextual hidden-variable model. The result does, however, agree well with quantum mechanical predictions, as we will show now.,,, https://vcq.quantum.at/fileadmin/Publications/Experimental%20non-classicality%20of%20an%20indivisible.pdf
Interestingly, Quantum waveform collapse was anticipated by Aristotle and Aquinas:
Stephen Hawking: "Philosophy Is Dead" - Michael Egnor - August 3, 2015 Excerpt: The metaphysics of Aristotle and Aquinas is far and away the most successful framework on which to understand modern science, especially quantum mechanics. Heisenberg knew this (Link on site). Aristotle 2,300 years ago described the basics of collapse of the quantum waveform (reduction of potency to act),,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/stephen_hawking_3098261.html
More interesting still, infinite regress was addressed in the logic of Aristotle's & Aquinas's 'unmoved mover' argument that had anticipated Quantum Waveform collapse.
Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As Aquinas’ First Way 1) Change in nature is elevation of potency to act. 2) Potency cannot actualize itself, because it does not exist actually. 3) Potency must be actualized by another, which is itself in act. 4) Essentially ordered series of causes (elevations of potency to act) exist in nature. 5) An essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act cannot be in infinite regress, because the series must be actualized by something that is itself in act without the need for elevation from potency. 6) The ground of an essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act must be pure act with respect to the casual series. 7) This Pure Act– Prime Mover– is what we call God. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/08/aquinas-first-way.html
Or to put it much more simply:
"The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way
bornagain77
September 9, 2015
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F/N: Notice this prediction on infinite chains of cause from the OP:
Though some may argue for it (as they find the alternative quite uncomfortable), it is not credible that anything can traverse the transfinite in successive distinct steps, so this, too is not a reasonable view. If you differ, kindly give a reasonable and empirically, observationally warranted account: _______________ And yes, I am applying Newton’s Vera Causa premise, that we should use only things observed to have relevant causal capacity to cause the like effect as traces we observe in explanations of things we cannot directly see for ourselves. (Predictably, there will be none as no one has seen an infinite succession of distinct causal steps traversed.)
No prize for guessing that if a handy counter example were to hand, it would have been triumphantly trumpeted. Instead, we see hints and hopes that one is there, joined to hoped for analogies. Of course a Mandelbrot zoom or the like is a very finite computational exercise. It explores a potential infinite but cannot actually plumb it. And, the set of non-solutions of different degrees to the function -- how those pretty colour patterns are generated -- is of course a case of a transfinite defined in principle and given all at once. But to try to lay it out step by step in a computational mechanical (thus causal) process immediately brings us up against the implications of finitude. But of course, such also shows us how right there in elementary school where we were playing with numbers, we were playing right next door to infinities. Likewise, when we say take up the set of 3.27*19^150 possibilities for 500-bit strings, that is strictly finite. We can then chain such strings to compose messages but as the chains are potentially unlimited the number of abstractly possible messages is transfinite. But then our finitude brings us up short, we cannot plumb that. Indeed, just to get to a level-2 string, 1,000 bits we already are at 1.07*10^301 possibilities. The entire 10^80 atoms of the observable cosmos, working at fast chem rxn rates, say 10^13 - 15/s for 10^17s, would not be able to explore as much as 1 in 10^190 of the set. In short, the project of trying to get to meaningful configs by blind search faces an overwhelming haystack such that there is no plausibility for that much serendipity. That is a key part of what leads to the realisation that intelligently directed configuration or contrivance is utterly qualitatively different from blind mechanisms and chance. Underscoring the vast gap between abstract logical possibility and reasonable plausibility relevant to inference to best explanation. Hence the ideological lockout by way of imposing an ideologically tainted rule, methodological naturalism, on origins science. Which in this light becomes little more than censoring out the vera causa challenge in the end largely because the proposed materialist causal dynamics cannot plausibly meet the test. (And the all too common tendency to polarisingly talk of natural vs supernatural when the real contrast since Plato in The Laws Bk X has been natural vs ART-ificial, is diagnostic.) But again, that is a little ahead of ourselves. The issue of infinity has to be faced first, crawl before run. KFkairosfocus
September 9, 2015
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SB & Aleta: The nature and power of logic lies at the core of the capability of mind. Mathematics is probably the -- or at least a -- shining example of that power. Which, of course is not a science in the sense that sciences are about empirical investigations, but is the logical study of structure and quantity, i.e. utterly conceptual and abstract. And, it is at the heart of the practice of the sciences, especially the physical ones. Which, is something to be reckoned with. And, it is just perhaps a hint at (or a shadow of) the nature of reality's roots: utterly logical, utterly rational mind. Reason Himself. But then, that is the point that is in part acknowledged to be motivating resistance, isn't it: how dare you even think that logic could point beyond physicality. To which, my first reply is, it shows every sign of being inherently mental from the outset. Which is not to be confused with the computational. Logic rises well above garbage in, garbage out and computability; indeed it shows the humbling limits of the computable or algorithmic. Indeed, in Mathematics, logic is so powerful that it has already, per Godel, shown us the limits of axiomatisable systems. Humbling us. But secondly, I spoke to something quite simple. Logic allows us to have indirect knowledge or understanding, by drawing out implications on the deductive side. On the inductive and/or abductive side, it shows us that we are surrendering utter certainty, but allows us to add to what we can reliably know. Including on remote reaches of space and/or time that we have no hope of visiting. Which is directly relevant to origins studies. And of course in such studies Newton's vera causa principle curbs unbridled speculation, by requiring that we need to restrict the explanatory causal factors we apply to those actually shown to be capable of causing effects materially similar to the traces from the remote past or reaches of space we examine. Something that is quite relevant to for instance the origin of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information (FSCO/I) in the world of life. Logic is powerful, relentless and often surprising. And so, we need to start with the first principles of right reason, here including the topology of chained warrant and the linked topology of chained cause (and that of explanatory investigations of cause). Which then presents us with one of those features of such explorations: a simple, almost trivially demonstrable result has shocking power. Here, the Agrippa Trilemma, and the plausibility of the finite nature of both our structures of warrant and -- much more profoundly -- the causal chain behind our world. (And yes, we are looking at a comparative difficulties exercise; especially, at the significance of logical and dynamical coherence.) KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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The Formalism > Physicality (F > P) Principle - * David L. Abel - 2011 ABSTRACT: The F > P Principle states that “Formalism not only describes, but preceded, prescribed, organized, and continues to govern and predict Physicality.” The F > P Principle is an axiom that defines the ontological primacy of formalism in a presumed objective reality that transcends both human epistemology, our sensation of physicality, and physicality itself. The F > P Principle works hand in hand with the Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness, which states that physicochemical interactions are inadequate to explain the mathematical and formal nature of physical law relationships. Physicodynamics cannot generate formal processes and procedures leading to nontrivial function. Chance, necessity and mere constraints cannot steer, program or optimize algorithmic/computational success to provide desired nontrivial utility. As a major corollary, physicodynamics cannot explain or generate life. Life is invariably cybernetic. The F > P Principle denies the notion of unity of Prescriptive Information (PI) with mass/energy. The F > P Principle distinguishes instantiation of formal choices into physicality from physicality itself. The arbitrary setting of configurable switches and the selection of symbols in any Material Symbol System (MSS) is physicodynamically indeterminate—decoupled from physicochemical determinism. https://www.academia.edu/12952944/The_F_P_Principle_The_Formalism_Physicality_Principle_ "Nonphysical formalism not only describes, but preceded physicality and the Big Bang Formalism prescribed, organized and continues to govern physicodynamics." http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/ag Is Life Unique? David L. Abel - January 2012 Concluding Statement: The scientific method itself cannot be reduced to mass and energy. Neither can language, translation, coding and decoding, mathematics, logic theory, programming, symbol systems, the integration of circuits, computation, categorizations, results tabulation, the drawing and discussion of conclusions. The prevailing Kuhnian paradigm rut of philosophic physicalism is obstructing scientific progress, biology in particular. There is more to life than chemistry. All known life is cybernetic. Control is choice-contingent and formal, not physicodynamic. http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/
bornagain77
September 8, 2015
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Mung writes,
Please explain what you mean by “a metaphysical world beyond our universe.”
We live in universe that we can experience empirically - a physical world. We wonder where our universe came from, and why it has the properties it does - is there anything before/beyond/behind the physical world that has caused it, upholds it, or somehow is embedded in it (or rather, that it is embedded in)? Those are metaphysical questions about a metaphysical world beyond our universe. That's what I mean.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Here's another metaphor: let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm not a theist. Others here are. I don't believe our knowledge can reach outside of this universe, and I believe logic is a tool that we use inside this universe to investigate the world we can experience. I believe it is true to say that KF, StephenB, Box and others, as theists, believe they do have access to knowledge outside the universe, through God, both, I imagine, through faith and the belief that their reason is founded on logic with arises from the mind of God. (I'm not sure they'd phrase it quite like that.)Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Aleta: I’ve made a number of points about why I believe that logic has limitations if we try to apply it the possibility of a metaphysical world beyond our universe. Please explain what you mean by "a metaphysical world beyond our universe." Thank youMung
September 8, 2015
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Aleta: Are my comments biased and polarizing, and kf’s are not? That’s a factual question. I'm assuming you're an intelligent person and that you are capable of looking up the tu quoque fallacy and reading up on it and understanding how it is applicable to what you wrote. I'm going to go yet further and assume that you also understand what it means to say "that's a factual question." And now we've come full circle back to the subject of the OP.Mung
September 8, 2015
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We disagree about that, Stephen. I've made a number of points about why I believe that logic has limitations if we try to apply it the possibility of a metaphysical world beyond our universe. You disagree, but our disagreements follow from different foundational beliefs that, in my view, can't be resolved.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Kairosfocus
Logic is so relentless that we can apply it to places where we cannot even in principle investigate
Aleta
I disagree that logic is so “relentless” that we can apply it to places where we cannot even in principle investigate.
If you disagree, then you are confessing that you know nothing about logic.StephenB
September 8, 2015
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Box says,
Sometimes logic is all we got. Therefor those who demand understanding — those who seek the truth — are extremely reluctant to part with logic. So you must choose: do you demand understanding or not? Are you willing to do your utmost to find truth and ponder about ultimate questions?
It is not relevant to "demand understanding" if in fact we don't have the tools to achieve it - that is, among other things, what leads to making up answers that really aren't supportable. I like pondering ultimate questions, but my main point is that ultimately the answers to the ultimate questions are in fact out of our reach. I'm not saying we should part with logic, but I am saying that those things to which it is applicable are within this universe - we can't use pure logic without any validating experience to tell us what is outside of this world.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Aleta: I disagree that logic is so “relentless” that we can apply it to places where we cannot even in principle investigate.
Sometimes logic is all we got. Therefor those who demand understanding — those who seek the truth — are extremely reluctant to part with logic. It boils down to a choice: do you demand understanding or not? Are you willing to do your utmost to find truth and ponder about ultimate questions? It's up to you and it's an important decision.Box
September 8, 2015
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Are my comments biased and polarizing, and kf's are not? That's a factual question.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Aleta: I am not a theist. You are a theist. I don’t see how my remarks are any more biased and polarizing than yours? Also known as the tu quoque fallacy. A fallacy.Mung
September 8, 2015
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Well thanks for popping by, kf, and I hope an onlooker or two is interested in what I have to say. You say,
Logic is relentless and can go in thought where we cannot go in direct experience.
Here's the point you haven't addressed: We do not know if the logic we use, and powerfully so, inside this physical world actually applies outside this universe, in respect to metaphysics. I disagree that logic is so "relentless" that we can apply it to places where we cannot even in principle investigate.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Axel: What sort of a rebuttal is that: Just the next layer of the onion. I'm thinking it means something like engaging in science brings tears to her eyes.Mung
September 8, 2015
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Aleta, remember, I am just popping by and giving preliminaries to basically help onlookers. Kindly re-read the OP -- you are now agreeing with one of my core points on regress of warrant, that we are finite and must stop and yet try to cast it against a distinct point on causal chains. Logic is relentless and can go in thought where we cannot go in direct experience. A power but a danger. Causal chains too face the descent from minus infinity to zero problem, and circular cause in context of origin is a non starter. Finitely remote causal root is what we face, and that is enormously challenging. Especially as given the issue that non-being can have no causal power, were there ever utter nothing, that would forever obtain. We are looking at finitely remote (in the sense of causal "generations") necessary being root of reality . . and such is eternal in character; the serious discussion is of what nature. But before we run, we must creep by facing cold hard logic for what it is. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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kf writes,
Aleta, zooming in on seahorse valley in the Mandelbrot set is a case of infinite potential regress but in fact we cannot ever actually achieve the infinite by successive zooming and calculation to feed those pretty videos.
Interesting, kf - your point actually supports my argument. Due to human limitations (both in terms of technology and time) we can't "achieve the infinite" in respect to zooming in on a fractal, but the infinite depth is there!Aleta
September 8, 2015
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You are not responding to my main point: even if there is a chain of causes that somehow ends in an uncaused cause, we can't follow that chain beyond the limits of our universe-bound understanding. For us, we are always someplace along the chain, possibly finding the next link and then always investigating the link after that, but once that chain exits the universe, so to speak, we're done. There are limits to how far down the chain our understanding can go.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Zoom -- the valley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAJE35wX1nQkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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Aleta, zooming in on seahorse valley in the Mandelbrot set is a case of infinite potential regress but in fact we cannot ever actually achieve the infinite by successive zooming and calculation to feed those pretty videos -- indeed the images are based on truncations etc. The same logic emerges again, inexorably. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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Aleta, if it were not so sad it would be amusing. I have given a strictly logical analysis of chains of warrant and cause. Logic has a mathematics-like objective property, and in fact is at the heart of Mathematics. If my logic is wrong, where: warrant chains, check. Likewise you have grand and great grand parents check; causes chain too. Follow the chain to each link in succession. Does it go on forever? Can it, and if so can warrant get started [the minus infinity to zero problem]? Can it go in a circle? Or must it in fact end not least as we are finite and fallible, thus arriving at first plausibles to be addressed through comparative difficulties. That is what is on the table. Its importance is evident in its own right and precisely because something that patent is being stoutly resisted and in large part by trying to play the polarisation card. That is a red flag warning on where business as usual is headed, cf the dynamics on that in the last infographic in the OP. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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I realize the problem with the onion metaphor. It's a common metaphor for there being deeper and deeper levels, but like most metaphors, it's inappropriate in some ways. I think I've tried to make my points non-metaphorically in the posts above also. And there is a possibility that zooming in on a fractal is a better metaphor for how things might actually be.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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KF's P.S., "PS: A, pardon but your anti-theistic, anti-Christian bias is showing and polarising your remarls." I am not a theist. You are a theist. I don't see how my remarks are any more biased and polarizing than yours? We are discussing an issue upon which we disagree, so of course we are making remarks which counter those of the other person.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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PPS: Is your onion of infinite radius with infinitely many layers, or does it have a hollow core so you end up going in circles at some level, or is there a finitely remote centre from which the whole came?kairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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