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Chains of warrant and of causation in Origins Science

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As has come up as pivotal in recent discussions here at UD, we must recognise that logic and first principles underlie any serious discussion, including origins science, and in sciences  — especially those addressing origins — the issue of chains of cause will be pivotal.

The two are connected, as can be seen by first examining chains of warrant:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Now, Peter D. Klein, in the Oxford Handbook of Skepticism, highlights:

The epistemic regress problem is considered the most crucial in the entire theory of knowledge and it is a major concern for many contemporary epistemologists. However, only two of the three alternative solutions have been developed in any detail, foundationalism and coherentism. Infinitism was not seriously considered as a solution because of the finite-mind objection. [article: “Contemporary Responses to Agrippa’s Trilemma,” OUP 2008.]

That is, once one looks at the logical structure of warrant — it naturally chains, one is led to infinite regress, or circularity at some level, or else one has to terminate in some finitely remote set of first plausibles, defining what I have come to call a faith-point.  Notice, it is often perceived as a central problem, and thus as a problem rather than a framework that defines how worldviews have to be structured, leading to the situation that the only viable option is finitely remote first plausibles held in light of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy (covers all material facts), coherence (logical and dynamical) and explanatory power (neither simplistic nor an ever growing ad hoc patchwork).

In effect, we are humbled by our circumstances as contingent, finite, fallible, morally struggling creatures who are far too often stubbornly irrational and ill-willed. So, we can only hope to have a reasonable faith as a worldview sustained on comparative difficulties analysis, not a frame of utterly certain start-point premises.

Similarly, origins science is concerned with causal roots of our cosmos, our world, the world of life, and our own roots. Therefore, we face the reality of chains of cause as well, and thus we see that the implications of successive chaining confront us again. For instance, let us note how the Smithsonian Institution presented a tree of life model a few years past:

Darwin-ToL-Smithsonian400

The concept here is a branching tree of causal chains, starting from a root, origin of life.

(BTW, this instantly highlights that the attempt to lock away the OOL challenge from attempts to provide a naturalistic account of the world of life fail the test of logic. So, when design thinkers connect the two and insist that both have to be adequately addressed on credible, actually observed capable mechanisms that adequately account for origin of the required functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I], starting with copious quantities of coded DNA information, this is a matter of basic logic and prudent warrant for explanations. And the fact remains that the only actually observed capable causal source for FSCO/I is design, a point backed up by the reasoning that underlies the statistical reasoning that undergirds the second law of thermodynamics.)

In short, once we look at origins, we readily see that the logic involved means that causes also come in chains, leading to the simple topological issue, infinite regress vs circularity in the root vs finitely remote ultimate beginning.

Of these, a circular root involving origins is immediately problematic. For, patently, non-being — a true nothing — can have no causal power. So, proposed circular causation would involve action before existence, which is not credible.

Infinite regress in steps, implies the problem of descent from minus infinity to zero:

minus-infinity –> minus (infinity less one) –> minus (infinity less two) –> [and yes, I know this is absurd, that is precisely the point] . . .

– 2, – 1, 0 [origin of our world], +1, + 2, . . .

+ us here today [say at 0-point + 13.7 BY]  –> . . .

Though some may argue for it (as they find the alternative quite uncomfortable), it is not credible that anything can traverse the transfinite in successive distinct steps, so this, too is not a reasonable view.

If you differ, kindly give a reasonable and empirically, observationally warranted account: _______________

And  yes, I am applying Newton’s Vera Causa premise, that we should use only things observed to have relevant causal capacity to cause the like effect as traces we observe in explanations of things we cannot directly see for ourselves.

(Predictably, there will be none as no one has seen an infinite succession of distinct causal steps traversed.)

This all means that we need to take the cluster of observations that led to the conception of origin of our world through a big bang singularity seriously, e.g.:

The Big Bang timeline -- a world with a beginning
The Big Bang timeline — a world with a beginning

That is, on the best science we have available, per observations since the 1920’s, we face a finitely remote distinct origin of our cosmos. There are many multiverse speculative models, but such lack definitive observational warrant. Where, it is particularly to be recognised that a suggested — not actually observed — quantum foam bubbling up sub-cosmi such as ours per fluctuations is not a proper nothing, non-being:

Video (C Richard Dawkins vs Rowan Williams):

[youtube m9H2bxHIBfg]

Infographic based on clips:

nothing_3Where does all of this leave us?

We are looking at getting our logic straight in order to think in a logically, epistemologically and dynamically coherent fashion about origins issues, linked science and worldview implications.

Yes, this is about first principles of right reason.

Go amiss there, and all else thereafter will wander off into thickets of error.

The logic of chains of warrant and of causation (thus the triple alternatives) is patent and effectively undeniable on pain of absurdity.

This of course does not prevent the committed, determined objector from trying to divert attention or dismiss what he does not wish to face, or stop him from erecting and knocking over a suitably loaded strawman caricature. But it does highlight what such an objector will be forced to do: cling to absurdities, ill-founded speculations and divert attention by going on the rhetorical attack.

As is so sadly familiar from years of debates in and around UD.

What is the bottom-line?

I: Chains of warrant and those of cause are real and force us to face the three alternatives for roots: infinite regress, circularity, finitely remote start-point.

II: Of these, only the third is a serious option.

III: On warrant  this forces us to recognise that warrant for claimed knowledge inevitably embeds worldview foundational issues and sustaining of a reasonable faith on comparative difficulties analysis.

IV: On cause and origins, this points strongly to a finitely remote origin of our world, and to the need to reckon with causal adequacy undergirded by actual observed capability to cause relevant phenomena.

V: For the world of life, that means, we have to reckon with the only known, actually observed capable cause of FSCO/I, i.e. design — intelligently directed configuration. (Indeed, empirically, FSCO/I on a trillion member observational base, is a reliable sign of design, whether or not this sits well with currently favoured, institutionally dominant, evolutionary materialism based origins narratives.)

VI: For cosmological origin, we have clear signs of a finitely remote distinct origin of our observed cosmos, perhaps 13.7 BYA, and of fine-tuning and intricate configuration that supports C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life, which again puts design on the table as the causal explanation to beat.

In short, Intelligent Design is a logically, dynamically, scientifically and philosophically reasonable view.

Not what one would imagine, on the press it is often given.

But then, mere logic is usually not enough to decide public views on or policy regarding culturally important, ideologically loaded matters.

But, it may well be one of the warning signs that our business as usual path is unsound:

change_challFood for thought. END

Comments
kf writes,
... what does that chaining topology imply about root causes of our species, of the world of life, of our solar system, of our cosmos? How does this relate to: turtles all the way down in infinite regress, turtles in a circle, or that the last turtle needs somewhere to stand. Which last is a root cause.
We have found that as we investigate this world we find deeper and deeper causal explanations for why things are as they are in respect to more fundamental "things" (which at this point are not really things in the macroscopic sense.) However, that is about this world - this cosmos - not what is/may be beyond the cosmos. That is where we run into the limits of our understanding. Why is the universe such that it appears now, at its most basic level, to consist of probabilistic interactions between "things" which do not fit into our classical pictures of space, time, matter and energy? We don't know. And if we discover some additional causal explanation about why the world is like that, we will just have moved "down one turtle" - will still have the question, "well, why is the world like that? Maybe there is a root cause that is beyond our understanding. Maybe the universe just is - its unified existence is the root cause. Or maybe, as I said before, in respect to what is beyond this world the idea of cause breaks down and our linear "chain of causality" ideas based on our experience of his world don't apply any more. Or maybe the nature of reality is fractal, and there is always a deeper level. Or maybe there is a coherent whole in which all the related parts are causes for all the other parts, but no outside beginning cause is necessary. But these are all metaphysical speculations, beyond our ability to investigate. I offer them only to illustrate my point that we can only know what is inside our world, not what is outside our world. The topic here is epistemology. My position is that we are limited as to what we can know. Even if one wants to believe that causal explanations must begin with some uncaused cause (which is an unjustified conclusion if one wants to extrapolate to beyond our universe), then the proper conclusion is that we can only travel a ways down the chain of explanations. We could never reach the end of the chain (or even know if we had reached the end of the chain) because we don't have the epistemological power to go beyond the universe we live in and are a part of.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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PS: A, pardon but your anti-theistic, anti-Christian bias is showing and polarising your remarls. I am making a strictly logical argument on the general topology of worldviews as logical/epistemological networks of chained warrant in a way that is analogous to geometry going back to Euclid. Likewise on the closely similar issue of causal chains. That that sort of cold logic excites resistance, should give you and others pause.kairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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Sean and Aleta 'As Aleta wrote (@16), the mysteries of QM are just the next layer of the onion.' What sort of a rebuttal is that: Just the next layer of the onion. I'm sure culinary metaphors have their place in literature, maybe even in the sphere of science, but that is simply a non-answer. You are perfectly content with mysteries just so long as they do not purport to lead to the ultimate mystery (of a god that creates and sustains everything, the daddy of all mysteries. 'God is an unscientific idea because gods and claims about gods cannot be verified or falsified. If you can provide a verifiable (or falsifiable) theory based on your religious beliefs, by all means do share.' Absolute piffle: http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=J21MECNU Further, you contend: 'QM doesn’t change this. The mysteries of QM are a deeper layer of the onion – they don’t fit the classical worldview of time, space, causation, and Aristotelian logic, but that doesn’t mean they have entered into the “spiritual realm.” They have just expanded our knowledge (and therefore added the next layer of questions) about how the material world works.' Again, absolute piffle. QM has proved that, as Max Planck put it, there is no matter as such: 'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.' With the 'naive realist' mindset you share, 80 years after QM surfaced, you both find yourselves, like everyone else, swimming in a sea of mystery, but in your case, such that there is no possible way QM, could, in very principle, have been discovered by either of you, or, indeed, any other atheist/materialist. You start off from your basic atheist hypothesis, which you are nevertheless certain about, in the teeth of vast mountain ranges of evidence, and bizarrely argue from that entirely specious, because simply false assumption. The current inner-most layer of the onion will always present the question, “but why is it like that?” Answering that question with “God” is always a non-answer. Why is it a non-answer? Can you tell us on what grounds God cannot be the answer? Given that your contention of there being no evidence for his existence is utterly fantasmagorical. We are surrounded by evidence of a creator from the moment we open or eyes in the morning. Given the design of a single E-Coli cell, it would take an omniscient intelligence to design the world around us. Nor have naive realists who fancy they are at the leading edge of science found the first clue as to the origin of life.Axel
September 8, 2015
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Aleta, what is a cause, and how is it connected to the origin, continued existence and cessation of a contingent being? Why do causes come in chains, and what does that chaining topology imply about root causes of our species, of the world of life, of our solar system, of our cosmos? How does this relate to: turtles all the way down in infinite regress, turtles in a circle, or that the last turtle needs somewhere to stand. Which last is a root cause. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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kf writes,
Aleta, you are simply asserting. Talking points make no cases, kindly substantiate; and do so on the actual case made e.g. sets of first plausibles are much broader than self-evident truths. When you do so, explain why the issue on the table is a or even the central question in epistemology. KF
I'm not sure how my assertions are any different than yours. I'm claiming there is a fourth possibility in our chart - that there will always be a "we don't know" at the start of the chain. The issue on the table is a central question of epistemology. Your solution of finitely remote first plausibles is one of the philosophical solutions to the problem. There are others solutions in the field of philosophy. Even a quick look at the Wikipedia article on epistemology shows that there are a variety of positions on this issue.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Thanks for bring up the turtle metaphor, Barry - it's a fun one to consider. We don't/can't know if it's turtles all the way down, or if there is some fundamental turtle that just is - all we can do is investigate the next turtle. (I know we're changing metaphors here, from onions to turtles, but it's the same idea.) It may very well be that at some point the whole idea of "chains of causation" breaks down, so that the whole idea of a "next turtle" isn't relevant. Or, it could be that levels of causation are fractal, so that, like zooming in on Mandlebrot's set, it really is turtles all the way down. This is all beyond the ability of humans to know. I repeat my point. Making up explanations about "God" or the "spiritual realm" or whatever kf is calling it these days (finitely remote first plausibles) is an unwarranted leap over the limits of our understanding. It doesn't make any difference if our limited tools for understanding can't comprehend anything but the three possibilities in kf's chart in the OP, the most plausible first plausible is that at some point we don't/can't know. No matter how much investigation of this world we do, our views, and our tools for knowing, are embedded in our being in this world, and we don't have a window into any other world.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Preparatory: Definition of Science in the Webster's 1913 Dictionary, giving us a way to rethink in light of what was so clear only a century past: ______________ >>Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828) ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for science: Displaying 2 result(s) from the 1913 edition: Science (Page: 1287) Sci"ence (?), n. [F., fr. L. scientia, fr. sciens, -entis, p.pr. of scire to know. Cf. Conscience, Conscious, Nice.] 1. Knowledge; knowledge of principles and causes; ascertained truth of facts. . . . 2. Accumulated and established knowledge, which has been systematized and formulated with reference to the discovery of general truths or the operation of general laws; knowledge classified and made available in work, life, or the search for truth; comprehensive, profound, or philosophical knowledge . . . 3. Especially, such knowledge when it relates to the physical world and its phenomena, the nature, constitution, and forces of matter, the qualities and function of living tissues, etc.; -- called also natural science, and physical science . . . 4. Any branch or departament of systematized knowledge considered as a distinct field of investigation or object of study; as, the science of astronomy, of chemistry, or of mind. The ancients reckoned seven sciences, namely, grammar, rhetoric, logic, arithmetic, music, geometry, and astronomy; -- the first three being included in the Trivium, the remaining four in the Quadrivium . . . 5. Art, skill, or expertness, regarded as the result of knowledge of laws and principles . . . Science is applied or pure. Applied science is a knowledge of facts, events, or phenomena, as explained, accounted for, or produced, by means of powers, causes, or laws. Pure science is the knowledge of these powers, causes, or laws, considered apart, or as pure from all applications. Both these terms have a similar and special signification when applied to the science of quantity; as, the applied and pure mathematics. Exact science is knowledge so systematized that prediction and verification, by measurement, experiment, observation, etc., are possible. The mathematical and physical sciences are called the exact sciences. Comparative sciences, Inductive sciences. See under Comparative, and Inductive. Syn. -- Literature; art; knowledge. -- Science, Literature, Art. Science is literally knowledge, but more usually denotes a systematic and orderly arrangement of knowledge. In a more distinctive sense, science embraces those branches of knowledge of which the subject-matter is either ultimate principles, or facts as explained by principles or laws thus arranged in natural order. The term literature sometimes denotes all compositions not embraced under science, but usually confined to the belles-lettres. [See Literature.] Art is that which depends on practice and skill in performance. In science, scimus ut sciamus; in art, scimus ut producamus. And, therefore, science and art may be said to be investigations of truth; but one, science, inquires for the sake of knowledge; the other, art, for the sake of production; and hence science is more concerned with the higher truths, art with the lower; and science never is engaged, as art is, in productive application. And the most perfect state of science, therefore, will be the most high and accurate inquiry; the perfection of art will be the most apt and efficient system of rules; art always throwing itself into the form of rules." Karslake.>> _____________ Notice the prominence of knowledge, systematic reasoned study etc? We need to realise just how much we are facing a new irrationalism in our day. Ironically, given the prestige of science, it likes to dress up in the lab coat. If we are to begin to think straight, we have to go right back to the roots. That is what the OP does, and it is why there is such hostility or distraction, distortion and dismissiveness towards that cold logic. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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sean samis:
God is an unscientific idea because gods and claims about gods cannot be verified or falsified.
ID is a scientific idea because ID and claims about ID can be verified or falsified.
If the purpose is to undermine a particular scientific theory,...
Evolutionism isn't a scientific theory.Virgil Cain
September 8, 2015
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Aleta: I agree with Sean. I agree with kf. {/cheerleading}Mung
September 8, 2015
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Barry, No scientist needs to think they know what’s “all the way down”; they only need to work on the next layer. The same applies to us laypersons. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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Science and reason follow the truth wherever they lead; you dislike where it’s going so you want to obstruct the search for truth. That is unworthy of you or your efforts.
This is one of the more absurd statements ever uttered on this site.
Nothing about your logic changes what the scientist SHOULD DO.
Scientist should say we haven't a clue much more often, especially about several origins where science has essentially failed to provide anything close to a coherent/plausible theory/explanation.jerry
September 8, 2015
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I have addressed your logic. Your logic may be impeccable from the epistemologist’s stand point; but it is irrelevant from the scientist’s stand point. Nothing about your logic changes what the scientist SHOULD DO. If I am wrong about that, please tell us how, and please be specific. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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Aleta,
the central point is that you are not correct that the only reasonable belief is that all chains of explanation have to be grounded in a set of first principles that we, as human beings, can know
. I suppose Aleta is happy with it being turtles all the way down.Barry Arrington
September 8, 2015
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SS, you continue the distract, distort denigrate, polarise and dismiss rhetoric game. It is clear that you are not addressing the logic. Later. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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kairosfocus: @17:
Note the rhetorical game above, of dragging distractive red herrings across the focal issue, then leading them off to loaded strawmen, to be set alight to cloud, confuse ...
... blah blah blah. Really, kairosfocus, just because you’ve lost control of the conversation that doesn’t mean the rest of us are breaking any rules of debate. We are commenting on your OP, on topic. You just have no words to say, so you claim we are cheating. @18:
...when you are over a strategic target, expect heavy flak.
The flak is all yours kairosfocus. You raised the question and some of us have responded. It didn’t go as you hoped. That happens. You can raise the topic but you don’t control our responses. @20:
Aleta, you are simply asserting.
Simply asserting is your technique too, kairosfocus. The question on this thread is not just about epistemology, but whether science must submit to the demands of the epistemologist. I and Aleta have given reasons to show that the answer is ‘no’. All you do is complain. If you have a reason that science should submit to the epistemologist, please tell us what it is. Respond to our arguments. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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Axel @15:
You still don’t get it do you? Empirical science is not the ‘bees’ knees’ you think it. It’s scientism, naive realism. It can only cope with the basic matter, not even the most basic, as that has been found to be immaterial.
Truly, this could not be much wronger.
QM is now metaphysics; that it continues to discover paradoxes is simply a divine indulgence, and no gift of ‘intuition’, never mind the analytical intelligence, reason, logic, will ever, ever explain them.
As Aleta wrote (@16), the mysteries of QM are just the next layer of the onion. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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Aleta, you are simply asserting. Talking points make no cases, kindly substantiate; and do so on the actual case made e.g. sets of first plausibles are much broader than self-evident truths. When you do so, explain why the issue on the table is a or even the central question in epistemology. KF PS: On mind-boggling, please start with the infographic if that is the case, it lays out the core logic. Why A, B. Why B, C. So, chaining. Then, what happens in the end. Infinite regress, a circle or finitely remote first plausibles. What is wrong with the first two? Where does that leave us finite fallible thinkers in the end? And on various alternatives, how does comparative difficulties address question-begging?kairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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Your prose is mind-boggling, kf, but the central point is that you are not correct that the only reasonable belief is that all chains of explanation have to be grounded in a set of first principles that we, as human beings, can know.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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PS: Note the analysis and prediction in the OP:
We are looking at getting our logic straight in order to think in a logically, epistemologically and dynamically coherent fashion about origins issues, linked science and worldview implications. Yes, this is about first principles of right reason. Go amiss there, and all else thereafter will wander off into thickets of error. The logic of chains of warrant and of causation (thus the triple alternatives) is patent and effectively undeniable on pain of absurdity. This of course does not prevent the committed, determined objector from trying to divert attention or dismiss what he does not wish to face, or stop him from erecting and knocking over a suitably loaded strawman caricature. But it does highlight what such an objector will be forced to do: cling to absurdities, ill-founded speculations and divert attention by going on the rhetorical attack. As is so sadly familiar from years of debates in and around UD.
It is no accident that this thread has been hauled and pulled as predicted: when you are over a strategic target, expect heavy flak. That speaks volumes on what is going on. Again, later.kairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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F/N: Note the rhetorical game above, of dragging distractive red herrings across the focal issue, then leading them off to loaded strawmen, to be set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the situation. That issue starts with, that there is a strict, straight-thinking cold clear-cut, almost geometry proof logical issue that structures worldviews and therefore frames of thought on all sorts of issues including origins, science, education and what is influenced by such, on the table. If one resists or is hostile to or wants to brush aside, dismiss and ignore such a basic point of logic -- actually of simply being rational, that speaks inadvertent volumes about underlying incoherence, improper motivation on politically tinged polarisation, and then in the end how we have got to a point where the institutionally dominant evolutionary materialist scientism of our day is blatantly self-refuting and necessarily false thus a wellspring of errors and follies now inundating just about anything you care to name. But notice -- when that is duly exposed to the cold light of day, it has very little effect on evo mat adherents [or is that, talking point zombies or knowing agenda enablers or outright agitprop activists], as can already be seen above. All of these are sobering warning signs on where business as usual these days is headed in our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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Axel writes,
It will only remain unanswered by empirical science, because it merges in the spiritual realm – hence the ever proliferating paradoxes of QM, of physics. You only see deism as an impediment through your lens of scientism. However there is no physics without metaphysics; and via QM, metaphysics has clearly led to mysteries, such as entanglement, involving factors beyond our space-time universe.
"... because it merges into the spiritual realm ..." My point is that "the spiritual realm" is a made-up non-answer - it's just a placeholder for "we don't know." QM doesn't change this. The mysteries of QM are a deeper layer of the onion - they don't fit the classical worldview of time, space, causation, and Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean they have entered into the "spiritual realm." They have just expanded our knowledge (and therefore added the next layer of questions) about how the material world works. The current inner-most layer of the onion will always present the question, "but why is it like that?" Answering that question with "God" is always a non-answer.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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You still don't get it do you? Empirical science is not the 'bees' knees' you think it. It's scientism, naive realism. It can only cope with the basic matter, not even the most basic, as that has been found to be immaterial. QM is now metaphysics; that it continues to discover paradoxes is simply a divine indulgence, and no gift of 'intuition', never mind the analytical intelligence, reason, logic, will ever, ever explain them.Axel
September 8, 2015
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Obviously (to me at least), the pivotal issue in science about origins is choosing. Choosing is the mechanism of creation. The 2 big elements of reason are fact and opinion (again obviously). Facts are models / copies (also obvious), and opinions are the result of choosing about what it is that made a decision turn out the way it did (obvious when you study the structure of common subjective statements like "the painting is beautiful"). Facts apply to creation, opinion applies to the creator. And what about acknowledging MY emotions, in a properly subjective way? I am in it for me, against all those who will not properly subjectively acknowledge the existence of my soul. Who I am as being the owner of my decisions, who I really am. You can only reach a conclusion about it by choosing the answer, that is how subjectivity works. It means you have at least 2 answers available, either of which you can choose, and when you have chosen that is then the reality of who I really am, in your opinion. That is what creationism vs evolution is all about, and the science about how things are chosen, well that is just secondary to the basic civilization of acknowledging each others emotions. All those who regard it as a matter of fact what somebody feels, such as materialists, atheists, physicalists and what have you. I find it highly insulting for my spirit to be ignored and in stead only some factual issues about my body, brain or mind are addressed. And my advice on making an opinion on who I really am is, apply much mercy, forgiveness, in forming your opinion about me.mohammadnursyamsu
September 8, 2015
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Excellent post, Sean. {/cheerleading}Aleta
September 8, 2015
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Axel @11:
Christian belief, however, even deistic belief, far from being an impediment to prospecting for further knowledge, would seem to have been key to the major paradigm shifts, so where you folk get this idea that God is a necessary no-no is the real mystery.
God is an unscientific idea because gods and claims about gods cannot be verified or falsified. If you can provide a verifiable (or falsifiable) theory based on your religious beliefs, by all means do share. Deistic belief is only an impediment to science when, as KF tries, it is used to challenge science or its established methods. Otherwise deistic belief is not an impediment; it’s just useless.
BUT WE DON’T KNOW…
Unfortunately, that is how science has always worked. The difference between religion and science is both have things they DON’T KNOW, but only science has a method of learning. Religion merely confirms its prior beliefs. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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Aleta: 'There will always be an unanswered (and perhaps eventually unanswerable) question aboout the next layer of causes no matter how much valid, verified chains of causation we uncover.' It will only remain unanswered by empirical science, because it merges in the spiritual realm - hence the ever proliferating paradoxes of QM, of physics. You only see deism as an impediment through your lens of scientism. However there is no physics without metaphysics; and via QM, metaphysics has clearly led to mysteries, such as entanglement, involving factors beyond our space-time universe. Christian belief, however, even deistic belief, far from being an impediment to prospecting for further knowledge, would seem to have been key to the major paradigm shifts, so where you folk get this idea that God is a necessary no-no is the real mystery. Sean: 'Multiverse theories are relatively new, that they are yet unverified is no big deal.' Children's song on UK TV in the fifties: Billy Bean built a machine to see what it would do. He built it up of sticks and stones and nuts and bolts and glue' Alas, Billy suffered a similar hyperskepticism. It seems to be the mark of the great pioneers that they are so far ahead of the game that they are persecuted; at best, sneered at. BUT WE DON'T KNOW... But, seriously, you speak of God as if introducing Him were entirely gratuitous, in the sense of being completely pie-in-the-sky, totally bereft of evidence. Bizarrely, to the atheist, that is patently obvious. However, it is a farcical, grotesque, mind-numbingly vacuous error that no amount of evidence to the contrary could be adequate to rebut. You folk already exist in an alternative universe, in which appraisal of empirical evidence is highly subjective in very principle. Ask Richard Lewontin; possibly the one where marriages are single-sex.Axel
September 8, 2015
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I agree with Sean. There will always be an unanswered (and perhaps eventually unanswerable) question aboout the next layer of causes no matter how much valid, verified chains of causation we uncover. Positing "God" (or some associated set of "root" principles) as the solution to this problem is a non-answer.Aleta
September 8, 2015
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For philosophers and theologians, perhaps. For scientists and science, no, it is not. Doing science is like peeling an onion; it goes one layer at a time. There’s no need to know what’s at the very bottom to investigate what is right in front of you. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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SS, again, the pivotal issue is the logic of chains of warrant and of cause. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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kairosfocus; “The problem” is nothing more that my temerity (and that of others) to disagree with you. Your response is Exhibit A in my defense against your illegitimate purposes. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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