Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Putting the mind back on the table for discussion

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Design theory infers to design on inductive inference on tested reliable empirical signs. While many are disinclined to accept such inferences on matters linked to origins, that says more about lab coat clad materialist ideological a prioris and their cultural influences than it does about the actual balance of evidence on the merits.

But also, design implies designer.

One who exhibits creative, purposeful, imaginative, skilled intelligence adequate to configure a functionally specific, complex organised information-rich entity. Ranging from the text of this contribution (well beyond the 500 – 1,000 bits of FSCO/I that are easily shown to be beyond the plausible reach of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of solar system or observed cosmos), to complex body plans, to the DNA code — code! — involved, to first cell-based life to the complex fine tuned cosmos that facilitates the possibility of such life.

But, it seems, genuinely independent, conscious, purposeful, creative designing mind is also under materialist interdict.

Never mind the still telling force of famed Evolutionist J B S Haldane’s apt turn of the 1930’s observation:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true.They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]

So, I think it is time to put the mind back on the table.

Starting with the principle that rocks have no dreams:

self_aware_or_not

Which, means that conscious mind is categorically distinct from blind mechanism based on cogs acting blindly on other cogs, or the substantial equivalent.

And continuing with the issue that blind mechanical processing is inherently limited by that blindness . . . a rock has no dreams, including “dust” reconfigured as neural network “gate” arrays:

A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle
A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle

 

I do so here, as there is a video involved that I doubt can be embedded at UD.

So. now, let us ponder the GIGO principle. As wiki aptly summarises (inadvertently testifying against known ideological inclination):

Garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) in the field of computer science or information and communications technology refers to the fact that computers, since they operate by logical processes, will unquestioningly process unintended, even nonsensical, input data (“garbage in”) and produce undesired, often nonsensical, output (“garbage out”).

Yes, blind mechanisms do not ask un-programmed questions and if out of whack or inadequately debugged, will just as blindly spew out garbage. They are utterly unreasoning, glorified calculation devices.

So, I say: GIGO-limited computation is not contemplation.

Again, I say: contemplative, creative designing mind does not credibly emerge from blind chance and mechanical necessity.

Yet again, I say: contemplative mind is categorically different from blindly computing matter, as a rock has no dreams.

So, now, what do you say, why? END

Comments
@102 Only for kf this is a basic premise, RB indeed has a valid reason to believe that rocks don´t dream: No brains! RB seems to want this difference to be acknowledged.Indium
June 17, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill:
The first words I uttered on this thread were that I “absolutely agree” that rocks have no dreams (contemplation, consciousness, etc.).
You can then perhaps justify your reason(s) for demanding that kairosfocus justify the premise of an argument in which you both agree upon the truth of the premise.
Why can’t that which dreams without a brain be a rock?
Why would you even ask such a question, given how you opened your post? I “absolutely agree” that rocks have no dreams (contemplation, consciousness, etc.). Why can't anything be a rock? Why can't everything be a rock? Why can't a brain be a rock?Mung
June 16, 2014
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KF:
You … skipped over the challenge I gave — the Glasgow Coma test.
The first words I uttered on this thread were that I “absolutely agree” that rocks have no dreams (contemplation, consciousness, etc.). Why you think that rock-unresponsiveness to the Glasgow would be a problem for me, I can’t fathom. Further, if you administer the Glasgow to the conscious vat-bound brain in your illustration above (go ahead, they're up there together in your OP), you'll obtain the same result as from a rock. No less than rocks, brains in vats have no eyes, don't verbalize and don't engage in motor movements in response to painful stimulation, either. Where does that leave your challenge? Most important: What your citation of the Glasgow does show is that you don’t understand my question, as apparently you conclude from it that I am advocating that rocks dream (contemplate, etc.). That’s the only interpretation that comports with your notion that the absence of rock responses to the Glasgow would be a “challenge" for me. If you can suggest another, please do. Otherwise, you should withdraw the Glasgow challenge post-haste.
That is part of why I am answering him the way I am…
Specifically, by not answering.
I am not even convinced that a brain is necessary for dreaming.
Thank you for that. Given that you are willing to entertain the notion that brains are not necessary for dreaming (contemplation, subjectivity, etc.), what DO you think is necessary? Are bodies necessary at all? If dreaming may be possible absent brains (and therefore absent the physical and computational complexity brains entail), on what basis do you claim that brainless rocks can’t dream? Why can’t that which dreams without a brain be a rock?Reciprocating Bill
June 16, 2014
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JWT: The observation that heavy and unsupported objects near earth tend to fall at 9.8 N/kg is a common observation, and a reliable one we base ever so much of what we do on. E.g. we don't usually build the roof of a building first. That is my context. And BTW, C S Lewis aptly pointed out that to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of nature, miracles require that there be such an order. So does moral responsibility . . . consequences of our actions need to be reasonably intelligible and predictable. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2014
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BA77 re. #97:
“I personally have a rather higher standard for the truth of the spiritual information by which I will live my life” Not by me you don’t! In my opinion you have a greater propensity, via Ouija boards and channeling charlatans, to delude yourself into believing whatever you want to be true rather beforehand than following the evidence where it leads.
BA, your arrogance is matched in my experience by only one other group of people, and that is a particular subset of atheists. You both are so certain not only that you are right, but also that no intelligent, objective person in possession of the evidence could arrive at any other conclusion than your own. Thus, since neither of you is willing to entertain the possibility that I have seriously contemplated the evidence and simply arrived at different conclusions than you have, you both make up stories regarding the psychological reasons that I reject the obvious truth that each of you endorses. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in this case it's basically worthless. You really have no clue regarding what motivates my spiritual seeking nor the reasons that I hold the beliefs that I do. Your assertion that you understand the psychology behind the path of my spiritual journey is the height of arrogance. It does you no credit.Bruce David
June 16, 2014
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@kf:
JWT, Thanks for a thought. Gravity (as an example) is not invented by us — more recognised as a mechanical pattern with well known effects, nor is it unreliable.
"Our" gravity is modeled after one of God's laws. There's no requirement for a good model to model every aspect of the real object. You say it is not unreliable, yet let's say I experience a case where gravity seems to be suspended: Does it mean our model of God's law is incomplete (--> then the model IS unreliable for that particular case, which makes it still reliable for all the other cases) or maybe there's an interference with another law (whatever that means) or that God's law has been suspended? No one knows... The scientist in my brains says: let's find out!
I would be the last to suggest that laws of nature are exception-less;
Obviously I would be the last one ;-)JWTruthInLove
June 16, 2014
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"I personally have a rather higher standard for the truth of the spiritual information by which I will live my life" Not by me you don't! In my opinion you have a greater propensity, via Ouija boards and channeling charlatans, to delude yourself into believing whatever you want to be true rather beforehand than following the evidence where it leads. i.e. “believe what you want Mr. David, but I’m certainly not going off that cliff with ya! :) ” I've said my piece so, after you try to justify your insanity once more, I will not respond anymore.bornagain77
June 16, 2014
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the claim: "The cliff exists solely in your imagination" Yet the wings that you imagine that you have are what is imaginary and the 'infinite' cliff awaiting after death is what is very real: Space-Time of a Black hole - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8 NASA's Black-Hole-Hunter Catches Its First 10 Supermassive Black Holes - Sep. 9, 2013 — http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130909154918.htm Birth of a black hole captured - November 22, 2013 Excerpt: An artist’s conception of the processes by which a star collapses and becomes a black hole, releasing high-energy gamma rays and X-rays, as well as visible light, in the process. An armada of instruments detected the brightest recorded event of this type occurring on April 27, 2013. Los Alamos National Laboratory’s RAPTOR (RAPid Telescopes for Optical Response) system saw the visual flash as it occurred in the constellation Leo and lingered for more than two minutes. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/birth-of-a-black-hole-captured/ “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476 Scientists gear up to take a picture of a black hole - January 2012 Excerpt: "Swirling around the black hole like water circling the drain in a bathtub, the matter compresses and the resulting friction turns it into plasma heated to a billion degrees or more, causing it to 'glow' – and radiate energy that we can detect here on Earth." http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-scientists-gear-picture-black-hole.html A man, at the 7:00 minute mark of this video, gives testimony of falling down a 'tunnel' in the transition stage from this world to hell: Hell - A Warning! – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HSgH2AHkfkw&list=PLCB5F225ABC1F7330#t=420bornagain77
June 16, 2014
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wallstreeter43, re. #82:
Bruce David ,IMF you dnt have much confidence in believing what Jeus said in the bible is what Jesus really said ,then heck, lets throw out all of ancient history because they have a super poor historicity then the New Testament .
First of all, I'm not sure it's true that other elements of ancient history are poorer than the New Testament. It's true that the sources tend to be sparser and more removed in time from the events they record, but on the other hand, their authors were primarily historians whose agenda was presumably an unbiased reporting of what actually happened, to the best of their ability. We can make no such assumption on the part of the gospel writers. We don't know who they were, and their agenda almost certainly included inspiring the faithful and converting the unbelievers. We have no way of knowing to what extent that agenda influenced their commitment to historical accuracy. Likewise, we don't know how committed the gospel writers' own sources were to historical accuracy, either. Secondly, I personally have a rather higher standard for the truth of the spiritual information by which I will live my life than I do for the truth of what happened historically in ancient times. Having an imperfect record of the history of those times is better than no record at all, and if it is incorrect in some or even many of the details, well, so what? On the other hand, if I am going to attempt to live my life according to the teachings of a spiritual master, then I want to know that I have available to me an accurate version of what those teachings are or were, and frankly, I have no confidence at all that we know what Jesus actually said during his ministry. As for the shroud of Turin, see my comments in #71, second paragraph.Bruce David
June 16, 2014
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BA77, re. #92: Don't worry about it. The cliff exists solely in your imagination.Bruce David
June 16, 2014
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RB:
If the physical states exhibited by brains, but absent in rocks, don’t account for human dreams (contemplation, etc.) then you’ve no basis for claiming rocks are devoid of dreams – at least not on the basis of the physical states present in brains and absent in rocks.
The physical states exhibited by our brains are necessary but not sufficient to account for human dreams. Rocks don't even have the necessary part.Joe
June 16, 2014
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BD further to: "where one person perceives a cliff, another experiences a launching pad into the infinite." Watch that first step buddy :) I'm learning to fly but I ain't got wings Coming down is the hardest thing I'm learning to fly around the clouds But what goes up must come down Tom Petty - Learning To Fly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5BJXwNeKsQbornagain77
June 16, 2014
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JWT, Thanks for a thought. Gravity (as an example) is not invented by us -- more recognised as a mechanical pattern with well known effects, nor is it unreliable. But, circumstances may obtain that overcome its effects. And, as one who is alive today because of miracles, I would be the last to suggest that laws of nature are exception-less; once a relevant factor is acting. And while I would be first to accept that our picture of laws of nature is incomplete and open-ended, gravity is an example of something that is not particularly likely to be revised at the level of heavy unsupported things near earth's surface tending to fall at 9.8 N/kg and needing a similar level of support not to fall. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2014
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@kf:
in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws.
Meaning they are not that reliable after all. No wonder, these are physical laws, WE, ignorant beings, formulate. How much do our laws represent the actual physical laws established by God? No one knows...JWTruthInLove
June 16, 2014
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RB, memory is important but there is a LOT more than memory going on there. I think we have to start thinking of the neuron as a complex, sophisticated information processing gate with analogue and digital aspects. Weightings of couplings, networks of coupled elements and feedback loops are all important, I think. Cf the 101 level intro chart in the OP. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2014
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Mapou, that is one I don't wish to detail. All I will say is that I have recently witnessed the malevolent supernatural in action in ways beyond the reach of physical law, held down to a limit by the Benevolent Supernatural, in the context of rescue of a victim. Along with dozens of others, literally. Here, there be dragons, and I do not mean in the sense of ignorance. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2014
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Kairofocus yes i agree our memory is only a tool for our true thinking self. Our soul. Yet we are so meshed to our memory that only death allows us to think freely with our soul. We are trapped by our memory in almost every way. in fact I believe jesus was likewise trapped by a human memory and this is why he had to grow in wisdom as a boy. otherwise gOd would not have to grow in wisdom at all much less pick it up here. i am confident the memory is the greatest think in our brain and in fact our brain might just be a big memory machine. So our mind is just a memory machine. This is why there is such error about machines being intelligent. They are only memory operations. anything they mimic of man is proof its just memory with us.Robert Byers
June 16, 2014
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kairosfocus @85, Strange post. Please clarify.Mapou
June 16, 2014
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PS: For those pondering the malevolent supernatural, all I will say is that I have personally and in company of dozens, seen that in action in violation of known physics; and I mean basic reliable laws. Things I used to laugh at when as a kid I saw on cartoon Saturdays, I no longer find so funny . . . I begin to wonder about just what lies behind some of those cartoons. I cannot deny what I have indisputably seen under circumstances that make convergent mass hallucination from multiple perspectives by people of diverse backgrounds etc essentially a non-starter, and have had to deal with and process those facts. I think we had better begin to think about a world of oracles that can interface with MIMO cybernetic entities, sometimes in very strange ways. Whether or no this sits comfortably with a nice mid-C20 smugly "scientific" mindset.kairosfocus
June 16, 2014
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WS: Get a keyboard for that tablet! (The glass keyboard is a toy.) KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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G2: Where did you get the notion from that mindedness is OUTSIDE ourselves, apart from implicit a priori materialism? Which, runs straight into the Haldane challenge and its extensions. You are also failing to address the discussion already had in which it was pointed out step by step that in considering a rock, we find only passive behaviour under blind stochastic and mechanical/chemical forces . . . you forget the scientific principle of organised observation and description as prior to and controlling of hypothesising and testing on inference to best explanation. Show us a raw rock or rock-statue that passes the Glasgow Coma test or the reasonable equivalent (including contextually aware reasonable response in language that goes beyond obvious canned responses) and we will accept that rock as a physical manifestation of mind at work. Raw rocks don't pass that test. That monumental failure is on record as far back as the Israelite Prophets ridiculing idolatry. Refining and re-organising, we get to computation, which further turns out to be blind also and GIGO limited. That is what the OP and its partner post where I can freely embed a vid, comes in. Whether we look at a Thomson mechanical integrator (in response to Leibnitz's analogy of the mill), or a digital computer -- note the onward link to a discussion of exactly how a typical digital computer works -- or an array of neural "gates," we find ourselves staring at the GIGO limit. All these devices and networks are simply mechanically processing signals based on functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I], and are sensitive to signal/information quality, specific correctness of organisation, underlying models/algorithms embedded in design and software, etc etc. Garbage in, garbage out. (Though these days we are too often fooled into thinking garbage in, gospel out.) As FSCO/I based entities, the existence of such, in a world of beyond astronomical config spaces [try deducing the number of configs for just 1,000 bits of info, noting that a 3-d blueprint is reducible to coded strings per AutoCAD etc] points to the only known vera causa plausible source, design. That's already an oracle involved: the designer. And, if you imagine that config spaces like that with GIGO-driven islands of function like that can be successfully traversed on the gamut of our observable cosmos by blind chance and mechanical necessity, do the search scope to config space comparison and think again. Next, observe our own capacities to reason, intuit, understand, have insight, know, create and purpose as well as decide and act. Contrast Haldane's point, as can be expanded. Blind chance and mechanical necessity simply do not credibly account for that, nor does GIGO limited processing. Yes, the brain-body system is a MIMO, memory using cybernetic loop as Derek Smith models usefully. But that is a GIGO limited computational system. The OBSERVED capacities go well beyond what such can do, just notice how easily we output essentially unlimited quantities of FSCO/I verbally and by what we do with our hands and extensions through machines and tools. Through keyboards we even talk with our hands. With pencils and paper etc, we visualise with our hands. Or, in the case of Joni Eareckson-Tada, her mouth. We routinely go well beyond the limits of blind chance and necessity and GIGO-limited computation. We reason, warrant, know, intuit, have insight, create, diagnose and debug, develop, strategise, purpose, judge, transform, and more. All of this points to an oracle that supervises the loop and carries it beyond mechanical blind signal processing based computation. We have a semantic, semiotic, self-aware oracle within that understands and acts on meanings. And that is in fact the first fact we know about ourselves -- we are self-aware, self-moved minded entities. And, mindedness vastly transcends the mechanical world we find ourselves embodied in with a fine granularity that transcends the credible limits of computational simulations. (Fineness of resolution, as anyone who has done visual manipulation of images knows, rapidly chokes processing power. The "processors" are in a vast distributed network programmed by laws of nature -- we are in a world of atoms, molecules etc. The 3-D nature means that a doubling of fine-scale multiplies complexity eightfold. The relevant basic scale is of order 10^-15 m, and 10^-44s as time-tick. Mind-bogglingly complex.) So, we find ourselves as minded, and indeed if we try to reduce mind to computational, mechanical/ chemical/ electrical mechanism, GIGO cuts in and leads straight to self-referential incoherence. Evolutionary materialism is patently self-refuting. The real issue is, what is mind, and how does it interface with the brain-body cybernetic loop. And that in turn points to the fine tuning evidence that indicates that mind is prior to and creative of physical cosmos. Thence, we may wish to ponder possibilities for quantum level influence as mechanisms for interface between the world of minds -- yes, plural -- and that of MIMO loops based on material substrates. Welcome to C21. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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Bruce David ,IMF you dnt have much confidence in believing what Jeus said in the bible is what Jesus really said ,then heck, lets throw out all of ancient history because they have a super poor historicity then the New Testament . While we are at it lets through out the words of the students of the apostles starting with Clemente of Rome (80 to 90 ad) ignatius of Antioch who called. Jesus God in 110 ad and polycarp in about the same time period who were all amazingly consistent with what the New Testament . While we are at a it let through out the Didache which is also from that time period. Only someone from the lunatic fringe in contemporary New Testament history thinks as you do. While we are at it we can also discuss the shroud of turin which I a have researched for 5+ years now. Maybe you can shine in with your opinion on that relic which fits hand in glove with the gospels description of the passion and crucifixion of Christ. Indontbknow which history yoir readimg but the more I read the more confident I became in the reliability if the New Testament . While your at it you can also read any book on sir William Ramsey who thought exactly like you (a Christian liberal theology archeologist) who went to the holy lands to prove that the New Testament writings came 200 years after. Christ and were therefor unreliable , but came back from his dig more convinced of the relability of the New Testament's historicity and also came away with a deep respect for the gospel writer Luke who he called a historian of unparalleled equal . I'm available by email anytime younwantbto discuss the shroud of turin but it seems like most atheists are deftly afraid to discuss it. I'm running out of atheists to debate it with lol. 18 tried from one forum and 18 have come away very insecure of their atheism :)wallstreeter43
June 15, 2014
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KF: We all agree rocks cant dream, compute etc, but you whole shtick is that we have something outside ourselves (mind/soul etc etc) that we cant see/detect that is doing the dreaming/computing for us. So, if we cant detect this in the case of humans (but you seem confident exists) why cant rocks have a mind/soul/whatever ?Graham2
June 15, 2014
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BA77: I understood you perfectly. The purpose of my comment was to point out that where one person perceives a cliff, another experiences a launching pad into the infinite.Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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What part of "believe what you want Mr. David, but I’m certainly not going off that cliff with ya! :) " did you not understand?bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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BA 77 re. 77: You regard a document that has come down to us from 2000 years ago as the word of God, a document whose accuracy I regard as highly dubious, for reasons already stated (#74), among others. I accept that the the entity who calls himself Seth lived many lives on Earth and was able to communicate to us through the woman Jane Roberts, based on the quality of the material transmitted, and the degree to which it resonates with my own inner sense of what is true. I also accept that Neale Donald Walsch was able to transmit direct revelation from God, as recorded in Conversations with God for similar reasons. Each of us must sift through the myriad competing claimants of truth and decide for ourself which to accept and which to reject. There is no other option. You and I have come to different conclusions in the matter. So be it. You do realize that derision and disdain do not qualify as valid arguments, right?Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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Oh goody, Seth's words were recorded exactly as they were spoken by a woman who made contact with the spirit named Seth when she started experimenting with an Ouija Board,,, Color me unimpressed,,, severely so! Let's see I can do you one better and show you an actual video recording of a woman channeling the 'master teacher' Ramtha: Ramtha - Be Your Own Savior https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnSZZafpf1c Interesting, watching the video recording makes it even more stupid than it sounded to me when I read about it. Yep, believe what you want Mr. David, but I'm certainly not going off that cliff with ya! :)bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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ok thanks @StephenA also what is Platonism and what does it imply for views of Space, Time and the Mind. I've looked and researched but I do not really understand.Jaceli123
June 15, 2014
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Hey its been a long time since I’ve been online here but how can there be a mind and decision making processes when time creates constant copies of yourself and other people? How can we talk to people freely when they are actually just a copy not the real thing?
I'm not entirely sure why you say time creates constant copies. It is something that I believe is implied if you hold to strict materialism, but most materialists don't seem to believe it. You may want to explain why materialists should believe this, since most don't seem to have thought it through. I'm not a materialist however, and I believe that souls are eternal and immutable. Our bodies may be 'copied' from moment to moment, but our souls remain the same entity to the end of time and beyond.StephenA
June 15, 2014
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BA77 re. #72: Seth's words were recorded exactly as he spoke them by Jane's husband. My point is that I really have no confidence that anyone knows what Jesus actually said. Nor, by the way, do I give much credence to passages in the Bible attributed to anyone other than Jesus. The difference between us, BA, is that you regard the Bible as the word of God, whereas I regard it as a very imperfect record of the life of someone who might have been a very advanced soul, coupled with stories about the lives of some of those who followed him.Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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