Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Who really understands what an island of function is or is not?

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Earlier today, I decided to check back at TSZ, to see if they have recovered from the recent regrettable hack attack. They are back up, at least in part. The following however, caught my eye:

Intelligent design proponents make a negative argument for design.  According to them, the complexity and diversity of life cannot be accounted for by unguided evolution (henceforth referred to simply as ‘evolution’) or any other mindless natural process.  If it can’t be accounted for by evolution, they say, then we must invoke design . . . .

What mysterious barrier do IDers think prevents microevolutionary change from accumulating until it becomes macroevolution?  It’s the deep blue sea, metaphorically speaking.  IDers contend that life occupies ‘islands of function’ separated by seas too broad to be bridged by evolution.

In this post (part 2a) I’ll explain the ‘islands of function’ metaphor and invite commenters to point out its strengths and weaknesses.  In part 2b I’ll explain why the ID interpretation of the metaphor is wrong, and why evolution is not stuck on ‘islands of function’.

This is quite wrong-headed, and easily explains part of why there is so little progress in exchanges:

1 –> The design inference is a positive inference on well tested, inductively established sign, not a negative inference.  For instance, the functionally specific, complex information [FSCO/I]  — notice the blend of complexity with specificity to achieve function — in the above clip is diagnostic of design as its most credible source. Something that is easily empirically verified on a base of literally billions of cases. (And there are no credible known exceptions, or that would have been trumpeted to the highest heavens all over the Web and in the literature.)

2 –> The similar inductive status of the island of function effect can also easily be shown from this text. There are a great many ways in which the 899 ASCII characters used in the above clip can be arranged: 128^899 ~ 2.41 *10^1894. (The number of Planck-time states of the 10^80 or so atoms of our observed cosmos since its credible beginning is less than 10^150, a very large number, but one that is utterly dwarfed by the set of possibilities for 899 ASCII characters.) Very few of them would convey the above message in recognisable English and while some noise — such as typos etc — can be tolerated, all too soon injection of random noise — a random walk on the island of function — would destroy function.

3 –> This is a simple illustration of a commonplace fact of life for complex, functionally specific entities made up from multiple, well-matched components that must be properly arranged and coupled together to achieve function. Taking our solar system as a zone of interest, the relevant components can be scattered in a great many ways indeed none of which will be functional. Even if clumped, a much smaller but still huge number of arrangements exists, the overwhelming majority of which possibilities will have no function.

4 –> Only in certain very special clusters of configurations (reflecting the amount of tolerance for configurations in a given neighbourhood) will there be functional configurations. So, we are at the issue that Dembski outlined long ago now, in No Free Lunch:

p. 148: “The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [[cf. here below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole] . . .”

p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”

5 –> This sort of functional specificity brings out how the sort of functional cluster in view is informational, i.e. there is a specific pattern, a set of nodes and arcs that has to be arranged in a form or pattern that allows function, within a fairly narrow range of tolerance. That range of neighbouring functional configs defines an island of function. Where also WLOG, as a nodes and arcs pattern can be reduced to a structured string [how AutoCAD etc work] this can be translated into string structures, with as many degrees of freedom as there are relevant bits.

6 –> Nor is this sort of remark exactly news, on Dec 30 2011, I noted here at UD as follows (something that was actually adverted to in the TSZ thread, but was not taken seriously by objectors to design . . . ):

1 –> Complex, multi-part function depends on having several well-matched, correctly aligned and “wired together” parts that work together to carry out an overall task, i.e. we see apparently purposeful matching and organisation of multiple parts into a whole that carries out what seems to be a goal. The Junkers Jumo 004 Jet engine in the above image is a relevant case in point.

2 –> Ever since Wicken posed the following clip in 1979, this issue of wiring-diagram based complex functional organisation has been on the table as a characteristic feature of life forms that must be properly explained by any successful theory of the causal roots of life. Clip:

‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.  Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]

3 –> The question at stake in the thread excerpted from above, is whether there can be an effective, incremental culling-out based on competition for niches and thence reproductive success of sub-populations that will create ever more complex systems that will then appear to have been designed.

4 –> Of course, we must notice that the implication of this claim is that we are dealing with in effect a vast continent of possible functional forms that can be spanned by a gradually branching tree. That’s a big claim, and it needs to be warranted on observational evidence, or it becomes little more than wishful thinking and grand extrapolation in service to an a priori evolutionary materialistic scheme of thought.

5 –> I cases where the function in question has an irreducible core of necessary parts, it is often suggested that something that may have had another purpose may simply find itself duplicated or fall out of use, then fit in with a new use. “Simple.”

6 –> NOT. For, such a proposal faces a cluster of challenges highlighted earlier in this UD series as posed by Angus Menuge [oops!] for the case of the flagellum:

For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:

C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function.

C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time.

C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed.

C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant.

C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.

( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

8 –> The number of biologically relevant cases where C1 – 5 has been observed: ZERO.

9 –> What is coming out ever more clearly is this:

when a set of matching components must be arranged so they can work together to carry out a task or function, this strongly constrains both the choice of individual parts and how they must be arranged to fit together

A jigsaw puzzle is a good case in point.

So is a car engine — as anyone who has had to hunt down a specific, hard to find part will know.

So are the statements in a computer program — there was once a NASA rocket that veered off course on launch and had to be destroyed by triggering the self-destruct because of — I think it was — a misplaced comma.

The letters and words in this paragraph are like that too.

That’s why (at first, simple level) we can usually quite easily tell the difference between:

A: An orderly, periodic, meaninglessly repetitive sequence: FFFFFFFFFF . . .

B: Aperiodic, evidently random, equally meaningless text: y8ivgdfdihgdftrs . . .

C: Aperiodic, but recognisably meaningfully organised sequences of characters: such as this sequence of letters . . .

In short, to be meaningful or functional, a correct set of core components have to match and must be properly arranged, and while there may be some room to vary, it is not true that just any part popped in in any number of ways can fit in.

As a direct result, in our general experience, and observation, if the functional result is complex enough, the most likely cause is intelligent choice, or design.  

This has a consequence. For, this need for choosing and correctly arranging then hooking up correct, matching parts in a specific pattern implicitly rules out the vast majority of possibilities and leads to the concept of islands of function in a vast sea of possible but meaningless and/or non-functional configurations.

10 –> Consequently, the normal expectation is that complex, multi-part functionality will come in isolated islands. So also, those who wish to assert an “exception” for biological functions like the avian flow-through lung, will need to  empirically warrant their claims. Show us, in short.

11 –> And, to do so will require addressing the difficulty posed by Gould in his last book, in 2002:

. . . long term stasis following geologically abrupt origin of most fossil morphospecies, has always been recognized by professional paleontologists. [The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (2002), p. 752.]

. . . .  The great majority of species do not show any appreciable evolutionary change at all. These species appear in the section [[first occurrence] without obvious ancestors in the underlying beds, are stable once established and disappear higher up without leaving any descendants.” [p. 753.]

. . . . proclamations for the supposed ‘truth’ of gradualism – asserted against every working paleontologist’s knowledge of its rarity – emerged largely from such a restriction of attention to exceedingly rare cases under the false belief that they alone provided a record of evolution at all! The falsification of most ‘textbook classics’ upon restudy only accentuates the fallacy of the ‘case study’ method and its root in prior expectation rather than objective reading of the fossil record. [[p. 773.]

12 –> In that context, the point raised by GP above, that

. . .  once a gene is duplicated and inactivated, it becomes non visible to NS. So, intelligent causes can very well act on it without any problem, while pure randomness, mutations and drift, will be free to operate in neutral form, but will still have the whole wall of probabilistic barriers against them.

. . . takes on multiplied force.

___________

In short, the islands of function issue — rhetorical brush-asides notwithstanding — is real, and it counts.  Let us see how the evolutionary materialism advocates will answer to it.

7 –> So, what is the grand overturn that shows that this is all nonsense? The concept of rising fitness functions that allow incremental change:

Now suppose that it rains for 40 days and 40 nights. The rain fills up our landscape, forming a vast sea.  Only the mountain tops remain above the water as islands – the ‘islands of function’ that IDers are so fond of.

Our populations occupy the islands.  Sea level indicates the minimum fitness at which mutants remain viable. Small changes will create viable descendants at different spots on the island, though the population as a whole will gravitate toward the high spots. Larger changes will put the mutants underwater, where they will die out.

The idea, according to ID proponents, is that populations remain stranded on these islands of function.  Some amount of microevolutionary change is possible, but only if it leaves you high and dry on the same island.  Macroevolution is not possible, because that would require leaping from island to island, and evolution is incapable of such grand leaps.  You’ll end up in the water.

There is some truth to the ‘islands of function’ metaphor, but it also has some glaring shortcomings that ID proponents almost always overlook.  I will mention some of the strengths and  shortcomings in the comments, and I know that my fellow commenters will point out others.

8 –> To which the obvious answer is that the requisites of complex, specific, integrated function define islands which are isolated by seas of non-function that need to be bridged, not just on paper but observationally AND WITHIN ACCESSIBLE SEARCH RESOURCES (where the atomic resources of our solar system make the BLIND SEARCH creation of 500 bits of novel FSCO/I maximally implausible, and  those of the observed cosmos max out at 1,000 bits.

9 –> In particular, the warrant for bridging islands of function requires that such a claim be justified observationally. Starting, with the origin of the very first body plan, and continuing with the origin of further body plans, requiring credibly 100 – 1,000 k bits of genetic information in the first case (in a string data structure) and of order 10 – 100 millions in onward cases for multicellular body plans.

10 –> Hardly less fatal, is something implied in what I just outlined. We are not dealing with known, close-by islands that were mountain-tops flooded out, but an unknown and patently vast seascape that may or may not contain islands of function, so far as the blind chance and mechanical necessity are concerned that are the only means of search permissible under the relevant conditions.  And, where there are strictly limited search resources that max out at 500 – 1,000 bits under very generous conditions.

11 –> So, what is really needed is to start with a warm little pond or the like scenario and get a suitable concentration of monomers and then collect a living cell, per reasonable observation. One that has encapsulation, with gating of materials flows, and carries out self-replication and metabolism using a genetic code mechanism and the like. then, we need to see observational warrant for going from that to novel body plans with specialised properly organised cell types, tissues, organs, systems etc, constituting a new organism. This simply has not been done, nor is such in prospect.

12 –> Absent that, what we have is gross extrapolation of micro changes in already existing body plans, substituted for what was really needed. That is, we need to explain crossing the sea of non-function by blind chance mechanisms that would put us on shorelines of function, not the incremental hill climbing that can happen by all accounts once we are on such a shoreline. And, this must start, logically, with the very first body plan.

13 –> At the same time, we are surrounded by a world of technology that tells us that intelligent designers exist and are fully capable of creating FSCO/I rich systems. And we have whole disciplines and professions that study and practice the design of FSCO/I rich systems.

_________

So, which alternative explanation is more reasonable on the actual evidence, why? END

Comments
Hacked? How can they possibly know they were hacked unless they know the identity of the hacker? How unscientific, to assign "design" to what should be explained as a coincidental accumulation of random errors emerging as what only appears to be deliberate hacking.William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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Funny question in the OP. TSZ got hacked. They are attempting to crawl out of an ocean of non-function back on to an island of function. Yet they deny such islands exist. Morons.Mung
March 19, 2013
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F/N: I need -- power drop outs permitting -- to take up a couple of further points that help us understand what is happening rhetorically: _______________ AF, 5 (re FSCO/I): Adequately described? Adequately? On whose judgement? And where can this adequate description be found? Quantified? Are you seriously claiming you can quantify FSCO/I with regard to a biological example? Surely the way to confirm this assertion is to demonstrate that you can indeed do what you claim. KF, F/N to 5: cf 15 ff below. Your questions above are answered — have long been answered — here on at IOSE, which as can be easily seen, I wrote. You should be well aware of this 101, given your 8 years of observing the ID debates. KF, 15 (there is much more there): for an object of complexity such that the nodes and arcs Wicken wiring diagram patterns [cf his 1979 remark on that topic, which is the actual root of the descriptive terms and initials FSCI and FSCO/I . . . . ] to create a flyable jet involve at least 500 – 1,000 structured yes/no questions [= 500 - 1,000 bits], the atomic resources of our solar system or of the observed cosmos as a whole will be blatantly inadequate for us to expect that such a structure would spontaneously emerge through blind forces. But, FSCO/I rich entities are routinely created by planned, deliberate work. In short, counterflow leading to FSCO/I is a strong sign of deliberate work according to an organising plan. AF, 26: Regarding your personal ID argument involving FSCO/I, I am not interested in pursuing it because it is currently solely your personal ID argument. None of the prominent ID proponents that I know of, Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Nelson etc. appear to have noticed FSCO/I, none of them have commented on it that I have noticed and certainly no-one has endorsed it. The DI or Evolution News have not picked up on it either. Your argument is currently deniable as ID. I reiterate that nothing you write about FSCO/I has any connection to reality and specifically to biology. Repeated demands for some genuine computation of a real biological example meet with empty bluster. Colour me unimpressed. WJM, 28: Alan Fox’s response at @26 shows that he isn’t interested in understanding ID arguments, and apparently he admits he’s incapable of understanding them. It doesn’t matter to him if KF or UB have presented incontrovertible arguments/evidence for ID and have shown it incontrovertibly necessary for life – because he’s not interested in it. He doesn’t understand it and isn’t interested in understanding it. He dismisses them with a wave of his “it’s just your personal view” hand. Apparently, all Alan Fox cares about is to sit on the sideline and cheer as experts on his “side” offer rebuttals he doesn’t understand to arguments/evidence he doesn’t comprehend, and aim negative comments at those who disagree with his experts. KF, 29 (much more there, starting with the significance of config spaces and AF's previously shown want of capacity to understand such then developing the link to search by blind chance plus mechanical necessity vs design): Anything that can be symbolised as a nodes and arcs “wiring diagram” pattern can be reduced to a structured set of strings. Indeed that is how virtual realities and computer aided engineering drawings etc are done. So, once we have a case where we are looking at complex objects and objects that are functionally specific similar to text in English or computer programs, etc, the same challenge will hold. We simply do not have the atomic resources and the time available to search such out enough to have confidence that we are likely to hit on functional zones. And, it is not a reasonable thing to assert that almost any and any configuration will do in the relevant sense. We see that easily enough with English text and computer programs or circuits, but he same holds for protein fold domains, which on empirical evidence are deeply isolated in AA sequence space, was it 1 in 10^65 or so? It gets worse, when we consider that we need hundreds of types of specific molecules, correctly organised to function as a metabolising, self replicating automaton. Thus, OOL is the first and decisive hurdle for a blind chance and necessity model of origin of the world of life. So strong is the pattern that we have every reason to expect, that those who claim otherwise or imply otherwise, need to provide strong empirical demonstrations. Which, for 150 years almost, have simply not been forthcoming, never mind the screaming headlines we have seen from time to time and the confident manner declarations. There is every good reason to see that life based on cells is designed, per FSCO/I as a highly reliable sign of design. And once that hurdle is passed, there is no good reason to try to lock out design in explaining body plans onwards. Optimus, 35 (replying to AF at 26): Signature in the Cell (by Meyer) argues quite deliberately from the presence of complex, functionally-specified information to ID. FSCO/I is not a construction of KF’s imagination. You’re badly mistaken on this one, Alan. KF, 40 (responding to Optimus -- the bulk of the comment is reproduced as it is pivotal): Durston, et al speak of functional sequence complexity and have developed a similar metric pivoting on Shannon’s H, the average info per symbol (in a context where symbols in an alphabet typically communicate different quantities of info), though they do not apply an explicit threshold value as I do. In my presentations, I have taken up their metrics and have shown how they fit with the thresholds I have used. There are others who say much the same, up to Dembski in NFL who speaks of how in biology specification is cashed out as function. Then there is what Wicken had to say way back in 1979, which is where I hit on the summary term from:
“organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’”
. . . and also what Orgel said in ’73, bearing in mind that in biological contexts, function is how specification is expressed:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.”
Just take these two key cites and the term, functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information — FSCO/I — practically drops out as a short-hand description. The problem is, it seems that in too many cases we are dealing with ideologues who do not care a whit about truth, reasonableness or fairness, so long as they can spew forth a superficially plausible dismissive assertion. Eugen, 43 (to AF): May I recommend you to read ID Foundation series here on UD starting with https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations-the-design-inference-warrant-and-the-scientific-method/ [--> Notice, this is not a reference to the weak argument correctives, but to a series of articles on pivotal concepts taken up as my first major set of posts for the UD blog as a regular contributor; AF did not even take time to see the difference from the WAC's as can be seen below.] It’s time to go …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNezZV4648I AF, 46: I am well awre of the FAQ (and it’s incoherency). Am I to take that as official ID movement endorsement of KF’ one long diatribe of bad analogies? Let’s see it stated explicitly from a big honcho of ID (Behe, Dembski, Meyer, mung) that they agree with, accept and support FSCO/I as a scientific proposition. ____________ What has happened here? Obviously, AF has not even bothered to notice that his demand for endorsement by a major ID proponent has been directly answered, i.e Meyer's Signature in the Cell pivots on the FSCO/I concept, whether or not he uses the term. In addition it is clear that the term is a simple description for a pattern noticed long before the ID movement emerged, in the 1970's by Orgel and Wicken. Going further, observe how AF slides from a reference to the UD ID foundations series, to a dismissive remark on the weak argument correctives (which he grossly mischaracterises in dismissing it). He has also made a demand for biological instantiation, ignoring that it is a commonplace since at least the 1970's that DNA and proteins are informational macromolecules that store well past 500 - 1,000 bits of information, explicitly or implicitly. (That is part of the context of Orgel and Wicken above.) In addition, taking the Chi_500 metric, AF has been repeatedly pointed to the Durston et al result that shows quantitative functional sequence complexity values for 15 protein families. (and their functional sequence complexity is again very closely related conceptually to the term I have used descriptively then have generated metrics for, FSCO/I. Shannon's H is a metric of average info per symbol, as I invited AF to examine previously.) Indeed, in outlining how the Chi_500 metric is generated by doing a log reduction of Dembski's 2005 metric, I noted:
since 10^120 ~ 2^398, we may "boil down" the Dembski metric using some algebra -- i.e. substituting and simplifying the three terms in order -- as log(p*q*r) = log(p) + log(q ) + log(r) and log(1/p) = – log (p): Chi = – log2(2^398 * D2 * p), in bits, and where also D2 = Phi S(T) Chi = Ip – (398 + K2), where now: log2 (D2 ) = K2 That is, chi is a metric of bits from a zone of interest, beyond a threshold of "sufficient complexity to not plausibly be the result of chance," (398 + K2). So, (a) since (398 + K2) tends to at most 500 bits on the gamut of our solar system [[our practical universe, for chemical interactions! ( . . . if you want , 1,000 bits would be a limit for the observable cosmos)] and (b) as we can define and introduce a dummy variable for specificity, S, where (c) S = 1 or 0 according as the observed configuration, E, is on objective analysis specific to a narrow and independently describable zone of interest, T: Chi = Ip*S – 500, in bits beyond a "complex enough" threshold . . . . xxii: So, we have some reason to suggest that if something, E, is based on specific information describable in a way that does not just quote E and requires at least 500 specific bits to store the specific information, then the most reasonable explanation for the cause of E is that it was designed. The metric may be directly applied to biological cases: Using Durston’s Fits values -- functionally specific bits -- from his Table 1, to quantify I, so also accepting functionality on specific sequences as showing specificity giving S = 1, we may apply the simplified Chi_500 metric of bits beyond the threshold: RecA: 242 AA, 832 fits, Chi: 332 bits beyond SecY: 342 AA, 688 fits, Chi: 188 bits beyond Corona S2: 445 AA, 1285 fits, Chi: 785 bits beyond xxiii: And, this raises the controversial question that biological examples such as DNA -- which in a living cell is much more complex than 500 bits -- may be designed to carry out particular functions in the cell and the wider organism.
In short, in easily accessible materials, AF's demands were met long before he made them. His attention was drawn to the fact. He ignored it and reiterated his talking points in willful disregard of duties of care to truth, fairness and even well merited correction. All that mattered to him, was to be able to get back to his dismissive, distractive talking points. And, we can bet that, if he can get away with it again, he will repeat the performance. Unfortunately, this sort of behaviour has been typical of the objectors we have had to deal with for years, and we see it here where they are on notice that they have to be civil. Elsewhere, it heads sharply downhill from there. So, we see what is really going on. And, we have a strong suspicion why, given that it is rapidly approaching six months since an open invitation was issued to any serious objector to make their case here at UD, with no serious takers to date. Obviously, the objectors cannot make their case on the straight merits. (VJT's current critical review of the limitations of a case where there was a serious try, shows a lot of why. Notice, this turns out to be a case of modelled intelligent design being used to try to make it out that Darwinian mechanism that specifically exclude design, can do the job.) Which speaks volumes about the claimed practically certain, all but indubitably factual nature of claimed universal common descent via chance variations and differential reproductive success in ecological niches leading to descent with unlimited modification. AF and ilk need to do much better than this. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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Mung:
Strange. My own experience over at TSZ was just the opposite of what you claim KF could expect if he went there.
I second that and can prove it.Joe
March 19, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I am well awre of the FAQ (and it’s incoherency).
YOU are the incoherency here, Alan. Your false accusation means nothing to us.Joe
March 19, 2013
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AF: Why are you descending into patently false dismissive assertions, instead of dealing with matters on the merits? Why have you shown no sign of engaging the obvious gaps in your knowledge base -- as has emerged in recent days, starting with, you did not seem to be able to understand a phase space and a configuration space -- that so obviously render you incapable of making the dismissive judgements you have just asserted? Does this not suggest that the real problem is not the merits of the case but a priori ideological commitments on your part to materialism and/or its fellow traveller views? Please, think again, then speak more fairly and substantially next time. KF PS: My experience of the attitude and behaviour of some of those harboured at various objector sites, and the lack of policing of abusive commentary leads me to the conclusion that -- apart from to make a simple statement for record -- there is no point in trying to argue a matter on the merits with those who have no intention of being reasonable, have every intention of being abusive [including threatening my family], and/or with those who enable or harbour such.kairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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Eugen I am well awre of the FAQ (and it's incoherency). Am I to take that as official ID movement endorsement of KF' one long diatribe of bad analogies? Let's see it stated explicitly from a big honcho of ID (Behe, Dembski, Meyer, mung) that they agree with, accept and support FSCO/I as a scientific proposition.Alan Fox
March 19, 2013
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Strange. My own experience over at TSZ was just the opposite of what you claim KF could expect if he went there.
L I A R ;)Alan Fox
March 19, 2013
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timothya:
You and your ID colleagues have not explained it.
How would you know?
An essential part of a scientific explanation of a system is to identify the mechanism by which a cause is connected to an effect.
Design is a mechanism. Agency involvemnet is another mechanism.
That involves answering the what, when, where, and how questions.
The what is whatever we are investigating. The "when, where and how" can only be answered by studying the design and all relevant evidence. IOW timmy, you don't know Jack about science and investigation.Joe
March 18, 2013
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Alan Fox May I recommend you to read ID Foundation series here on UD starting with https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations-the-design-inference-warrant-and-the-scientific-method/ It's time to go .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNezZV4648IEugen
March 18, 2013
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TA: Still unable to acknowledge that design by a skilled, knowledgeable intelligent designer is a mechanism demonstrably -- with billions of cases in point -- capable of creating FSCO/I, while blind chance and/or mechanical necessity have no such observed track record, multiplied by a major search resources challenge in a solar system of 10^57 atoms and ~ 4.5 BY or an observed cosmos of 13.7 BY and ~ 10^80 atoms? Telling. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2013
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Kairosfocus. Your treatise is very clear and extremely compelling. Thank you very much.Box
March 18, 2013
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Optimus, Thanks. Durston, et al speak of functional sequence complexity and have developed a similar metric pivoting on Shannon's H, the average info per symbol (in a context where symbols in an alphabet typically communicate different quantities of info), though they do not apply an explicit threshold value as I do. In my presentations, I have taken up their metrics and have shown how they fit with the thresholds I have used. There are others who say much the same, up to Dembski in NFL who speaks of how in biology specification is cashed out as function. Then there is what Wicken had to say way back in 1979, which is where I hit on the summary term from:
"organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’"
. . . and also what Orgel said in '73, bearing in mind that in biological contexts, function is how specification is expressed:
" living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity."
Just take these two key cites and the term, functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information -- FSCO/I -- practically drops out as a short-hand description. The problem is, it seems that in too many cases we are dealing with ideologues who do not care a whit about truth, reasonableness or fairness, so long as they can spew forth a superficially plausible dismissive assertion. That is sad, but it seems to be what we face. Those who run sites such as TSZ need to do some very sober reflection on what they are enabling. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2013
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Joe posted this:
Not so Mike. We have explaiend exactly where mechanical tendecies stop. Behe discusses it at length. Dembski, Meyer and UD’s members have also.
You and your ID colleagues have not explained it. You simply assert that there is such a boundary. Yet ID continues to offer estimates of when that vary from from "now" to "6000 years ago" to "4.7 billion years ago" (ask Bill Dembski about the when question), where varies from "wherever life first blossomed" to "the Garden of Eden" to "Mount Ararat" to "everywhere at this moment", and how varies from "every aspect of life is engineered" to "this obscure aspect of one version of life is the Darwinian Giantkiller". An essential part of a scientific explanation of a system is to identify the mechanism by which a cause is connected to an effect. That involves answering the what, when, where, and how questions. The questions that ID refuses to address.timothya
March 18, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Regarding your personal ID argument involving FSCO/I, I am not interested in pursuing it because it is currently solely your personal ID argument.
L I A RMung
March 17, 2013
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AF:
I was merely pointing out that the TSZ thread author (KeithS AKA thaumaturge) that you quote in your OP is no longer able to respond to you here and that you are welcome at “The Skeptical Zone” if you want to continue debating with him.
Strange. My own experience over at TSZ was just the opposite of what you claim KF could expect if he went there.Mung
March 17, 2013
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Why can I jump 3 feet in the air but not 300?
Jumping 3 feet in the air improves your chances of survival and reproduction, jumping 300 feet in the air does not (there's no chicks up there, in spite of what you may have been told). Ain't evolutionary explanations grand!?Mung
March 17, 2013
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AF @ 26
Regarding your personal ID argument involving FSCO/I, I am not interested in pursuing it because it is currently solely your personal ID argument. None of the prominent ID proponents that I know of, Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Nelson etc. appear to have noticed FSCO/I, none of them have commented on it that I have noticed and certainly no-one has endorsed it. The DI or Evolution News have not picked up on it either. Your argument is currently deniable as ID. I reiterate that nothing you write about FSCO/I has any connection to reality and specifically to biology. Repeated demands for some genuine computation of a real biological example meet with empty bluster. Colour me unimpressed. But I’m just a layman, maybe I just can’t spot the subtlety of your argument. Take up the cudgels with professional scientists. Try the Skeptical Zone for a start.
Signature in the Cell (by Meyer) argues quite deliberately from the presence of complex, functionally-specified information to ID. FSCO/I is not a construction of KF's imagination. You're badly mistaken on this one, Alan.Optimus
March 17, 2013
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OK perhaps blind watchmaker evolution isn't a blind search because it isn't a search at all. Whatever happens, happens and whatever survives to reproduce survives to reproduce. If something is found along the way then it's "oh joy" and then carry on.Joe
March 17, 2013
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and elzinga chimes in:
When one asks an ID/creationist where along the chain of complexity of atomic and molecular assemblies the “natural” and “mechanical” tendencies stop and “programs” and “information” take over, one never gets an answer.
Not so Mike. We have explaiend exactly where mechanical tendecies stop. Behe discusses it at length. Dembski, Meyer and UD's members have also. It's just that nothing we say is ever good enough for you. You think that stuff just emerges- how the heck can we test that, Mike? AGAIN- materialists have all the power as the rules of scientific investigation mandate that materialistic processes be eliminated before a design inference can be made. The point being is if you don't like our design inference, don't blame us. Our inference follows the rules of scientific investigation. And you have all the power to step up and say "Hey we can demonstrate materialistic processes producing what you say requires a designer", then we will actually have something to respond to.Joe
March 17, 2013
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Great, olegt thinks that blind watchmaker evolution isn't a blind search. He also told me that chromosomes are one long polymer called the DNA: Oleg sez:
Chromosomes. are. all. connected. It is one long polymer. Called the DNA.
Natural selection is blind, without purpose and mindless. It's just differential reproduction due to heritable chance variation. Having more offspring does not = producing the diversity of life. And natural selection reduces diversity anyway. It is obvious that olegt doesn't understand biology nor evolutionism.Joe
March 17, 2013
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Joe: Has OlegT bothered to read Orgel, back in 1973, in the text that INTRODUCED the term specified complexity and set up the modern discussion? Similarly, this sort of issue was addressed long ago in the foundation technical work for design theory, TMLO. For instance in Ch 8 there is a rather specific discussion of order vs complexity that is specified vs randomness using text strings and polymers or crystals. Let me cite Orgel:
. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [[The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189.]
That is, crystals insofar as they are specified, show mechanical necessity reflected in order, not an information rich pattern of aperiodic arrangements that lead to a function that relies on the specific pattern, as happens with say a protein. Insofar as we have crystals like star-shaped snowflakes, the complexity is separate from the specification, i.e. it is based on chance. What we do not have is function depending on the joint operation of specificity and complexity. Break a snowflake in two and you have two snowflakes, maybe less symmetrical. Break a program in two haphazardly, and it most likely will fail, as will similarly be the likely result of breaking a sentence. As for breaking a protein AA string . . . Of course, in principle we could manipulate the micro environment that forms a star shaped snowflake, and code information into it, say in the prong heights on the arms, similar to a Yale lock type key. But that is not what is usually happening. That is, the evidence is that we have ill informed or manipulative talking points used to indoctrinate those looking for just that, talking points to block having to address a significant issue that they apparently do not want to face on its actual merits. And all that stuff about oh you spoke at length, in that context, is irrelevant and distractive led out to being ad hominem. I answered to someone who after 8 years of making criticisms did not know "A from bull foot" (that's a Jamaican idiom) about basics, and gave him a personal tutorial. After this, I do not expect AF to make any assertion that he does not know what a configuration space is about, and why it is that FSCO/I is an index of design as credible cause. OlegT either has not bothered to find out the basics about how the design inference filter works on a per aspect basis, or is seeking to manipulate those who look to him for intellectual leadership. Whichever is the case, he has failed to do basic duties of care to get the facts straight and present them straight before speaking out critically. Sadly telling. Again. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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Strange, olegt seems to think that crystal growth and an issue for kairosfocus.Joe
March 17, 2013
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AF: It is quite clear that this is not a "personal" argument, but also that you are not in a position to understand what a configuration space -- which is linked to concepts common in mathematics and physics since Gibbs et al in C19 -- is. The argument is actually fairly easy to access, once you look at the simple case of an explicit string: * - * - * . . . - *, of length n. WLOG, we can use ASCII strings, with 128 states per position [or, binary ones with 2 states per position], as anything of consequence can be coded in this way, such as engineering drawing packages demonstrate. We then have a set of possible values, for binary strings, from 000 . . . 0 to 111 . . . 1 inclusive. The config space for such a string is simply the list of possible values, counted up. In short, to go concrete: imagine a very wide memory space, able to hold 899 ASCII characters per position, and then running from all zeros, counted up to all 1s. In a simple 3-bit case: 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111 Such a space would be easily searceahble by chance and necessity, but one that is 899 ASCII characters wide is of a different order indeed. For the text example used, with 899 ASCII characters, that is equivalent to a bit string of length 7 * 899 = 6,293 bits wide. The number of possible configurations is 2^6,293, or 2.41*10^1894 -- the number of rows required to exhaust the possibilities. Immediately, Houston, we have a problem. There are only 10^57 atoms in our solar system, and ~ 10^80 in our observed cosmos. Taking the latter, and allowing states to change every 10^-45 s, a generous estimate of the Planck limit for the fastest processes that have physical meaning, we are looking at 10^150 states in 10^25s, an estimate of the thermodynamic lifespan of the observed cosmos. (About 50 million times the time typically said to have elapsed since the big bang.) Our observed cosmos cannot scratch the surface of the possibilities, much less exhaust them or sample such a high fraction that it is reasonable to expect unusual clusters of configs to get captured in the sample. So, we have a serious observational limit for blind sampling. If there are special narrow zones in the space of possibilities (such as texts in English), on random sampling or mechanical processes, we have no good reason to catch them in our little solar system sized or observed cosmos sized cast net. This is of course the precise reason for the islands of function concept, it highlights that there are such zones that can be specified other than by citing the configs by listing them or the like. Overwhelmingly what sampling theory tells us to expect on blind samples -- even, fairly biased ones -- will be the bulk of the possibilities, i.e. gibberish. Notice, I have NOT made a probability calculation [that heads off many a side track in the debates over the years . . . ], I have only adverted to the issue of the challenge of blind sampling. How then do we so commonly see long texts in English? Not by blind chance or mechanical necessity or both, but by intelligent design. We know English and we compose messages in English intelligently. This is a simple, direct illustration of the long since abundantly demonstrated difference in capability of blind chance and mechanical necessity vs design. Also, observe, this is without loss of generality [WLOG]. Anything that can be symbolised as a nodes and arcs "wiring diagram" pattern can be reduced to a structured set of strings. Indeed that is how virtual realities and computer aided engineering drawings etc are done. So, once we have a case where we are looking at complex objects and objects that are functionally specific similar to text in English or computer programs, etc, the same challenge will hold. We simply do not have the atomic resources and the time available to search such out enough to have confidence that we are likely to hit on functional zones. And, it is not a reasonable thing to assert that almost any and any configuration will do in the relevant sense. We see that easily enough with English text and computer programs or circuits, but he same holds for protein fold domains, which on empirical evidence are deeply isolated in AA sequence space, was it 1 in 10^65 or so? It gets worse, when we consider that we need hundreds of types of specific molecules, correctly organised to function as a metabolising, self replicating automaton. Thus, OOL is the first and decisive hurdle for a blind chance and necessity model of origin of the world of life. So strong is the pattern that we have every reason to expect, that those who claim otherwise or imply otherwise, need to provide strong empirical demonstrations. Which, for 150 years almost, have simply not been forthcoming, never mind the screaming headlines we have seen from time to time and the confident manner declarations. There is every good reason to see that life based on cells is designed, per FSCO/I as a highly reliable sign of design. And once that hurdle is passed, there is no good reason to try to lock out design in explaining body plans onwards. But, but, but, what if there is a much larger cosmos than we have seen? The problem here is first that this is speculation not empirical science, we have crossed over into philosophy. In that discipline, every significant alternative sits at the table as of right, and is compared on comparative difficulties, and we have to live with diverse views. No methodological naturalism lock-outs and censorship, in short. (Not that such were ever justified in science . . . ) next, we are now looking at cosmological fine tuning, and that points strongly to design of a cosmos set up for life, with a designer with the skill knowledge and power to built cosmos or multiverse. Frankly, necessary beings are on the table, and thus eternal beings, thence the source of a unified cosmos order that exhibits every sign of mathematical design right down to the roots. Occam's razor starts shaving, and when the shaving is over, we are looking at a unified eternal mind with the power to build universes. Now, lastly, I see an "invitation" to go to where people who have shown every uncivil pattern of behaviour, threatening my family, trying outing tactics, defacing pictures they found, slander etc are given free course. I see utterly no good reason to immerse as much as a toe in such a festering swamp. If you cannot pull together the self discipline to engage on the merits, with a civil tongue in your head, by rules that would pass in a living room in polite company, I am simply not interested. I have seen too much, and had too much done; to the point where some of what has been done would be a police matter if it were done face to face. Such an "offer" is declined and cannot be a genuine and serious one, since you must know the issues and concerns I speak of. If your side -- as the track record shows -- cannot sustain the decency to behave themselves, that simply underscores the sort of concerns that Plato put on the table so long ago now, in The Laws, Bk X:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
In short, pardon, but your nihilism (and/or your enabling of such nihilism) is showing, and it tells sensible people that we should never trust such with significant power. Another reason to see that something is very wrong with the agenda we are dealing with. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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Alan Fox's response at @26 shows that he isn't interested in understanding ID arguments, and apparently he admits he's incapable of understanding them. It doesn't matter to him if KF or UB have presented incontrovertible arguments/evidence for ID and have shown it incontrovertibly necessary for life - because he's not interested in it. He doesn't understand it and isn't interested in understanding it. He dismisses them with a wave of his "it's just your personal view" hand. Apparently, all Alan Fox cares about is to sit on the sideline and cheer as experts on his "side" offer rebuttals he doesn't understand to arguments/evidence he doesn't comprehend, and aim negative comments at those who disagree with his experts. So, yeah, go on over to TMZ so Alan can cheer and snipe from the sideline about arguments/evidence he doesn't understand and can't be bothered to figure out.William J Murray
March 17, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Regarding your personal ID argument involving FSCO/I, I am not interested in pursuing it because it is currently solely your personal ID argument. None of the prominent ID proponents that I know of, Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Nelson etc. appear to have noticed FSCO/I, none of them have commented on it that I have noticed and certainly no-one has endorsed it. The DI or Evolution News have not picked up on it either. Your argument is currently deniable as ID.
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHHA Is that really your response, Alan? Really? Not that we should expect any better from you.
I reiterate that nothing you write about FSCO/I has any connection to reality and specifically to biology.
Do you have something better than your "say-so" Alan?
Take up the cudgels with professional scientists. Try the Skeptical Zone for a start.
LoL! That would be the last place someone should go to discuss something. First graders offer up better rationality than that ilk. And Alan is a fine example of the septic zone ilk. Colour us very unimpressed by the septic zone.Joe
March 17, 2013
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Regarding your personal ID argument involving FSCO/I, I am not interested in pursuing it because it is currently solely your personal ID argument. None of the prominent ID proponents that I know of, Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Nelson etc. appear to have noticed FSCO/I, none of them have commented on it that I have noticed and certainly no-one has endorsed it. The DI or Evolution News have not picked up on it either. Your argument is currently deniable as ID. I reiterate that nothing you write about FSCO/I has any connection to reality and specifically to biology. Repeated demands for some genuine computation of a real biological example meet with empty bluster. Colour me unimpressed. But I'm just a layman, maybe I just can't spot the subtlety of your argument. Take up the cudgels with professional scientists. Try the Skeptical Zone for a start.Alan Fox
March 17, 2013
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KF
Lastly, I do not control UD’s moderation and control policies, so I cannot say much other than that whoever Thaumaturge was, he had little or nothing of substance to contribute here. Had he been serious about substance, he could very easily have engaged this thread across yesterday, as he can still do from his preferred zone. (Not, that the track record says anything much, from what has been going on in the thread at TSZ all along. And, if he has indeed been banned, I am sure Mr Arrington can speak for himself as to why. I did note a warning that T was making no redeeming contribution to the blog by his ipse dixit sniping remarks.)
I wasn't asking for an explanation and I am aware of who the admin i here. I was merely pointing out that the TSZ thread author (KeithS AKA thaumaturge) that you quote in your OP is no longer able to respond to you here and that you are welcome at "The Skeptical Zone" if you want to continue debating with him. Of course, I don't expect you to but the invitation remains.Alan Fox
March 17, 2013
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Kairosfocus- It is obvious that Allan "looked at" ID arguments with his eyes wide shut and his head firmly planted [snip --language].Joe
March 17, 2013
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Alan- keiths couldn't take on anyone for anything. He doesn't have a clue about science and he sure as heck cannot support unguided evolution as he doesn't know what evidence is. And nice to see that you still don't understand the emaning of the word "default". It's as if you are proud to be an ignorant loser.Joe
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