Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID is not science because…

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ID is ineligible for consideration as science because theories that allow for the possibility of forces outside of nature can’t be tested or falsified.

In light of that let’s look at what Ernst Mayr had to say in the introduction that appears in “Origin of Species”, Harvard University Press edition, 1964, p. xii:

In Darwin’s day the prevailing explanation for organic diversity was the story of creation in Genesis. Darwin himself had subscribed to this when he shipped on the ‘Beagle,’ and he was converted to his new ideas only after he had made numerous observations that were to him quite incompatible with creation. He felt strongly that he must establish this point decisively before his readers would be willing to listen to the evolutionary interpretation. Again and again, he describes phenomena that do not fit the creation theory.

Huh. It appears like Darwin was testing scientific creationism and found evidence contrary to it.

So what is it. Is ID science or not science? It seems our opponents want to have their cake and eat it too by saying:

“ID is not science because it cannot be falsified or verified. And by the way, ID has been repeatedly tested and shown to be false.”

Comments
DaveScot, I'm grateful for your clarification. I confess not to understand the mode of design, for I've been unable to find it detailed so far. I cannot rise to your challenge, because the only model that comes to my mind of unsupernatural ID is the Raelians' version: extraterrestrial scientists using their (to us) advanced technology to create life. I'm sorry to ask you questions instead of answering your challenge, but that is necessary in order to be able to do so: Does the posited designer have hands? Test tubes? A whole laboratory at his/her/its disposal? What is the real-world meaning of "not needing supernatural abilities in order to create"? I thank you for your patience. StephenB, Science (as the mainstream definition goes) is the enterprise of building working models of reality, in conformance to the assumption that the laws of nature are constant. The mainstream expectation is for astrophysical constants to always stay the same, just as they expect sodium with chloride to always yield table salt. The Greeks did not write out a formal definition, but worked the same way (that is, they too assumed constancy of laws). Their details are not the same as modern-day one, because they allowed for spiritual existence. I did mention this change right in my first post. As for point D, I am not versed in Christendom, so I can't answer. As for point E, I never said it was a tautology, so kindly do not put words in my mouth.Avraham Barda
September 27, 2008
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-------The definition of science has not been hijacked. Science was always like this, [A] Define science (formally and explicitly) [B] Define the scientific method (formally and explicitly) [C] Provide evidence that the Greeks characterized both in exactly the same way. [D] Explain the meaning of the term "We are thinking God's thoughts after him," and tell us why that characterization did not reflect the sentiments of Christendom's great scientists even though they said that it did. [E] Explain why a scientific inference to design based on observation of data requires a prior committment to a designer and is, therefore, in your judgment, a tautology.StephenB
September 27, 2008
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AB Let’s be grown-ups here. I don’t assume you’re a Raelian (believer in UFO designers). I don't "believe" in anything without evidence and I have yet to see any evidence showing that the design of life on the planet earth requires supernatural powers. I challenge you to produce some evidence of life needing a designer with supernatual abilities.DaveScot
September 27, 2008
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“ID is not science because it cannot be falsified or verified. And by the way, ID has been repeatedly tested and shown to be false.” As pointed out many times here, due to human ingenuity in coming up with "just so stories" Darwinism can't be falsified either, (excluding finding sculls in Cambrian sediments) so it also isn't science by their own definition.magnan
September 27, 2008
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jerry, Actually, a transition from Newton to LaPlace in terms of restricting what can be assumed would tally with my thesis. Let me agree, then, that Newton was almost there (in adhering to materialism) but not quite as LaPlace, who was in today's position. Thank you for directing me. BarryA, Let's be grown-ups here. I don't assume you're a Raelian (believer in UFO designers). Even if we leave God out, ID by necessity assumes a designer above the cosmic order (unless, again, you are a Raelian, an assumption I highly doubt, according to the homework I've done reading thoroughly this site). It is the materialists' belief that everything, including the Big Bang, has some non-"poofing," non-magical explanation. Please do not attempt to curtail free speech here. Especially when you, rightly, complain that that is what the materialist establishment perpetrates on you. Upright BiPed, The definition of science has not been hijacked. Science was always like this, even if not down to the last detail. Science has its origins in Greek paganism, and is today a modified form of Greek paganism.Avraham Barda
September 27, 2008
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CN, The definition of science has been highjacked by a socio-political movement known as material reductionism. Materialism is a socio-political necesity because it supports an atheistic worldview (which is the stated and defended preference of those in control of upper academia). Richard Lewontin, the eminent author and Professor of Biology at Harvard from 1998 through 2003, is famous for his quotes. He states “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world , but on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes….Moreover, materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.” (emphasis mine) In making this statement he leaves little doubt about the certainty of the priori, and even less doubt about the establishment’s intent in preserving it. However, contrary to the definition that natural materialism is at the core of science, and contrary to the position that science must hold patent obsurdity as a matter of scientific principle, the core of scientific knowledge is instead - rationality. ID makes no pretense to turn away from material causes in the explanations of the universe or the living world within it - but only seeks the recognition that the empirical detection of 'design' has an explanatory potential that lies well within rationality, and moreover, that modern cosmological and biological evidence strongly infers necessity (design) over contingency (chance).Upright BiPed
September 27, 2008
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-----Dave: "So what is it. Is ID science or not science? It seems our opponents want to have their cake and eat it too by saying: ----“ID is not science because it cannot be falsified or verified. And by the way, ID has been repeatedly tested and shown to be false.” That is exactly what our opponents are doing and that is exactly what they are allowed to get away with.StephenB
September 27, 2008
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Avraham Barda, you are new here and so I won't be too hard on you. I'll just say this. Your comment demonstrates beyond the slightest doubt that you have not the slightest idea what ID's thesis is. ID neither posits nor requires an act of God or an irregularity in the order of the universe. Go do your homework before you post again.BarryA
September 27, 2008
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-----Jerry: -----"There is no agreed upon definition of science."............ ======"And we wonder why the debate gets confusing." Yes, and consider this. It is totally illogical to say [A] "I cannot or will not define science" and [B] "ID is not science." But that is what our adversaries do every day. Any long winded discussion that follows that is totally extraneous.StephenB
September 27, 2008
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Avraham, I will disagree a little. Newton thought God interfered in the orbits of the planets in various ways, one possibility being sending comets every now and then to stabilize an orbit. LaPlace started the God of the Gaps argument when he showed there was no need for God in his equations that explained why the orbits were stable. Ever since, scientists have been scared to suggest God might be doing it and generally they have been right as science finds the cause for most things. Evolution has proved a temporary or maybe a total end to their finding a natural cause for every major naturlal phenomenon. Welcome aboard.jerry
September 27, 2008
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CN, There is no agreed upon definition of "science." Threre is also no agreed upon definitions for life intelligence species These four terms which permeate the evolution debate have no agreed upon acceptable definitions and neither does the term evolution, micro evolution and especially macro evolution. And we wonder why the debate gets confusing.jerry
September 27, 2008
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http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/?p=200CN
September 27, 2008
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A few questions: What is the agreed upon definition of science? What actually is science? How does science relate to the scientific method? What is the scientific method?CN
September 27, 2008
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Greetings, new here. In my humble opinion, your blurb, in stating that "Materialistic ideology has subverted the study of biological and cosmological origins so that the actual content of these sciences has become corrupted," is in error. A pristine, uncorrupted, theism-friendly science as practiced by Galileo and Newton never existed. As someone knowledgeable in Greek philosophy and Hellenistic thought, I offer the thesis that science has always been subservient to a philosophy, one that has been inimical to Biblical creationism and intelligent design (in general, including Cicero's version; I don't conflate creationism and ID, there's a lot of overlap but ID can be non-Biblical) from the very start. The pagan Greek idea of the cosmos holds, that there is an order ("cosmos") that arches over everything, and is a closed system with no rule-breaking input possible. Even the Greek gods are subject to the rules of the cosmic order. Insofar as the Greek philosophers believed in the miracles of Zeus and other stories like that, they considered them to be possible within the cosmic order; which also decreed that gods were immortal and humans mortal. Proto-science developed in ancient Greece because the idea of the cosmos enabled it to develop. The mantle of science was reassumed in the Renaissance and reworked into what can be called a "restricted Hellenistic model", where the cosmic order is as absolute as before, but is redefined to exclude the non-material. If there has been a change from Newton's day to Darwin's, it was only in the restriction of the definition of "cosmic order"; both Newton and Darwin believed in unbreakable cosmic regularity, even if the former allowed spiritual existence while the latter had no room for such. Science is and has always been a servant of a philosophy that assumes there can be no outside input to break the overarching cosmic order. Newton had as much use for "God did it" as does any present-day scientist, which is to say, none at all. The modern aversion to intelligent design (or, as they call it, "poofing," magic," and other names of a derogatory nature) has ancient roots, roots going back to the pagan Greek originators of science. Those roots are both anti-Biblical and anti-ID to their core. You can't reform what has always been that which you call "corrupted". ID can't be conventional science; it can only be a new kind of science altogether. The basic rules must be changed. My 2 cents' worth. AvrahamAvraham Barda
September 27, 2008
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