Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Identify the Indian or Shut Up

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Long time followers of this site will remember that my grandfather used to collect small stones he called “arrowheads.”  He had the misguided notion that these small pieces of flint had complex and specific chip patterns that he attributed to intelligent agency, i.e., Indians making tips for their arrows.  Later in life I learned that my grandfather was deluded.  Scientists assure us that unguided natural processes are perfectly competent to produce even the most extraordinarily complex phenomena, and the “design” some people insist on inferring from complexity is merely an illusion.  And my grandfather’s misguided resort to agency to explain these chip patterns is an example of the dreaded “Indian-of-the-Gaps” mode of thinking in action.  See my post here

The other day I got into an argument with one of my friends who insisted that the literally hundreds of pieces of flint in my grandfather’s collection, each showing an almost identical chip pattern, could not possibly be accounted for by blind unguided natural forces like erosion.  I have to admit he made a fairly impressive mathematical case and I was beginning to waver.  But then my friends at Panda’s Thumb came to my rescue.  They argue that a design inference is illegitimate unless the person asserting the inference can also identify the designer.  I pointed to one of the stones in the frame my grandfather gave me (It continues to hang on my wall for sentimental reasons, not because there is anything special about the stones themselves).  I said, “OK, Mr. Smarty Pants.  If the pattern on that stone is designed, tell me who the designer was.”  He was, of course, stumped, so I declared myself the victor in the argument.  Yet another triumph for materialist reasoning!

Comments
Hawkeye, What if we found on Mars not arrowheads, but vastly complex, automated spaceship factories that can replicate themselves. Then we searched for a designer and found no evidence. Must we then consider natural causes?landru
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
10:43 PM
10
10
43
PM
PDT
Okay, the question at hand is whether we can infer design without evidence of a designer. I won’t dispute that we can make a couple guesses by comparing to things we already know are designed. But to confirm your initial design suggestion, you need to look for a designer. We know computers are designed because we know who designed them. We know arrowheads were designed because we know who designed them. We might not know everything about who designed Stonehenge or the “Baghdad Battery,” but we at least know that there were humans around at the time, and humans are the only agents we know that are capable of that kind of design. If, as Borne suggests, we were to find arrowheads on Mars, then that might suggest that someone was around to design them. And if we found such arrowheads, you can bet we would start looking for their designers to confirm that suspicion. If we could find no evidence of a designer, however, then we’d have to consider natural causes. Biological systems arose hundreds of millions of years ago. Humans certainly weren’t around back then, and we don’t have evidence of any other design-capable agents. My question, then, is twofold: How can you have design without a design-capable agent? And, assuming you need a designer to have a design, why do BarryA and others insist that the designer is outside of their investigation, when evidence for a designer’s existence would lend such strength to the design inference?Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
10:10 PM
10
10
10
PM
PDT
Hawkeye, "Cells replicate themselves with occasional modification. Computers have to be constructed in factories. Therefore we can’t draw connections between their origins." It's more than an "analogy" to compare a computer system with the DNA/cell system. But granted, a closer system would be a computer controlled CNC system that is programmed to reproduce itself. A cell is a small factory, with energy transport, component assembly, waste management, among other things, with lots of interesting components and actions, all quite "mechanical", and utilize an ingenuiously constructed digital code and rendering system to reproduce itself. Call it an "analogy" all you want. But it's something very much like a superior mind might produce. And you think it came to exist on its own? I call that insanity.mike1962
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
08:44 PM
8
08
44
PM
PDT
art Are you saying we have evidence that intelligence can produce biologically-relevant macromolecules? How about a whole working polio genome assembled via gene splicing using DNA fragments readily available from biochemical suppliers. http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/11_03/synthetic_genome.shtml Real science is awesome. Faux science like evolutionary biology is a snoozer in comparison. DaveScot
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
07:44 PM
7
07
44
PM
PDT
Hawkeye:"I can go out into a field and probably identify certain pieces of flint as arrowheads, but only because all the work of researching and confirming which flint patterns occurred in native cultures has already been done for me." Wrong. You assume too much (as do all Darwinists). 1. What if you found such stones on Mars? 2. What if you were an alien and found such stones on Earth without ever having seen a native? 4. What if you found something far more complex like a running machine with interacting coordinated parts working to some specific end - on some other planet? Answers: You would still be able to make the design inference. In fact in the latter case you would have no choice. Your arguments assume too much and prove nothing but that you have not reasoned deeply enough. All you are saying is that abductive reasoning works well, experience is a good teacher - but then you claim it is excluded from biological systems! Why? Because you don't want to admit that multiple, concurrent-processing, coordinated nano machinery can't assemble itself from randomly mutated "parts" 'lying around' in a cell. You have no grounds whatsoever to exclude abductive principles and design inference from biology other than personal prejudice. Both the evidence and logic are against your erroneous view.Borne
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
06:56 PM
6
06
56
PM
PDT
Acquiesce: Nope, we don’t need be able to identify the designer, only to know the discernable pattern left behind from their actions. Hawkeye: Only if we’ve already identified the designer.
We don’t have to identify the designer to know whether or not something has been designed. Intelligent design, when it comes to living organisms, is the inference to the best explanation. In fact it’s the only explanation at the current time for high information content contained in DNA. Intelligent agents leave behind patterns that natural mechanisms don’t. We don’t need to know ‘who the designer is’ or ‘how they did it’ or ‘for what purpose’. We can’t, after all, be sure who designed Stonehenge or how, or why – but we still infer intelligent design. The only thing we can identify about the designer is that it is intelligent.Acquiesce
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
05:16 PM
5
05
16
PM
PDT
BarryA said:
We already have evidence that an intelligent agent can produce a complex macromolecule.
??? Are you saying we have evidence that intelligence can produce biologically-relevant macromolecules? I'd be interested in seeing this evidence.Art2
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
05:11 PM
5
05
11
PM
PDT
H'mm: Hawkeye, you cannot demonstrate that every message in this thread except your own is not simply the product of lucky noise. There is nothing in physics or logic to forbid that. (Cf. my always linked for a discussion.) But, we all reliably, routinely, consistently and accurately infer from the complex, functionally specified digital chains in the thread that intelligent agents: Atom, Acq et al, produced them. Now, DNA etc are precisely the same sort of thing, and we know only one source for such chains in cases where we happen to directly know the causal story. On what basis do you reject the inference to design, without selectively hyperskeptically begging the question? In short, is it that you are inadvertently assuming that an agent could not be there at the origin of life etc? If so, why? Or is it that you are swallowing the grossly incorrect but commonly trumpeted reconstruction of the history and phil of sci that only causes traceable to chance or natural regularity may be studied under the label "science"? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
Hawkeye says: 1. “The ‘Contact’ transmission is certainly more suggestive of design than a pulsar, but one still can’t rule out natural causes without more information about the source.” 2. “I’ve heard time and again that IDists don’t care about the nature of the designer. But why not?” Response: 1. Do you really believe that purely random unguided natural forces can result in a code that repeats all of the prime numbers from 2 to 100? Surely not. You’re kidding aren’t you. 2. ID proponents are not “dodging the issue” when they do not identify the designer. As a scientific project, the methods of ID allow one to make inferences about the existence of design only. Statements about the identity of the designer and his/her/its purpose go beyond the mere existence of design and are therefore not scientific. IDists, qua proponents of a scientific project, cannot, therefore, make such statements. I have a personal belief about who the designer is, but it is just that, a belief, not a scientific conclusion.BarryA
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
04:15 PM
4
04
15
PM
PDT
I'm not entirely sure that the question from post no. 1 has been addressed; the word "interaction". Was not the original point that 'evidence' need not be literally seeing-it-happen but the fact that we (think we) know well the interaction between the original sculptors & the flint arrow-things, and yet we don't have, as far as I am aware, any suggestion as to what theinteraction is between any designer and any material biological system?littlejon
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
04:08 PM
4
04
08
PM
PDT
The evidence may be pointing in several different directions, but “design” currently isn’t a strong one.
Actually it is the strongest one we have, due to the empirical fact that intelligent agents HAVE been observed designing symbolically coded, autonomous, complex, rule-based machines. We have never observed any other cause capable of creating such machines. (This includes any unguided cause you choose, whether Darwinian or otherwise.) Therefore, intelligence (ID) is very much the current front-runner. If we're being honest, it is the only runner currently on the field.Atom
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
04:02 PM
4
04
02
PM
PDT
BarryA: Now compare that to the EM pulses in the movie “Contact.” Upon examination these pulses turned out to by symbols for every prime number between two and one hundred. Thus, they were both specific AND complex. And this gave rise to an inescapable design inference even though the astronomers had no idea who the designer of the pulses was or what his/her/its purpose was.
The "Contact" transmission is certainly more suggestive of design than a pulsar, but one still can't rule out natural causes without more information about the source. (Otherwise, why would Jodie Foster have to go through the wormhole? ;-) ) I've heard time and again that IDists don't care about the nature of the designer. But why not? If I went to Mars and found something that looked like a hammer, I'd sure as shootin' want to know how it got there. The only answer I can ascertain is that you haven't been able to find any evidence of a designer apart from the supposed "design," so you're dodging the question.
Foxfier: So… you believe that it’s made by man because someone told you it was? You haven’t responded to the Stone Henge question, I notice.
First, there's a difference between drawing from the store of our collective knowledge and taking some guy's word completely on faith. Second, I don't know what you're asking about Stonehenge. We have evidence of the "designers" there, too. (Although we admittedly know less about who they were and how they built it.)
mike1962: Computers contain code and sophisticated processors to express the code. Cells and DNA have code and sophisticated processors to express the code. Therefore cells are designed by someone with at least as much insight as humans. Case closed.
Cells replicate themselves with occasional modification. Computers have to be constructed in factories. Therefore we can't draw connections between their origins. Analogy =! evidence. Case very much still open.
Atom: Wow, we do??? Really? I must have missed something. Last time I checked, most scientists admitted they were still pretty clueness about how life originated…
I said we have evidence, not definitive answers. The evidence may be pointing in several different directions, but "design" currently isn't a strong one.Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
03:51 PM
3
03
51
PM
PDT
Similarly, we have evidence for natural origins of life...
Wow, we do??? Really? I must have missed something. Last time I checked, most scientists admitted they were still pretty clueness about how life originated...Atom
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Hawkeye: "Similarly, we have evidence for natural origins of life, and no evidence for the interactions of an Intelligent Designer." Computers contain code and sophisticated processors to express the code. Cells and DNA have code and sophisticated processors to express the code. Therefore cells are designed by someone with at least as much insight as humans. Case closed.mike1962
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
Regarding the discussion between Hawkeye, et. al.: It's no mistake that Dembski titled his book The Design Inference. On the whole, after the better part of a decade and a half observing the debate, I consider advocates for ID to be much more forthright than Darwinists about keeping their inferences and their empirically-derived facts straight. For someone like me -- no scientist, that's for sure -- it looks like the discussions always run up against Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." For those who dislike relying of "faith" as the arbiter of such and important question: stay out of the jury pool. You will in all likelihood be asked to pass judgment on the life and liberty of a fellow human being based on evidence that is, for the most part if not wholly, pure inference.jstanley01
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
03:29 PM
3
03
29
PM
PDT
What evidence are you talking about then, because video cameras weren't made back then to video the arrowhead being made, and as you put it "I don’t need to see someone make the thing today as evidence they did in the past." So when you say "I need evidence that they did in the past" what evidence would be acceptable to you?Acquiesce
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
Acquiesce: Oh, so you don’t believe that intelligent agents made arrowheads, because you wasn’t there at the time to witness it? I guess this extends to the piramids, stonehenge, etc?
Acquiesce, please stop putting words in my mouth. Having evidence of something does not necessarily mean having to see it first-hand.Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT
Sure, I can go out into a field and probably identify certain pieces of flint as arrowheads, but only because all the work of researching and confirming which flint patterns occurred in native cultures has already been done for me. So... you believe that it's made by man because someone told you it was? You haven't responded to the Stone Henge question, I notice.Foxfier
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
Hawkey, the EM pulses from pulsars demonstrates the difference between information that is merely specific and information that is both complex and specific. The pulses from pulsars are specific. In your words, they are “regular.” But they are not complex. Anyone who inferred the act of an intelligent agent merely on the basis of regular pulses made an obviously false (or at least extremely weak) inference. Now compare that to the EM pulses in the movie “Contact.” Upon examination these pulses turned out to by symbols for every prime number between two and one hundred. Thus, they were both specific AND complex. And this gave rise to an inescapable design inference even though the astronomers had no idea who the designer of the pulses was or what his/her/its purpose was.BarryA
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:41 PM
2
02
41
PM
PDT
No, I don’t need to see someone make the thing today as evidence they did in the past. I need evidence that they did in the past.
Oh, so you don't believe that intelligent agents made arrowheads, because you wasn't there at the time to witness it? I guess this extends to the piramids, stonehenge, etc?Acquiesce
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:41 PM
2
02
41
PM
PDT
Here is a tricky one. Near Ingleton in the Yorkshire Dales the Ordnance Survey maps mark a motte and bailey ( Norman castle just after 1066). I had driven past it several times and thought it was an excellent example of a KAME - a mound of glacial detritus dropped by an ice sheet. In fact there are lots of similar glacial mounds in the vicinity. So what about this? Was it designed to be the motte of a motte and bailey by soem some Norman lord in 1098 or was it dumped by some undesigning glacier?Michael1831
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:32 PM
2
02
32
PM
PDT
Hawkeye wants to see the someone (a designer) make the ‘thing’ so he thinks arrowheads are fine (intelligent agents make arrowheads - so its ok to assume they did in the past).
No, I don't need to see someone make the thing today as evidence they did in the past. I need evidence that they did in the past.Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:31 PM
2
02
31
PM
PDT
Acquiesce: Nope, we don’t need be able to idenify the designer, only to know the decernable pattern left behind from their actions.
Only if we've already identified the designer. Sure, I can go out into a field and probably identify certain pieces of flint as arrowheads, but only because all the work of researching and confirming which flint patterns occurred in native cultures has already been done for me.
My question is this: Why won’t you follow the evidence of the overwhelmingly greater complex specificity of the information in the DNA code to lead you to a design inference that is just as reasonable if not more so?
I'm not saying the design inference is completely unreasonable, taken on its own. If you're looking for design, you'll probably start with things that look like what you already know is designed. I certainly won't bring home every lumpy rock from the field to see if it's an arrowhead. But that's only a place to start, not an argument in of itself. If you find something you think looks designed, the critical step is to look for a designer. Consider pulsars. When we first discovered regular pulses of EM radiation coming from space, some thought that it was generated by extraterrestrial intelligence. (The first pulsar was even initially named LGM-1 for "little green men".) But we didn't take the signal at face value; we looked for its source or designer. And what we found was that the "signal" was generated by a rapidly-rotating neutron star, a completely natural cause. Similarly, we have evidence for natural origins of life, and no evidence for the interactions of an Intelligent Designer. It i in the light of this later evidence that I reject the initial design inference.Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:29 PM
2
02
29
PM
PDT
Eh? Hawkeye wants to see the someone (a designer) make the 'thing' so he thinks arrowheads are fine (intelligent agents make arrowheads - so its ok to assume they did in the past). Thus when we as intelligent agents make complex macromolecules in the near future, that too (in his mind) will be fine (its then ok to assume they did in the past). I’m only taking his reasoning and showings where it goes.Acquiesce
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
Your analogy doesn’t hold at all. We DO know who designed and manufactured arrowheads, how they did it, and for what purpose; that’s why we can say they are designed. You are in correct. My grandfather spent many years collecting various flints, and there are five totally different units in his collection which, before it became illegal to have, none of the experts could agree on the use of. My favorite is the one that they say is either an arrow-stripper or a weight for a net. It's a rock with a hole in the center.Foxfier
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
Acquiesce, I understand your point, but I don’t agree with you. We already have evidence that an intelligent agent can produce a complex macromolecule. To use DaveScot’s examples: “intricate machinery and abstract codes that define them and dictate their behavior.” The universal experience of mankind from the beginning of recorded history to this moment shows that intricaite machinery and abstract codes do not exist in the absense of an intelligent agent to cause them to come into existence. In other words, there is no known natural cause for the construction of intricate machinery (Behe’s irreducible complexity) or an abstract code (Dembski’s complex specified information). Therefore, the very existence of intricate cellular machinery and the abstract code in the DNA molecule is evidence for intelligent design. I think your point would be better stated as: We will have DIRECT OBSERVATIONAL evidence (as opposed to circumstantial evidence) for design in living systems when we are able to produce complex macromolecules.BarryA
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
The Baghdad battery must have occured via natural processes. There is no way people could have understood electricity back then. Also, dating is apparently wide ranging, lending to the idea that we don't know who did it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Batterybork
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
02:03 PM
2
02
03
PM
PDT
Hawkeye:Your analogy doesn’t hold at all. We DO know who designed and manufactured arrowheads, how they did it, and for what purpose; that’s why we can say they are designed.
In the near future we will be able to create complex macromolecules, at which time your argument fails – we will have evidence that intelligent agents produce complex macromolecules.Acquiesce
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT
Hawkeye, OK, now that I know what you are arguing, let’s unpack your statements and examine them. You say your argument boils down to: “We need evidence of a designer in order to confidently infer design. With arrowheads, we have that evidence. With cell biology, we don’t.” What evidence do we have that arrowheads were designed? You answer that question. You say we can infer design when we find “chips and marks that are consistent with a [intelligent agent, in this case a human] having sharpened the flint.” I agree with you wholeheartedly. But the big question is this. What is it about those “chips and marks” on the flint that leads to a design inference? Of course, the answer to that question is what the ID movement is all about. Those chips and marks are both complex and specific, the combination of which tends to rule out blind unguided forces as the cause. The complex specificity of the chips and marks leads to a very reasonable design inference. The complex specificity of the information in the DNA code makes the complex specificity of the arrowhead pale in comparison. You follow the evidence on the arrowhead wherever it leads you and make a design inference that everyone would agree is reasonable. My question is this: Why won’t you follow the evidence of the overwhelmingly greater complex specificity of the information in the DNA code to lead you to a design inference that is just as reasonable if not more so? I will answer my own question. “Your metaphysical (not scientific) commitments don’t allow you to follow the evidence in the second case.”BarryA
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
Hawkeye: No, my argument boils down to, “We need evidence of a designer in order to confidently infer design. With arrowheads, we have that evidence. With cell biology, we don’t.”
Nope, we don’t need be able to idenify the designer, only to know the decernable pattern left behind from their actions. In forensics, a death could be natural or murder (intelligent causation), we have to be able make a decision, and this is done because intelligent agents leave behind a decernable pattern. We know this pattern, because we are intelligent agents. Life also shows this pattern and its reasonable to assume that this pattern is also derived from an intelligent agent.Acquiesce
July 31, 2007
July
07
Jul
31
31
2007
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply