Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

In a pickle about Adam and Eve

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Professor Jerry Coyne can’t seem to leave the Adam and Eve question alone. In a recent post, Professor Coyne criticizes Bryan College in Dayton, Tennessee, for requiring its teaching professors to sign an updated “statement of belief” which, for the first time, explicitly affirms the existence of an historical Adam and Eve. Since Bryan College describes itself as “a nondenominational evangelical Christian college named after William Jennings Bryan: statesman, orator, and renowned prosecuting attorney in the famous Scopes Evolution Trial,” this requirement should hardly occasion surprise. What would be surprising is if the college didn’t require its professors to believe in a literal Adam and Eve.

In a related post published late last year, Coyne explains in detail why he is convinced that science has ruled out the existence of Adam and Eve:

The facts first. Sheehan et al., building on an earlier paper by Li and Durbin (references below), calculated that the minimum population size associated with the worldwide expansion of humans out of Africa about 60,000 years ago was 2,250 individuals, while the population that remained in Africa was no smaller than about 10,000 individuals. For population geneticists, this is the “effective population size,” invariably smaller than the census size, so these are minimum estimates, and ones derived from conservative assumptions. The population sizes are estimated by back-calculating (based on reasonable estimates of mutation rates and other parameters) how small an ancestral population could be and still give rise to the observed high level of genetic variation in our species.

Note: 2,500 is larger than two.

This means, of course, that Adam and Eve couldn’t have been the literal ancestors of all humanity.

Evidently math is not Professor Coyne’s forte.

Note: 2,500 isn’t the same as 2,250.

Note: 2,250 + 10,000 = 12,250.

The math lesson is over.

Coyne goes on to say that even these figures are under-estimates: they represent “the ‘effective population size,’ invariably smaller than the census size.”

I invite readers to have a look at the following article by Luke J. Harmon and Stanton Braude, of Princeton University:

Conservation of Small Populations: Effective Population Sizes, Inbreeding,
and the 50/500 Rule

I shall quote a brief extract:

There is no such thing as “the effective size” of a population. Different effective population sizes help us to estimate the impact of different forces. The effective size you estimate will depend on the scientific question you are trying to address (Box 12.1). Estimating the appropriate effective population size is crucial in biology; in most (but not all) cases, effective population size will be smaller than the actual number of organisms in the population. Think for a moment about why
this is so. A conservative rule of thumb used by some biologists is
that N_e [the effective population size – VJT] is usually about one-fifth of the total population size (Mace and Lande, 1991). Using such a rough estimate is risky because N_e can be larger than the census size of the population, depending on the history of the population and the particular N_e under consideration.

It’s rather embarrassing when a biology professor makes mistakes in his own field, isn’t it?

UPDATE: A final suggestion for Professor Coyne. Coyne claims that the effective population sizes he cites are “based on reasonable estimates of mutation rates.” Coyne is assuming here that the mutations are natural and undirected. If Coyne wants to refute the Adam and Eve hypothesis as entertained by believers in intelligently guided evolution, then the question he really should be asking himself is: what would the effective population size need to be, if the mutations that gave rise to the human line were artificial and directed?

Comments
wd400:
The brilliant population geneticists are telling us ~100 mutations fix in each generation.
But, remember, NS isn't working. These are "neutral mutations". What does 100 neutral mutations buy you? If you respond that the mutations are there at the ready, then you are effectively saying that NS is there at the ready. But you can't invoke NS. So now what?PaV
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PST
wd400: Jerry Coyne tells us that 2,250 is bigger than 2. So, let's look at an effective population of 2. Here's what it looks like: 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/ .......ad infinitum. Is this what Jerry Coyne is looking for? Isn't it obvious that an effective population size of 2 is invisible? Isn't it clear the 'population' would have died off at some point? Do you think about these things? Or, are formulas sufficient?PaV
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
12:02 PM
12
12
02
PM
PST
PaV, Ne of 2,250. We assume neutral drift and not NS at play. How much time will it take for ONE!!!! mutation to become “fixed” in the population? Answer: 2Ne. So, 2 x 2,250 x 25yrs/gen = 112,500 yrs! This is a common error. It would take ~112,500 years for any given mutation to fix. But there many mutations in each generation. In fact, the fixation rate is equal to the per-individual mutation rate. The brilliant population geneticists are telling us ~100 mutations fix in each generation.wd400
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
11:31 AM
11
11
31
AM
PST
The derrivation of the forumlae for Ne are not straightforward, but are covered in many textbooks. It's not true, or even possible so far as I can tell, that Wilson and Cann though there would be more that one MRCA mitochondrial DNA (or Y-chom). How would that even work?wd400
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PST
wd400: Here's something to think about. Ne of 2,250. We assume neutral drift and not NS at play. How much time will it take for ONE!!!! mutation to become "fixed" in the population? Answer: 2Ne. So, 2 x 2,250 x 25yrs/gen = 112,500 yrs!!! So, just think what the brilliant population geneticists are telling us. That from the time than humans lived in Africa, only ONE!!! allele has become fixed, and only ONE!!!mutation within that allele!!!! What a great story of macro-evolution this is!!!! Would you care to respond?PaV
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PST
wd400, I watched the video of Dr. Robert Carter's presentation, and he obviously takes these calculations seriously. So, I think I should afford them more propriety than I have so far. Yes, they tell us something. And, yes, prima facie they point to a "population" and not "two people." But Dr. Carter makes clear that, from a biblical point of view, at least two factors must be considered when interpreting the data. The first is the Biblical Flood, which, in all likelihood (I'm not a YEC) occurred after the last Ice Age around 12,000 years ago, and also the Tower of Babel phenomenon, which, in secular terms would simply mean that primitive populations broke off from one another and became geographically, and reproductively, isolated. This alone could account for a large portion of the diversity and require us to view these numbers differently. I still stand by this statement wd400: "These equations are not 'truth statements.'" Even if a Christian like Francis Collins accept these data as determining for certain that "man" arose from a population of at least 2,250, he could EASILY be wrong, as others could. This is NOT EXACT science. Just because numbers are being dealt with here does not mean that they constitute some kind of 'mathematical proof.' They do not. They have to be understood properly. Their limits in scope have to be taken into account. Dr. Carter makes clear that under certain, perhaps reasonable, assumptions, these conclusions can be interpreted "oppositely" to how they have been interpreted. So, to say the least, leeway in interpretation certainly exists. Let me point this out. I ran some numbers for a population that 790 of the 800 generations, had a population size of 10,000. The first seven generations were less, and the final three were less. What was the effective population size? 793. Does this make sense? Not really. Why? Because since we're dealing with a sum, we can shift the last three generations to the front---the order of the sum (per the equations used) does not make a difference. This would mean that for 10 generations the population size was, on average (not harmonic mean!), 1,000, and then it was 10,000 for 790 generations! Think about this, wd400. Do you really want to tell me that random genetic drift didn't take place within a Ne of 10,000? Do you really want to stick to this claim? Think it through. Think about the size of the population, the mutation rate, the number of mutations entering the genomes of that population. Are you telling me that the amount of heterozygosity does NOT reflect a population size of 10,000, but, rather, a population size of 793? Is that what you want to tell me? IOW, everything in this discussion hinges on using the harmonic mean to establish an effective population size. And, so, the question then arises: how accurate is this assumption? And, a related question arises? Why is this formula used? And, then, one more question: What are the limitations of using this formula? And, now, let's remember a little bit of history: in the 90's, they went looking for "mitochondrial Eve", and were certain that they would find more than ONE such "Eve." But that's not what happened. Why did they believe this. Was it population genetics, or simply that they wanted to prove the Bible wrong? I think I know the answer. Then they went looking for "Y-Adam," again convinced that they would find more than ONE such "Adam." And they thought for sure they would find more than one because they were sure that the Bible was wrong. And what happened? Yes, indeed, only ONE "Y-Adam." Now it's "there couldn't have been just one Adam and one Eve because the 'bottleneck' shows the Ne as being 2,250." Darwinists have been wrong twice already. I fully suspect that when the final chapter is written, they will turn out to be wrong again---not wrong in the sense of coming up with wrong numbers, but in having interpreted those numbers wrongly. If Francis Collins wants to say, with Jerry Coyne, that we have "proof," that's his business. But I say, let's wait until more data are available, and more analyses done: then we can see where the science is pointing.PaV
March 11, 2014
March
03
Mar
11
11
2014
11:02 AM
11
11
02
AM
PST
wd400:
Again, if there had been a time in which the human population was 2 people in last million years these methods would detect it.
If those methods apply. That is the question and we say they do not.Joe
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
05:13 PM
5
05
13
PM
PST
The Mismeasure of Man: Why Popular Ideas about Human-Chimp Comparisons Are Misleading or Wrong - Ann Gauger March 10, 2014 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/03/the_mismeasure083011.htmlbornagain77
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
03:17 PM
3
03
17
PM
PST
"You said in your first post that you weren’t an expert in this field, and so it has proved." aka "You just don't understand evolution'. :)bornagain77
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PST
PaV, I really see no point in carrying this on. You said in your first post that you weren't an expert in this field, and so it has proved. I understand that in the scnarios you dreamed up the Ne (and so genetic diversity) would be approximately the same at the end. I don't know why I shuold care. Again, if there had been a time in which the human population was 2 people in last million years these methods would detect it. The rest is wild and whirling words. The idea that gene expression is important (polyphenism) is hardly new to evolutionary biology (Wilson and King famously suggested gene expression differences would be the principal differnces between humans and chimps in the 1970s). But gene expression differences are tehmselves driven by genes (regulatory sequences and tanscription factors and even fashionable but probably less important things like miRNA and DNA methyl-transferases).wd400
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
01:20 PM
1
01
20
PM
PST
Joe: That said we now know that so-called silent mutations aren’t silent at all. It all depends and that would affect the neutral theory. That's right, Joe. It's good that you're pointing this out. Now, the Darwinists---oops, the "evolutionary biologists"---have another conundrum they must face. It's never ending. As I say: "Another day, another bad day for Darwinism."PaV
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PST
Thanks, wd400:
Population size matters in neutral theory. Othersiwse neutral coalescent methods couldn’t establish historical population sizes. The special case in which population size vanishes in calculation is when we work out the rate at which new variants fix (or differences btweeen sister species accrue).
Yes, I was referring to the fixation of new variants in the population. So, given a starting population, in order fix a number of new changes occurring in, say, a genome over time, the size of the population would presumably be irrelevant? I'm not arguing over coalescent methods, just trying to make sure I'm clear on the fixation of new variants.
I don’t know why you would think neutral change was not evolutionary change. And neutral variants are alleles.
Oh, sure. It is all "evolution." As long as we are so loose with our definitions as to lump virtually everything that happens under the heading of "evolution." And then we engage in the deceptive (whether purposeful or negligent) rhetoric of implying that these evidences of "evolution" demonstrate the truth of "evolution" broadly speaking. Things like new body plans, new functional systems, new information-rich sequences. All of which are the real fundamental requirements of producing new life forms on Earth, and none of which -- by definition -- come about through neutral changes. This is the kind of muddled approach that leads many supporters to pound the table and proclaim the "fact of evolution!", even though none of the real fundamental questions has ever been observed or demonstrated. So, yes, we can call neutral changes "evolution." As long as we are willing to acknowledge that evolution in that sense really means nothing of consequence and is just a surrogate for some change, any change, an observation that something happened. We can use words like "neutral evolution" to try and bring the observation of neutral changes under the umbrella of evolution. But an objective review might suggest that, if anything, the existence of many neutral changes in an organism means that the organism is robust against substantive change -- a real life example of not evolving in any meaningful sense.Eric Anderson
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
12:55 PM
12
12
55
PM
PST
wd400:
Kind of… but it’s effective population size at the last coalescence that matters. And that size reflects the history of that population as well.
Really. Let's remember that all of this is sort of dreamed up. These equations are chosen for various reasons. That doesn't make them TRUTH STATEMENTS. But, as usual, you've missed my point. I gave an example to two scenarios for a population having 10,000 generations. One starts out small and grows quickly. Almost 10,000 generations later, per the equation (not "truth statement"),under the scenario I depict, the "effective population size" would be the very same as for one that started out at 28,000 and remained the same for 9,990 generations, but then was decimated, and had a population size of only 100 for the last 10 generations. Isn't it quite clear that this last scenario represents what is meant by a "bottleneck" while the other did not? Yet, basically the same numbers. Do you get it yet?
You don’t get it. The the coalescent method estimates Ne, the harmonic mean formula calculates Ne exactly under one variable (fluctuating population size). The FORMULA shows you Ne would be low in the scenario you dreamed up. If Ne was low the coalsencent estimator would recover that signal.
Look above at the formula for Probability of Coalescence. There are two variables: Ne and t=time. Now tell me, do they plug in a value of Ne and solve for time, or do they plug in a value for 't' and then solve for Ne? Maybe this will help you see things more clearly.
You wanted to make something of the fact the coalescent is based on a neutral expectation. But, in fact, if selection was operating on these variants the coalsecnt approach would make Ne even smaller relative to the cenusus size. If this quiblle was meant to save the literal adam and eve (the poitn of this thread?) then if fails.
You missed my point completely. So what if the Ne is slightly lower. It's almost meaningless since you can't look beyond it, and you have no way of knowing what, and how anything, happened. My point was that Darwinists casually jettison the "theory of evolution"=Darwinism, when it suits their purposes. IOW, prove "evolution" happened no matter what means you employ, and no matter what contradictions it erects. And, of course, this "proof" is, like 'beauty' (and anything else that is SUBJECTIVE!) only in "the eye of the beholder."
I’m not a “Darwinist”, I”m an evolutionary biologist. Adatation is real, and there is abundant evidence for the the operation of natural selection in genomes and in teh wild. Darwin’s ideas are still important, but 21st century biology is much more than Darwinism.
If you're an "evolutionary biologist", and want to move on from Darwin, that what, exactly, is the "theory" you employ? Can you explain this for all of us here at UD? Just exactly what is your theory. And, of course, since you've moved on from Darwin, don't bother mentioning random variation and NS, because that's Darwinism. So, give us your theory, please. And, I suspect it will take many years, probably decades, well after my death, before my notions will be prove correct; however, when you say "abundant evidence for the operation of natural selection in genomes," this would be better stated: "there is abundant evidence for the apparent operation of natural selection in genomes." I fully suspect that when the final chapter on all of this is written, we will discover that the genome 'adapts' itself to the environment, and the entire 'adaptive' process relies on information provided by the genome itself, and that NS---which is no more than lack of viability of an organism---is simply a by-product of the adaptive response. Nevertheless, that biochemical pathways can be turned 'on' and turned 'off' via the decimation of a population doesn't mean that this process can be used in a directed way for the building up of, let's say, 'new' biochemical pathways. As I've stated before, if a human being at age 5 can jump over a basketball, and at age 12 jump over a wheelbarrow, and at age 22 jump over an upright oil barrel, doesn't mean that at age 75, he will be able to jump over roof-tops. Do you get my analogy? P.S. I've stated over and over again, that if Darwin had titled his book "Origins of Adaptations," I would find very little fault with it. But 'adaptations' do not 'evolution' make!
I presume you mean “caterpillar and butterfly” not moth. But I still don’t know why you’d think that was a problem for population genetics.
I find it almost astonishing that you can't think this problem through. The theory of evolution, =Darwinism in various forms, tells us that genetic change within the genome can build up over time and result in the kinds of changes in phenotype that we see in the fossil record over time. And, yet, the EXACT, SAME GENOTYPE----NO GENETIC DIFFERENCES--is responsible for two, entirely different--hugely different--phenotypes, including different morphology, locomotion, feeding habits, and instincts. The unavoidable conclusion is that morphological changes CANNOT be simply equated to genomic changes. And, in the case of the caterpillar and the butterfly, this is so glaringly apparent as to make nonsense of the field of population genetics.PaV
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PST
wd400:
Indeed, neutral theory shows us that mutations with no selective advantage can eventually take over a population.
That's the propaganda anyway. But no one has shown such a thing. But anyway, thanks for the correction as I wrongly thought that most neutral mutations, wrt Kimura, were in non-coding regions. That said we now know that so-called silent mutations aren't silent at all. It all depends and that would affect the neutral theory.Joe
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
12:35 PM
12
12
35
PM
PST
BA77: Sorry. I was in a terrible rush at the time. I don't know how that error eluded me. I meant a worm and a butterfly, not a "moth and a butterfly." Sorry again. Wish I could edit that one out since someone might not read this post.PaV
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PST
There's a lot of comments here, so here are some brief and general answers. 1. Population size matters in neutral theory. Othersiwse neutral coalescent methods couldn't establish historical population sizes. The special case in which population size vanishes in calculation is when we work out the rate at which new variants fix (or differences btweeen sister species accrue). 2. I don't know why you would think neutral change was not evolutionary change. And neutral variants are alleles 3. PaV and others want to seem to want to pit neutral theory, and the fact most variants are not subject to selection against "Darwinism" as if onyl one can win. In fact, neutral nearly-neutral and selective models represent a contium. They simply explain the behaviour of genomes and genes and organism under different slection intensities. We can use what we know of biology to detect natural selection (indeed, neutral thoery provides teh null hypothesis for such tests) but we can also show that most genetic change is neutral. There is no conflict there. 4. The fact that most of the genome evolves close the neutral rate is certainly evidence that organisms can withstain mutations without fitness. That's one fo the good arguemtns for junk DNA, for instance. BUt again, that doesn't meant tehre aren't genetic variants that are subject to selection. 5 One factor often overlooked is that a single beneficial mutation must occur in multiple individuals, a certain percentage of the population, without which chance alone will result in the mutation disappearing from the genom Nah. Such "soft sweeps" may in fact be common. But nothng requires the same mutation to arise in multiple individuals before it is swept to fixation. Indeed, neutral theory shows us that mutations with no selective advantage can eventually take over a population.wd400
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PST
Typically, evolution is loosely defined as "change over time." Once you're bullied into agreeing that you believe things change over time, you are "baptised" as an evolutionist. The next part is that you're supposed to accept without criticism the entire corpus of just-so stories that range from plausible to hilarious. One factor often overlooked is that a single beneficial mutation must occur in multiple individuals, a certain percentage of the population, without which chance alone will result in the mutation disappearing from the genome. -QQuerius
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
09:44 AM
9
09
44
AM
PST
If evolution = a change in allele frequency AND neutral mutations do not affect allele frequency, then no evolution takes place with neutral mutations. However if you define evolution as descent with modification then neutral mutations are a modification and therefor evolution. That said not all deletrious mutations get eliminated and beneficial is relative. And with neutral mutations population size does matter wrt becoming fixed. The larger the population the less likely anything will become fixed. No one has ever confirmed Kimura's equations- not in the wild.Joe
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
08:40 AM
8
08
40
AM
PST
It is “evolution” only if every change is evolution,
By golly, I think you've got it. :-)scordova
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
08:26 AM
8
08
26
AM
PST
Thus, it became obvious most evolution had to be free of selection, if design appears, natural selection had to be mostly absent as a cause.
Right. But with respect to neutral changes, it is called "evolution" only in a loose (and, frankly, slightly deceptive) sense, because, by definition, neutral changes aren't causing evolution. At least not in any meaningful sense. It is "evolution" only if every change is evolution, in which case we have robbed the term of any substance. Evolution now means essentially "everything that happens", even if it doesn't affect the organism in the least.Eric Anderson
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
08:20 AM
8
08
20
AM
PST
The theory of neutral evolution came about based on the question: "is the diversity in a species due to natural selection or lack thereof". Then they began to explore things like Haldane's dilemma, the cost of natural selection (i.e. how many individuals do you kill off to maintain features). For example, with a genome of 4 giga base pairs, how many people do you have to kill off per generation to maintain conformity? If for example you have a mere 6 mutations per individual that deviate from a "good" configuration, every female human would have to give birth to 800 kids! Thus, it became obvious most evolution had to be free of selection, if design appears, natural selection had to be mostly absent as a cause. I provided sample calculations here at the bottom of the essay. https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/darwins-delusion-vs-death-of-the-fittest/ Were my claims novel? Hardly, I got it from the evolutionists themselves, but it seems they prefer to let confusion reign lest IDists and creationists put two and two together and realize selection doesn't much work as a theory of evolution.scordova
March 10, 2014
March
03
Mar
10
10
2014
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PST
Dumb question about neutral evolution: There are three basic types of changes: deleterious, beneficial, and neutral. 1. Deleterious everyone knows what will happen. 2. Beneficial can help the organism and be subject to selection. 3. Neutral is just that -- neutral to the organism and invisible to selection. It is argued by some that most changes/mutations are neutral. Let's assume for a moment that is true. Why then are neutral changes sometimes held up as an example of evolution? By very definition, they are neutral -- meaning they are, by very definition, not causing any evolution. Indeed, the existence of numerous neutral changes in an organism demonstrates that the organism robust against change. In other words, it is resistant to evolution. All of this follows rather naturally and, it seems, inexorably from the idea of pervasive neutral changes/mutations. Thus, at most, neutral changes are just that -- neutral -- and not relevant for evolution. On the other side, however, one could quite easily argue that neutral changes demonstrate that organisms can undergo significant perturbations in the genome and otherwise, while still not exhibiting any meaningful organismal change, and therefore neutral changes/mutations are actually evidence against the "plasticity" of organisms that is important to evolutionary theory. Thoughts?Eric Anderson
March 9, 2014
March
03
Mar
9
09
2014
10:11 PM
10
10
11
PM
PST
For neutral evolution, population size doesn't matter, correct? At least not in terms of having a particular change becoming fixed in the population.Eric Anderson
March 9, 2014
March
03
Mar
9
09
2014
05:28 PM
5
05
28
PM
PST
Hey wd400, You're Going the Wrong Way - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akwHYMdbsMbornagain77
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
08:19 PM
8
08
19
PM
PST
Response to John Wise - October 2010 Excerpt: But there are solid empirical grounds for arguing that changes in DNA alone cannot produce new organs or body plans. A technique called "saturation mutagenesis"1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12 None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans--because none of the observed developmental mutations benefit the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.htmlbornagain77
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
07:12 PM
7
07
12
PM
PST
Remember, the coalescent method they employ can’t look beyond the ‘last’ effective popoulation size. Kind of... but it's effective population size at the last coalescence that matters. And that size reflects the history of that population as well.
You have a starting population size, and an ending population size. That’s it. If you’re doing an experiment in the wild, or in the lab, you can keep track of all of this. But when they want to use molecular biology to go back in time, they simply back into these numbers. Ignorance cannot be replaced with exact equations—which is what you’re trying to do. Sorry.
You don't get it. The the coalescent method estimates Ne, the harmonic mean formula calculates Ne exactly under one variable (fluctuating population size). The FORMULA shows you Ne would be low in the scenario you dreamed up. If Ne was low the coalsencent estimator would recover that signal
How does this respond to my statement
You wanted to make something of the fact the coalescent is based on a neutral expectation. But, in fact, if selection was operating on these variants the coalsecnt approach would make Ne even smaller relative to the cenusus size. If this quiblle was meant to save the literal adam and eve (the poitn of this thread?) then if fails. I can find much joined-up-thinking in the rest of your comment, but in answer to your quesitons: I'm not a "Darwinist", I"m an evolutionary biologist. Adatation is real, and there is abundant evidence for the the operation of natural selection in genomes and in teh wild. Darwin's ideas are still important, but 21st century biology is much more than Darwinism. I presume you mean "caterpillar and butterfly" not moth. But I still don't know why you'd think that was a problem for population genetics.
wd400
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
07:07 PM
7
07
07
PM
PST
PaV, while I read with your whole article with interest, and was pleased, it was the last part of your article that really caught my attention, namely:
Here is the ruination of population genetics. The genome of a moth: is it the genome of a moth, or of a butterfly? Just mull that one over a bit. Two hugely different phenotypes and the EXACT SAME genotype. If it is genetically the same, identical in fact, than how in the world do you explain the huge phenotypic differences? I await a wonderful answer here.
I would certainly like to have a solid reference for that if you have it handy! :)bornagain77
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PST
wd400:
The bottleneck is the very small starting size. That means the population will have much less diversity that one that has been at the present stable size for a very long time.
You didn't answer the question. A "bottle-neck" OCCURS when a population's size changes drastically shrinks from one generation to the next, or if it fluctuates wildly over time. You simply want to call the small starting size a "bottle-neck," and no more. Remember, the coalescent method they employ can't look beyond the 'last' effective popoulation size. It's uncharted territory. You simply want to make the claim that this constitutes a 'bottle-neck.' You don't get to make things up. If you look at the formula for Ne, it's a summation. It doesn't show a sum of minus infinity to plus infinity, or even zero to positive infinity. You have a starting population size, and an ending population size. That's it. If you're doing an experiment in the wild, or in the lab, you can keep track of all of this. But when they want to use molecular biology to go back in time, they simply back into these numbers. Ignorance cannot be replaced with exact equations---which is what you're trying to do. Sorry.
Well, you got it wrong…
It's one thing not to understand an equation, and quite another to make an algebra mistake, especially when you do it in a hurry so as not to waste any more time than is necessary. But, in the end, who really got it wrong? You come up with an answer of roughly the inverse of 1/6, 15, and then say this is the effective population size. Does that number make much sense? No. Isn't the true Ne closer to 32,000 than it is to 15? No common sense employed. Just plug in the formulas. Follow the recipe. Recite the dictionary words. Here's an example. Imagine 9,990 generations of population size 28,000, then followed by 10 generations of population size 100. Now think of 1 generation of population size 100, which then increases to 400 in the next generation, which then increases to 1,600 the next, and then increases to 6,400 in the fourth, 12,800 in the fifth, and 28,000 in the sixth and all the following up until the ten-thousandth generation. Per the FORMULA, the second lineage would have a higher Ne, but both would be about the same. Now tell me, WHERE did the "bottle-neck" take place? You have no idea mathematically, and if you ventured to say the bottleneck occurred in the first generation, you'd be off by almost 10,000 generations! Do I make myself clear?
It’s not sillyness, and you yourself started by trying to use the tools to save the literal Adam and Eve.
I used the tools so as to point out their limitations, something you don't want to accept.
Ok, what do you think would happen to an esimtate of population size if natural selection was operating (which it is not, in most of the genome). Selection means fewer members of population contribute to the next generation than would otherwise be the case, so selection (positive or negative) makes Ne lower with repsect to the census population. In fact – scans of lowered Ne are one of means by which we can estimate historical selection.
How does this respond to my statement. I'm sure population geneticists have plenty of toys. Look, face it, the methods employed are for the vast majority of the time are educated guesses and nothing more. Before gel-phoresis methods, Darwinists were sure that there would be very few sites where SNPs would be found. Wrong. Very Wrong. And they were using the very same logic you applied in the paragraph above. But why should that slow down a Darwinist?
“Darwinists” are largely the invention of creationists.
A Darwinist is someone who believes in DARWIN'S theory of evolution. Do you believe in that theory, or not? A "creationist" is largely the invention of Darwinists. I stopped telling people I wasn't a "Creationist" but got tired of having to do it over and over. "Creationist", with a small letter, is nothing more than the attempt by Darwinists to lump anyone who disagrees with Darwin's theory into the same camp as those who take the first six days of 'Creation' to mean six literal solar days. When it is objected that the person doesn't believe that, then the Darwinist simply switches from 'upper case' Creationist to 'lower case' creationist. Now I believe that God created the world. I'm sure that Ken Miller also believes that God created the world. He simply believes that God used NS and such in bringing the full diversity of life into being. But I'm not afforded such leeway. Why? Because, whereas Ken Miller accepts Darwin's theory, I do not. So that doesn't make him a 'creationist' while it does me. So, the basic meaning of 'creationist' has really nothing at all to do with what one "believes" religiously, but, rather, whether or not one "believes" in Darwinism. IOW, you ERR in calling me a creationist---along with many others. But I DON'T ERR in calling you a Darwinist----unless, of course, you want to tell everyone here and elsewhere that you really don't believe in Darwin's theory.
If someone can’t understand that modern evolutioary biology includes more than just natural selecton then they certainly don’t know what they’re talking about.
Many attempts have been made to understand genetics, some employ NS and some genetic drift, which has long been recognized as playing some role. But if you eliminate NS ENTIRELY, then Darwin is dead, and, guess what, then there is no longer any THEORY. What other theory of evolution has been proposed, exactly (not just some mechanism, but a full-blown theory. The only one I'm aware of is Margolis' and now that of Shapiro) Let me ask you a question, did Mendel believe in Darwinism, or not? Did Mendel believe in God, or not? Did he believe that God created the world, or not? Was Mendel a 'creationist'? IOW, it was a religious person who was behind all of what you want to promote as sensible science. Here is the ruination of population genetics. The genome of a moth: is it the genome of a moth, or of a butterfly? Just mull that one over a bit. Two hugely different phenotypes and the EXACT SAME genotype. If it is genetically the same, identical in fact, than how in the world do you explain the huge phenotypic differences? I await a wonderful answer here.PaV
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PST
You just don't understand evolution wd400! :)bornagain77
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
10:56 AM
10
10
56
AM
PST
If a population is steadily increasing, and then reaches some stabalized level, then please explain how you can then speak of a “bottle-neck.” The bottleneck is the very small starting size. That means the population will have much less diversity that one that has been at the present stable size for a very long time. I study quantum mechanics. Do you think something as simple as an harmonic mean is going to through me for a loop? Please. Well, you got it wrong... To say that these types of equations constitute disproof of Adam and Eve is just silliness. Science isn’t God. It's not sillyness, and you yourself started by trying to use the tools to save the literal Adam and Eve. Of course someone cen beliefe in a lieteral Adam and Eve, but you can't pretend the genetic evidence supports such a couple. And, again, should I point out to you that this method involves RGD which, as you should know, prescinds NS; so think about what you’re saying: human populations arose through completely random methods. This is an absurd scientific statement on its face. And, where, exactly, should we be looking for Darwinism here? Ok, what do you think would happen to an esimtate of population size if natural selection was operatin (which it is not, in most of the genome). Selection means fewer members of population contribute to the next generation than would otherwise be the case, so selection (positive or negative) makes Ne lower with repsect to the census population. In fact - scans of lowered Ne are one of means by which we can estimate historical selection. Darwinists are wonderful. When it suits their purpose, they abandon their theory, and then tell others who dispute the theory that they don’t know what they’re talking about. "Darwinists" are largely the invention of creationists. Evlutoinary biologists undertand that much of the variation in our genome can be best explained by neutral theory, other parts by selection. If someone can't understand that modern evolutioary biology includes more than just natural selecton then they certainly don't know what they're talking about.wd400
March 8, 2014
March
03
Mar
8
08
2014
10:05 AM
10
10
05
AM
PST
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply