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In defense of Swamidass

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After reading Dr. Cornelius Hunter’s panning of Professor S. Joshua Swamidass’s recent article, Evidence and Evolution, I figured the professor must have written a truly awful piece. Nevertheless, I decided to go back and have a look at his article. And I’m very glad I did. Swamidass’s article was irenic in tone, easy to follow, deeply learned, and absolutely right.

Professor Swamidass’s olive branch

What Professor Swamidass was attempting to do in his article was to extend an olive branch to creationists. Nowhere in the article did he belittle or ridicule his opponents, and there was not a trace of the smug superiority which many scientists display, when talking to creationists. Indeed, he bent over backwards to be accommodating:

If we allow for God’s intervention in our history, it is possible we do not share a common ancestor with apes. Adding God into the picture, anything is possible…

Of course, adding God back into the picture, anything could have happened. An omnipotent God could have created us 6,000 years ago…

Of course, the scientific account is not the whole story. It is an open theological question how to complete the scientific account, and theological debate surrounding this question is important and engaging. One thing all should agree on; we humans are certainly more than just apes.

Nowhere in his article did Professor Swamidass argue that evolution is true, or that God made human beings via an evolutionary process. Instead, he attempted to show that the scientific evidence (taken on its own) supports human evolution, before concluding that if humans did not evolve, then theologians need to address this evidence:

Currently, it appears that, for some reason, God chose to create humans so that our genomes look as though we do, in fact, have a common ancestor with chimpanzees

It would have been very easy for God to design humans with genomes that were obviously different than apes, and clearly not a product of evolution. From some reason, He did not. He did not even make us as different from chimpanzees as mice are from rats. Why not?

Let me note for the record that young-earth creationist Todd Wood asked exactly the same question in a recent review of Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross’s revised 2015 edition of their book, Who Was Adam?:

Why do humans and chimps share such similar genomes, while the genomes of rats and mice differ so dramatically (see Mouse Genome Sequencing Consortium 2002)? What is the basis of the pattern of similarity (Wood 2006)?

…Similarity requires explanation, regardless of whether it’s similar genes or similar intergenic DNA.

Professor Swamidass draws no conclusions in his article; he merely poses a legitimate question which creationists have also wondered about. He certainly sounds like a very fair-minded man. I should add that Swamidass is a practicing Christian as well as a trained scientist. At the very least, his article warrants a courteous and carefully argued response. I regret to say that Dr. Hunter’s reply fails on this count: it is misinformed (as I’ll show below), polemical and curtly dismissive in tone, as the following extract shows:

The evolutionist has just made an unbeatable (and unfalsifiable) argument.

This is not science. Swamidass’ claim about what is and isn’t likely “without common descent” is not open to scientific scrutiny…

If Swamidass is correct then, yes, of course, the genomic data must be strong evidence for common ancestry. But it all hinges on his metaphysics. This is not about science. It never was.

Like that old baseball card, it’s just another worthless argument.

“Worthless argument”? Professor Swamidass deserves a better hearing than that.

Dr. Hunter’s criticisms of Professor Swamidass’s argument

Dr. Hunter’s failure to address the scientific evidence for common descent

Amazingly, Dr. Hunter manages to completely ignore the scientific evidence for evolution presented in Professor Swamidass’s article. Instead of addressing this evidence, he confines himself to quoting just two sentences from the article. Here’s the scientific evidence for human evolution, summarized by Swamidass, which Dr. Hunter overlooked:

In particular, be sure to check out the links to Dr. Dennis Venema’s more complete explanations of the evidence for the general public: common ancestry and genetic similarity (parts 1, 2, 3, and 4), synteny (parts 1 and 2), pseudogenes (parts 1 and 2), egg yolk (parts 1, 2, 3, and 4) and hominid evolution (hominid genetics and chromosome 2).

Evidence for human evolution: we have remnants of genes for making egg yolks

Here’s just one intriguing piece of evidence for common ancestry, which Dr. Dennis Venema writes about in a series of articles linked to by Professor Swamidass. Unfortunately, this evidence is never even mentioned by Dr. Hunter in his article:

Vitellogenins are large proteins used by egg-laying organisms to provide a store of nutrition to their embryos in egg yolk. Since vitellogenins are so large, they are a good source of amino acids when digested (proteins are made of amino acids linked together). Many of the amino acids in vitellogenins have sugars attached to them as well, so they also serve as a source of carbohydrates. The three-dimensional shape of vitellogenin proteins also acts as a carrier for lipids. As such, vitellogenins can be synthesized in the mother and transferred to the yolk as a ready-made supply of amino acids, sugars, and lipids for the developing embryo.

Placental mammals, on the other hand, use a different strategy for nourishing their embryos during development: the placenta. This connection between the mother and embryo allows for nutrient transfer right up until birth. As such, there is no need for vitellogenins, or storing up a supply in the egg yolk for the embryo to use. Evolutionary biology predicts that placental mammals descend from egg-laying ancestors, however – and one good line of evidence in support of that hypothesis (among many) is that placental mammals, humans included, have the remains of vitellogenin gene sequences in their genomes.

Dr. Hunter: we can’t say what God would or wouldn’t do

Dr. Hunter’s response to such arguments is to cry foul, on the grounds that such an argument involves an appeal to metaphysics:

A scientist cannot know that something is unlikely “without” his theory. That implies knowledge of all other possible theories. And that knowledge does not come from science.

I disagree. The scientific case for human evolution doesn’t need to specify what a Designer would or wouldn’t do. All it says is that if the Designer of life has no special reason to make X, and we discover X, then X should count as a surprising fact – and hence, a prima facie improbable one. On a special creationist account of human origins, there is absolutely no reason to expect that humans would have what appear to be the remains of genes used for making egg yolks in their DNA – just as there is no particular reason to expect that humans would be more genetically similar to chimps than rats are to mice – or for that matter, than foxes are to wolves, or horses are to donkeys. And let’s remember that most creationists consider horses and donkeys to be members of the same “kind,” just as they consider foxes and wolves to be members of the same kind, and of course, rats and mice as well (see here for a detailed discussion of kinds by Dr. Jean Lightner, from Answers in Genesis. Reasoning on Bayesian grounds, these striking and singular facts have a high probability on the hypothesis of common descent, but are surprising (and hence improbable) on a hypothesis of separate creation. One can only conclude that these facts lend scientific support to the hypothesis of common descent.

Can evolution account for the fact that humans and chimps are genetically much more similar than mice and rats?

Dr. Hunter also faults Professor Swamidass for claiming that the similarity of human and chimpanzee genomes was “predicted by common ancestry,” and that the recent scientific discovery that “humans are about 10 times more genetically similar to chimpanzees than mice are to rats” was “just as predicted by the fossil record.” Hunter replies:

First, the high chimp-human genomic similarity was not predicted by common ancestry. No such prediction was made and no such prediction is required by common ancestry. Common ancestry would be just fine with very different levels of similarity than 98-99%…

Second, Swamidass’ claim that mouse-rat divergence, compared with the chimp-human divergence, is “just as predicted by the fossil record” is also blatantly false…

In fact, before the rat genome was determined, evolutionists predicted it would be highly similar to the mouse genome.

What Dr. Hunter omits to mention is that Professor Swamidass attached a lengthy footnote, which supplies the context for his remarks about rats and mice:

A common lawyerly objection to this evidence is that these similarities are “equally” explained by common “design.” As scientists, our response to this objection is data. Many modern creationists think that the genetic evidence shows that mice and rats share a common ancestor, even though they are 10 times less similar than humans are to chimpanzees. Starting from the genetic evidence, why is it hard to believe chimpanzees and humans are related (less than 1.5% codons different), when we readily accept mice and rats are related (more than 15% different)? Of course, on the outside, not looking at our genomes, humans are very different than chimpanzees, much more different than mice are from rats. Common ancestry predicts this discrepancy between function and genetics by recognizing that genomes are better explained by evolutionary history than readily observable differences between species; mice and rats are more different because they changed more quickly (because of their shorter generation time) for a longer period of time than humans and chimpanzees. What design principle can explain why humans are 10 times more similar to chimpanzees than mice are to rats? No one knows.

While Dr. Hunter is correct in pointing out that the hypothesis of that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor, taken by itself, implies nothing about their degree of genetic similarity, he neglects to mention that scientists routinely make use of molecular clocks in order to determine when two species (A and B) diverged, based on their degree of genetic similarity. They do this by using the fossil record to determine independently when two other species (X and Y) diverged, and comparing the divergence between X and Y with that between A and B, in order to calculate the date when species A and B diverged. The basic idea here is that nucleotide sequences in DNA change over time at a rate which is roughly constant across all species, as predicted by Motoo Kimura’s neutral theory of evolution, which, as Professor P.Z. Myers explains in a 2014 blog post, has been vindicated over “selectionist” theories (which categorized mutations as either advantageous or disadvantageous) by the experimental evidence:

First thing you have to know: the revolution is over. Neutral and nearly neutral theory won. The neutral theory states that most of the variation found in evolutionary lineages is a product of random genetic drift. Nearly neutral theory is an expansion of that idea that basically says that even slightly advantageous or deleterious mutations will escape selection — they’ll be overwhelmed by effects dependent on population size. This does not in any way imply that selection is unimportant, but only that most molecular differences will not be a product of adaptive, selective changes…

When comparing the rates of change between homologous genes in different species, we had a bit of a surprise: they are very roughly, sloppily constant. That shouldn’t be true under pure selection theory, but it turns out to make a lot of sense under nearly neutral theory. There is a tradeoff in the rate of mutations occurring, and in becoming fixed in a population. A very large population size will accumulate more mutations purely by chance, but the probability of a single mutation becoming fixed in the population is reduced under large population sizes. When you do the math, you discover that population size cancels out, and the frequency of novel forms becoming fixed over time is dependent solely on the mutation rate.

Think about that. If you compare two species, the number of nucleotide differences between them is basically going to be simply the mutation rate times the number of generations separating them from their last common ancestor. That’s how we can use a molecular clock to date the time of divergence of two lineages.

Professor Soojin Yi (School of Biology, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta) provides a helpful summary of how scientists use molecular clocks and what their limitations are, in a recent article titled “Neutrality and Molecular Clocks,” (Nature Education Knowledge 4(2):3, 2013).

So, what do the fossils show? Sahelanthropus (pictured at the top of this post), who lived around 7 million years ago, is currently considered to be very close to the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees (see this family tree for a summary of changes which are believed to have occurred in the human lineage). By contrast, rats and mice appear in the fossil record at least 14 million years ago, according to the Wikipedia article on Murinae (the subfamily comprising Old World rats and mice):

The first known appearance of the Murinae in the fossil record is about 14 million years ago with the fossil genus Antemus. Antemus is thought to derive directly from Potwarmus, which has a more primitive tooth pattern. Likewise, two genera, Progonomys and Karnimata, are thought to derive directly from Antemus. Progonomys is thought to be the ancestor of Mus [the common mouse – VJT] and relatives, while Karnimata is thought to lead to Rattus [the rat] and relatives. All of these fossils are found in the well-preserved and easily dated Siwalik fossil beds of Pakistan.

For more information on the evolution of rats and mice, see here.

Is the chimpanzee really the animal closest to us?

Left: A chimpanzee mother and baby, Baltimore Zoo. Cropped image, courtesy of Wikipedia.
Right: Orangutan, Semenggok Forest Reserve, Sarawak, Borneo, Malaysia. Courtesy of Wikipedia.

Dr. Hunter’s discussion of the difficulties attending the hypothesis of human evolution is even more disappointing. He begins by attacking the claim that the chimpanzee is the creature closest to human beings:

Evolutionists believe that we humans evolved from a small ape-like creature and that our closest relative on the evolutionary tree is the chimpanzee. The chimpanzee must be our closest relative, they reason, because the chimp’s genome is closest to ours, and according to evolution, genetic mutations are the fuel behind evolutionary change.

The problem with this reasoning is that the chimpanzee is not very similar to humans according to many other measures. There are enormous differences between the two species. Furthermore, in its morphology and behavior, the orangutan is closer to humans than the chimpanzee.

A quick point about the genetic similarities between humans and chimp DNA: they really are about 98% similar, as I argued in a post last year. What’s more, even alleged de novo genes found in human beings turn out to have 98% similar counterparts in chimps.

As regards Dr. Hunter’s claim that humans are morphologically more like orangutans than chimpanzees, I’m afraid he’s relying on out-of-date information here. Back in 2009, Professor Jeffrey Schwartz and Dr. John Grehan generated a brief flurry of controversy in the scientific world when they published a paper which listed 63 physical characteristics which had been verified as unique to humans and other great apes – chimps, gorillas, and orangutans – and discovered that humans shared no less than 28 of these characteristics with orangutans, but that they only shared two characteristics with chimpanzees, seven with gorillas, and seven with all three apes (chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans). Dr. Schwartz has long argued that our closest relative is the orangutan (from whom he says we diverged 12 or 13 million years ago), and he contends that the genetic data don’t tell the whole story, because most human-chimp comparisons only look at the coding region of the human genome. However, in 2010, another team of researchers (Lehtonen et al.) redid the research, using a much larger set of 300 anatomical features, and found (with a 98% degree of confidence) that the ape most similar to human beings was the chimpanzee, after all. Grehand and Schwartz hit back with a paper of their own in 2011, in which they argued that Lehtonen et al. shouldn’t have counted some of the anatomical features listed in their study, but Lehtonen et al. replied with an article showing that Grehan and Schwartz were guilty of logical inconsistencies in their methodology. In other words: evidence purporting to show that humans are physically more like orangutans than chimpanzees turned out to be highly questionable, and there’s no good reason to doubt that chimpanzees are the apes which are closest to human beings – although recent evidence suggests that the common ancestor of humans and chimps may have walked like an orangutan. However, I don’t blame Dr. Hunter for accepting the claim that humans are anatomically closer to orangutans than to chimps: at one point, I was taken in by it myself.

If even the evolution of proteins requires a Designer, how much more so does human evolution

Dr. Hunter continues:

According to evolution, you can’t have mutations occurring for some purpose, such as creating a design. And natural selection doesn’t help — it cannot induce or coax the right mutations to occur. This makes the evolution of even a single protein, let alone humans, statistically impossible.

In this passage, Dr. Hunter is alluding to the pioneering work of Dr. Douglas Axe, the author of the 2010 paper, The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds, which I blogged about here. See also here, here and here for follow-up comments by Dr. Axe and Dr. Ann Gauger, in response to criticisms. As far as I can judge, evolutionists have failed to mount a substantial challenge to Dr. Axe’s arguments demonstrating the astronomical improbability of certain protein folds which are essential for all living organisms having evolved by unguided processes. So I am in complete agreement with Dr. Hunter that human beings did not get here by either a chance process or by natural selection.

However, Professor Swamidass never claims in his article that human beings originated via a blind process. As I mentioned above, he’s a scientist who is a Christian. His sole aim, in writing the article, was to show creationists that there is a wealth of scientific evidence supporting the claim that human beings and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor. Nothing in that claim stipulates the mechanism whereby humans arose: it may have been a guided process or an unguided one.

The mystery of human consciousness

Next, Dr. Hunter argues that evolution cannot account for the mystery of human consciousness:

The incredible designs in the human body are not the only thing those random mutations have to create—they will also have to create human consciousness.

Evolutionists may try to explain consciousness as an “emergent” property that just luckily arose when our brain somehow evolved. Or they may try to explain that consciousness is really no more than an illusion. But these are just more demonstrations of anti-realism in evolutionary thought. Evolutionary theory constructs mechanisms and explanations that do not correspond to the real world. So this is another problem Swamidass will need to overcome.

However, nowhere in his article does Professor Swamidass attempt to argue that evolution can explain human consciousness. All he is endeavoring to demonstrate is that there is strong scientific evidence that humans and chimps had a common ancestor. Remember: the guy is a Christian, not an atheistic reductionist.

Can the relatively tiny modifications of an ape-like ancestor’s genome account for the vast differences between humans and chimps?

Dr. Hunter ridicules the notion that the morphological differences between humans and chimps can be explained by a relatively small number of modifications in their ancestors’genomes, when species that have undergone much greater genetic modification display far fewer morphological differences:

In recent decades the genomes of humans and chimps have been determined, and they make no sense on evolution. One of the main problems is that the genes of the two species are almost identical. They are only about 1-2% different and, if you’re an evolutionist, this means you have to believe that the evolution of humans from a small, primitive, ape-like creature was caused by only a tiny modification of the genome.

This goes against everything we have learned about genetics. You can insert far greater genetic changes with far less change arising as a consequence. It makes little sense that tiny genetic changes could cause such enormous design changes to occur.

Dr. Hunter’s argument is flawed, because he overlooks the fact that the vast majority of genetic changes are now known to be either neutral or nearly neutral, as explained above: they are product of random genetic drift, and they are mostly non-adaptive. By contrast, morphological changes (including the “design changes” referred to by Dr. Hunter) are often subject to natural selection, which means that they may be either beneficial or deleterious. Consequently, the degree of genetic divergence between two species tells us little or nothing about how different they are, morphologically. That explains how the morphological differences between rats and mice can be relatively slight, even though rats and mice are believed to have diverged long before humans and chimps (which are so morphologically dissimilar that they were placed in separate families until scientists discovered how similar they were genetically).

It has been calculated (Arbiza, 2006; Yu 2006; Donaldson & Gottgens 2006; Kehrer-Sawatzki & Cooper 2007) that a mere 340 beneficial mutations would have been sufficient to transform the common ancestor of man and chimp into a human being, according to biologist Ian Musgrave of Panda’s Thumb. (That’s 240 mutations in protein-coding genes and 100 in regulatory genes.) By contrast, the number of (mostly neutral) mutations occurring in the human lineage is thought to have been about 22.5 million. In other words, the neutral mutations in our lineage outnumber the beneficial mutations by about 100,000 to 1. The vast majority of genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees have nothing to do with survival, or evolutionary fitness.

Could 340 beneficial mutations have been enough to make us human?

Dr. Hunter is aware of this argument, but he doesn’t find it convincing:

Not only is evolution limited to tiny genetic modifications to create the human, but the majority of those modifications would have had to be of little or no consequence…

…[The authors of a 2005 paper on the chimpanzee-human genome comparisons] were forced to conclude that most of the mutations affecting protein-coding genes led to “neutral and slightly deleterious alleles.” So not only are evolution’s random mutation resources meager, in terms of both quality and quantity as explained above, but even worse, those mutations mostly led to “neutral and slightly deleterious alleles.”

That’s right. According to current evolutionary thinking, most of the mutations separating us from chimps were inconsequential, from a survival perspective. A relatively small number of changes – in fact, a mere 340 – made all the difference.

Now, you might be inclined to say: “That’s ridiculous!” Fine. My response is: prove it. You can’t just rely on intuition, because intuition is not infallible. To illustrate my point, consider a transition which dwarfs even the metamorphosis from an ape-like creature to a human being: the transformation from a land animal to a whale. Ask yourself: how many steps would have been required to accomplish this change? Biochemist Larry Moran has an answer for you: “Evolutionary biologists who have spent their entire careers studying evolution, genetics, and developmental biology are comfortable with a few thousand mutations causing the transformation from land animals to whales.” Crazy? That’s what I thought too, when I saw the figure. But if you do the calculations, it turns out that a few thousand mutations might be enough after all, for reasons I discussed in a recent post.

Is there any evidence for natural selection operating on the human brain?

Next, Dr. Hunter argues that the only evidence for natural selection in the human genome relates to relatively trivial functions like smell and hearing, and that there’s no evidence for natural selection operating on the human brain:

When evolutionists search for genes in the human genome that do show signs of selection, rather than neutral drift (again, under the assumption of evolution), they find only a limited repertoire of functionality. For example, one study found genes involved in the sense of smell, in digestion, in hairiness and in hearing. In other words, evolution is suggesting that we differ from the chimp mainly in those functions. It is a silly conclusion and another problem for Swamidass to explain.

Dr. Hunter neglects to inform his readers that the study he cited is a very old one: it goes back to 2003. What’s more, the study included an important disclaimer: “This study has focused only on protein-coding genes, and it will require examination of regulatory sequences to determine the contribution of regulation of gene expression to the evolutionary divergence between humans and chimps.” A more recent paper by Capra et al., published in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B in 2013, reveals that out of the 2649 non-coding human accelerated regions (ncHARs) which they analyzed in the human genome, about 30% (or 773) function as developmental enhancers, and that using a prediction tool known as EnhancerFinder, the scientists predicted that “251 of the 773 ncHAR enhancer candidates are active in brain development, 194 are active in limb development and 39 are active in heart development.” It turned out that among the validated enhancers, brain enhancers were actually the most common. So much for Dr. Hunter’s claim that the functions identified by scientists in which humans differ from chimps mainly relate to the sense of smell, digestion, hairiness and hearing.

A molecular clock that ticks at different rates in different regions of the human genome

But Dr. Hunter has more up his sleeve. This time, he quotes from a paper dating back to 2005, which found that nucleotide divergence rates are not constant across the human genome. In other words, the molecular clock ticks at a different rate at different places:

That 2005 paper also found a host of chimp-human comparisons that are nonsensical on evolution… For example, if you look at large segments of DNA, which are corresponding in the human and the chimp, you find unexplainable variations in the chimp-human differences…The usual explanatory devices do not work, so evolutionists are left only with the claim that local variations in the mutation rate did it—which amounts to special pleading…

Hang on a minute. How big are the differences we’re talking about here? Are we talking about a ten-fold difference between divergence rates across the genome? Nope. Not even close. A five-fold difference, perhaps? Wrong again. To see what Dr. Hunter is talking about, take a look at this graph. It shows that the overall difference between human and chimp DNA is about 1.2%. If we compare different chromosomes, we find that the difference is slightly higher on some chromosomes than others. And that’s all. If we look at the median figures for chromosome pairs 1 to 22, we find that the genetic difference between humans and chimps varies from about 1.1% to a little under 1.4%. The authors were a little surprised that there was even that much variation, and they wrote: “The average divergence in 1-Mb segments [of the genome – VJT] fluctuates with a standard deviation of 0.25%, which is much greater than the 0.02% expected assuming a uniform divergence rate.” To recap: the study’s authors reported that the mean divergence between human and chimp DNA is 1.2%, and if the molecular clock ticked at a uniform rate across the genome, then the authors would have expected relatively slight variations in this divergence. Instead, they found fluctuations with a standard deviation of 0.25%, which is still insignificant compared to the mean divergence of 1.2%. In other words: so what? Dr. Hunter is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Local variations in the genetic divergence rate between humans and chimps

Dr. Hunter continues:

The supposed divergence rate between chimps and humans not only has an unexplainable variation in large, 1-Mb segments of DNA, it also has an unexplainable variation towards the ends of most chromosomes. This is another problem that seems to make no sense on evolution, which Swamidass must explain.

But that’s not all.

This supposed divergence rate between chimps and humans also has an unexplainable variation that correlates with chromosomal banding. Again, this makes no sense on evolution. Why should the chimp-human divergence vary with the banding pattern? Evolutionists have only just-so stories to imagine why this would have happened, and it is another problem for Swamidass to address.

So, how much of a variation are we talking about here? If we look at the graph provided by the authors of the study, we see that even near telomeres (the ends of chromosomes), the level of divergence between human and chimp DNA never gets above 2.1%, and elsewhere in the genome, it never falls below 1.0%. In other words, we’re talking about a two-fold variation in the rate at which the molecular clock ticks, in the worst possible case. Earth-shattering, isn’t it?

Dr. Hunter wonders why the level of chimp-human genetic divergence would vary with the chromosomal banding pattern, and why it would be higher near the ends of chromosomes, if humans evolved. Short answer: I don’t know, and neither do the study’s authors. But I’d like to ask Dr. Hunter a question: can he account for these facts, on a creationist account of origins? He can’t. In other words, what we have is a curious fact which neither evolution nor creation explains well, and which is fatal to neither theory – or putting it more succinctly, much ado about nothing.

Can evolution account for the dissimilarities in rat and mouse genomes?

But Dr. Hunter thinks he has another ace up his sleeve: the fact that the genetic difference between mice and rats is about 10 times greater than that between humans and chimps.

This supposed divergence rate between chimps and humans is not consistent with the supposed divergence rate between the mouse and rat. The mouse-rat divergence is about an order of magnitude greater than the chimp-human divergence. And yet the mouse and rat are much more similar than the chimp and human. It makes no sense on evolution. In fact, before the rat genome was determined, evolutionists predicted it would be highly similar to the mouse genome…

The prediction that the mouse and rat genomes would be highly similar made sense according to evolution. But it was dramatically wrong.

Dr. Hunter is right on one point: scientists were at first surprised to discover that the genetic difference between rats and mice was so large. That’s because they based their prediction on the morphological differences between rats and mice, which are relatively small, and inferred that the genetic difference would be small, too. That was a big mistake, for reasons explained above: the vast majority of the genetic differences between any two species are neutral or near-neutral mutations, which dwarf beneficial mutations by a factor of about 100,000 to 1. However, the fossils tell a different story: rats and mice diverged at least 14 million years ago, compared with 6 or 7 million years for humans and chimps. And when scientists calculate the time of divergence using genetic differences, they arrive at a median figure of 17.9 million years ago for the date when rats and mice diverged, versus 6.2 million years ago for the split between humans and chimps, according to timetree.org. I’d say that tallies reasonably well with the fossil record. And I don’t say that lightly: I have in the past been highly critical of inconsistencies in the molecular clock, which I highlighted in a post written four years ago. There is still a lot we don’t know, and alert readers will have noticed that current estimates of the date when humans and chimps diverged vary considerably, as this graph reveals. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the estimates lie between four and nine million years ago, so we’re talking about a two-fold variation, which is still far less than even one order of magnitude. That’s annoying, but scientists can live with it, just as astronomers back in the 1970s and 1980s were able to live with the fact that the age of the universe lay somewhere between 10 and 20 billion years, depending on the method you used to measure it. (They’ve now concluded that it’s 13.8 billion years old.)

Dr. Hunter’s last stand

But Dr. Hunter believes he has one more argument that will demolish the case for human evolution:

The mouse-rat divergence date is estimated by evolutionists to be older than the chimp-human divergence date. Furthermore, the lifespan and generation time for mice and rats are much shorter than for chimps and humans. From this perspective, and given these two effects, one would conclude that the mouse-rat genetic divergence should be much greater—at least two orders of magnitude greater—than the chimp-human genetic divergence. But it isn’t. It is only about one order of magnitude greater.

Wrong. As we’ve seen, mice and rats diverged around 18 million years ago, compared with around six million years ago for humans and chimps. That’s a three-fold difference. What about the effects of generation time on the molecular clock? Soojin Yi addresses this point in her 2013 paper, “Neutrality and Molecular Clocks,” which I cited above:

Wu & Li (1985) were the first to test the generation-time effect hypothesis using DNA sequence data. They used data from 11 genes of primates and rodents. Since primates have a much longer generation time than rodents do, the molecular clock should be faster in rodents compared to primates. Indeed, they found that for synonymous sites, rodents show approximately two times the rate of molecular evolution when compared to primates (Wu & Li 1985). For nonsynonymous sites however, such an effect was not found. In other words, the neutral molecular clock, but not the amino acid molecular clock, ticks faster in the rodent lineage compared to the primate lineage, which fits well with the idea of a generation-time effect.

So the neutral molecular clock ticks twice as fast for rats and mice as it does for primates. Multiply that by the three-fold difference between the 18-million-year-old mouse-rat divergence date estimated by evolutionists and the 6-million-year-old human-chimp divergence date, and you get an expected level of genetic divergence which is just six times greater – and not two orders of magnitude (or 100 times) greater, as calculated by Dr. Hunter. This figure of a six-fold difference comports well with the ten-fold genetic divergence reported by Professor Swamidass in footnote 2 of his article: at least 15% of the codons in rats and mice are different, compared with less than 1.5% in humans and chimps.

Conclusion

There is a lot that we still don’t know about human origins. I accept that. But it would be foolish to deny that the scientific evidence points clearly to our having shared a common ancestor with the chimpanzee. Such a conclusion is in no way at odds with Intelligent Design.

What do readers think?

UPDATE:

Readers may wish to peruse the following articles, written in response to my post and to Professor Swamidass’s article, “Evidence and Evolution”:

A Response to VJTorley by Dr. Cornelius Hunter.
One Long Argument — Responding to VJ Torley on Human-Ape Common Descent by Dr. Cornelius Hunter.
Of Tree Rings and Humans by David Klinghoffer.
Debating Common Ancestry by John West.

Professor Swamidass has also written a follow-up article:
Call for Response to the Tree.

I also wrote a short comment in response to Professor Swamidass’s article, “Evidence for Evolution”, which has recently been updated with an FAQ section:

Hi Dr. Swamidass,

Thank you very much for your kind remarks about my post on Uncommon Descent.

I’d just like to comment briefly on what you said about Dr. Hunter in the FAQ:

“Third, I do believe that Dr. Hunter is not being intentionally deceptive or manipulative. I believe he is making a good faith effort, to the best of his abilities, to engage the evidence I have raised.”

I would like to endorse what you said. I pulled no punches in my post, and on a few occasions, I did criticize Dr. Hunter for relying on flawed arguments. I also wrote that he “neglects to inform” his readers on a couple of basic points. For the record, I wish to make it quite clear that I am not accusing Dr. Hunter of being intentionally deceptive. All of us are, at times, guilty of an unintentional bias towards arguments that we personally favor, and it is all too easy to ignore what we might perceive as very minor or trivial problems in these arguments, when presenting them to an audience. That was what I had in mind when I wrote about Dr. Hunter’s “neglect.”

Despite my differences with Dr. Hunter, I have the greatest respect for him as a Christian, and I would like to thank him for his forbearance and courtesy.

Likewise, when I referred to Dr. Hunter in my post as believing he had an ace up his sleeve, I was not implying that he was resorting to any sleight-of-hand or trickery. Rather, I was using the term in the sense in which the Cambridge English dictionary defines it: secret knowledge or a secret skill that will give you an advantage.

For the record, I believe Dr. Hunter to be an honest man. And I apologize for any pain or distress suffered by Dr. Hunter as a result of reading my post. I wish him well.

Comments
Prof Swamidass:
I’d love to keep you informed of future stuff I do. For example, in about a month I’m planning a pretty important post on how humans are much more than just apes. It is based on a remarkable dialogue I did with a leading expert in human evolution. I think this will be of high interest to you. I’m also pretty involved in faith-science dialogue. What is the right way to let you know?
I'm hoping that someone will reach out to Prof Swamidass and offer to allow him to post an OP at any time.Mung
May 18, 2016
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Origenes @223: I saw this statement previously, but when you quoted it this time it jumped out at me:
Swamidass: I think some of the design inferences are reasonable and probably correct (i.e. fine tuning and origin of life).
It seems that part of what we may be dealing with is that Professor Swamidass may think there are different design inferences, or that the design inference operates in a different way for different biological questions. This would be an incorrect view of the design inference. While different facts may of course be under scrutiny in different situations, the design inference operates essentially the same across the board. My hunch, though, is that the objection is not that technical or nuanced. It seems to be a general objection to the idea of design in biology, while acknowledging the force of the OOL problem -- both because: (a) OOL is completely intractable on any naturalistic grounds and lots of people, including ardent evolutionists have admitted as much (which, conveniently, means one can doubt OOL and still enjoy respectability within Darwinist-centric academia), and (b) OOL is prior to, and thus cannot rely on, the inscrutable magic of random mutations and natural selection. In any event, I agree with you and I am gratified that Professor Swamidass acknowledges the legitimacy of the design inference in the context of OOL. I hope if he gets some time he will clarify why the design inference is acceptable in the fine tuning of the universe and up to the point of OOL, but not thereafter.Eric Anderson
May 18, 2016
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Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass Apparently @194 you mistakenly referred to post #187 but commented on another post (maybe you meant # 188?). In any case, your comments don't make sense within the context of the post number you referred to (i.e. 187): BTW, you have ignored all the questions I have asked you. They are very easy to answer. Why do you avoid them? Let me repeat my posts to save you the hassle of having to scroll up/down this thread:
My comments and questions posted @ 162, 165, 168, 169, 174, 172, 176 were for you too. @186
Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass @166 Apparently you missed seeing my comment @169 so I repeat it here: The question is about how exactly the TEs end up where they are? What mechanisms put them where they are? how? why? Thank you.
@187
Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass Have you studied the 2014 courses on Systems Biology by Uri Alon from Weizmann Institute for Science at Rehovot and by MIT? Would you answer some questions associated with the topic of those courses? Do you know exactly how the cell fate intrinsic determinants get segregated in the asymmetric mitosis ? Also, do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients get spatiotemporally established and interpreted?
@206
Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass @194
DionisioMay: I’m gonna pass on the basic bio questions. You can find answers on wikipedia and from reading the literature. If you are really curious, maybe considering a class at a local university. There are a lot of people who can help you with that.
Sir, your answer is wrong. You may want to read the questions carefully and you should realize that you could have answered them better. The precise answers to those questions are not in any literature nor their combination. Try again. Please, note that some of the questions are personal, hence require a personal honest response. Thank you.
Regarding @186, just state whether you know the exact answer to those questions or at least can point to the exact paper(s) where it is described precisely and explained satisfactorily.
[162, 165, 168, 169, 174, 172, 176, 186, 187, 206]Dionisio
May 18, 2016
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Eric Anderson:
Origenes: Before naturalistic science can rightfully claim common descent, as an explanation consistent with naturalism, it must explain coordination at the level of an organism as a whole from the level of fermions and bosons.
Fermions and bosons? Oh, come on! I’d be willing to cut them a break and let them start from a complete suite of amino acids. :) https://uncommondescent.com/chemistry/abiogenesis-challenge/
James Tour says the exact same thing in different words, only a few months later:
All right, now let’s assemble the Dream Team. We’ve got good professors here, so let’s assemble the Dream Team. Let’s further assume that the world’s top 100 synthetic chemists, top 100 biochemists and top 100 evolutionary biologists combined forces into a limitlessly funded Dream Team. The Dream Team has all the carbohydrates, lipids, amino acids and nucleic acids stored in freezers in their laboratories… All of them are in 100% enantiomer purity. [Let’s] even give the team all the reagents they wish, the most advanced laboratories, and the analytical facilities, and complete scientific literature, and synthetic and natural non-living coupling agents. Mobilize the Dream Team to assemble the building blocks into a living system – nothing complex, just a single cell. The members scratch their heads and walk away, frustrated… So let’s help the Dream Team out by providing the polymerized forms: polypeptides, all the enzymes they desire, the polysaccharides, DNA and RNA in any sequence they desire, cleanly assembled. The level of sophistication in even the simplest of possible living cells is so chemically complex that we are even more clueless now than with anything discussed regarding prebiotic chemistry or macroevolution. The Dream Team will not know where to start. Moving all this off Earth does not solve the problem, because our physical laws are universal. You see the problem for the chemists? Welcome to my world. This is what I’m confronted with, every day.
Interestingly Swamidass agrees with us on this point:
Swamidass: I think some of the design inferences are reasonable and probably correct (i.e. fine tuning and origin of life).
Okay, so does he also agree that naturalistic science cannot rightfully use 'organisms' and 'common descent' as starting points, since it cannot ground them? That is less clear, because he immediately adds: "As philosophical and theological exercises, the best ID arguments make sense to me." So, according to Swamidass, design inferences are "philosophical and theological exercises" and not part of science?Origenes
May 18, 2016
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Re: Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass (218) In general, doc, I agree with you. I would debate with you about the "science" vs. "philosophy" however. What I see in "science" is a declaration that the modern synthesis is truly adequate to explain it all. I don't find that to be correct. If the scientific position were much more humble, if the scientific community were much quicker to declare "I don't know", then I would agree with you. I hold that any challenge to the neo-darwinian explanation, such as the evidence from the cambrian explosion or the unusual changes in the HAR1F gene, belong within science. If these evidences are presented as challenges for the modern synthesis, ie, the modern synthesis does not seem to have a satisfactory explanation, then I am satisfied. However, the scientific community seems determined to deny all doubt.bFast
May 18, 2016
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Professor Swamidass @217:
The argument goes something like: (1) fraud detection is part of science. (2) ID is like fraud detection. (3) ID is part of science too!
Almost, but not quite. ID stands on its own ground as a legitimate, objective way to investigate. It examines the evidence, brings in our knowledge of what we know about causes currently operational in the world, and draws an inference to the best explanation. The reference to other fields is primarily to give examples to help those who have a mental block against using design detection in biology so that they can -- hopefully -- step back a moment and look in the mirror to closely examine the source of their objection in the field of biology. I am, however, sincerely interested in your claim to have found that the design inference fails in biology. I would not wish to proceed down a path that is intellectually problematic, so please share with us your understanding so that we can avoid such a mistake. I am not being sarcastic -- if you can help us avoid going down the wrong path with Dembsik, Behe and other ID proponents, I would like to know sooner, rather than later, in my life. One other point: There are some, even ID proponents, who aren't particularly interested in whether ID is "science." I think it clearly is, by any reasonable definition. But others might rationally take the view that ID is not "science" under some narrow definition, but is still a worthwhile endeavor and worth pursuing as an avenue to help us understand the world around us. What is your definition of "science", and if ID does not meet your specific definition, would you still be open to considering ID as a useful avenue of inquiry?Eric Anderson
May 18, 2016
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Why not just make a solid and sound philosophical argument based on scientific knowledge? This respectable, and would end like 90% of the conflict.
This is what ID is about, using science to make a solid and sound argument. The Wilcox review of human evolution is certainly sound and solid and he is not an official ID supporter.
I do not understand why #4 is necessary. Why is #2 not enough?
And why should ID ignore evolution? It sounds like you want evolution off limits and that is not a sound and solid argument philosophically or scientifically. Or theologically!!! Sound and solid arguments are made about evolution too. But it is not the only area. It sounds like your theology determines what will be accepted as a science argument. This is one of our main concerns with theistic evolutionists. In a way this is part of what was driving objections to Galileo, theology not science.jerry
May 18, 2016
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Prof Swamidass ID has another branch that you seem to ignore. Engineering. How do we recognise design from an engineering point of view? This is of course my special interest in the debate and I am certain you can be convinced from an engineering point of view.Andre
May 18, 2016
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I am not ignorant. Please, stop arguing my ignorance is the problem. Reading Jerry's tome (and a few other posts too), I realized another major misconception here. 1. I believe God designed us. In that sense I believe in intelligent design (with lower case i and d). 2. I think some of the design inferences are reasonable and probably correct (i.e. fine tuning and origin of life). As philosophical and theological exercises, the best ID arguments make sense to me. 3. I think that some of the design inferences are genuinely bad. If you can't attack the bad arguments that flatter your cause, who will trust you when you present a good argument? 4. Even for the arguments I am convinced of, I do not see justification for including them as "science" or in science textbooks. Philosophy class "yes", science class "no." 5. I do not understand why #4 is necessary. Why is #2 not enough? Why do you need the label "science?" Why not just make a solid and sound philosophical argument based on scientific knowledge? This respectable, and would end like 90% of the conflict.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
May 18, 2016
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Is ID the same as design detection in other fields? "Design detection is a well-established scientific and investigative principle in many fields of study, including archaeology, forensics, intellectual property infringement, illegal insider trading investigation, insurance fraud detection, reverse engineering, and many others." So I'm most familiar with Dembski's work advancing this case. I find it lacking. I've already given my one-sentence dismissal, which I'm sure seemed capricious and non-illuminating. So let me try again. The argument goes something like: (1) fraud detection is part of science. (2) ID is like fraud detection. (3) ID is part of science too! This is not a convincing argument to me because both claim (1) and (2) are tenuous enough to make the whole argument doubtful. Let's focus on aim 2. I'm sure you can write posts and posts about how ID is like SETI, fraud detection, intrusion detection, etc. But let's start with the other side. How many differences can you list out between ID (inference to a Designer in biology and cosmology) and these things? Of the top of my head, I can come up with about five material differences. Now you try. What are the differences? For each difference, why do you think they are immaterial or material? After a few people post on it, I'll show you why I think the differences are so substantial as to make the original argument unconvincing.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
May 18, 2016
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Prof Swamidass, Here is a very long explanation I wrote about 10 years ago to explain ID to people who are not familiar with the issues. You do not seem to be familiar with what ID is concerned about.
The following is an analysis of the changes in life forms and where ID has interests. Evolution is essentially a multi-tiered theory. The first tier is the origin of life or how did a cell and DNA, RNA and proteins arise. Quite a sticky issue with no sensible answer by science. Lots of speculation and wishful thinking but nothing that makes sense. The problem is enormous yet few admit its size. The solution is always just around the corner and things like the Miller Urey experiments are still used as illustrations of what works. Just imagine how you construct a ribosome by chance or ATP synthase. A high percentage of ID concerns are in this tier and zero concerns by neo Darwinism which essentially starts with the first cell. However, a discussion in a Robert Shapiro’s article in Scientific American over a year ago was about this and it is interesting that he invoked Darwinian processes to bolster his claims. I believe Dawkins has used natural selection as a factor in OOL. Usually, evolutionary biology stays away from origin of life issues but nearly every biology book deals with it. The complexity of the origin of life issues is one studied extensively by ID proponents and their conclusion is that only an intelligence could have produced such complex systems. The next tier I will call the evolution of single celled organisms. There is really quite a lot of development of significant capabilities here, including a commenter’s example of eukaryotes and such things as photosynthesis and of course the favorite, the origin of the flagellum. There are lots of changes in single celled organisms and these examples are new to us but should be examined. The question is whether the changes can be explained by naturalistic means or not. For most of this I don’t pretend to be very knowledgeable so I shy away from discussing it other than to ask questions about how much change took place and what could have caused this change and to discuss whether current answers are satisfactory or not. For example, Behe listed the flagellum as an irreducible complex system with extraordinary capabilities. Several people have said they have answered Behe’s arguments and it is not irreducibly complex but after reading them, I find them wanting and not convincing and this topic is frequently debated here. The third tier is how did a single cell organism form multi-cell organisms and this include how did such complex organisms as the eye arise as these multi-cell organisms arose. How, did brains, limbs, digestive systems, neurological systems arise and all the complex signaling systems between cells and organs. These are immensely complicated but get little discussion except it all happened over time. We have all seen the “it must have evolved” or “it was selected” comment in journal articles and books which is the “begging the question fallacy.” This is also an important area for ID but not as much so for Darwinists. Irreducible complexity operates extensively in this tier. Also most of these systems must have developed before the Cambrian Explosion so there is relatively little geological time for these complexities to have developed and no fossil record of such a predecessor. This means that the organisms that appeared during the Cambrian Explosion and their relationship to each other is important. Nothing in the organisms of the Cambrian Explosion is consistent with a gradualist approach to species. It is definitely top down, not bottom up. There is little or no diversity within the various phyla, only isolated instances of various phyla. The diversity came later. A complete contradiction to Darwinian processes. James Valentine, the most knowledgeable of all paleontologists on the Cambrian Explosion, hypothesizes some unknown mechanism that accounted for the uniqueness of each of the phyla. Nothing but speculation but something had to happen because it had to happen without an intelligent input. He begs the question. It is the begging the question fallacy applied continually through out modern evolutionary reasoning. The next tier is the one that gets the most debate in the popular press and that is how did one species arise from another species when there are substantial functional differences between them. This is the majors of macro evolution even though the Cambrian Explosion represents the true epitome of the macro evolution problem. How did insects, birds and bats get wings to fly, how did land creatures develop oxygen breathing systems or how did man get such a big brain and why such a long time for children to develop and where did consciousness come from. How did 4 chamber hearts and warm vs. cold blooded arise. How did birds develop their unique oxygen transport system. How did giraffes develop their unique blood pressure system. There is lots of speculation but no evidence, only a series of “just so” stories. An occasional fossil is brought up to show the progression ignoring the fact that there had to be tens of thousands of other steps for these progressions of which only a handful have been found. I believe the forest animal to whale is now neo Darwinism’s best example here and one that commenters present and even this has millions of years between slightly similar fossils. Are these occasional fossil example of gradualism in action or do they just represent various examples of different organisms whose origin is at best a mystery. In this tier the ID and the Darwinist are sometimes on common turf fighting it out. But ID is relatively less interested in the issues here but still very interested and annoyingly point out the lack of evidence to back up any “just so stories”. There is another part of this tier which I call macro-evolution light or the minors. This is how did a lot of the orders and families develop? For example, within Carnivora how did all the families arise? ID seldom cares about this area but evolutionary biology does. I don’t think ID would care much if someone showed how all the family canidae or felidae arose by gradualistic approaches but yet the evolutionary biologists would claim that would be a major verification of their theory. ID would ask what truly novel functional complex capabilities arose during this process or could all just be explained by micro evolutionary processes working on an original gene pool. In other words is this process just a trivial outcome once an original gene pool was available and basic processes which ID does not dispute are the driving forces. This area is a bridge between the third tier and the final tier. The final tier is what Darwin observed on his trip on the Beagle and what most of evolutionist are talking about when they think evolution, namely micro-evolution and can be explained by basic genetics, occasional mutations, environmental pressures and of course, natural selection. Few disagree on this fifth tier including those who call themselves Intelligent Design proponents yet this is where all the evidence is that is used to persuade everyone that Darwinism is a valid theory. And even here the evidence is thin with a lot of the evidence coming from changes in single celled organisms. The evidence in this tier is used to justify the first four tiers because the materialist needs all five tiers to justify their philosophy of life but the relevance of the evidence in this last tier for the other tiers is scant at best. It should be understood that Intelligent Design assumes the basic neo Darwinism micro evolutionary process and does not dispute its power to perform minor changes to the genome which is so important in areas of medicine and genetic diseases. It would be interesting to see if anti-ID examples proposed end up in this final tier or are there more substantial changes to the genomes that would require more than normal micro evolutionary processes. What changes happened to the organisms in commenters examples. So to sum up, my experience is that ID concentrates on tier 1, 2 and 3, a fair bit on the novelties that show up in tier 4 and are not concerned at all with tier 5 which is what Darwin observed and supplies nearly all the evidence for neo Darwinism. This is a framework under which I look at the evolution problems and it has proved useful in understanding objections to ID and how they are usually misplaced. Maybe out of this we can come up with a working definition of macro evolution. One thing that has to be considered is that micro evolution is a process while macro evolution is a result. Macro evolution is not a process so they can not be defined similarly.
Probably would re-write it a little but not much based on 10 years of additional information.jerry
May 18, 2016
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Okay there seems to be a fair amount of confusion about my posts. I'm sorry about that. I just have to remind myself that you don't really know me, and where I come from. I can honestly say I've heard the vast majority of these arguments from the horse's mouth. I've read the books. I've talked to most of the authors. I was even an ID believer for a long time. When I give my 1 sentence dismissals, it is (obviously) unclear the reason why I find those arguments not compelling. From your point of view, has got to be frustrating. Please understand, I mean no disrespect. I just think it means I will be more judicious and selective from here about that to which I will respond. Sorry that I came off as rude the first time. It was unintentional.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
May 18, 2016
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Professor Swamidass @164:
Also, I assume most of you are Christians. But I never see you all talk about Jesus in science. How does He influence how you think about ID, evolution, and science as a whole? For me, He entirely reorders how I see everything, including science. Here on this website, however, He seems unmentioned and oddly irrelevant. I can’t get my head around that.
You can't get your head around it because you don't understand ID, despite your claims to the contrary. Why would I need to invoke Jesus in the field of archaeology, or forensics, or intellectual property infringement, or numerous other areas? Why do you keep falling into the intellectual trap of thinking that design is unacceptable in biology? I'm trying to say this charitably, but it appears you have such a massive assumption -- and therefore an intellectual blind spot -- about design as it relates to biology that you can't digest the basics of how the design inference works.Eric Anderson
May 18, 2016
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Eric,
Respectfully, please don’t use that kind of terminology. ID supporters think the laws of physics have been violated and such.
I see no reason not to use this explanation. We continually point to design in our environment and every instance resulted from a suspension of the four basic laws of physics. That is essentially what design is about. Unless you want to make the case that intelligence is the result of the four basic laws then everything is determined. That is why I say there is no real theory of design but design is a conclusion based on evidence that used the tools of science and analysis where the conclusion is that the four basic laws of physics can not explain the results. So some other force must have been present. That is the approach of Meyers in his books. I am willing to accept that something was designed without the four basic laws but then this design proceeds to produce something that is a result of these laws that is functional. The simplest example I can think of it the rerouting of a river to produce water for irrigation. I used an extremely complicated example a couple years ago how such a design might lead to OOL. This is essentially the point of view of the TE's who say it is all in the original design of the universe and we are the result of cascading events due to the four laws of physics. Intelligent Design is a suspension of the four basic laws at some point.
Design simply means that there is a purposeful selection from among contingent possibilities.
This is an example of suspension of the four basic laws of physicsjerry
May 18, 2016
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Origenes @208:
IOWs before naturalistic science can rightfully claim common descent, as an explanation consistent with naturalism, it must explain coordination at the level of an organism as a whole from the level of fermions and bosons.
Fermions and bosons? Oh, come on! I'd be willing to cut them a break and let them start from a complete suite of amino acids. :) https://uncommondescent.com/chemistry/abiogenesis-challenge/Eric Anderson
May 18, 2016
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StephenB @204: Good point and I agree. I think we are probably all interested in both aspects, to some greater or lesser extent. My interests in ID are primarily scientific. In particular because, as you point out, there is a tendency to force the evidence down a particular road if one adopts a specific faith-based narrative out of the gate before examining the evidence (a problem that perhaps plagues the pro-evolution side even more than the pro-ID side). I occasionally weigh in on these pages regarding faith/religious issues, but I typically find less value in the debates that hinge on someone's personal interpretation of some vague passage of some book written ages ago for a different purpose and in an different context.Eric Anderson
May 18, 2016
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jerry @209:
. . . design by definition means a suspension of the laws of physics . . .
Respectfully, please don't use that kind of terminology. It is exceedingly confusing to someone who is trying to understand ID and also contributes to all manner of red herring arguments by ID opponents that ID supporters think the laws of physics have been violated and such. There has been no suspension of the laws of physics and design certainly does not call for anything of the kind. Design simply means that there is a purposeful selection from among contingent possibilities.Eric Anderson
May 18, 2016
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Prof Swamidass, Over the years there have been many high level anti-ID pro natural evolutionists who have commented here. None of them had the confidence you seem to exhibit that the process is well understood and the mathematics of it explain evolution. We certainly understand the processes that lead to micro evolution and ID does not dispute any of this. These processes and the mathematics that go with are well accepted by the ID community. So I would not use them to discredit ID when in fact there is no issue with them and their implications. It is only certain types of evolution that ID has problems with. Namely, the paths that led to complex functional novelities. In regards to humans where the novelities are in cognitive processing, there seems to be something unusual going on. The changes are not necessarily in the coding regions but there are some there as well. Wilcox, who is a respected geneticist has written an extensive review on the changes in humans vs. chimps. Here is a paragraph from this review and linked to several times in this thread. http://bit.ly/1TfR5Ha
In terms of the question of how this change was brought about, clearly transposons were a central factor. Alu’s in particular have been particularly active in altering the human genome. Does the use of such a uniquely high level of transposon activity in the production of the modern human genome militate against viewing human evolution as a providentially guided process? After all, transposon movement/insertion appears to be a matter of pure “chance,” unaffected by the “needs” of an organism. Does this make humanity a happenstance, the product of the biggest engine of chance in the animal kingdom? Or are we seeing the providential hand of God who is the Lord of “chance”? Or both? The evidence of “random” events does not exclude providence—in fact, the meaning can be viewed as quite the opposite. Our origin does not look like “business as usual” in the ecosystem, even if we can explain what happened. This judgment, I would suggest, can be viewed as a valid perception of “design” if one wishes to, but what can be seen is the design of the whole, not the designing of its parts. However, such perception requires the acceptance of the specifying assumption that God governs natural events (the doctrine of providence). Thus, it is rational to hold this view, but it is not necessarily statistically demonstrable to those who cannot perceive it. I do not know what new data will turn up in the next few years, but in my opinion, I do not think that we are irrational in holding that there was a highly directed process involved in the making of humanity.
So we are led to believe that an almost impossible set of naturalistic occurrences led to humans with no other example in the history of evolutionary biology with similar patterns. Or there was design some how. ID does not discuss the "how" because these are one time events. We can see the "what" in the end result but because design by definition means a suspension of the laws of physics, there will not be a pattern that allows to know the "how."jerry
May 18, 2016
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Swamidass: The problem for ID, as I see it, is that it currently explains much less than common descent.
It is as if you completely ignore the fact that multiple IDers (VJTorley, Gpuccio and others) in this thread have provided extensive argumentation for the compatibility of ID with common descent. This way ID encompasses any explanatory power common descent may have, and, on top of that, can throw in “intelligent modification” for additional explanatory power. This results in ID explaining much more instead of much less. Moreover, one problem for naturalistic science, WRT common descent, is that has no right to take an organism as the starting point of a “naturalistic explanation”, since it cannot explain it bottom-up. Before naturalistic science is allowed to incorporate an organism in naturalistic explanations such as ‘common descent’, it must show how (and why) fermions and bosons self-assemble into an organism. Note that “sheer dumb luck” is not an explanation; see also James Tour. Moreover it must explain why an organism, assuming that it is in fact nothing over and beyond fermions and bosons, does not fall apart — as it does, in fact, at the moment of death. IOWs before naturalistic science can rightfully claim common descent, as an explanation consistent with naturalism, it must explain coordination at the level of an organism as a whole from the level of fermions and bosons.Origenes
May 18, 2016
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Swamidass: (…) science concerns itself with finding coherent explanations, (not invoking God, so not violating methodological naturalism).
The ultimate ambition of naturalistic science is to explain all higher level coherencies from the level of fermions and bosons. IOW an ideal naturalistic science will be able to explain phenomena like life, consciousness and rationality bottom-up from the most basic material level. One problem with this ambition of naturalistic science is that, if all things are explainable from fermions and bosons, we have no control over our thoughts. Therefore naturalistic science is self-referentially incoherent. A coherent science must assume conscious free controlled rationality. The argument: (1). If naturalism is true, then determinism is true. (2). If determinism is true, then all our actions and thoughts are consequences of events and laws of nature in the remote past before we were born. (3). We have no control over circumstances that existed in the remote past before we were born, nor do we have any control over the laws of nature. (4). If A causes B, and we have no control over A, and A is sufficient for B, then we have no control over B. Therefore (5). If determinism is true, then we have no control over our own actions and thoughts. Therefore, assuming that rationality requires control, (6). If determinism is true, we are not rational. - - Van Inwagen explains that undetermined events (also) fail to ground rationality:
“Let us look carefully at the consequences of supposing that human behavior is undetermined … Let us suppose that there is a certain current-pulse that is proceeding along one of the neural pathways in Jane’s brain and that it is about to come to a fork. And let us suppose that if it goes to the left, she will make her confession;, and that if it goes to the right, she will remain silent. And let us suppose that it is undetermined which way the pulse goes when it comes to the fork: even an omniscient being with a complete knowledge of the state of Jane’s brain and a complete knowledge of the laws of physics and unlimited powers of calculation could say no more than: ‘The laws and present state of her brain would allow the pulse to go either way; consequently, no prediction of what the pulse will do when it comes to the fork is possible; it might go to the left, and it might go to the right, and that’s all there is to be said.’ Now let us ask: does Jane have any choice about whether the pulse goes to the left or to the right? If we think about this question for a moment, we shall see that it is very hard to see how she could have any choice about that. …There is no way for her to make it go one way rather than the other. Or, at least, there is no way for her to make it go one way rather than the other and leave the ‘choice’ it makes an undetermined event.” [Van Inwagen]
Origenes
May 18, 2016
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Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass @194
DionisioMay: I’m gonna pass on the basic bio questions. You can find answers on wikipedia and from reading the literature. If you are really curious, maybe considering a class at a local university. There are a lot of people who can help you with that.
Sir, your answer is wrong. You may want to read the questions carefully and you should realize that you could have answered them better. The precise answers to those questions are not in any literature nor their combination. Try again. Please, note that some of the questions are personal, hence require a personal honest response. BTW, please tell me what do you mean by "DionisioMay:"? Thank you.Dionisio
May 17, 2016
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As to this false claim:
[a] I’ve already explained the difference. Evolution gives a framework for producing testable hypothesis, which very frequently end up being experimentally validated. ID does not. It does not function the same way in science.
Contrary to that claim, Darwinian evolution is a unfalsifiable pseudo-science that is completely vacant on experimental verification and is also impervious to observational challenge,
“The argument that random variation and Darwinian gradualism may not be adequate to explain complex biological systems is hardly new […} in fact, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation for such a vast subject — evolution — with so little rigorous examination of how well its basic theses works in illuminating specific instances of biological adaptation or diversity.” Prof. James Shapiro – “In the Details…What?” National Review, 19 September 1996, pp. 64. ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA Michael Behe - Observed (1 in 10^20) Edge of Evolution - video - Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote - "This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvA Genetic Entropy – references to several numerical simulations analyzing the feasibility of natural selection and random mutations and finding them severely wanting ,,, (via John Sanford and company) http://www.geneticentropy.org/#!properties/ctzx “Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought.” ~ Cornelius Hunter
In fact, since it has no rigid mathematical basis as other overarching theories of science have, Darwinian evolution does not even qualify as a real science in the first place but is in fact a unfalsifiable pseudo-science that is no better than tea-leaf reading
“In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality.” Karl Popper – The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge Darwinian Evolution is a Unfalsifiable Pseudo-Science (i.e. no demarcation/falsification criteria)– Mathematics – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1132659110080354/?type=2&theater
Whereas, on the other hand, unlike Darwinism, ID does qualify as a rigorous science since it does indeed have a rigid falsification criteria (as well as having a rigid mathematical basis)
“The National Academy of Sciences has objected that intelligent design is not falsifiable, and I think that’s just the opposite of the truth. Intelligent design is very open to falsification. I claim, for example, that the bacterial flagellum could not be produced by natural selection; it needed to be deliberately intelligently designed. Well, all a scientist has to do to prove me wrong is to take a bacterium without a flagellum, or knock out the genes for the flagellum in a bacterium, go into his lab and grow that bug for a long time and see if it produces anything resembling a flagellum. If that happened, intelligent design, as I understand it, would be knocked out of the water. I certainly don’t expect it to happen, but it’s easily falsified by a series of such experiments. Now let’s turn that around and ask, How do we falsify the contention that natural selection produced the bacterial flagellum? If that same scientist went into the lab and knocked out the bacterial flagellum genes, grew the bacterium for a long time, and nothing much happened, well, he’d say maybe we didn’t start with the right bacterium, maybe we didn’t wait long enough, maybe we need a bigger population, and it would be very much more difficult to falsify the Darwinian hypothesis. I think the very opposite is true. I think intelligent design is easily testable, easily falsifiable, although it has not been falsified, and Darwinism is very resistant to being falsified. They can always claim something was not right.” - Dr Michael Behe It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence - June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search -- unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with "natural evolution." ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab's website states, "The principal theme of the lab's research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems." So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can't prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can't derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html
As far as the 'predictive power' of Darwinian evolution goes, Darwinism fails big time on that score as well,,
Darwin’s (failed) Predictions – Cornelius G. Hunter – 2015 This paper evaluates 23 fundamental (false) predictions of evolutionary theory from a wide range of different categories. The paper begins with a brief introduction to the nature of scientific predictions, and typical concerns evolutionists raise against investigating predictions of evolution. The paper next presents the individual predictions in seven categories: early evolution, evolutionary causes, molecular evolution, common descent, evolutionary phylogenies, evolutionary pathways, and behavior. Finally the conclusion summarizes these various predictions, their implications for evolution’s capacity to explain phenomena, and how they bear on evolutionist’s claims about their theory. *Introduction Why investigate evolution’s false predictions? Responses to common objections *Early evolution predictions The DNA code is not unique The cell’s fundamental molecules are universal *Evolutionary causes predictions Mutations are not adaptive Embryology and common descent Competition is greatest between neighbors *Molecular evolution predictions Protein evolution Histone proteins cannot tolerate much change The molecular clock keeps evolutionary time *Common descent predictions The pentadactyl pattern and common descent Serological tests reveal evolutionary relationships Biology is not lineage specific Similar species share similar genes MicroRNA *Evolutionary phylogenies predictions Genomic features are not sporadically distributed Gene and host phylogenies are congruent Gene phylogenies are congruent The species should form an evolutionary tree *Evolutionary pathways predictions Complex structures evolved from simpler structures Structures do not evolve before there is a need for them Functionally unconstrained DNA is not conserved Nature does not make leaps *Behavior Altruism Cell death *Conclusions What false predictions tell us about evolution https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/home Why investigate evolution’s false predictions? Excerpt: The predictions examined in this paper were selected according to several criteria. They cover a wide spectrum of evolutionary theory and are fundamental to the theory, reflecting major tenets of evolutionary thought. They were widely held by the consensus rather than reflecting one viewpoint of several competing viewpoints. Each prediction was a natural and fundamental expectation of the theory of evolution, and constituted mainstream evolutionary science. Furthermore, the selected predictions are not vague but rather are specific and can be objectively evaluated. They have been tested and evaluated and the outcome is not controversial or in question. And finally the predictions have implications for evolution’s (in)capacity to explain phenomena, as discussed in the conclusions. https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/why-investigate-evolution-s-false-predictions
bornagain77
May 17, 2016
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Eric @203, for my part, I am interested in both. Theistic evolution, for example, is often informed by a fideist perspective on religion, which produces a built-in bias against ID even before the evidence is allowed to speak.StephenB
May 17, 2016
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Professor Swamidass @195:
I’d love to keep you informed of future stuff I do. For example, in about a month I’m planning a pretty important post on how humans are much more than just apes. It is based on a remarkable dialogue I did with a leading expert in human evolution. I think this will be of high interest to you. . . . What is the right way to let you know?
We would love to hear about your work on this topic. You can comment sometime on a post to let us know and I'm sure one of us authors will pick it up. I'm sure we'd be happy to link to your work or even have you do a guest post if you have time for that. ----- Incidentally, just so you have a sense as to how broad the audience is, yes, it is true that many authors and commenters at UD are primarily interested in faith, God, and related matters, and these topics are often discussed at length in these pages. However, some of us are interested in intelligent design, and the evolution debate, primarily as a scientific issue, so we are much more interested in debating the issues from that standpoint, rather than from any particular faith-based position.Eric Anderson
May 17, 2016
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Prof Swamidass
Your Biblical interpretation is off. This is important. Go back and read the whole context. Romans teaches that studying nature, uniformly, leads to idolatry, not to correct knowledge of God. It is a reason we are left without excuse. It is not a path to God
Paslm 19:1-2 "1.) For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2.) Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge."Andre
May 17, 2016
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Professor Swamidass: Thank you for posting here and joining the conversation. It is always wonderful to have someone join in the discussion. You said @140:
I do not think science is powerful enough to detect evidence of design.
I see others have responded, but I wanted to focus on that statement as well. Design detection is a well-established scientific and investigative principle in many fields of study, including archaeology, forensics, intellectual property infringement, illegal insider trading investigation, insurance fraud detection, reverse engineering, and many others. Do you object to design detection in all these fields, or do you only object to design detection in biology?Eric Anderson
May 17, 2016
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Professor Swamidass, thank you for responding. You write,
[a] I’ve already explained the difference. Evolution gives a framework for producing testable hypothesis, which very frequently end up being experimentally validated. ID does not. It does not function the same way in science.
* ID does, indeed, test hypotheses: (1) Natural structures will be found that contain many parts arranged in intricate patterns that perform a specific function (e.g. complex and specified information). (2) Forms containing large amounts of novel information will appear in the fossil record suddenly and without similar precursors. (3) Convergence will occur routinely. That is, genes and other functional parts will be re-used in different and unrelated organisms. (4) Much so-called "junk DNA" will turn out to perform valuable functions.
Methodology is important. SETI works entirely different then ID. ID is a different methodology than science. That is why it struggles in science. For that matter, so does SETI.
*ID, does, indeed, use the scientific method: Observation>>Hypothesis>>Experiment>>Conclusion. If that isn’t the scientific method, then what is? Please be specific.
Your Biblical interpretation is off. This is important. Go back and read the whole context. Romans teaches that studying nature, uniformly, leads to idolatry, not to correct knowledge of God. It is a reason we are left without excuse. It is not a path to God
*According to Romans 1: 20 God’s handiwork is “made evident,” by the “things that are seen,” therefore non-believers are “without excuse.” It means that we don’t have to rely on faith to testify to God’s existence. We can know it through the use of reason unaided by religious faith. That is the point of the passage. You are not reading out of the text (exegesis), you are reading into the text (eisegesis.) There is no way to extract your interpretation from the passages.
In terms of evolution (which is not Darwinism or evolutionism) look at BioLogos. Leading historians and theologians show you how it can work together.
*I have already explained why God and Darwin cannot work together. Meaning no disrespect, but Ignoring my reasons will not suffice as a substitute for addressing them. Please reread the points carefully and try to refute them. No one has yet been able to do so. Though invitations have been extended to them, BioLogos historians and theologians will not respond to the point. Here is another approach, though it is not meant to supersede the first argument. In the case of Teleological Theism, the design precedes and shapes the evolutionary process. In the case of Darwinian Evolution–the evolutionary process precedes and shapes the design (appearance of). Notice that there can be no reconciliation. To affirm one perspective is to negate the other. Either God’s real design precedes and shapes the evolutionary process (Teleological Theism) or, the evolutionary process precedes and shapes the appearance of design (Neo-Darwinism). It must be one or the other. It cannot be both.StephenB
May 17, 2016
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@196 Exon insertions are often bad, but that is rare compared to insertion into regulatory regions. This is why they are relatively safe. Exon insertion are not usually lethal. Just look at the mouse knockout data. Some are lethal, most are not, but are not beneficial. A large number are silent, with no discernable effect (usually because biological systems are robust). About splicing codes, we actually do know a fair amount. There even reasonable predictors. We even known how they vary with SNPs. We know many of the cis and trans actors. It is still early though, give us about 20 years. It will make much more sense then. Remember, just now we are starting to learn about de novo mutations. The technology is only just now catching up with our ability to ask questions here. The really remarkable thing about humans and chimps. To a first approximation, we are made of essentially the same parts, just shuffled (by splicing and expression timing) in a different way. That is totally amazing, and really unexpected. I don't think anyone quite expected this. From an evolutionary point of view, though, it is much easier to imagine how this could happen. Clearly splicing and expression are a consequence (for the most part) of the genome. Moreover, small mutations can have dramatic consequences on expression and splicing, not just locally but across the genome. Moreover, there are multiple ways (in the genetic code) to achieve the same splicing and expression phenotype. Moreover, it is usually safe to introduce variation in splicing and expression. Moreover, a random transposon into the genome is more likely to affect expression than anything else. (All these claims stuff have strong evidence; I'm not just spit balling). Taken together, and this is really remarkable, these biological facts seem to dramatically reduce the difficulty in evolving a human from a chimp-human common ancestor. How much easier? Well that is the million dollar question. We can't really tell exactly if this is a low or high probability path yet. Though (I'lll post about this later) one prominent expert in human evolution (Ajit Varki) argues that human evolution is actually a very low probability path. He argues that something very exceptional happened in us. I'm inclined to agree, but it will probably take another 20 years (minimum) of scientific work to really resolve some of the most important and central questions. Honestly, this is so hard to resolve we may not have a definitive answer in our lifetimes. ========== Respectfully, on another point, I've read several of your pots. I see an important possible misunderstanding you have about biology. I notice you keep pointing to splicing and timing differences as the key to resolve all this, as if this has the code that explains why we are so different. And it seems like you assume that most of the changes you see there are relevant. There a couple problems with this notion. First, for the most part (epigenetics aside for a moment) genetic expression timing and splicing is correctly understood as a "phenotype," a product of the genetic code. It is just a precise way of measuring the final differences between chimps and humans. All the information for these changes, though, are encoded in the DNA. Second, most of these changes are probably irrelevant. This is the very non-intuitive part of biology. Whenever we measure differences, in biology, usually the vast majority of observed differences are irrelevant. How do we know what is relevant? Usually we have to do very careful genetic experiments to figure this out. With humans we can't do this. So instead we look for how alterations correlate with disease and other phenotypes. This is a slow hard slog, and we barely know the answer here because the field is so new. We do think, however, that this does not appear to be a dominant effect. Copy number variation is very common (and it is very similar to the effect of transposons, and even more common). We do see effect in disease, but is not as strong as some expected. Splicing variation only vary rarely causes disease (but that might be because we only recently have tools to look for it). Of course, as we study this more, many of these differences will be important. But the usual pattern in biology is that the vast majority will not be important. It is non-intuitive, I know, but that is the usual pattern. Any way, I hope that is helpful.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
May 17, 2016
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Prof Swamidass The argument for design in my assessment of it, is clearly demonstrated in the controls, checks, balances, trade-off's in the living cell. The question I always ask is this..... How did an unguided process (Darwinian evolution) create guided processes to prevent unguided processes (Darwinian evolution) from happening? Also I am a biblical literalist and I accept the following explanation Genesis 2:7: "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being" The Creator of the universe got His hands dirty, bent a knee, to pickup mud and form you from the materials. This physical creative act sets man apart from anything else in creation.Andre
May 17, 2016
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Welcome Prof Swamidass,
[b] Methodology is important. SETI works entirely different then ID. ID is a different methodology than science.
I'm not sure what ID arguments you intended this comment to encompass, but we can be sure it doesn't encompass all of them. SETI's methodology uses an operational definition of intelligence based on a measurable artifact of intelligence. The exact same methodology is available to ID, and is valid for the same reasons. Your comment is mistaken.Upright BiPed
May 17, 2016
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